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On July 04 2014 10:38 TheYango wrote:
Sufficiency, they crowdfunded it last year too and it worked out fine. This year's model was just a simple extension on that--the only difference this year was point sales allowing people to contribute more than the baseline amount--which led to massive speculation on immortals.
It turns out that the battle booster alone is actually worth a decent amount of money if you play a lot(I've gotten like 25 levels and I don't play much because you Johns never want to play, and Yangostack has been scattered lately). Throw in some immortals and some couriers, and the chance that you may get BANANAS amounts of them if you predict the top6 and stuff like that... people are going to keep buying into this.
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On July 04 2014 10:46 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 10:45 Parnage wrote:
only tl could take the joy of seeing big prize tournament event ran by one of the literal bastions of good in the gaming industry and predict doom..
I'm gunna go out on a limb here and say they have a grasp on wtf they need to do to make things sustainable. gaming industry != esports industry.
yeah, but icefrog has a very good grasp from everything we've seen of how to balance and cater to esports. i assume he's not being ignored by valve on how to run TI4 for his game.
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On July 04 2014 10:46 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 10:38 TheYango wrote:
Sufficiency, they crowdfunded it last year too and it worked out fine. This year's model was just a simple extension on that--the only difference this year was point sales allowing people to contribute more than the baseline amount--which led to massive speculation on immortals. It turns out that the battle booster alone is actually worth a decent amount of money if you play a lot(I've gotten like 25 levels and I don't play much because you Johns never want to play, and Yangostack has been scattered lately). Throw in some immortals and some couriers, and the chance that you may get BANANAS amounts of them if you predict the top6 and stuff like that... people are going to keep buying into this.
I soloque daily D:
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On July 04 2014 10:49 Cixah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 10:46 red_ wrote:On July 04 2014 10:38 TheYango wrote:
Sufficiency, they crowdfunded it last year too and it worked out fine. This year's model was just a simple extension on that--the only difference this year was point sales allowing people to contribute more than the baseline amount--which led to massive speculation on immortals. It turns out that the battle booster alone is actually worth a decent amount of money if you play a lot(I've gotten like 25 levels and I don't play much because you Johns never want to play, and Yangostack has been scattered lately). Throw in some immortals and some couriers, and the chance that you may get BANANAS amounts of them if you predict the top6 and stuff like that... people are going to keep buying into this. I soloque daily D:
I open dota and pretend I want to play :>
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On July 04 2014 10:48 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 10:46 wei2coolman wrote:On July 04 2014 10:45 Parnage wrote:
only tl could take the joy of seeing big prize tournament event ran by one of the literal bastions of good in the gaming industry and predict doom..
I'm gunna go out on a limb here and say they have a grasp on wtf they need to do to make things sustainable. gaming industry != esports industry. yeah, but icefrog has a very good grasp from everything we've seen of how to balance and cater to esports. i assume he's not being ignored by valve on how to run TI4 for his game.
game balance != esports industry.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
It's interesting that Valve is in a position where they're almost being undermined by their success at this point. It's not just that being able to remotely match the prize pool next will be difficult (although possible). Like Yango mentioned there's a potential problem where if people start to see their career model as basically Get to International, win, retire" rather than continuous competition. It's not like sports where prize money is a small component of income (e.g. sponsorship deals, advertising, salaries, etc.)
There's also a problem where there's a lot of money being sloshed around for the tournament but a lot of satellite part of the eSports industry like journalism still aren't at the point many would wish it were at.
From Valve's perspective, what do they do from here? Clearly this is a cash cow of outrageous proportions. Do they go full Riot and evolve from a game publisher and online retailer and expand into broadcast entertainment themselves? Do they just let the money come in and use it to finance their ambitions to expand into hardware development? A lot of people criticised Riot as being a company flush with money and not knowing what best to do and I wonder if Valve has plans for what has clearly far exceeded expectations considering how ridiculous the stretch goals have gone.
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On July 04 2014 10:49 Nos- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 10:49 Cixah wrote:On July 04 2014 10:46 red_ wrote:On July 04 2014 10:38 TheYango wrote:
Sufficiency, they crowdfunded it last year too and it worked out fine. This year's model was just a simple extension on that--the only difference this year was point sales allowing people to contribute more than the baseline amount--which led to massive speculation on immortals. It turns out that the battle booster alone is actually worth a decent amount of money if you play a lot(I've gotten like 25 levels and I don't play much because you Johns never want to play, and Yangostack has been scattered lately). Throw in some immortals and some couriers, and the chance that you may get BANANAS amounts of them if you predict the top6 and stuff like that... people are going to keep buying into this. I soloque daily D: I open dota and pretend I want to play :>
You can't get better if you don't play. I try and just play a game of soloque MM a day. I've gone from 3k ~3 months ago to 3.8k in about 70 games. I'm almost at 100 ranked games so I'll take the net gain. It's much simpler now as I RARELY see "Non-Native English Speakers" with people I'm queing with, which has overall made me happier and less ragey at this game.
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On July 04 2014 10:50 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 10:48 PrinceXizor wrote:On July 04 2014 10:46 wei2coolman wrote:On July 04 2014 10:45 Parnage wrote:
only tl could take the joy of seeing big prize tournament event ran by one of the literal bastions of good in the gaming industry and predict doom..
I'm gunna go out on a limb here and say they have a grasp on wtf they need to do to make things sustainable. gaming industry != esports industry. yeah, but icefrog has a very good grasp from everything we've seen of how to balance and cater to esports. i assume he's not being ignored by valve on how to run TI4 for his game. game balance != esports industry.
valve has a better track record with their tournaments than any company except MBC and OGN.
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On July 04 2014 10:51 MoonBear wrote:
It's interesting that Valve is in a position where they're almost being undermined by their success at this point. It's not just that being able to remotely match the prize pool next will be difficult (although possible). Like Yango mentioned there's a potential problem where if people start to see their career model as basically Get to International, win, retire" rather than continuous competition. It's not like sports where prize money is a small component of income (e.g. sponsorship deals, advertising, salaries, etc.)
There's also a problem where there's a lot of money being sloshed around for the tournament but a lot of satellite part of the eSports industry like journalism still aren't at the point many would wish it were at.
From Valve's perspective, what do they do from here? Clearly this is a cash cow of outrageous proportions. Do they go full Riot and evolve from a game publisher and online retailer and expand into broadcast entertainment themselves? Do they just let the money come in and use it to finance their ambitions to expand into hardware development? A lot of people criticised Riot as being a company flush with money and not knowing what best to do and I wonder if Valve has plans for what has clearly far exceeded expectations considering how ridiculous the stretch goals have gone.
Tennis and Golf are almost entirely tournament payouts are they not(exceptional players aside, only a very very select few are making their money on endorsements like Tiger and Federer and whatnot)? I'm pretty sure they do alright, and nobody complained that Tiger Woods made PGA's payouts so high that people could retire after winning a major.
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I don't think there is example in history of an industry or scene falling apart because the people involved made too much money.
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Hmmm now that Dolphin seems to work pretty well on my computer, what other good Gamecube/Wii game are there?
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On July 04 2014 11:09 Sufficiency wrote:
Hmmm now that Dolphin seems to work pretty well on my computer, what other good Gamecube/Wii game are there?
Paper Mario Thousand Year Door
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I just finished my training in Dota and I must admit it's been pretty fun (except getting one shot by a 22/0 jugg wtf). I'll probably do the same thing and play one game a day instead of ranked on my smurf.
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On July 04 2014 11:09 Sufficiency wrote:
Hmmm now that Dolphin seems to work pretty well on my computer, what other good Gamecube/Wii game are there?
There's an HD remake floating around of Metroid Prime. I think it's just the OG prime game, but you can change the render effects to max through some editing in the files via Dolphin.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On July 04 2014 11:03 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 10:51 MoonBear wrote:
It's interesting that Valve is in a position where they're almost being undermined by their success at this point. It's not just that being able to remotely match the prize pool next will be difficult (although possible). Like Yango mentioned there's a potential problem where if people start to see their career model as basically Get to International, win, retire" rather than continuous competition. It's not like sports where prize money is a small component of income (e.g. sponsorship deals, advertising, salaries, etc.)
There's also a problem where there's a lot of money being sloshed around for the tournament but a lot of satellite part of the eSports industry like journalism still aren't at the point many would wish it were at.
From Valve's perspective, what do they do from here? Clearly this is a cash cow of outrageous proportions. Do they go full Riot and evolve from a game publisher and online retailer and expand into broadcast entertainment themselves? Do they just let the money come in and use it to finance their ambitions to expand into hardware development? A lot of people criticised Riot as being a company flush with money and not knowing what best to do and I wonder if Valve has plans for what has clearly far exceeded expectations considering how ridiculous the stretch goals have gone. Tennis and Golf are almost entirely tournament payouts are they not(exceptional players aside, only a very very select few are making their money on endorsements like Tiger and Federer and whatnot)? I'm pretty sure they do alright, and nobody complained that Tiger Woods made PGA's payouts so high that people could retire after winning a major.
Perhaps it shows how little I know about those two sports, but most of the names that come up have at least some sponsorship deal. I also don't know if these sports fall under the kinds of programs many countries have to subsidise sports either. Also I'd have thought that winning leads to publicity which leads to endorsement deals which would then become a large component of income, rather than prize money alone? So you're not beholden to the volatility of only earning prize money income the way, say, an MtG grinder is.
On July 04 2014 11:04 PrinceXizor wrote:
I don't think there is example in history of an industry or scene falling apart because the people involved made too much money.
Probably not lol. Was more thinking that if the motivation of people is only to bust through The International it's going to be a weird.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's good we get to discuss this rather than TI4 funding having been terrible or "only" meet its goals. Still, I'm fairly cautious about the future. Typically when things blow all expectations, figuring out the "ok where do we go from here then?" part is often the hardest next step and what trips people up the most.
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On July 04 2014 11:13 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 11:03 red_ wrote:On July 04 2014 10:51 MoonBear wrote:
It's interesting that Valve is in a position where they're almost being undermined by their success at this point. It's not just that being able to remotely match the prize pool next will be difficult (although possible). Like Yango mentioned there's a potential problem where if people start to see their career model as basically Get to International, win, retire" rather than continuous competition. It's not like sports where prize money is a small component of income (e.g. sponsorship deals, advertising, salaries, etc.)
There's also a problem where there's a lot of money being sloshed around for the tournament but a lot of satellite part of the eSports industry like journalism still aren't at the point many would wish it were at.
From Valve's perspective, what do they do from here? Clearly this is a cash cow of outrageous proportions. Do they go full Riot and evolve from a game publisher and online retailer and expand into broadcast entertainment themselves? Do they just let the money come in and use it to finance their ambitions to expand into hardware development? A lot of people criticised Riot as being a company flush with money and not knowing what best to do and I wonder if Valve has plans for what has clearly far exceeded expectations considering how ridiculous the stretch goals have gone. Tennis and Golf are almost entirely tournament payouts are they not(exceptional players aside, only a very very select few are making their money on endorsements like Tiger and Federer and whatnot)? I'm pretty sure they do alright, and nobody complained that Tiger Woods made PGA's payouts so high that people could retire after winning a major. Perhaps it shows how little I know about those two sports, but most of the names that come up have at least some sponsorship deal. I also don't know if these sports fall under the kinds of programs many countries have to subsidise sports either. Also I'd have thought that winning leads to publicity which leads to endorsement deals which would then become a large component of income, rather than prize money alone? So you're not beholden to the volatility of only earning prize money income the way, say, an MtG grinder is. Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 11:04 PrinceXizor wrote:
I don't think there is example in history of an industry or scene falling apart because the people involved made too much money. Probably not lol. Was more thinking that if the motivation of people is only to bust through The International it's going to be a weird. Don't get me wrong, I think it's good we get to discuss this rather than TI4 funding having been terrible or "only" meet its goals. Still, I'm fairly cautious about the future. Typically when things blow all expectations, figuring out the "ok where do we go from here then?" part is often the hardest next step and what trips people up the most.
I'm not too worried about where we go from here. If there is one thing valve loves it is money. After raking in ~40m dollars in less than 3 months I'd be willing to bet they are going to be more willing to devote more time and energy to this. Plus Valve's employees have shown how much they want to help this community (Who, ultimately are the people who will let this live or die, See the Valve Employee Handbook.)
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On July 04 2014 11:03 red_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 10:51 MoonBear wrote:
It's interesting that Valve is in a position where they're almost being undermined by their success at this point. It's not just that being able to remotely match the prize pool next will be difficult (although possible). Like Yango mentioned there's a potential problem where if people start to see their career model as basically Get to International, win, retire" rather than continuous competition. It's not like sports where prize money is a small component of income (e.g. sponsorship deals, advertising, salaries, etc.)
There's also a problem where there's a lot of money being sloshed around for the tournament but a lot of satellite part of the eSports industry like journalism still aren't at the point many would wish it were at.
From Valve's perspective, what do they do from here? Clearly this is a cash cow of outrageous proportions. Do they go full Riot and evolve from a game publisher and online retailer and expand into broadcast entertainment themselves? Do they just let the money come in and use it to finance their ambitions to expand into hardware development? A lot of people criticised Riot as being a company flush with money and not knowing what best to do and I wonder if Valve has plans for what has clearly far exceeded expectations considering how ridiculous the stretch goals have gone. Tennis and Golf are almost entirely tournament payouts are they not(exceptional players aside, only a very very select few are making their money on endorsements like Tiger and Federer and whatnot)? I'm pretty sure they do alright, and nobody complained that Tiger Woods made PGA's payouts so high that people could retire after winning a major.
The pro golf scene is also absolutely fucking abysmal. Also winning a PGA with the payout, also opens you up to make more money from sponsorship that dwarfs what you make from tourney winnings.
Also, for tennis, last 32 of 35 majors were won by Nadal/Federer/Djokavic/Murray. No namers winning is pretty much impossible.
On July 04 2014 11:04 PrinceXizor wrote:
I don't think there is example in history of an industry or scene falling apart because the people involved made too much money.
I dunno if anyone claimed the scene or industry would fall apart, but that it would not be better off cuz of it.
On July 04 2014 11:16 Cixah wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 11:13 MoonBear wrote:On July 04 2014 11:03 red_ wrote:On July 04 2014 10:51 MoonBear wrote:
It's interesting that Valve is in a position where they're almost being undermined by their success at this point. It's not just that being able to remotely match the prize pool next will be difficult (although possible). Like Yango mentioned there's a potential problem where if people start to see their career model as basically Get to International, win, retire" rather than continuous competition. It's not like sports where prize money is a small component of income (e.g. sponsorship deals, advertising, salaries, etc.)
There's also a problem where there's a lot of money being sloshed around for the tournament but a lot of satellite part of the eSports industry like journalism still aren't at the point many would wish it were at.
From Valve's perspective, what do they do from here? Clearly this is a cash cow of outrageous proportions. Do they go full Riot and evolve from a game publisher and online retailer and expand into broadcast entertainment themselves? Do they just let the money come in and use it to finance their ambitions to expand into hardware development? A lot of people criticised Riot as being a company flush with money and not knowing what best to do and I wonder if Valve has plans for what has clearly far exceeded expectations considering how ridiculous the stretch goals have gone. Tennis and Golf are almost entirely tournament payouts are they not(exceptional players aside, only a very very select few are making their money on endorsements like Tiger and Federer and whatnot)? I'm pretty sure they do alright, and nobody complained that Tiger Woods made PGA's payouts so high that people could retire after winning a major. Perhaps it shows how little I know about those two sports, but most of the names that come up have at least some sponsorship deal. I also don't know if these sports fall under the kinds of programs many countries have to subsidise sports either. Also I'd have thought that winning leads to publicity which leads to endorsement deals which would then become a large component of income, rather than prize money alone? So you're not beholden to the volatility of only earning prize money income the way, say, an MtG grinder is. On July 04 2014 11:04 PrinceXizor wrote:
I don't think there is example in history of an industry or scene falling apart because the people involved made too much money. Probably not lol. Was more thinking that if the motivation of people is only to bust through The International it's going to be a weird. Don't get me wrong, I think it's good we get to discuss this rather than TI4 funding having been terrible or "only" meet its goals. Still, I'm fairly cautious about the future. Typically when things blow all expectations, figuring out the "ok where do we go from here then?" part is often the hardest next step and what trips people up the most. I'm not too worried about where we go from here. If there is one thing valve loves it is money. After raking in ~40m dollars in less than 3 months I'd be willing to bet they are going to be more willing to devote more time and energy to this. Plus Valve's employees have shown how much they want to help this community (Who, ultimately are the people who will let this live or die, See the Valve Employee Handbook.)
Whether or not valve cares about community, they just fucking made 30 million dollars in 3 months off of small bonus item that probably only cost them a couple thousand bucks to make.
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On July 04 2014 11:13 MoonBear wrote:
Probably not lol. Was more thinking that if the motivation of people is only to bust through The International it's going to be a weird.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's good we get to discuss this rather than TI4 funding having been terrible or "only" meet its goals. Still, I'm fairly cautious about the future. Typically when things blow all expectations, figuring out the "ok where do we go from here then?" part is often the hardest next step and what trips people up the most.
the main thought i have is, first place at TI gets an invite for the next one. if you are already on top and going to be invited to the next one, why retire if you still want to play the game. you can only make more money next year. i don't think you could win a tournament if your only motivation was the prize and not be a competitive person or like the game you play. as you get older i can see a upper 20's or 30 year old saying "i want to go out on top, this is my last tournament" and retiring after winning TI4, but i can't see say Arteezy winning TI4 before he's even 20 and deciding he's done.
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On July 04 2014 11:22 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2014 11:13 MoonBear wrote:
Probably not lol. Was more thinking that if the motivation of people is only to bust through The International it's going to be a weird.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's good we get to discuss this rather than TI4 funding having been terrible or "only" meet its goals. Still, I'm fairly cautious about the future. Typically when things blow all expectations, figuring out the "ok where do we go from here then?" part is often the hardest next step and what trips people up the most. the main thought i have is, first place at TI gets an invite for the next one. if you are already on top and going to be invited to the next one, why retire if you still want to play the game. you can only make more money next year. i don't think you could win a tournament if your only motivation was the prize and not be a competitive person or like the game you play. as you get older i can see a upper 20's or 30 year old saying "i want to go out on top, this is my last tournament" and retiring after winning TI4, but i can't see say Arteezy winning TI4 before he's even 20 and deciding he's done.
Well at 20, you can be like "there's my college fund, time to get a stable career now".
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EPT
