|
On July 25 2025 01:29 Promised_pain wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination. Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks. Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor. Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat Facts. I think only Clem could take out Serral right now. But even if he manages to snatch a second world title the koreaboos are still gonna draw out the "but, but, but... GSL!" card. Serral never played and never will play in GSL, which is understandable since it would be a netloss considering the peanut price pool. On the other hand, Maru's had his chances for at least eight years (or however long the world title has been up for grabs), yet has never delivered.
So Serral never having played in the GSL should be rated higher than Maru reaching 2 finals and 4 ro4s in world championships?
|
herO just straight up played really poorly compared to the competition. How is there balance discussion from this set lol
|
On July 25 2025 01:26 dysenterymd wrote:
Weird to see herO so lost in PvZ... sure, the meta has moved in favor of defensive Toss, but is aggressive Toss any weaker than it was less patch?
Maybe Zerg are just playing aggro more often and it makes his playstyle less reliable.
Ling Hydra has been the new meta for ZvP especially against Toss who want to play greedy early. And if that fails they transition into Lurker to control the map. herO get trashed by Reynor in Dallas, and Shin in RSL doing the same thing.
|
On July 25 2025 01:27 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 01:25 darklycid wrote:On July 25 2025 01:18 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Artosis comments on herO's keyboard are so funny
Looks like herO goes out 3-0 Its kinda funny, protoss is supposedly in one of its Most broken States and we get maybe 1 toss in the ro4 at Most  I think it goes back to how different balance is at the very top vs anything lower level. I do think this is one of the strongest patches for "ladder toss" ever.
At the top level I really don't think its bad for zerg at all, ladder definitely looks very different though, its tough to deal with the protoss deathball if you're below like mid grandmasters, and you also won't have the multitasking below that level to pick apart the protoss with nyduses, drops, and attacks everywhere like Serral and Reynor can
|
Northern Ireland26629 Posts
On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'.
I think the one thing they don’t overestimate is his skill level, least in terms of playing the game. He’s absolutely bonkers at it.
If we’re talking both players combined, I think the highest quality set I’ve ever seen was Maru vs Serral on Radhuset.
If Maru has a weakness, IMO he struggles to beat people who equal or even surpass his skill level at times. I think his strongest periods were when JAGW were still a thing, and maybe that helped cover it a little.
There is that contrast with Serral, even if he doesn’t necessarily 100% solve a new rival who hits his level in raw mechanical ability, he figures ways to remain competitive. Reynor was having some joy, but Serral wrested that H2H back in his general favour. Clem was smacking Serral around in 2024 when he levelled up, but Serral in 2025 has managed to beat him in a Bo9, and even in losses they’re always into the decider.
When Maru and Serral finally started meeting in tournaments more regularly, Maru couldn’t figure out how to arrest the slide and it actually got more one-sided over time. To the degree Maru has basically the worst record against Serral outside of Cure among S-A tier pros.
|
WTH why does herO have to clown on the biggest stage. That game 1 set him up for failure.
|
Solar form looks good.
Classic style is the only way for toss to win
|
United Kingdom38257 Posts
On July 25 2025 01:28 tigera6 wrote:
People keep saying Zerg is weak, only Serral carry them all these years. Yet we have 4 Zergs champ in Blizzcon/IEM/Gamers8/EWC. This tournament 3 Zergs made it to top 8 and 2 made it to top 4.
Yeah, Zerg is very strong as always. But I think Z is routinely a better tourney race than it is for ladder or more casual cup scenarios that other lesser players play in
|
On July 25 2025 01:31 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 01:27 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 25 2025 01:25 darklycid wrote:On July 25 2025 01:18 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Artosis comments on herO's keyboard are so funny
Looks like herO goes out 3-0 Its kinda funny, protoss is supposedly in one of its Most broken States and we get maybe 1 toss in the ro4 at Most I think it goes back to how different balance is at the very top vs anything lower level. I do think this is one of the strongest patches for "ladder toss" ever. At the top level I really don't think its bad for zerg at all, ladder definitely looks very different though, its tough to deal with the protoss deathball if you're below like mid grandmasters, and you also won't have the multitasking below that level to pick apart the protoss with nyduses, drops, and attacks everywhere like Serral and Reynor can
I also do think that these result Here are because of zerg figuring stuff Out and being in a Meta Advantage so to say and toss prob needing to find the best way to beat this.
|
France12911 Posts
On July 25 2025 01:28 tigera6 wrote:
People keep saying Zerg is weak, only Serral carry them all these years. Yet we have 4 Zergs champ in Blizzcon/IEM/Gamers8/EWC. This tournament 3 Zergs made it to top 8 and 2 made it to top 4.
They are used to zerg being OP so when they are balanced they feel weak
|
On July 25 2025 01:31 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 01:27 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 25 2025 01:25 darklycid wrote:On July 25 2025 01:18 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Artosis comments on herO's keyboard are so funny
Looks like herO goes out 3-0 Its kinda funny, protoss is supposedly in one of its Most broken States and we get maybe 1 toss in the ro4 at Most I think it goes back to how different balance is at the very top vs anything lower level. I do think this is one of the strongest patches for "ladder toss" ever. At the top level I really don't think its bad for zerg at all, ladder definitely looks very different though, its tough to deal with the protoss deathball if you're below like mid grandmasters, and you also won't have the multitasking below that level to pick apart the protoss with nyduses, drops, and attacks everywhere like Serral and Reynor can
Yeah, that's basically what I mean. I can play ZvP, be ahead 7 bases to 4, then lose my entire army in 3 seconds to Storm/Carrier deathball, because I can't control Viper/Infestor/corruptor armies the way Serral can. And I don't have the multitasking to micro attacks in 3 places at once. So even when I try to play multiprong harrass stuff, I can do damage with 1 group of units, but another group of units got completely erased by the protoss deatball, so I don't actually gain anything from the trade. And I think this experience is shared by 99% of ladder zergs. Just not at the high GM and pro level, but that's literally 0.01 percent of the playerbase or less.
|
On July 25 2025 01:25 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 01:18 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Artosis comments on herO's keyboard are so funny
Looks like herO goes out 3-0 Its kinda funny, protoss is supposedly in one of its Most broken States and we get maybe 1 toss in the ro4 at Most
Don't worry, when Classic lands a few storms on Clem there will be Protoss OP whine again 
|
in future, we need Clem to play ZvP so that ro4s are perfectly balanced between Serral (Z), Classic (P), Cure (T), and Clem (P, T, Z)
|
On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination. Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks. Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor. Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat
Terran favored patch in 2018-2019? Dude you just discredited everything you wanted to say. Go look at the Blizzcon finals of 2019. Look how many Zergs are in it.
You literally picked the most imbalanced era we've had since LoTV freshly launched and you picked the wrong race that it was in favor of.
|
On July 25 2025 01:32 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. I think the one thing they don’t overestimate is his skill level, least in terms of playing the game. He’s absolutely bonkers at it. If we’re talking both players combined, I think the highest quality set I’ve ever seen was Maru vs Serral on Radhuset. If Maru has a weakness, IMO he struggles to beat people who equal or even surpass his skill level at times. I think his strongest periods were when JAGW were still a thing, and maybe that helped cover it a little. There is that contrast with Serral, even if he doesn’t necessarily 100% solve a new rival who hits his level in raw mechanical ability, he figures ways to remain competitive. Reynor was having some joy, but Serral wrested that H2H back in his general favour. Clem was smacking Serral around in 2024 when he levelled up, but Serral in 2025 has managed to beat him in a Bo9, and even in losses they’re always into the decider. When Maru and Serral finally started meeting in tournaments more regularly, Maru couldn’t figure out how to arrest the slide and it actually got more one-sided over time. To the degree Maru has basically the worst record against Serral outside of Cure among S-A tier pros.
The problem I have with how Maru played for the last couple years, more often on TvZ and TvT, is how he always tend to build more worker and CC instead of unit production. He seems to be too fine sitting at home in the dark and just die to a push because he doesnt have enough units. I feel like his TvP worked so well recently because he can jus shove it at any moment and win the game.
|
On July 25 2025 01:39 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 01:32 WombaT wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. I think the one thing they don’t overestimate is his skill level, least in terms of playing the game. He’s absolutely bonkers at it. If we’re talking both players combined, I think the highest quality set I’ve ever seen was Maru vs Serral on Radhuset. If Maru has a weakness, IMO he struggles to beat people who equal or even surpass his skill level at times. I think his strongest periods were when JAGW were still a thing, and maybe that helped cover it a little. There is that contrast with Serral, even if he doesn’t necessarily 100% solve a new rival who hits his level in raw mechanical ability, he figures ways to remain competitive. Reynor was having some joy, but Serral wrested that H2H back in his general favour. Clem was smacking Serral around in 2024 when he levelled up, but Serral in 2025 has managed to beat him in a Bo9, and even in losses they’re always into the decider. When Maru and Serral finally started meeting in tournaments more regularly, Maru couldn’t figure out how to arrest the slide and it actually got more one-sided over time. To the degree Maru has basically the worst record against Serral outside of Cure among S-A tier pros. The problem I have with how Maru played for the last couple years, more often on TvZ and TvT, is how he always tend to build more worker and CC instead of unit production. He seems to be too fine sitting at home in the dark and just die to a push because he doesnt have enough units. I feel like his TvP worked so well recently because he can jus shove it at any moment and win the game.
I agree. I think part of that is due to injury. Maru definitely slowed down a lot since his peak.
|
Northern Ireland26629 Posts
On July 25 2025 01:27 TheLordofAwesome wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 01:25 darklycid wrote:On July 25 2025 01:18 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Artosis comments on herO's keyboard are so funny
Looks like herO goes out 3-0 Its kinda funny, protoss is supposedly in one of its Most broken States and we get maybe 1 toss in the ro4 at Most I think it goes back to how different balance is at the very top vs anything lower level. I do think this is one of the strongest patches for "ladder toss" ever. Doesn't mean it translates into results vs Serral, Reynor, Solar, and Rogue, or vs Cure, Maru, Clem.
It seems unlikely to happen now but this was my big question of Clem’s PvT coming in.
Super strong on ladder and doing the business in weeklies, but how’s it look when we’re at by far the biggest LAN of the year, with pocket builds and set planning, as well as prioritising and peaking become factors.
It’s a shame we probably won’t see it, the world’s best mechanical player giving Toss a go, I think it would be fascinating
|
On July 25 2025 01:42 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 01:27 TheLordofAwesome wrote:On July 25 2025 01:25 darklycid wrote:On July 25 2025 01:18 TheLordofAwesome wrote:
Artosis comments on herO's keyboard are so funny
Looks like herO goes out 3-0 Its kinda funny, protoss is supposedly in one of its Most broken States and we get maybe 1 toss in the ro4 at Most I think it goes back to how different balance is at the very top vs anything lower level. I do think this is one of the strongest patches for "ladder toss" ever. Doesn't mean it translates into results vs Serral, Reynor, Solar, and Rogue, or vs Cure, Maru, Clem. It seems unlikely to happen now but this was my big question of Clem’s PvT coming in. Super strong on ladder and doing the business in weeklies, but how’s it look when we’re at by far the biggest LAN of the year, with pocket builds and set planning, as well as prioritising and peaking become factors. It’s a shame we probably won’t see it, the world’s best mechanical player giving Toss a go, I think it would be fascinating
He played P for 2 games vs Byun, didn't he?
|
On July 25 2025 01:39 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 01:32 WombaT wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. I think the one thing they don’t overestimate is his skill level, least in terms of playing the game. He’s absolutely bonkers at it. If we’re talking both players combined, I think the highest quality set I’ve ever seen was Maru vs Serral on Radhuset. If Maru has a weakness, IMO he struggles to beat people who equal or even surpass his skill level at times. I think his strongest periods were when JAGW were still a thing, and maybe that helped cover it a little. There is that contrast with Serral, even if he doesn’t necessarily 100% solve a new rival who hits his level in raw mechanical ability, he figures ways to remain competitive. Reynor was having some joy, but Serral wrested that H2H back in his general favour. Clem was smacking Serral around in 2024 when he levelled up, but Serral in 2025 has managed to beat him in a Bo9, and even in losses they’re always into the decider. When Maru and Serral finally started meeting in tournaments more regularly, Maru couldn’t figure out how to arrest the slide and it actually got more one-sided over time. To the degree Maru has basically the worst record against Serral outside of Cure among S-A tier pros. The problem I have with how Maru played for the last couple years, more often on TvZ and TvT, is how he always tend to build more worker and CC instead of unit production. He seems to be too fine sitting at home in the dark and just die to a push because he doesnt have enough units. I feel like his TvP worked so well recently because he can jus shove it at any moment and win the game.
I was excited to see more of Maru's TvP because I feel his TvP might be the best in the world at the moment. he has always been the innovator of that match-up with his timing attacks
|
On July 25 2025 01:30 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2025 01:29 Promised_pain wrote:On July 25 2025 01:02 TeamMamba wrote:On July 25 2025 00:56 Gescom wrote:On July 25 2025 00:51 WombaT wrote:
Not every loss is a choke, fook sake!
If anything, Maru showed some pretty clutch play in pulling the boys while down match point and behind in the last set. Unfortunately for him Cure pulled a similarly clutch kill move.
Maru’s found basically every way to lose WCs, I think him losing to Oliveira was maybe the only real example of his play just falling apart in a choking fashion.
He’s been hard-countered by a teammate’s series planning (sOs), been battered by the superior player at the time (Serral). He’s planned a series awfully, dismantling a player with incredible defensive macro games and then throwing out garbage builds (Reynor)
Being clutch and a choker aren’t the only two options on the table. Hot/based take, but IMO Maru fans drastically overestimate his skill level (particularly in 2025) and think the only way he can lose is because he choked, not because he was outplayed by a 'superior player at the time'. Maru fans has always overestimated him. They make the most nonsense excuses for him after every elimination. Such as jet lag, hiding builds, stubborn, toss Zerg Op etc Outside of that very terran favourite patch in 2018-2019. Take that year away and Maru wouldn’t even be in this nonsense goat talks. Maru has been the big fish in a little pond in korea for years. There is a reason why he has never wrong a world title because he doesn’t have that “it” factor. Most fans and even the haters can recognize Serral skills through the eye test. Take any year away from Serral and he will still be the consensus goat Facts. I think only Clem could take out Serral right now. But even if he manages to snatch a second world title the koreaboos are still gonna draw out the "but, but, but... GSL!" card. Serral never played and never will play in GSL, which is understandable since it would be a netloss considering the peanut price pool. On the other hand, Maru's had his chances for at least eight years (or however long the world title has been up for grabs), yet has never delivered. So Serral never having played in the GSL should be rated higher than Maru reaching 2 finals and 4 ro4s in world championships?
If we reversed the roles and let Serral play in the GSL for eight years (like Maru has had his chances for world title) I would be surprised if he didn't win it at least once considering how he has been pretty much invincible against Koreans for years now
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
