Off-Topic General Discussion - Page 126

About Arya, I may not remember well (only read the book once and short on sleep atm), but is Harrenhal is such a bad situation after she "frees" it? Clegane was partly responsible for all the war crimes that occurred and that Arya is resentful for, but despite Vargo Hoat's attitude in general I don't think I remember them being cruel or threatening to the seervants/slaves?
Iirc putting it back under the "North" 's control also means that most of the prisoners are actually back to working for "their" side, as opposed to the one that burnt their houses and killed their relatives, so even though it doesn't "free" them for the moment, doesn't it make them work toward a better resolution for them (assuming Harrenhal being liberated means the North is more likely to win than otherwise)?

Her leaving makes sense, since she'd want to reunite with her family asap or at least break the news that she isn't held hostage by the Lannister anymore. I agree that the way she does it, killing the guard and with such loathing is a bad way of doing things, though. But the books never gave me the impression of indicating that Arya was wrong, or had dubious motives, and such—only that her means are getting more ruthless, which isn't exactly displayed as "wrong" in this universe.


About Jon, as I mentioned I've only read the first 2 books so far, iirc A Dance With Dragons is the 4th, and last released so far? Or something like that.
He's not exactly a Stu in that he's not always right and his abilities aren't the best around and stuff, certainly. However, he's always proficient and better than the people he competes with when it shows (though I certainly cling to details, like being annoyed my him beating his superior fair and square when asked to kill him, instead of the superior somehow going easy, for example), and when he has doubts they're often well-founded. When there's an Other awakening in the Keep he's the one to take notice of it and kill it, etc.

I agree, though, that he's not a Stu per see. Rereading what I wrote it well over the top. ô_o
He's got the path of one of the protagonists being evidently clear-cut for him, and the way he's thrown into the story doesn't help: like Arya and Daenerys, he's so far-removed from the rest of the cast and events that if he was to die at this point, his chapters would have provided information and exposition to the reader, but wouldn't have had any impact on the plot ('cept for Arya now that she's "freed" Harrenhal). It's an obvious tell that he's going to be stay alive for now, and makes all his chapters a setup for whatever his role for the story is going to be later, implying that said role will be very important to justify so much exposition. It makes me dislike it because it's basically spoon-feeding me (purposely or not) "this guy is going to be very important later", rather than making me think it, or showing it to me. It also tends to make me more criticising because if I'm to bear the guy for pretty long and have him be a big part of the story, he'd better be likable to make up for it.
He's wrong when he runs from the Keep though, before his friends catch him, and if he was a Stu then either he'd have been suggested to do it and would have refused, or when his friends catch up with him he'd have given some kind of speech that would automatically be labelled as righteous and he'd have been allowed to proceed with his flight.

That was my bad for calling him a Stu, I receive characters with this kind of self-doubt/"flaws" pretty badly, though, especially when it's written in a non-believable way (making it look like whine) or doesn't expose it for what it is (when it's intended to be whining). I felt the same way toward Harry Potter when he had his ego crisis (I think it was around the 4th book?) as it made me want to slap him in the face even harder than usual, and even though he got called out for being excessive by several characters, in the end he was never called out for the attitude itself being wrong at the core and everyone forgave him overnight (so since it's Harry his hunches are mostly right and while he shouldn't make such a fuss about people not listening to him he's right about it, wat).

On one hand I understand that Martin has to proceed this way, so Daenerys and Jon don't show up from nowhere later on and appear as Deus Ex Machina, but on the other hand it still makes for a very disconnected plot from the rest, which doesn't necessarily bring in interesting stuff (I certainly don't read their chapters for the titular characters; Jorah made me disappointed since his motive is love, though, thought he'd be interesting before that with his underlying desire of being allowed back home).