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On July 04 2014 11:24 wei2coolman wrote:
Well at 20, you can be like "there's my college fund, time to get a stable career now".
I mean he's 17. and he'll be invited back to TI5, and EG will offer him a bigger contract for helping get the franchise on top of dota. could he really turn down that money to go to college and do something other than dota when he could play dota for those 4-5 years and then go to college with even more money?
people will only retire if they value their personal lives more than their professional ones, same as any career, OR if the future prospects for them earning money are not good. with the invitation to the next at minimum 1.6 million dollar prizepool tournament and a guaranteed contract for more income i can't see an TI winner retire until they were extending their career past where they wanted it to go in order to attempt a win at he biggest tournament and were going to retire anyway.
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On July 04 2014 11:19 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 11:03 red_ wrote:On July 04 2014 10:51 MoonBear wrote:
It's interesting that Valve is in a position where they're almost being undermined by their success at this point. It's not just that being able to remotely match the prize pool next will be difficult (although possible). Like Yango mentioned there's a potential problem where if people start to see their career model as basically Get to International, win, retire" rather than continuous competition. It's not like sports where prize money is a small component of income (e.g. sponsorship deals, advertising, salaries, etc.)
There's also a problem where there's a lot of money being sloshed around for the tournament but a lot of satellite part of the eSports industry like journalism still aren't at the point many would wish it were at.
From Valve's perspective, what do they do from here? Clearly this is a cash cow of outrageous proportions. Do they go full Riot and evolve from a game publisher and online retailer and expand into broadcast entertainment themselves? Do they just let the money come in and use it to finance their ambitions to expand into hardware development? A lot of people criticised Riot as being a company flush with money and not knowing what best to do and I wonder if Valve has plans for what has clearly far exceeded expectations considering how ridiculous the stretch goals have gone. Tennis and Golf are almost entirely tournament payouts are they not(exceptional players aside, only a very very select few are making their money on endorsements like Tiger and Federer and whatnot)? I'm pretty sure they do alright, and nobody complained that Tiger Woods made PGA's payouts so high that people could retire after winning a major. The pro golf scene is also absolutely fucking abysmal. Also winning a PGA with the payout, also opens you up to make more money from sponsorship that dwarfs what you make from tourney winnings. Also, for tennis, last 32 of 35 majors were won by Nadal/Federer/Djokavic/Murray. No namers winning is pretty much impossible. Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 11:04 PrinceXizor wrote:
I don't think there is example in history of an industry or scene falling apart because the people involved made too much money. I dunno if anyone claimed the scene or industry would fall apart, but that it would not be better off cuz of it. Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 11:16 Cixah wrote:On July 04 2014 11:13 MoonBear wrote:On July 04 2014 11:03 red_ wrote:On July 04 2014 10:51 MoonBear wrote:
It's interesting that Valve is in a position where they're almost being undermined by their success at this point. It's not just that being able to remotely match the prize pool next will be difficult (although possible). Like Yango mentioned there's a potential problem where if people start to see their career model as basically Get to International, win, retire" rather than continuous competition. It's not like sports where prize money is a small component of income (e.g. sponsorship deals, advertising, salaries, etc.)
There's also a problem where there's a lot of money being sloshed around for the tournament but a lot of satellite part of the eSports industry like journalism still aren't at the point many would wish it were at.
From Valve's perspective, what do they do from here? Clearly this is a cash cow of outrageous proportions. Do they go full Riot and evolve from a game publisher and online retailer and expand into broadcast entertainment themselves? Do they just let the money come in and use it to finance their ambitions to expand into hardware development? A lot of people criticised Riot as being a company flush with money and not knowing what best to do and I wonder if Valve has plans for what has clearly far exceeded expectations considering how ridiculous the stretch goals have gone. Tennis and Golf are almost entirely tournament payouts are they not(exceptional players aside, only a very very select few are making their money on endorsements like Tiger and Federer and whatnot)? I'm pretty sure they do alright, and nobody complained that Tiger Woods made PGA's payouts so high that people could retire after winning a major. Perhaps it shows how little I know about those two sports, but most of the names that come up have at least some sponsorship deal. I also don't know if these sports fall under the kinds of programs many countries have to subsidise sports either. Also I'd have thought that winning leads to publicity which leads to endorsement deals which would then become a large component of income, rather than prize money alone? So you're not beholden to the volatility of only earning prize money income the way, say, an MtG grinder is. On July 04 2014 11:04 PrinceXizor wrote:
I don't think there is example in history of an industry or scene falling apart because the people involved made too much money. Probably not lol. Was more thinking that if the motivation of people is only to bust through The International it's going to be a weird. Don't get me wrong, I think it's good we get to discuss this rather than TI4 funding having been terrible or "only" meet its goals. Still, I'm fairly cautious about the future. Typically when things blow all expectations, figuring out the "ok where do we go from here then?" part is often the hardest next step and what trips people up the most. I'm not too worried about where we go from here. If there is one thing valve loves it is money. After raking in ~40m dollars in less than 3 months I'd be willing to bet they are going to be more willing to devote more time and energy to this. Plus Valve's employees have shown how much they want to help this community (Who, ultimately are the people who will let this live or die, See the Valve Employee Handbook.) Whether or not valve cares about community, they just fucking made 30 million dollars in 3 months off of small bonus item that probably only cost them a couple thousand bucks to make.
The tennis 'rebuttal' is actually in my favor. So you're saying, that with big tourney payouts(and the endorsements that come with being legendary players), they still play the game and don't retire after a couple wins? Interesting.
The golf one is fine too. So the top players CLEARLY make more money(the ones that win majors or at least consistently place very well), and yet plenty more are making fantastic livings off of making cuts and getting 10s of thousands of dollars for doing so over a 4 day time period.
More money is not going to hurt the scene. It may give it unique problems to address, but it will not hurt it.
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On July 04 2014 11:12 Cixah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 11:09 Sufficiency wrote:
Hmmm now that Dolphin seems to work pretty well on my computer, what other good Gamecube/Wii game are there? There's an HD remake floating around of Metroid Prime. I think it's just the OG prime game, but you can change the render effects to max through some editing in the files via Dolphin.
I'll give it a shot, thanks!
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Gonna play some ability draft because that's my jam. People should totes get on Dota2 and play some games(I will play other game modes, but AD is my jam).
Sufficiency saving me from double post, what a guy.
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The tennis prizepool is actually minuscule compared to endorsement deals. It's only a lot of money to no namers, and those no namers never won repeat titles. Fuck if I know what happened to them. And this is coming from an avid Tennis fan.
A lot of those no namers actually retire pretty early and end up being coaches and stuff that use their pro status as a marketing tool.
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United States23745 Posts
On July 04 2014 11:12 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 11:09 Sufficiency wrote:
Hmmm now that Dolphin seems to work pretty well on my computer, what other good Gamecube/Wii game are there? Paper Mario Thousand Year Door
Great game and damn pretty.
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On July 04 2014 11:24 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 11:22 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 04 2014 11:13 MoonBear wrote:
Probably not lol. Was more thinking that if the motivation of people is only to bust through The International it's going to be a weird.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's good we get to discuss this rather than TI4 funding having been terrible or "only" meet its goals. Still, I'm fairly cautious about the future. Typically when things blow all expectations, figuring out the "ok where do we go from here then?" part is often the hardest next step and what trips people up the most. the main thought i have is, first place at TI gets an invite for the next one. if you are already on top and going to be invited to the next one, why retire if you still want to play the game. you can only make more money next year. i don't think you could win a tournament if your only motivation was the prize and not be a competitive person or like the game you play. as you get older i can see a upper 20's or 30 year old saying "i want to go out on top, this is my last tournament" and retiring after winning TI4, but i can't see say Arteezy winning TI4 before he's even 20 and deciding he's done. Well at 20, you can be like "there's my college fund, time to get a stable career now".
I just won a gaming tournament and a million dollars!
Time to go to school and study boring ass shit so I can get an even more boring desk job!
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On July 04 2014 11:33 wei2coolman wrote:
The tennis prizepool is actually minuscule compared to endorsement deals. It's only a lot of money to no namers, and those no namers never won repeat titles. Fuck if I know what happened to them. And this is coming from an avid Tennis fan.
A lot of those no namers actually retire pretty early and end up being coaches and stuff that use their pro status as a marketing tool.
But is it 'miniscule' in comparison to living wages? The point is that the scene needs to have sustainable funds(as you like to say so often) for its playerbase. I don't care if the winning, legendary players end up making VAST amounts of cash that their worse peers don't(in fact, I think that's good, it's a reward for winning, it's in a sense their motivation to not just retire on said cash). what matters is that people who place alright consistently are also making pretty decent money(and I'm fairly sure they are).
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Fzero gx is pretty fun for GC.
In foreigner SC2 and LoL its about placing well so a big team picks you up. The better the player(s) the better contract you can get. This is basically needed for 90% of the pros that aren't either winning TI or Worlds.
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On July 04 2014 11:33 kainzero wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 11:24 wei2coolman wrote:On July 04 2014 11:22 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 04 2014 11:13 MoonBear wrote:
Probably not lol. Was more thinking that if the motivation of people is only to bust through The International it's going to be a weird.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's good we get to discuss this rather than TI4 funding having been terrible or "only" meet its goals. Still, I'm fairly cautious about the future. Typically when things blow all expectations, figuring out the "ok where do we go from here then?" part is often the hardest next step and what trips people up the most. the main thought i have is, first place at TI gets an invite for the next one. if you are already on top and going to be invited to the next one, why retire if you still want to play the game. you can only make more money next year. i don't think you could win a tournament if your only motivation was the prize and not be a competitive person or like the game you play. as you get older i can see a upper 20's or 30 year old saying "i want to go out on top, this is my last tournament" and retiring after winning TI4, but i can't see say Arteezy winning TI4 before he's even 20 and deciding he's done. Well at 20, you can be like "there's my college fund, time to get a stable career now". I just won a gaming tournament and a million dollars! Time to go to school and study boring ass shit so I can get an even more boring desk job!
I'll be honest, when I got invited out to do ESGN I found out the DAY I accepted my Job Offer where I'm working now. This would have been the First ESGN production, they were flying me to Germany, paying for room, board, food, everything. I was GUARANTEED to walk away with minimum 4k in my pocket. Plus 750$ more if I won my match/matches. Having played card games, there was no promise that I would at the age of 23 (at the time) have been able to:
1. Win consistently in a game type known for RNG.
2. Once I start losing or skidding could I have enough money to hold me over until the next tournament/employment? Most likely not.
Which is why I ultimately stuck with this job and dropped off the face of the earth. Max, (Ekop's friend) had pretty similar situation. He ended up getting into several very high end schools in his country and wasn't able to commit more time playing HS vs wanting to have his "dream job".
Before this whole situation had you asked me if I would drop everything to become an e-sports player I would have said yes, but the fact of the matter is they life span of those careers is incredibly short lived and practically unfulfilling unless you can build a legacy and have a system that can back it up. I had to not do what I had always want, and take a job that keeps me more than likely less happy, but sustainable.
Just to compare me vs ek0p (for those who still follow the scene), He and I have made the exact same amount of money, based of his tournament winnings, in the past 8 months since HS took off. Only he has to live month to month off twitch subs (which for him is incredibly easy, especially now that he has the C9 sponsorship)
Looking back, I do KIND of regret my decision, but had I not made it I would just be living at home with my Bed Ridden father trying to live month to month playing video games for other peoples amusement. Where as now I live with my two best friends and don't have to answer to anyone, but my landlord whom I live with. Not to mention the fact that in a few more years I would have likely been working at subway.
As for the rtz tangent, 4k is chump change in comparison to 500k+ for first place that he stands to make from this tournament. Most people who live in the 9-5 world will say, win the tournament, get the money, and go to school to join the grind. As it is the Safe to do thing in the long run. 500k also lets you just grind it out and keep playing for that legacy I was talking about earlier, and juding by how much fun he and his team have in both streams, tournaments and together I doubt (80% sure), you'll see them retire since they enjoy what they're doing so much.
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United States47024 Posts
On July 04 2014 11:02 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 10:50 wei2coolman wrote:On July 04 2014 10:48 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 04 2014 10:46 wei2coolman wrote:On July 04 2014 10:45 Parnage wrote:
only tl could take the joy of seeing big prize tournament event ran by one of the literal bastions of good in the gaming industry and predict doom..
I'm gunna go out on a limb here and say they have a grasp on wtf they need to do to make things sustainable. gaming industry != esports industry. yeah, but icefrog has a very good grasp from everything we've seen of how to balance and cater to esports. i assume he's not being ignored by valve on how to run TI4 for his game. game balance != esports industry. valve has a better track record with their tournaments than any company except MBC and OGN.
That's not being fair to Gamefy. G-League's been running forever.
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When shit from years ago makes you want to punch a wall.
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On July 04 2014 11:33 onlywonderboy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 11:12 red_ wrote:On July 04 2014 11:09 Sufficiency wrote:
Hmmm now that Dolphin seems to work pretty well on my computer, what other good Gamecube/Wii game are there? Paper Mario Thousand Year Door Great game and damn pretty.
How can I forget that game... I always wanted to play it. Remember seeing it on TV many, many years ago and I was extremely amused by it.
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Is it possible to play wii games without a wiimote (except smash)?
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United States47024 Posts
On July 04 2014 12:08 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 11:33 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 04 2014 11:12 red_ wrote:On July 04 2014 11:09 Sufficiency wrote:
Hmmm now that Dolphin seems to work pretty well on my computer, what other good Gamecube/Wii game are there? Paper Mario Thousand Year Door Great game and damn pretty. How can I forget that game... I always wanted to play it. Remember seeing it on TV many, many years ago and I was extremely amused by it.
Did you play the original and/or SMRPG for SNES?
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On July 04 2014 12:16 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 12:08 Sufficiency wrote:On July 04 2014 11:33 onlywonderboy wrote:On July 04 2014 11:12 red_ wrote:On July 04 2014 11:09 Sufficiency wrote:
Hmmm now that Dolphin seems to work pretty well on my computer, what other good Gamecube/Wii game are there? Paper Mario Thousand Year Door Great game and damn pretty. How can I forget that game... I always wanted to play it. Remember seeing it on TV many, many years ago and I was extremely amused by it. Did you play the original and/or SMRPG for SNES?
I don't quite remember which one it was, sorry.
I am gonna try the Gamecube one (1k years door)
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On July 04 2014 12:15 Eppa! wrote:
Is it possible to play wii games without a wiimote (except smash)?
Probably not, unless, like you said, Smash, Radiant Dawn, etc. that don't use the Wii features.
EDIT: this also painfully reminded me of Dissidia Final Fantasy. That game is impossible to play on a keyboard with emulators. Sigh.
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On July 04 2014 12:15 Eppa! wrote:
Is it possible to play wii games without a wiimote (except smash)?
Varies by game. The wiimote isn't as bad as it seems.
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1k door was a fun game. If you haven't played Wind Waker or Sunshine both are good games. I am currently replaying WW and the fact that you can just browse TL or watch a Tv series during travel times makes it more bearable.
Also Majoras mask is my favourite zelda game so it worth downloading the 64 emu for it alone.
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EPT
