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United States33638 Posts
Gumiho is 2 for 2 in driving top Terrans insane by just existing. The REAL GOAT, in my opinion.
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On May 15 2025 21:58 Ciaus237 wrote:
Watching SC2 as a Zergie in this game state is depressing.
Zerg has been unfun to play against since LotV came out so...
I thought Maru's raw talent would carry him through, but it's clear that both injuries (which I guess were bad enough to keep him out of military service?) and a seeming lack of motivation (given the previously presumed death of GSL?) have caught up with him. It is what it is.
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Four players who all have exactly one Code S championship under their belt fighting for their second.
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Wow, what a result. I don't think Reynor is in bad condition either. So many players competitive at a super high level makes me more excited for EWC.
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On May 15 2025 22:08 Tsubbi wrote:
Zerg truely is the least fun it has ever been, no wonder barely anyone is still playing
It is indeed.
It's also quite weak in ZvP - which is a problem given that below the top 15 or so players is just a sea of Protoss.
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On May 15 2025 23:33 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2025 22:08 Tsubbi wrote:
Zerg truely is the least fun it has ever been, no wonder barely anyone is still playing It is indeed. It's also quite weak in ZvP - which is a problem given that below the top 15 or so players is just a sea of Protoss.
I dont think zerg is particulary weak in zvp right Now, recent results have been okay (even this gsl its more the zvt that zergs got eliminated by).
But the way zergs need to approach zvp right Now is Just the Reverse of how protoss Had to do it when they were complaining (win in midgame/early endgame or die trying). Cant say there isn't some satisfaction seeing zergs complain about that when they were telling us the mu was fine the whole Time but there def needs to be Something done about it.
Edit: toss def favored in pvz rn but Not as much as your comment might suggest imo.
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On May 15 2025 22:08 Tsubbi wrote:
Zerg truely is the least fun it has ever been, no wonder barely anyone is still playing
You must not remember late HotS where you either had to face Mass Raven turtle (after SHs got removed) or got to watch Stalkers kill your units for free with 10 Sentrys permacasting unbreakable forcefields
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Northern Ireland27041 Posts
On May 16 2025 00:41 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2025 23:33 Ciaus237 wrote:On May 15 2025 22:08 Tsubbi wrote:
Zerg truely is the least fun it has ever been, no wonder barely anyone is still playing It is indeed. It's also quite weak in ZvP - which is a problem given that below the top 15 or so players is just a sea of Protoss. I dont think zerg is particulary weak in zvp right Now, recent results have been okay (even this gsl its more the zvt that zergs got eliminated by). But the way zergs need to approach zvp right Now is Just the Reverse of how protoss Had to do it when they were complaining (win in midgame/early endgame or die trying). Cant say there isn't some satisfaction seeing zergs complain about that when they were telling us the mu was fine the whole Time but there def needs to be Something done about it. Edit: toss def favored in pvz rn but Not as much as your comment might suggest imo.
Yeah I think really what Zergs lack are consistently viable kill options in the early and midgame.
If it goes late, and the Zerg is in good shape, it’s very playable. But it feels that’s kinda their main win condition. Don’t take damage, make good reads and you might win late. There aren’t too many scary all-ins going these days that might keep a Toss honest
We’ve had shitty periods for PvZ/ZvP balance in the past, I may have my biases there, but nonetheless I really do think ZvP is quite rough at the top end these days.
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On May 16 2025 09:52 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2025 00:41 darklycid wrote:On May 15 2025 23:33 Ciaus237 wrote:On May 15 2025 22:08 Tsubbi wrote:
Zerg truely is the least fun it has ever been, no wonder barely anyone is still playing It is indeed. It's also quite weak in ZvP - which is a problem given that below the top 15 or so players is just a sea of Protoss. I dont think zerg is particulary weak in zvp right Now, recent results have been okay (even this gsl its more the zvt that zergs got eliminated by). But the way zergs need to approach zvp right Now is Just the Reverse of how protoss Had to do it when they were complaining (win in midgame/early endgame or die trying). Cant say there isn't some satisfaction seeing zergs complain about that when they were telling us the mu was fine the whole Time but there def needs to be Something done about it. Edit: toss def favored in pvz rn but Not as much as your comment might suggest imo. Yeah I think really what Zergs lack are consistently viable kill options in the early and midgame. If it goes late, and the Zerg is in good shape, it’s very playable. But it feels that’s kinda their main win condition. Don’t take damage, make good reads and you might win late. There aren’t too many scary all-ins going these days that might keep a Toss honest We’ve had shitty periods for PvZ/ZvP balance in the past, I may have my biases there, but nonetheless I really do think ZvP is quite rough at the top end these days.
Not sure I agree, players like Shin or Dark played exclusively mid game allins vs Toss, and their winrates weren't too bad.
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Jesus, Maru is just screwing around, he got tired of winning. Gumi looks very handsome today, that was glorious.
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On May 16 2025 11:12 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2025 09:52 WombaT wrote:On May 16 2025 00:41 darklycid wrote:On May 15 2025 23:33 Ciaus237 wrote:On May 15 2025 22:08 Tsubbi wrote:
Zerg truely is the least fun it has ever been, no wonder barely anyone is still playing It is indeed. It's also quite weak in ZvP - which is a problem given that below the top 15 or so players is just a sea of Protoss. I dont think zerg is particulary weak in zvp right Now, recent results have been okay (even this gsl its more the zvt that zergs got eliminated by). But the way zergs need to approach zvp right Now is Just the Reverse of how protoss Had to do it when they were complaining (win in midgame/early endgame or die trying). Cant say there isn't some satisfaction seeing zergs complain about that when they were telling us the mu was fine the whole Time but there def needs to be Something done about it. Edit: toss def favored in pvz rn but Not as much as your comment might suggest imo. Yeah I think really what Zergs lack are consistently viable kill options in the early and midgame. If it goes late, and the Zerg is in good shape, it’s very playable. But it feels that’s kinda their main win condition. Don’t take damage, make good reads and you might win late. There aren’t too many scary all-ins going these days that might keep a Toss honest We’ve had shitty periods for PvZ/ZvP balance in the past, I may have my biases there, but nonetheless I really do think ZvP is quite rough at the top end these days. Not sure I agree, players like Shin or Dark played exclusively mid game allins vs Toss, and their winrates weren't too bad.
Yes i'd argue its more the other way around, there are good midgame Timings (that are more or less balanced) but No way to get to the later Game without doing those and pray for damage. Even If you dont Take much damage and both Sides Just do normal Trading usually the toss is ahead with tempest etc.
On the other Hand non skytoss comps Just dont See Land vs criritcal lurker masses i feel. Ideally i'd Like to See skytoss nerfed and some Changes for ground toss to stand Up better vs mass lurker armies.
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Northern Ireland27041 Posts
On May 16 2025 11:12 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2025 09:52 WombaT wrote:On May 16 2025 00:41 darklycid wrote:On May 15 2025 23:33 Ciaus237 wrote:On May 15 2025 22:08 Tsubbi wrote:
Zerg truely is the least fun it has ever been, no wonder barely anyone is still playing It is indeed. It's also quite weak in ZvP - which is a problem given that below the top 15 or so players is just a sea of Protoss. I dont think zerg is particulary weak in zvp right Now, recent results have been okay (even this gsl its more the zvt that zergs got eliminated by). But the way zergs need to approach zvp right Now is Just the Reverse of how protoss Had to do it when they were complaining (win in midgame/early endgame or die trying). Cant say there isn't some satisfaction seeing zergs complain about that when they were telling us the mu was fine the whole Time but there def needs to be Something done about it. Edit: toss def favored in pvz rn but Not as much as your comment might suggest imo. Yeah I think really what Zergs lack are consistently viable kill options in the early and midgame. If it goes late, and the Zerg is in good shape, it’s very playable. But it feels that’s kinda their main win condition. Don’t take damage, make good reads and you might win late. There aren’t too many scary all-ins going these days that might keep a Toss honest We’ve had shitty periods for PvZ/ZvP balance in the past, I may have my biases there, but nonetheless I really do think ZvP is quite rough at the top end these days. Not sure I agree, players like Shin or Dark played exclusively mid game allins vs Toss, and their winrates weren't too bad.
This is fair, Zerg can all-in, that is an option.
But what I more meant is, playing a macro game, it feels they aren’t super flexible.
Previously I felt a Zerg could have the aim of a macro game, but spot some weakness and just go and kill you.
Terrans and Toss can still do that, I don’t think Zergs have quite as much flexibility anymore. In ZvP specifically btw. Games that are exceptions will exist but in general it feels Zergs either all-in, or play macro games of attrition.
Serral is incredibly good at the latter, I think these shifts haven’t super affected him. But they’ve clearly affected basically everyone else.
It’s a shame as I’ve been pretty vocal in the past, I think Trap wins a GSL if PvZ was in a better spot then. Then I think we had a period where PvZ was actually pretty good. Most games I felt the better player won on the day and I didn’t have too many complaints.
Last patch feels it’s swung the pendulum a little too far the other way. From what I see at the pro level.
I don’t play myself anymore but from what I gather at the mere mortal level of play ZvP is really causing issues right now too.
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On May 17 2025 00:53 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2025 11:12 Charoisaur wrote:On May 16 2025 09:52 WombaT wrote:On May 16 2025 00:41 darklycid wrote:On May 15 2025 23:33 Ciaus237 wrote:On May 15 2025 22:08 Tsubbi wrote:
Zerg truely is the least fun it has ever been, no wonder barely anyone is still playing It is indeed. It's also quite weak in ZvP - which is a problem given that below the top 15 or so players is just a sea of Protoss. I dont think zerg is particulary weak in zvp right Now, recent results have been okay (even this gsl its more the zvt that zergs got eliminated by). But the way zergs need to approach zvp right Now is Just the Reverse of how protoss Had to do it when they were complaining (win in midgame/early endgame or die trying). Cant say there isn't some satisfaction seeing zergs complain about that when they were telling us the mu was fine the whole Time but there def needs to be Something done about it. Edit: toss def favored in pvz rn but Not as much as your comment might suggest imo. Yeah I think really what Zergs lack are consistently viable kill options in the early and midgame. If it goes late, and the Zerg is in good shape, it’s very playable. But it feels that’s kinda their main win condition. Don’t take damage, make good reads and you might win late. There aren’t too many scary all-ins going these days that might keep a Toss honest We’ve had shitty periods for PvZ/ZvP balance in the past, I may have my biases there, but nonetheless I really do think ZvP is quite rough at the top end these days. Not sure I agree, players like Shin or Dark played exclusively mid game allins vs Toss, and their winrates weren't too bad. This is fair, Zerg can all-in, that is an option. But what I more meant is, playing a macro game, it feels they aren’t super flexible. Previously I felt a Zerg could have the aim of a macro game, but spot some weakness and just go and kill you. Terrans and Toss can still do that, I don’t think Zergs have quite as much flexibility anymore. In ZvP specifically btw. Games that are exceptions will exist but in general it feels Zergs either all-in, or play macro games of attrition. Serral is incredibly good at the latter, I think these shifts haven’t super affected him. But they’ve clearly affected basically everyone else. It’s a shame as I’ve been pretty vocal in the past, I think Trap wins a GSL if PvZ was in a better spot then. Then I think we had a period where PvZ was actually pretty good. Most games I felt the better player won on the day and I didn’t have too many complaints. Last patch feels it’s swung the pendulum a little too far the other way. From what I see at the pro level. I don’t play myself anymore but from what I gather at the mere mortal level of play ZvP is really causing issues right now too.
I think at the Mortal Level pvz usually becomes a Problem when you can get to the skytoss Stage too comfortably because Carriers + Storm are pretty good there.
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On May 17 2025 00:53 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2025 11:12 Charoisaur wrote:On May 16 2025 09:52 WombaT wrote:On May 16 2025 00:41 darklycid wrote:On May 15 2025 23:33 Ciaus237 wrote:On May 15 2025 22:08 Tsubbi wrote:
Zerg truely is the least fun it has ever been, no wonder barely anyone is still playing It is indeed. It's also quite weak in ZvP - which is a problem given that below the top 15 or so players is just a sea of Protoss. I dont think zerg is particulary weak in zvp right Now, recent results have been okay (even this gsl its more the zvt that zergs got eliminated by). But the way zergs need to approach zvp right Now is Just the Reverse of how protoss Had to do it when they were complaining (win in midgame/early endgame or die trying). Cant say there isn't some satisfaction seeing zergs complain about that when they were telling us the mu was fine the whole Time but there def needs to be Something done about it. Edit: toss def favored in pvz rn but Not as much as your comment might suggest imo. Yeah I think really what Zergs lack are consistently viable kill options in the early and midgame. If it goes late, and the Zerg is in good shape, it’s very playable. But it feels that’s kinda their main win condition. Don’t take damage, make good reads and you might win late. There aren’t too many scary all-ins going these days that might keep a Toss honest We’ve had shitty periods for PvZ/ZvP balance in the past, I may have my biases there, but nonetheless I really do think ZvP is quite rough at the top end these days. Not sure I agree, players like Shin or Dark played exclusively mid game allins vs Toss, and their winrates weren't too bad. This is fair, Zerg can all-in, that is an option. But what I more meant is, playing a macro game, it feels they aren’t super flexible. Previously I felt a Zerg could have the aim of a macro game, but spot some weakness and just go and kill you. Terrans and Toss can still do that, I don’t think Zergs have quite as much flexibility anymore. In ZvP specifically btw. Games that are exceptions will exist but in general it feels Zergs either all-in, or play macro games of attrition. Serral is incredibly good at the latter, I think these shifts haven’t super affected him. But they’ve clearly affected basically everyone else. It’s a shame as I’ve been pretty vocal in the past, I think Trap wins a GSL if PvZ was in a better spot then. Then I think we had a period where PvZ was actually pretty good. Most games I felt the better player won on the day and I didn’t have too many complaints. Last patch feels it’s swung the pendulum a little too far the other way. From what I see at the pro level. I don’t play myself anymore but from what I gather at the mere mortal level of play ZvP is really causing issues right now too.
Yeah, I agree with the notion that Zerg either has to go for a committed allin or grind the super lategame.
The problem imo is just Tempest + Storm and Mothership being way too strong and once the game gets there (which every Protoss is aiming for and transirioning to quite quickly) the only remaining win condition for Zerg is to grind a perfect 30-40 minute macro game which usually only Serral does.
Mass air armies just don't lead to fun gameplay in sc2 and I have no idea why the balance council promoted it with the last patch
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On May 17 2025 02:31 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2025 00:53 WombaT wrote:On May 16 2025 11:12 Charoisaur wrote:On May 16 2025 09:52 WombaT wrote:On May 16 2025 00:41 darklycid wrote:On May 15 2025 23:33 Ciaus237 wrote:On May 15 2025 22:08 Tsubbi wrote:
Zerg truely is the least fun it has ever been, no wonder barely anyone is still playing It is indeed. It's also quite weak in ZvP - which is a problem given that below the top 15 or so players is just a sea of Protoss. I dont think zerg is particulary weak in zvp right Now, recent results have been okay (even this gsl its more the zvt that zergs got eliminated by). But the way zergs need to approach zvp right Now is Just the Reverse of how protoss Had to do it when they were complaining (win in midgame/early endgame or die trying). Cant say there isn't some satisfaction seeing zergs complain about that when they were telling us the mu was fine the whole Time but there def needs to be Something done about it. Edit: toss def favored in pvz rn but Not as much as your comment might suggest imo. Yeah I think really what Zergs lack are consistently viable kill options in the early and midgame. If it goes late, and the Zerg is in good shape, it’s very playable. But it feels that’s kinda their main win condition. Don’t take damage, make good reads and you might win late. There aren’t too many scary all-ins going these days that might keep a Toss honest We’ve had shitty periods for PvZ/ZvP balance in the past, I may have my biases there, but nonetheless I really do think ZvP is quite rough at the top end these days. Not sure I agree, players like Shin or Dark played exclusively mid game allins vs Toss, and their winrates weren't too bad. This is fair, Zerg can all-in, that is an option. But what I more meant is, playing a macro game, it feels they aren’t super flexible. Previously I felt a Zerg could have the aim of a macro game, but spot some weakness and just go and kill you. Terrans and Toss can still do that, I don’t think Zergs have quite as much flexibility anymore. In ZvP specifically btw. Games that are exceptions will exist but in general it feels Zergs either all-in, or play macro games of attrition. Serral is incredibly good at the latter, I think these shifts haven’t super affected him. But they’ve clearly affected basically everyone else. It’s a shame as I’ve been pretty vocal in the past, I think Trap wins a GSL if PvZ was in a better spot then. Then I think we had a period where PvZ was actually pretty good. Most games I felt the better player won on the day and I didn’t have too many complaints. Last patch feels it’s swung the pendulum a little too far the other way. From what I see at the pro level. I don’t play myself anymore but from what I gather at the mere mortal level of play ZvP is really causing issues right now too. Yeah, I agree with the notion that Zerg either has to go for a committed allin or grind the super lategame. The problem imo is just Tempest + Storm and Mothership being way too strong and once the game gets there (which every Protoss is aiming for and transirioning to quite quickly) the only remaining win condition for Zerg is to grind a perfect 30-40 minute macro game which usually only Serral does. Mass air armies just don't lead to fun gameplay in sc2 and I have no idea why the balance council promoted it with the last patch
Ya idk imo all races should have some way to counter Air (+casters) compositions with non air (+ casters) compositions.
Also super lategame Just becomes this almost stalematey Situation usually.
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Northern Ireland27041 Posts
On May 17 2025 02:31 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2025 00:53 WombaT wrote:On May 16 2025 11:12 Charoisaur wrote:On May 16 2025 09:52 WombaT wrote:On May 16 2025 00:41 darklycid wrote:On May 15 2025 23:33 Ciaus237 wrote:On May 15 2025 22:08 Tsubbi wrote:
Zerg truely is the least fun it has ever been, no wonder barely anyone is still playing It is indeed. It's also quite weak in ZvP - which is a problem given that below the top 15 or so players is just a sea of Protoss. I dont think zerg is particulary weak in zvp right Now, recent results have been okay (even this gsl its more the zvt that zergs got eliminated by). But the way zergs need to approach zvp right Now is Just the Reverse of how protoss Had to do it when they were complaining (win in midgame/early endgame or die trying). Cant say there isn't some satisfaction seeing zergs complain about that when they were telling us the mu was fine the whole Time but there def needs to be Something done about it. Edit: toss def favored in pvz rn but Not as much as your comment might suggest imo. Yeah I think really what Zergs lack are consistently viable kill options in the early and midgame. If it goes late, and the Zerg is in good shape, it’s very playable. But it feels that’s kinda their main win condition. Don’t take damage, make good reads and you might win late. There aren’t too many scary all-ins going these days that might keep a Toss honest We’ve had shitty periods for PvZ/ZvP balance in the past, I may have my biases there, but nonetheless I really do think ZvP is quite rough at the top end these days. Not sure I agree, players like Shin or Dark played exclusively mid game allins vs Toss, and their winrates weren't too bad. This is fair, Zerg can all-in, that is an option. But what I more meant is, playing a macro game, it feels they aren’t super flexible. Previously I felt a Zerg could have the aim of a macro game, but spot some weakness and just go and kill you. Terrans and Toss can still do that, I don’t think Zergs have quite as much flexibility anymore. In ZvP specifically btw. Games that are exceptions will exist but in general it feels Zergs either all-in, or play macro games of attrition. Serral is incredibly good at the latter, I think these shifts haven’t super affected him. But they’ve clearly affected basically everyone else. It’s a shame as I’ve been pretty vocal in the past, I think Trap wins a GSL if PvZ was in a better spot then. Then I think we had a period where PvZ was actually pretty good. Most games I felt the better player won on the day and I didn’t have too many complaints. Last patch feels it’s swung the pendulum a little too far the other way. From what I see at the pro level. I don’t play myself anymore but from what I gather at the mere mortal level of play ZvP is really causing issues right now too. Yeah, I agree with the notion that Zerg either has to go for a committed allin or grind the super lategame. The problem imo is just Tempest + Storm and Mothership being way too strong and once the game gets there (which every Protoss is aiming for and transirioning to quite quickly) the only remaining win condition for Zerg is to grind a perfect 30-40 minute macro game which usually only Serral does. Mass air armies just don't lead to fun gameplay in sc2 and I have no idea why the balance council promoted it with the last patch
Yeah agreed there. Heavy air metas have always, always sucked. SC2 shines when unit comps require a lot of finesse, air balls generally do not.
Less fun to play, both with and against and less fun to watch as well at the top level.
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EPT
