EPTGeneral nutrition recommendations - Page 33
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
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Gendi2545
South Africa50 Posts
On August 26 2012 21:25 eshlow wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 26 2012 17:41 Gendi2545 wrote: These are the main things that I have problems with: 1) Eating to excess (i.e. when not hungry) to gain muscle. If the body is overloaded with food, it struggles to digest it properly, especially if the food is not part of a natural human diet. Not only does this mean you don't gain the full nutrition from the food, it also tires you out as the body needs to direct more energy to digestion/detoxification. When your body needs food it will let you know. 2) Eating anything other than (raw) fruit, egg yolks, fish, nuts and healthy oils. Processed foods (protein shakes, pasta, anything cooked) and many raw foods are not a natural part of human diet and contain harmful/adulterated substances. The natural human diet is perfectly sufficient for developing strong muscles and losing weight (think gorillas/chimps/Hunza tribe). Vegetables: They're unneccessary and somewhat harmful. This was a surprise to me too, but it makes sense when you think about it. Wild humans obviously much prefer sweet fruits to raw, unsweet beetroot, lettuce, cauliflower etc., so they aren't really a food humans are designed to digest. "There is not a single nutrient in vegetables or cereals that fruits do not contain." (Source) "One of the other amazing realizations is that we do not need to eat vegetables, grains and/or beans. They contain substances which inhibit digestion and/or are toxic." (Source) I'm not disputing that some fibre is good, but the right amount of fibre we need is found in fruits and other parts of a proper diet. Vegetables have too much of it. Too much fibre ages the colon and actually encourages cancer over time (Source) Cooking does make things more bioavailable in some cases, breaking cell walls and converting starch to sugar or whatever, but it also creates harmful substances (Source), destroys many fragile nutrients and allows humans to eat things that they are not designed to eat, with consequent problems. Why not just eat things that taste great raw? In short my argument would be this: Humans are naturally powerful, healthy and long-lived on a natural diet (see e.g. Hunza), it all goes to hell when they start eating processed and unnatural foods (Hunzas later on) so it's always best to eat a natural diet, i.e. whatever tastes good raw (fruit, sashimi etc.). 1. Eating to excess I would agree with. To force anabolism for muscle is debatable I would say -- the body has counteraction measures to maintain energy balance where it ups metabolism slightly with increased in calories. Overriding the system isn't necessarily a good or bad thing though, but in general if you're looking for longevity you'd want to generally eat less calories and be lighter it's true. 2. I agree with eliminating processed foods like pasta, etc. I do not agree with eliminating cooking altogether. Cooking eggs, meat, fish, increases the bioavailability of the nutrients within the food to be absorbed better by humans. Generally speaking, I go a step further than you because it's no coincidence that the advent of cooking/fire is correleted with the increasing brain mass of homo sapiens. Cooking indeed does destroy some micro-nutrients but it makes others much more available. So there's tradeoffs to everything I guess. 3. The only source for vegetables being harmful I saw in the link you provided is on nitrates in vegetables and N-nitrosocompounds. He/she doesn't provide a study on this particular topic but just connects teh dots... I don't know if there are any currently, but this review looks at it: http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/1/11.full It would be interesting to see if there's more data in the future. But generally speaking, it seems the evidence is weak so far. I took a look at the links, I'm no research expert but I guess from the rat experiments that nitrate isn't that dangerous. I'm still wary about vegetables though for the following reasons: 1) The FDA simply cannot be trusted. It's even been proven in court that they work for big pharma (and anyone else with money). 2) The healthiest tribes in the world did very well with eating few vegetables. 3) Humans aren't well-designed physiologically for digesting vegetables (no heavy teeth/large bellies etc. like cows, horses). 4) I've inadvertently performed my own tests on animals. A few years ago I kept guinea pigs and rabbits as pets, and several times I left a nice carrot in their pen. They sniffed it once or twice then totally ignored it for days until I removed it. It's been well documented that such animals can smell if food is good or bad (e.g. Soil Fertility And Animal Health by William Albrecht, available online) and if even natural vegetable-lovers won't eat supermarket vegetables, it's probably best for frugivore-omnivores like humans to avoid them too. On August 29 2012 11:14 JingleHell wrote: Gendi and Eshlow mostly agree on the foods, just not on prep. I personally prefer cooked foods. I don't think anybody except nymphawhatsis understands what nymphawhatsis is saying, because it's either unwarranted attacks on Eshlow, or involves arguing against things that, as far as I can tell, nobody actually said. We're actually disagreeing on quite a bit. As usual it's up to you to look up both sides of the argument and make your own decisions. It seems to me that the perfect diet consists of only edible fruit, good oils (e.g. olive/coconut), raw egg yolks and raw fish (must be quality fish/eggs though to eat raw, molecular distilled omega fish oils probably the best bet). Tree nuts are optional, no milk, no meat, no cooking. It's a good idea to combine the foods properly, e.g. don't eat protein with most fruits. This is based on the diets of the healthiest primitive tribes, and some scientific research which is a bit more contentious. I've also tested it on myself, when I stay clean of processed foods (including milk, meat) for a week or so I feel much better and the fat melts off. If you want to feel a really quick improvement in 2-3 days, eat a light supper, skip breakfast, then eat only non-starchy, -fatty, -proteinaceous fruits (e.g. apples/oranges/papayas, not bananas/avos) for a few days. Don't mix the fruits, eat them at separate meals. This is what really got me interested in the effects of proper nutrition. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
Diabetes? Don't overdo the carbs. Crohn's and other forms of IBD and Colitis? Avoid complex carbs, keep lactose light, and avoid most fiber. Gluten intolerance, hope you like eggs and meat. I'm sure Eshlow could expand upon this list quite nicely. You can talk all you want about heart disease, but the fact is, I've seen so much conflicting shit about that that it isn't even funny. I'm personally going to go with the diet that doesn't kill me with my Crohn's, and I'll worry about my heart when it starts giving me trouble. Funny story, the only bad result I've ever had on a cholesterol test was the time it was too low. The worst blood pressure I've ever had was when it was too low. Eggs and bacon are doing a shit job of killing me, IMO. Gendi: I was trying to simplify, since that's what the guy asked for. And I'll just keep cooking my food. Easier to digest = good, less bacteria = really good. One of those Crohn's things. | ||
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solidbebe
Netherlands4921 Posts
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
On August 30 2012 06:09 solidbebe wrote: I thought the whole 'eggs raise your bad cholesterol level which is bad' had been debunked already anyways? People believe all kinds of things. The trouble is conflicting sciencey sounding stuff, so people have to decide which to believe, which they generally do based on personal preference or convenience, rather than critical thought or expedience. Me, for example, I pick based off of the stuff I just mentioned, plus the fact that I really don't have a choice unless I want to starve to death. I consider that a practical application of critical thought, where most available literature overcomplicates the issues. | ||
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Hanakurena
105 Posts
A plant based diet has been shown to lower the cholesterol of people suffering from CHD to very low levels. Both eating a diet rich in fat and a diet containing dietary cholesterol will increase your LDL cholesterol. And one meal is all you need to raise your natural levels. A paelo diet will elevate your LDL levels. What paleo people do is either deny it or claim it isn't a problem anyway. One egg won't kill you obviously. But why trick people into thinking eating a bacon & eggs breakfast is actually healthy? And no bacon & eggs won't kill you today. But just look around you at people who have cardiovascular disease. If you truly eat a very high cholesterol diet, get your LDL checked. It can't be too low as you think it can be. Also if your HDL is too low you are eating too much satured fat. Eat more fiber-rich foods and some grains and legumes instead. They help raise HDL. BTW, a carb-based diet cures you from type II diabetes. Just read the segment on diet on the wiki page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifestyle_causes_of_diabetes_mellitus_type_2 Only reason why sugars may affect diabetes in studies is indirectly by causing obesity. Diabetes is caused by fat, not by carbs. Well if you believe mainstream science that is. You see conflicting stuff because you surf on strange sites that either deliberately lie or cherry pick studies or that do straight out pseudo science. If you believe organizations like the USDA are affected by pharma money, it is to be too mild on fat and animal protein rather than the other way around. Not to mention that fruits and grains are low on the glycemic index anyway. What you don't want is white dough coated with sugar and butter. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
decreasing consumption of saturated fats and trans fatty acids while replacing them with unsaturated fats may decrease the risk That doesn't say eat carbs. That says eat different fats. And seriously, my heart is fine. My cholesterol levels are low, my blood pressure is low, neither has ever been called high by a medical professional, and I eat tons and tons of saturated fats and eggs. They're delicious, and they have yet to kill me. Whereas, if I tried to eat the vegan shit you seem to be touting, I'd die in a month, because of one of those points I already raised that you ignored, probably due to having no response. | ||
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eshlow
United States5210 Posts
yeah, it seems so that we disagreed on more than I thought. Oh well. I guess we shall agree to disagree @ Hanakurena Sigh. If only people ever read the science in the OP. LDL-cholesterol is split into multiple sub types. ApoA is healthy and big and fluffy, ApoB is the oxidized small form of LDL which is bad. Paleo diet increases LDL cholesterol, the fluffly big type. Not ApoB which is proven to cause CVD. ApoB increases with the amount of refined carbohydrates in the diet. For the last damn time on eggs and cholesterol... EGGS are HEALTHY even the yolk So going back to specifically something like eggs which have a bunch of cholesterol and fat in them: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22037012 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20683785 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18991244 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21776466 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19369056 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21134328 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15164336 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18991244 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18203890 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17531457 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16340654 In the same line this is why whole milk is healthier than skim milk: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/12/dairy-fat-and-diabetes.html http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16904009 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20372173 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17925824 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11350992 Another interesting article that was ahead of its time: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002934396004561 When you eliminate refined carbohydrates from a diet, and give people 15% saturated fat and 3-4 eggs per day you get this: Effect of a high saturated fat and no-starch diet on serum lipid subfractions in patients with documented atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14601690 RESULTS: In patients with atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease, mean +/- SD total body weight (TBW) decreased 5.2%+/-2.5% (P<.001) as did body fat percentage (P=.02). Nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopic analysis of lipids showed decreases in total triglycerides (P<.001), very low-density lipoprotein (VLDL) triglycerides (P<.001), VLDL size (P<.001), large VLDL concentration (P<.001), and medium VLDL concentration (P<.001). High-density lipoprotein (HDL) and LDL concentrations were unchanged, but HDL size (P=.01) and LDL size (P=.02) increased. Patients with polycystic ovary syndrome lost 14.3%+/-20.3% of TBW (P=.008) and patients with reactive hypoglycemia lost 19.9%+/-8.7% of TBW (P<.001) at 24 and 52 weeks, respectively, without adverse effects on serum lipids. CONCLUSION: An HSF-SA diet results in weight loss after 6 weeks without adverse effects on serum lipid levels verified by nuclear magnetic resonance, and further weight loss with a lipid-neutral effect may persist for up to 52 weeks. Yes, the patients with KNOWN cardiovascular disease got healthier, decreased triglycerides, increase LDL size, HDL numbers, decreased reactive hypoclyemia, etc. All markers of lipids indicate they got healthier. And LOL at fat causing diabetes. That's quite possibly the dumbest thing I've heard in this thread. None of those studies looked at carbohydrate intake and compared it wtih fat intake, which is obviously a confounding factor which you can see illustrated in the study above. Did you know that saturated fat intake intake hasn't risen in the past 100 years? ![[image loading]](http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/3027/fatcw.png) Why is it that US obesity rates, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, metabolic syndrome, etc are still climbing then? If anything, it's the mono and poly unsaturated fats that are increasing and causing these (which it's obviously not... but that's how absurd the whole thing is). Refined carbohydrates are the problem, along with increase in calorie intake, trans fats, O3:O6 imbalance may have a role to play, and of course the evidence shows me that grains are causing tons of issues too. Those are the 5 horsemen of the obesity apocalypse. Anyway I'm done with this garbage. All of the science above and more is in the OP in the spoiler at the bottom so people can feel free to believe what they want. But the evidence is pretty clear if you dig beneath the the FDA and USDA and lobbyists. F me I keep getting suckered into these stupid internet debates with people who can't present a scientific argument. For real I'm done. | ||
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JingleHell
United States11308 Posts
But don't worry, I got some carbs and fruit too, for anyone concerned about my health. A cherry lemon coke, to stave off diabetes! | ||
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
On August 29 2012 23:05 Hanakurena wrote: The paleo diet is a fad diet. It is popular because it tells people certain foods people love to eat are healthy. At the same time it tells people to cut out a pretty meaningless food group just for the sake of appearing to be a very specific diet. A bit like religious have very intricate regulations for diet as well. Makes them look like they know what they are talking about. If you get a large part of actual calories from fruits and real vegetables, you probably have a decent to good diet, whatever label you put onto it. But we all love to eat something that is bad. If you force yourself not to eat whole grain bread and then feel like you did such a good job not eating all those 'bad foods' so you can cheat a little and eat some dairy/cheese/icecream, then that is just terrible. Paleo diet promotes cheating on your diet. Paleo diet apparently is so good, you cna get away with cheating. Just go to the blogs of the paleo people and see what they eat. Coffee, protein bars, dairy, bread, etc. Then paleo diet promotes extremely unhealthy diets like bacon&eggs while telling you you can't eat whole grain bread for breakfast. Sugars aren't bad. They are actually very good as they are the fuel our body 'likes' using the most. We evolved to fuel ourselves with carbs/sugar/starches. As for getting fat on them, I highly doubt fat people would not loss weight when they could somehow force themselves to be on a good 80/10/10 diet. Fat people love their animal protein and high fat diet. They don't get fat on potatos. They get fat because of the grease, oil, cream, cheese they put on top of it. Besides eating eggs, what else do you think is wrong with my diet and why? And what else should I be eating instead? Again, here it is, copy and apsted from my previous post. Just curious because I don't know too much about nutrition. various meats and fish eggs vegetables (broccoli, cailiflower, carrots, squash/zucchini, chinese veggies like bokchoy and others, spinach) some grains like rice and 12-grain bread fruits (mostly bananas, apples, berries that i stick into a blender and drink) almonds and sunflower seeds for snacks (im allergic to other tree nuts) milk water sometimes fruit juices or tea occasional meal out at a restaurant, though i try to stick to non-processed foods edit - i still think it's super weird that some people here think eggs are bad for you. all of the studies presented here in the last few pages makes me think it'd be ridiculous to believe that eggs are bad for you. | ||
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Hanakurena
105 Posts
Just put "dietary cholesterol" in Eshlow's http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/ site and you find plenty of studies that say the opposite of what the studies he cherry picked say. Then try to find the consensus dietary scientists have and they still support the notion that consuming dietary cholesterol is bad and increases LDL and is bad for your vascular system. http://www.atherosclerosis-journal.com/article/S0021-9150(12)00504-7/abstract http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2188265/Eating-egg-yolks-bad-smoking-speeding-coronary-artery-disease.html ieatkids5, it kinda depends on from what you get most of your calories. If you get most of your calories from animal protein and fat then it doesn't really matter how varied the vegetables and fruits you eat alongside them are. Try to eat as many vegetables and fruits you can. High carb foods like whole grain bread, rice and potato are fine. Just stay low on the butter, cheese and oil you might use to prepare them. If you eat high fiber high water content you will eat more filling foods and you wil satisfied earlier. So low fat, not drinking liquid calories and especially in the US avoid processed foods. If consuming animal protein puts you at a higher risk of cancer is stilll badly understood and therefore controversial. Especially because there is a lot of money behind the meat and diary industry. Large statistical studies seem to show a strong link, but the mechanism is still not well understood. But I would still advice to only eat a little bit of fish or seafruit once or twice a week and red meat or chicken only at special occasions when it is just too hard to avoid and you don't want to go vegetarian. Eggs should also be limited as much as possible. And when you do make an omelet, see if you can throw out a yolk because there is where all the cholesterol is. And don't listen to Eshlow. He has all kinds of conspiracy theories where grains and rice cause Alzheimers and where he cherry picks studies to trick you into eating unhealthy. The studies are real but it's just hard to pin down what is true or not. Eshlow doesn't understand this despite his claim to have a degree. He will soon come with evidence that undermines that one study I posted. Why doesn't he come with arguments that point out the weak points in his studies and why did he ignore all the studies that say the opposite? When talking about eggs it is hard to figure out if it is the fat or the cholesterol that is doing the harm. But going back to the bacon & eggs, the bacon is clearly and undisputedly worse. Maybe Eshlow will now come with some site that says it is good for you, like this one: http://bacontoday.com/top-10-reasons-bacon-is-actually-healthy-for-you/ But maybe he should go to some conventions and convince the scientists there. But out of all the breakfasts you can have, bacon & eggs will just score very low health wise if you ask to 1000 nutritionists to rate it. On August 30 2012 09:05 GoTuNk! wrote: Since eshlow provided the science, I'm just gonna say someone that doesn't eat meat will most likely never squat twice his bodyweight. wut? | ||
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SoleSteeler
Canada5472 Posts
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
On August 30 2012 21:17 SoleSteeler wrote: Your diet is perfectly fine, ieatkids5. I say keep eating what you're eating. i know, i just wanted to hear some other people's thoughts and reasoning behind them to get a better idea about why they're saying what they say. | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
Edit: Has anyone tried roasted chickpeas (garbanzo beans)? Just let them dry, and bake with olive oil and whatever seasoning you want and its delicious. | ||
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rEiGN~
369 Posts
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
 , but that's completely okay if you aren't lifting heavy), it basically boils down to processed vs non-processed food.If it is found in nature, eat it... One of these days, I'm going to grow myself a whiskey tree | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
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rEiGN~
369 Posts
On September 02 2012 01:16 Snuggles wrote: Hey guys does any one know exactly how bad it is to drink alcohol when you're trying to build muscle? Is it so severe that you shouldn't go to parties at all or enjoy that 1 beer at the bar with a few friends? http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth-about-alcohol-fat-loss-and-muscle.html life is meant to be enjoyed | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
On September 02 2012 01:26 rEiGN~ wrote: http://www.leangains.com/2010/07/truth-about-alcohol-fat-loss-and-muscle.html life is meant to be enjoyed This makes me so happy :D thank you! | ||
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