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yamato77
11589 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
I mean, if you want a famous example that's pretty much what happened to Mickael Jackson. And he's saying that because there could certainly be opportunists amongst all the plaintiffs, yes it's important to take the time and procedure and weed them from the legitimate testimonies. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On November 10 2017 21:20 Alaric wrote: He's saying "do you believe there are absolutely 0 opportunists in that whole situation?" not that it's only opportunists, there's a difference. I mean, if you want a famous example that's pretty much what happened to Mickael Jackson. And he's saying that because there could certainly be opportunists amongst all the plaintiffs, yes it's important to take the time and procedure and weed them from the legitimate testimonies. See I understand that, but it's used to widely discredit all allegations. It's a blanket response, a feature of the same sort of culture that discourages women from speaking out at all about the sexual harassment or assault they have fallen victim to. Maybe nafta is using it here In Good Faith (TM) but it's also used in bad faith all the time and it's depressing to see it pop up in a community I am a part of. It's fine to believe in due process of law, but that doesn't really apply to my opinion of a person. I err on the side of believing the claims made by these women (and men as well in Spacey's case), precisely because of all of the factors that make them accusing these powerful men a risky endeavor. If it turns out that some of the accusations were false, then I'll reconsider my opinion. As it stands, I think the number of false accusations is so low as to not factor in to my evaluation of the situation. | ||
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Dandel Ion
Austria17960 Posts
nice to see such upstanding members of the community | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On November 10 2017 22:09 Dandel Ion wrote: so instead you widely discredit anyone mentioning it nice to see such upstanding members of the community I'm attacking the argument, not the person. I even give nafta the benefit of the doubt. I don't know him, I'm not assuming he's a misogynist. I'm just explaining how his argument is misused for nefarious deeds. I'm also explaining why I personally don't need to see these accusations go through the courts to form an opinion on the people being accused. You're free to disagree with me, but I'm not being unreasonable. | ||
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AlterKot
Poland7525 Posts
Unlucky. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On the other hand due process is an important piece of law. Assuming everyone is guilty from the start is not something you want regardless of the nature of the crime they are accused of. This is where we need to find a middle ground. Taking the victim seriously and putting forward all the due process required while still not judging the perpetrator as guilty until due process has been dealt with. The final real tricky part is how bad the court and police systems around the world have been when dealing with this type of crime. Victims are often scoffed at or even told they are the ones at fault which means due process was never actually carried out. This makes it hard for people to really trust the system and instead rely on the public opinion court. It's really important that these people in Hollywood actually get tried and found guilty of crimes if they are guilty. It'll do a lot to help restore faith in the system. ps: Let's just chill a bit with the personal attacks here. I know it's a touchy subject which means it's even more important to keep the discussion civil. Nothing comes from people being heated. Text is a very imperfect medium. There are difficult cultures and people in this discussion which can lead to misunderstandings. | ||
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red_
United States8474 Posts
Battlefront does come out next week so there's some incentive to have the build picked and shipping by next week but at the same time a couple weeks of not playing it on release won't kill me(gonna be gone all thanksgiving weekend out of town anyways) | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On November 10 2017 22:14 yamato77 wrote: I'm attacking the argument, not the person. I even give nafta the benefit of the doubt. I don't know him, I'm not assuming he's a misogynist. I'm just explaining how his argument is misused for nefarious deeds. I'm also explaining why I personally don't need to see these accusations go through the courts to form an opinion on the people being accused. You're free to disagree with me, but I'm not being unreasonable. I don't really see why would it matter if you think I am a misogynist when it comes to what I said lol. As I am sure you have heard: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" I feel like a lot of people on both sides are just taking personal experience too much in the equation. I had a girl make such claims with literally 0 proof and having to actually deal with the treatment I got from some people was extremely unpleasant. Obviously nothing from the law but I can imagine how bad it can get for people who aren't teenagers and this can actually cost them things.... Obviously having evidence for this stuff is extremely difficult and women do get abused because of it which is unfortunate. However we can't just "listen and believe". | ||
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On November 11 2017 00:43 nafta wrote: I don't really see why would it matter if you think I am a misogynist when it comes to what I said lol. As I am sure you have heard: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" I feel like a lot of people on both sides are just taking personal experience too much in the equation. I had a girl make such claims with literally 0 proof and having to actually deal with the treatment I got from some people was extremely unpleasant. Obviously nothing from the law but I can imagine how bad it can get for people who aren't teenagers and this can actually cost them things.... Obviously having evidence for this stuff is extremely difficult and women do get abused because of it which is unfortunate. However we can't just "listen and believe". While it's important to take claims seriously, all you have to do is google "fake rape accusations" to see how just the publicity of it can ruin someone's life. However, that said, if multiple people are coming forward, it's much less likely that all of them are lying. And I have much less sympathy for hollywood stars who are accused than a regular person dealing with it. | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On November 11 2017 00:43 nafta wrote: I don't really see why would it matter if you think I am a misogynist when it comes to what I said lol. As I am sure you have heard: "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" I feel like a lot of people on both sides are just taking personal experience too much in the equation. I had a girl make such claims with literally 0 proof and having to actually deal with the treatment I got from some people was extremely unpleasant. Obviously nothing from the law but I can imagine how bad it can get for people who aren't teenagers and this can actually cost them things.... Obviously having evidence for this stuff is extremely difficult and women do get abused because of it which is unfortunate. However we can't just "listen and believe". A personal statement is evidence. Yes, people lie. Yes, some women (the most generous figures in criminal statistics I could find say 10%, more studies have the figures much lower) lie about being assaulted. No, that does not mean that the large-scale revelations about the pervasive sexual harassment, misconduct, and assault that occurred before and still occurs now within Hollywood should be distrusted on the basis of the possibility that some of these women have the capability of lying. Especially when it pertains to Louis C.K.; the number of accusers, the legitimacy of the institution that published the report (the New York Times), and the enduring nature of the rumors of his misconduct over a period of many years are all factors that make it extremely unlikely that he is simply being smeared by women with ulterior motives. You may choose to reserve judgment in these cases, and that's your prerogative, but I think that it's reasonable to believe that these allegations are true. Obviously not all of the allegations are as substantial as the ones against C.K., or Spacey, or Weinstein, but the individual nuances of each case can be examined as an outside party. I'm not saying I believe every single instance simply on the basis of personal testimony, but I certainly do err on that side, and until the culture and the institutions of my society change, I think I have to. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On November 11 2017 01:02 Requizen wrote: While it's important to take claims seriously, all you have to do is google "fake rape accusations" to see how just the publicity of it can ruin someone's life. However, that said, if multiple people are coming forward, it's much less likely that all of them are lying. And I have much less sympathy for hollywood stars who are accused than a regular person dealing with it. I dunno. Nowadays you really don't need much. Some of the ones I saw were literally of the type "10 years ago me and x were in a room and it was just the 2 of us". At that point if enough people have a bone to pick with you it can get out of hand real fast. The way a lot of the media handles this shit is probably the biggest problem however. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On November 11 2017 00:05 red_ wrote: So side stepping this conversation because ya... I haven't price checked PC parts/sales trends in forever, should I still be waiting for Black Friday/weekend deals or do the 'sales of the day' type shit on amazon and newegg and whatnot dip low enough that I should just start picking things out now? Battlefront does come out next week so there's some incentive to have the build picked and shipping by next week but at the same time a couple weeks of not playing it on release won't kill me(gonna be gone all thanksgiving weekend out of town anyways) I've been keeping tabs on http://www.logicalincrements.com/ I've been waiting for a convenient time to be home to receive all the shipments, but at this point I may be looking at grabbing the Black Friday holiday deals. Not sure if Logical Increments will be updated for Black Friday, but I'll be looking to build something in the Enthusiast - Extremist range. While I want some high processing power for actual personal work (GIS), I'm aiming for a solid VR capable rig. I might actually start playing Elite Dangerous again for it. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
SEE: Poring over every minute detail of the life of a shooter/serial killer after a tragedy, which is proven to encourage copycats. | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
On November 11 2017 01:18 yamato77 wrote: A personal statement is evidence. Yes, people lie. Yes, some women (the most generous figures in criminal statistics I could find say 10%, more studies have the figures much lower) lie about being assaulted. No, that does not mean that the large-scale revelations about the pervasive sexual harassment, misconduct, and assault that occurred before and still occurs now within Hollywood should be distrusted on the basis of the possibility that some of these women have the capability of lying. Especially when it pertains to Louis C.K.; the number of accusers, the legitimacy of the institution that published the report (the New York Times), and the enduring nature of the rumors of his misconduct over a period of many years are all factors that make it extremely unlikely that he is simply being smeared by women with ulterior motives. You may choose to reserve judgment in these cases, and that's your prerogative, but I think that it's reasonable to believe that these allegations are true. Obviously not all of the allegations are as substantial as the ones against C.K., or Spacey, or Weinstein, but the individual nuances of each case can be examined as an outside party. I'm not saying I believe every single instance simply on the basis of personal testimony, but I certainly do err on that side, and until the culture and the institutions of my society change, I think I have to. These 10% figures are stupid. Truth is you can never know what happens behind closed doors. Even video footage is so easy to manipulate nowadays and human memory is just not reliable. Btw I agree with you that most of these people are probably guilty and I am no fan of Hollywood. I just really dislike witch hunts and things like this tend to regularly turn into one. Also I am not really gonna go into it but you can't really rely on any news publications nowadays. Seems like profits from people who want to hear their opinion said by someone else is significantly more important than the truth. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
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Requizen
United States33802 Posts
On November 11 2017 01:59 Holyflare wrote: Hahaha I can tell you that probably 99% of the accusations that get anywhere near police intervention are probably legitimate. That is of course true. But people are saying that you don't need police intervention, just a public accusation and it can follow you for the rest of your life. Gossip and rumors can kill a career or relationships even if the government isn't involved in any way. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
It stems from a lack of talking about it and the taboo. If more schools had sexual health classes that weren't shit and talked about abuse throughly then things would be so much easier in terms of evidence gathering. | ||
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
It's fucking sad. | ||
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