Tasteless, myself, Ziggy, and State are here to announce our new crowdfunded tournament series, RSL: Revival! We're super excited to finally announce this as we've been putting a lot of thought and work into it, and there's lot's of ways for you all to get involved, including being able to vote for player invites, map pool changes, and more! We'll be producing the event LIVE from Korea with a broadcasting studio as well, and with enough support we will even be having an OFFLINE FINAL here in Seoul.
Check it out and help us bring back some of the glory days of SC2 here in the Mecca of esports, Seoul, South Korea!
StarCraft II has been a meaningful part of our lives, but with support for the game fading, it's clear we can no longer wait and hope—it's time to act. Every year we wait for someone else to keep SC2 alive, but no more. Nick 'Tasteless' Plott and other key community members based in Seoul are launching a new SC2 event series from a new studio in Seoul, and with your support, we’ll grow this into the world-class event the game deserves - if we can reach our goals, we will produce an offline grand finals with an in-person audience. The more the community rallies behind this, the bigger and better it becomes—no more waiting, no more doubt, just the best players on Earth doing what they do best, with top-tier commentary to match. Join us, and help carry the torch of SC2 into the future.
GOALS Goal 1: Base level - we will be operating at this level for 2025 regardless of what level we hit
Event Scope: Two online seasons of your StarCraft 2 tournament.
Prize Pool: 5 million KRW per season (10 million KRW total).
Hosted from a new studio space in Seoul, casters would be offline and together for the broadcast
Features:
Professional broadcast production. 2 broadcasts a week during the season with professional commentators in person and together (State, Gemini, Tasteless, and more!)
Goal 2: Enhanced Online Seasons ($11,000/month)
Event Scope: Three online seasons of your Starcraft 2 tournament.
All features from Goal 1
Launch a regular Patreon-only podcast hosted by Gemini and Ziggy to discuss events, have guest pros and community figures on for interviews.
Increased marketing and promotion efforts.
Potentially bring in guest commentators or analysts for certain matches.
Community engagement initiatives (e.g., player spotlights, fan contests).
Goal 3: 3 Seasons, offline season final ($15,000/month)
Event Scope: Three online seasons + a two-day offline Grand Finals weekend event in Seoul with spectators and other side events.
Prize Pool: 10 million KRW per season (30 million KRW total).
Features:
All features from Goal 2.
Secure a full scale venue for a live show with audience throughout an entire weekend in Seoul, a full on STARCRAFT 2 festival.
Cover travel and accommodation costs for qualified players.
Produce high-quality coverage of the offline event, including interviews and behind-the-scenes content.
Host a $1000 Map contest, with the prize being awarded to the winning mapmaker, and the best map being featured in the following season - winning map would be based on voting by patrons
Produce a professionally produced mini-documentary capturing the excitement and stories of the Grand Finals weekend.
Bring special casting legends to Korea to cast the Grand Finals weekend in person alongside Tasteless.
Additional prize pool.
Goal 5: Team Tournament ($20,000/month)
Features:
Introduce a mid-year 3 on 3 team tournament with a 10 million KRW prize pool. The finals for this would also take place on the GRAND FINALS weekend in Seoul, South Korea
Teams would feature 1 prominent StarCraft 2 streamer/influencer or former pro + 2 pro players and hold an online DRAFT format
Expand broadcast coverage to include the team tournament.
Commit to year 2 (2026) immediately upon reaching this goal.
highly amused that a tasteless-involved crowdfund project includes a documentary
Anyway, very interesting to see an org set the crowdfund line at a high level like this. It's important for the post-ESL scene to find its funding ceiling, so I think it's good for someone to push the bar like this (assuming they can follow through to some reasonable extent).
Cynically speaking, a single org asking for potentially what could be a huge chunk of the available pot of viewer money will force everyone else to get their ducks in a row, and figure out what they really want to do besides small/mid-size cups (one of my annoyances with the scene right now).
My gut feeling here is that viewers will be wary of funding a tournament where a large % of funding goes to production, when most of the matches are online. It's too easy to compare to streamers running stuff out of their home studios and giving away a much bigger share to prize pool. Still, personally, I feel like having two casters to keep each other in "this is a serious broadcast" mode offers a good amount of baseline value over general solo-streaming (especially when the hours go long). Not sure what dollar value I'm putting on it, though.
I feel like this could have used a proof-of-concept tournament/showmatch before launching the Patreon to show us what kind of value/production qualities they can provide above a 'normal' online event held by a streamer. I think it's something I'd find enough value in paying a small fee for, but hard to tell without seeing the product.
Also, hope the TLMC (TasteLessMapContest) works out ^_^
I love that you guys are doing this. It just seems this is for basically the same audience as gsl and they already have all the Potential Patreon funding
On April 19 2025 22:32 Harris1st wrote: I love that you guys are doing this. It just seems this is for basically the same audience as gsl and they already have all the Potential Patreon funding
Given the scope of this, I’d imagine it’s been in the works for a while
It’s tricky as an outsider, perhaps as an insider these days! I mean is it intended to supplement GSL, or was it an attempt to fill that void for meaningful tournies in Korea before we got the ‘oh btw there’s some GSL’ announcement the other day?
It’s really hard to assess anything these days. I love the initiative regardless, as you say!
not sure if im misunderstanding or just stupid - $11,000 a month to get 3 seasons with a combined prize pool of $10,000? Where's the other $120,000 for the year going?
On April 20 2025 20:58 atrox_ wrote: not sure if im misunderstanding or just stupid - $11,000 a month to get 3 seasons with a combined prize pool of $10,000? Where's the other $120,000 for the year going?
I'll just focus on Goal 3 since that seems to be the main goal (since it has an offline venue)
Goal 3 = $180k/year, minus patreon fees = ~$153k/year, minus the prize pool there's $130k left. You'd have to pay the venue for an entire weekend which may cost $25k for 3 days, then another ~$10k for cost and travel accomodation for 8 non-KR players, and then $95k leftover. Then you have your patreon rewards like artwork, documentaries, KR tour, LAN party, etc. So maybe $90k leftover. Then you have your operational costs like cameramen, referees, observers, people managing the streaming. You also have your graphics/art assets for the stream itself and ads, and promotions. You have $60k, maybe $75k at best leftover between 3-4 casters doing 3 seasons a year, as well as managing the league itself (communications, negotiations, invoices, taxes, legal, scheduling, budgeting, managing the Patreon etc.)
On April 20 2025 20:58 atrox_ wrote: not sure if im misunderstanding or just stupid - $11,000 a month to get 3 seasons with a combined prize pool of $10,000? Where's the other $120,000 for the year going?
I'll just focus on Goal 3 since that seems to be the main goal (since it has an offline venue)
Goal 3 = $180k/year, minus patreon fees = ~$153k/year, minus the prize pool there's $130k left. You'd have to pay the venue for an entire weekend which may cost $25k for 3 days, then another ~$10k for cost and travel accomodation for 8 non-KR players, and then $95k leftover. Then you have your patreon rewards like artwork, documentaries, KR tour, LAN party, etc. So maybe $90k leftover. Then you have your operational costs like cameramen, referees, observers, people managing the streaming. You also have your graphics/art assets for the stream itself and ads, and promotions. You have $60k, maybe $75k at best leftover between 3-4 casters doing 3 seasons a year, as well as managing the league itself (communications, negotiations, invoices, taxes, legal, scheduling, budgeting, managing the Patreon etc.)
sure goal 3 you can see where the costs are - 4k is a big step up from an already high goal of 11k for goal 2 though so who knows if it will even get there? My original question - $120,000 for a year of 3 online tournaments is a hard ask with 0 transparency about where it's going.
On April 20 2025 20:58 atrox_ wrote: not sure if im misunderstanding or just stupid - $11,000 a month to get 3 seasons with a combined prize pool of $10,000? Where's the other $120,000 for the year going?
I'll just focus on Goal 3 since that seems to be the main goal (since it has an offline venue)
Goal 3 = $180k/year, minus patreon fees = ~$153k/year, minus the prize pool there's $130k left. You'd have to pay the venue for an entire weekend which may cost $25k for 3 days, then another ~$10k for cost and travel accomodation for 8 non-KR players, and then $95k leftover. Then you have your patreon rewards like artwork, documentaries, KR tour, LAN party, etc. So maybe $90k leftover. Then you have your operational costs like cameramen, referees, observers, people managing the streaming. You also have your graphics/art assets for the stream itself and ads, and promotions. You have $60k, maybe $75k at best leftover between 3-4 casters doing 3 seasons a year, as well as managing the league itself (communications, negotiations, invoices, taxes, legal, scheduling, budgeting, managing the Patreon etc.)
Your napkin math is very nitpickable, but putting that aside, this is really the kind of thing I'd want to see some proof-of-concept for before putting my money in. With crowdfunding, you could get NationWars or StayAt HomeStory Cup, but sometimes you get NASL season 1.
On April 20 2025 20:58 atrox_ wrote: not sure if im misunderstanding or just stupid - $11,000 a month to get 3 seasons with a combined prize pool of $10,000? Where's the other $120,000 for the year going?
I'll just focus on Goal 3 since that seems to be the main goal (since it has an offline venue)
Goal 3 = $180k/year, minus patreon fees = ~$153k/year, minus the prize pool there's $130k left. You'd have to pay the venue for an entire weekend which may cost $25k for 3 days, then another ~$10k for cost and travel accomodation for 8 non-KR players, and then $95k leftover. Then you have your patreon rewards like artwork, documentaries, KR tour, LAN party, etc. So maybe $90k leftover. Then you have your operational costs like cameramen, referees, observers, people managing the streaming. You also have your graphics/art assets for the stream itself and ads, and promotions. You have $60k, maybe $75k at best leftover between 3-4 casters doing 3 seasons a year, as well as managing the league itself (communications, negotiations, invoices, taxes, legal, scheduling, budgeting, managing the Patreon etc.)
Your napkin math is very nitpickable, but putting that aside, this is really the kind of thing I'd want to see some proof-of-concept for before putting my money in. With crowdfunding, you could get NationWars or StayAt HomeStory Cup, but sometimes you get NASL season 1.
Don't know what financial approach the organizers are taking, but needing to make money puts you in a very different position in terms of how far you can stretch each dollar versus just needing to break even (or even running at a slight loss). It's very hard to feed yourself doing starcraft, and I know a lot of other orgs have basically kept it on as a passion project and rely on other stuff to make ends meet.
So happy to see this. I was sad when State stopped streaming SC2, but so happy to see that he and Tasteless still have passion to cast the game and keep it alive (Gemini always had the passion). Will support this the best I can.
On April 20 2025 20:58 atrox_ wrote: not sure if im misunderstanding or just stupid - $11,000 a month to get 3 seasons with a combined prize pool of $10,000? Where's the other $120,000 for the year going?
I'll just focus on Goal 3 since that seems to be the main goal (since it has an offline venue)
Goal 3 = $180k/year, minus patreon fees = ~$153k/year, minus the prize pool there's $130k left. You'd have to pay the venue for an entire weekend which may cost $25k for 3 days, then another ~$10k for cost and travel accomodation for 8 non-KR players, and then $95k leftover. Then you have your patreon rewards like artwork, documentaries, KR tour, LAN party, etc. So maybe $90k leftover. Then you have your operational costs like cameramen, referees, observers, people managing the streaming. You also have your graphics/art assets for the stream itself and ads, and promotions. You have $60k, maybe $75k at best leftover between 3-4 casters doing 3 seasons a year, as well as managing the league itself (communications, negotiations, invoices, taxes, legal, scheduling, budgeting, managing the Patreon etc.)
Your napkin math is very nitpickable, but putting that aside, this is really the kind of thing I'd want to see some proof-of-concept for before putting my money in. With crowdfunding, you could get NationWars or StayAt HomeStory Cup, but sometimes you get NASL season 1.
Of course, it's just rough estimates, since none of us know the details ^^ The point i wanted to make is just that money goes dry quickly when you have a patreon funding the whole league, not just contributing to the prize pool like GSL's
I will definitely support this, and I hope others will also; I think the SC2 community is certainly large enough and well-funded enough to sustain something like this, and other things as well.
I do agree that it would be good to eventually get a public cost breakdown on how the money's being spent, though; for a crowdfunded tournament, that's pretty important for creating and maintaining confidence. The people involved, though, have certainly earned my trust enough to support.
Crowdfunding worked incredibly crazy for the dota2 scene as an example. Their 2021 world championship had like 40 million usd pricepool
While sc2 wont make that much but I hope it'll keep it alive
Sidenote: Hopefully they do erratic/unbalanced maps like broodwar cause like the sc2 maps has been so boring leading to similar games. They dont really promote good spectatorship
On April 22 2025 01:37 goody153 wrote: Would love to see it work.
Crowdfunding worked incredibly crazy for the dota2 scene as an example. Their 2021 world championship had like 40 million usd pricepool
While sc2 wont make that much but I hope it'll keep it alive
Sidenote: Hopefully they do erratic/unbalanced maps like broodwar cause like the sc2 maps has been so boring leading to similar games. They dont really promote good spectatorship
I’m still confused why Blizz didn’t keep doing Warchests, all they had to do was stick a few skins but really a lot of people chipped in solely to support tournaments, having not many other direct ways to do that.
On April 23 2025 01:57 Waxangel wrote: Given the prize money at the lowest tier, Serial and Reynor are huge gets. Definitely critical adds for the tourney
I was wondering why I’d seen Reynor streaming SC for the first time in ages the other day! Some fine picks already
On April 22 2025 01:37 goody153 wrote: Would love to see it work.
Crowdfunding worked incredibly crazy for the dota2 scene as an example. Their 2021 world championship had like 40 million usd pricepool
While sc2 wont make that much but I hope it'll keep it alive
Sidenote: Hopefully they do erratic/unbalanced maps like broodwar cause like the sc2 maps has been so boring leading to similar games. They dont really promote good spectatorship
I’m still confused why Blizz didn’t keep doing Warchests, all they had to do was stick a few skins but really a lot of people chipped in solely to support tournaments, having not many other direct ways to do that.
Well it's been discussed all over but the return on investment almost certainly isn't there compared to making cosmetics/micro transactions for other games. The 'WoW mount made more than SC2' story is exaggerated, but you can understand the general principle.
Waste money to live again things what belong to the past. Instead of this crowfunding, you could recruit modders to get an oldschool SC2 which one could extend the SC2 era.
Waste money to live again things what belong to the past. Instead of this crowfunding, you could recruit modders to get an oldschool SC2 which one could extend the SC2 era.
Alternatively you could have just found another game rather than constantly suggest an existing one is completely redesigned in every second thread you contribute to
Waste money to live again things what belong to the past. Instead of this crowfunding, you could recruit modders to get an oldschool SC2 which one could extend the SC2 era.
Still waiting on your revolutionary mod that will be 100% balanced and the best RTS ever.
Waste money to live again things what belong to the past. Instead of this crowfunding, you could recruit modders to get an oldschool SC2 which one could extend the SC2 era.
Alternatively you could have just found another game rather than constantly suggest an existing one is completely redesigned in every second thread you contribute to
As long as you are happy to see the same games constantly repeated with the same builds order and without any difference with the previous game except the graphics of the map...
This game is played by players who like to measure their competitive mind to some other but it s far from what galaxy editor could bring in a real new strategy game, i.e a game not based on speed
Waste money to live again things what belong to the past. Instead of this crowfunding, you could recruit modders to get an oldschool SC2 which one could extend the SC2 era.
Alternatively you could have just found another game rather than constantly suggest an existing one is completely redesigned in every second thread you contribute to
As long as you are happy to see the same games constantly repeated with the same builds order and without any difference with the previous game except the graphics of the map...
This game is played by players who like to measure their competitive mind to some other but it s far from what galaxy editor could bring in a real new strategy game, i.e a game not based on speed
Then watch professional Civ6 or whatever, should be slow enough for you. And don't let the fact that not only every RTS, but actually every Esports and even real sports gets faster and faster, not slower, to be more entertaining, stop you in any way :3
But back to topic: Maybe this is a stupid question and/or I'm blind, but can anyone tell me what RSL stands for? Revival Starleague?
Waste money to live again things what belong to the past. Instead of this crowfunding, you could recruit modders to get an oldschool SC2 which one could extend the SC2 era.
Alternatively you could have just found another game rather than constantly suggest an existing one is completely redesigned in every second thread you contribute to
As long as you are happy to see the same games constantly repeated with the same builds order and without any difference with the previous game except the graphics of the map...
This game is played by players who like to measure their competitive mind to some other but it s far from what galaxy editor could bring in a real new strategy game, i.e a game not based on speed
Oh no. SC2 is like basically every other sport? Actually SC2 compares really good to football. Every year there are very minor changes to the ruleset (handball rule urgh ) which make the game gradually worse. It also has gotten waayyyy faster in the last decades. Every year players evolve , strategies evolve (or sometimes regress),... Compared to Chess, which has been the same game for 100s of years, but even Chess got faster.
On April 25 2025 08:30 AirbladeOrange wrote: Very cool -- really looking forward to this. Would be interested in keeping up with how many donations they're up to.
Edit: I also hope they're willing to shake things up a bit to make the game feel fresh and exciting to bring people back to it.
Waste money to live again things what belong to the past. Instead of this crowfunding, you could recruit modders to get an oldschool SC2 which one could extend the SC2 era.
Alternatively you could have just found another game rather than constantly suggest an existing one is completely redesigned in every second thread you contribute to
As long as you are happy to see the same games constantly repeated with the same builds order and without any difference with the previous game except the graphics of the map...
This game is played by players who like to measure their competitive mind to some other but it s far from what galaxy editor could bring in a real new strategy game, i.e a game not based on speed
I don’t go to jazz night at my local bar and go ‘why the fuck aren’t you doing hip-hop night?’
You’re pissing on a pretty cool initiative, for something quite a lot of people still enjoy i
Sounds awesome. Hope the community steps up! Some early days GSL vibes would be cool. Who here still remembers PoopFeast420, the guy with some really good questions in the GomTV forums?
On April 29 2025 22:06 kajtarp wrote: Goal 5: Introduce a mid-year 3 on 3 team tournament with a 10 million KRW prize pool.
Honestly while i think this could be fun, i would rather see something similar to a "Code A" like tournament.
Didn't even think of this, but that woulda been huge if this was started years ago as a way to help give GM players and semi-pros a path to climb their way into Code S. Really too bad that GSL had to keep shrinking and the player pool became so stagnant.
But, stuff like RSL has a huge future. In the early years of SC2, there was many independent leagues forming and there was healthy competition. Then Blizz came in and tried to unify everything with WCS, but that killed off all the 'grassroots' aspect of the scene.
Perhaps this can be the exciting comeback of independently held, grassroots tournaments. This will be a huge experiment for sure and if successful, could lead to a long lasting future for SC2.
Honestly, pretty surprised so many ppl are willing to pay for something that won't deliver a product until mid June. I wonder if there will be a significant sub drop in month two from ppl who didn't read the fine print initially and are wondering where their StarCraft is.
I'm VERY surprised to find barely any high profile names signed up for the Americas server qualifier. I mean yeah it is America server but it's open to anyone. eu and kr regularly play on this server in weeklies especially if they vs each other and in later rounds like if it were kr vs kr or eu vs eu you are allowed to play on another server if you both agree. I feel like it can't just be cuz of lag. Did no one tell them when the qualifiers were?
Player base only get affected by the updates as you can see in this curve
i m only saying that money would be more effective for updates than if the money goes for crowfunding. And even if it s true people dislike when you recall them to reality.
Player base only get affected by the updates as you can see in this curve
i m only saying that money would be more effective for updates than if the money goes for crowfunding. And even if it s true people dislike when you recall them to reality.
Player base only get affected by the updates as you can see in this curve
i m only saying that money would be more effective for updates than if the money goes for crowfunding. And even if it s true people dislike when you recall them to reality.
Old game drops players over time? Totally shocked
Honestly, if these figures are legit, which I don't know, they are even better than I expected, relatively speaking. According to the diagram, SC2 still has roughly a third of its player base compared to its peak in the past ten years, which is not that bad for a game with zero publisher support.
Player base only get affected by the updates as you can see in this curve
i m only saying that money would be more effective for updates than if the money goes for crowfunding. And even if it s true people dislike when you recall them to reality.
Old game drops players over time? Totally shocked
Honestly, if these figures are legit, which I don't know, they are even better than I expected, relatively speaking. According to the diagram, SC2 still has roughly a third of its player base compared to its peak in the past ten years, which is not that bad for a game with zero publisher support.
Player base only get affected by the updates as you can see in this curve
i m only saying that money would be more effective for updates than if the money goes for crowfunding. And even if it s true people dislike when you recall them to reality.
Old game drops players over time? Totally shocked
Honestly, if these figures are legit, which I don't know, they are even better than I expected, relatively speaking. According to the diagram, SC2 still has roughly a third of its player base compared to its peak in the past ten years, which is not that bad for a game with zero publisher support.
Yeah they really aren’t bad numbers at all
Maybe it s because you don t look at what we are used to call "new" players.
Player base only get affected by the updates as you can see in this curve
i m only saying that money would be more effective for updates than if the money goes for crowfunding. And even if it s true people dislike when you recall them to reality.
Old game drops players over time? Totally shocked
Honestly, if these figures are legit, which I don't know, they are even better than I expected, relatively speaking. According to the diagram, SC2 still has roughly a third of its player base compared to its peak in the past ten years, which is not that bad for a game with zero publisher support.
Yeah they really aren’t bad numbers at all
Maybe it s because you don t look at what we are used to call "new" players.
I can read a graph. I don’t have much expectation of a big new player influx to a game that is 15 years old, in a genre that’s more niche than it used to be.
the best addition i would be happy to see looks like "mineral mines".
These new buildings would appear if you are using the shortcut of gas raffinery but in positionning on mines, a different building appear where workers could enter in and stay for mining minerals while being sheltered (about five to six workers maybe)
There are at least three advantages :
- variation in economy speed so build orders can vary more depending of the map and the number of these small mines - mines settling in middle of the map are easier to defend from harassement - allowing more shape possibility for mapmakers, for example mines can be oriented towards the center (while generally, minerals lines are oriented toward outside), they can be contested of course, but the addition of a fog of war on the lowest floor of the map can reduce units range (from shooting throught cliffs), adding depth to the position and movement of armies.
Plus, it can help for new players to develop their strategy as they are easy to defend.
Just an example for understanding (not a serious one)
To me this kind of idea can bring a lot of variation while it doesn t modify the balance, so mapmakers could create a lot of more complex and new maps (corridors in the middle can be more narrow)
PS : And even if it doesn t work out with pro scene, it will be interesting for casual gamers or hardcore players.
On May 20 2025 19:26 Vision_ wrote: the best addition i would be happy to see looks like "mineral mines".
These new buildings would appear if you are using the shortcut of gas raffinery but in positionning on mines, a different building appear where workers could enter in and stay for mining minerals while being sheltered (about five to six workers maybe)
There are at least three advantages :
- variation in economy speed so build orders can vary more depending of the map and the number of these small mines - mines settling in middle of the map are easier to defend from harassement - allowing more shape possibility for mapmakers, for example mines can be oriented towards the center (while generally, minerals lines are oriented toward outside), they can be contested of course, but the addition of a fog of war on the lowest floor of the map can reduce units range (from shooting throught cliffs), adding depth to the position and movement of armies.
Plus, it can help for new players to develop their strategy as they are easy to defend.
Just an example for understanding (not a serious one)
To me this kind of idea can bring a lot of variation while it doesn t modify the balance, so mapmakers could create a lot of more complex and new maps (corridors in the middle can be more narrow)
PS : And even if it doesn t work out with pro scene, it will be interesting for casual gamers or hardcore players.
Please open a blog with your ideas and keep them there. You don't need to post your ideas in every other thread
There’s plenty of threads like this one where people are theorycrafting more generally. By all means go ahead, some of it may be interesting.
Tournament threads, nah they tend to be populated by people who generally like and follow the game, so ‘what if the game was completely different?’ doesn’t really fit the topic
Prize pool was updated to 10mill won and we've got Archon Studios sponsoring us! But unfortunately Serral had to drop out and Harstem has replaced him.
On June 16 2025 22:54 Gemini_19 wrote: Prize pool was updated to 10mill won and we've got Archon Studios sponsoring us! But unfortunately Serral had to drop out and Harstem has replaced him.
On June 17 2025 02:34 Kreuger wrote: Very with prize and the sponsor. Sad to see serral drop out though, year of harstem lets go
yes, i wonder if he dropped out before they increased the prize pool, or if low prize pool is perhaps why he dropped even and the increased it to encourage other to play it or take it more seriously.
On June 17 2025 02:34 Kreuger wrote: Very with prize and the sponsor. Sad to see serral drop out though, year of harstem lets go
yes, i wonder if he dropped out before they increased the prize pool, or if low prize pool is perhaps why he dropped even and the increased it to encourage other to play it or take it more seriously.
EWC isn’t that far away and his ZvP isn’t looking at its usual invincible level, and he’s yet to figure out a way to reliably beat Clem.
I’d imagine he’s just wanting some time to prep and workshop stuff for EWC. And Serral historically does a lot of his best prep away from our eyes.
Even if they massively increased the pool, it’s nowhere near EWC money
On June 17 2025 02:34 Kreuger wrote: Very with prize and the sponsor. Sad to see serral drop out though, year of harstem lets go
yes, i wonder if he dropped out before they increased the prize pool, or if low prize pool is perhaps why he dropped even and the increased it to encourage other to play it or take it more seriously.
EWC isn’t that far away and his ZvP isn’t looking at its usual invincible level, and he’s yet to figure out a way to reliably beat Clem.
I’d imagine he’s just wanting some time to prep and workshop stuff for EWC. And Serral historically does a lot of his best prep away from our eyes.
Even if they massively increased the pool, it’s nowhere near EWC money
The math works out - winning the entire RSL-S1 tournament would be cool, but it's $2,200 USD for 1st place. - winning a single series in EWC is okay, and it's worth at least $5,000 USD, and increases with each successive win.
Then you have the downside of having to prepare/participate in the RSL tournament + potentially showing off some of your latest builds.
Like, I would be surprised if the top contenders for EWC would join - namely Clem, herO, Maru, and Serral. But yeah, Clem and herO are participating xD
Super cool RSL is happening though, hoping for some cool games.
On June 17 2025 19:37 Waxangel wrote: my biggest takeaway in the first 45 mins is that GSL really used music well
GG into a crane shot + the tackiest music ever is part of StarCraft's DNA
Agree with this. Would love some music overlaying I know they had some during downtime but I think looking at brackets and stuff whatever is showing u can have some low volume music it really adds to the experience.
On June 19 2025 00:27 Gemini_19 wrote: Day 2 full VOD!
Nice to see you at the casting desk today sir!
Although I do obviously bear a great resentment in that I was a Liquid HerO fanboy, with nobody fully filling that void until Trap. I’m definitely losing the ‘who is the biggest HerO/subsequently Trap fanboy around?’ poll :p
Has Clem ever had a single unit get hit by an opponent’s Disruptors? Swear those things are beach balls against him. Even when he sees them incredibly late.
Clem has probably lost more units to friendly fire from Disruptors playing Toss based on Chargelots doing their own thing and enthusiastically jumping on beach balls than he has playing Terran from his Toss haha!
I really loved some of herO’s play today. The usual mix of sharp and ruthless with sloppy. Nice mind game into phoenix (probably my favourite SC2 unit), sloppy donation of them subsequently but he did enough.
His crushing of Clem’s push in game 2 was super sick. Very judicious wraparound of the stalkers to snipe a stray tank. Continue attacking from that angle, while prism drops immortals approaching from below the leader on tanks and Chargelots bang in at the front. Really nice stuff.
Really enjoying this overall so far. Few technical snafus can happen but I think presentation has been pretty bang on, casting’s been good, not too much downtime, Mapu is killing the observing as per usual.
On June 19 2025 00:27 Gemini_19 wrote: Day 2 full VOD!
Nice to see you at the casting desk today sir!
Although I do obviously bear a great resentment in that I was a Liquid HerO fanboy, with nobody fully filling that void until Trap. I’m definitely losing the ‘who is the biggest HerO/subsequently Trap fanboy around?’ poll :p
Accidentally choosing the worst competition to try winning
i feel like I need to remind you RSL is on in 1 hour with a sick group. Harstem vs a world of zerg including 2 EWC qualified players. SHOULD BE AWESOME. TUNE IN.
Can someone put more information about the tournament on Liquipedia? like: - Which period of the tournament will be offline, which will be online? - Reasons for the absensce of top players like Serral, Maru, MaxPax.
By the way, when did Liquipedia remove the descriptions of tournaments?
Anyone more knowledgeable explain why Harstem consistently goes for a wall of pylon and 2 gates, rather than pylon behind and 3 other buildings as the wall?
It seemed pretty vulnerable today and got exploited a bit, I’m sure there’s a legit payoff to doing that I’m just not super sure what it is!
On June 19 2025 22:04 Garnet wrote: Can someone put more information about the tournament on Liquipedia? like: - Which period of the tournament will be offline, which will be online? - Reasons for the absensce of top players like Serral, Maru, MaxPax.
By the way, when did Liquipedia remove the descriptions of tournaments?
I don't believe they are doing offline yet? i know there are some benchmark goals but this is an everchanging process and roughly a template as its their first draft tournament but someone could correct me if I'm wrong. Furthers your point that we need that information.
online/offline: i can be wrong, but reading the first post, it seems to be clear that the seasons are all online events. if RSL can raise enough money to reach goal 3, they will commit to an (additional) offline season final event. i don't see and expect them to fly a Clem/Cham/Reynor to S. Korea for a regular season playoff ro4 (with a <$10k price pool). --
WombaT: i don't think i'm that knowledgeable, but here we go
fact: herO started doing this 1 pylon 1 gate cyber wall in ZvP a few years ago, and he is good at getting away with it. this could be a bait to invite zergs to try to bust the wall. if all goes well and the opponent is a honorable macro Z, P can get up the third faster, while still having just enough units to defend it.
my theorycrafting/assumption: you go adept first, and have godly scouting skills and game sense, confirm the zerg is indeed macroing, continue with the earlier nexus plan. you want your stargate down around ~2:17, chrono oracles. if you see a lack of drones, more lings than usual, you can simply reinforce your wall with additional gate, you can delay your nexus a bit, wait for first and maybe second oracle, maybe add a battery to your wall, depending on how many lings you see.
On June 20 2025 14:33 bela.mervado wrote: online/offline: i can be wrong, but reading the first post, it seems to be clear that the seasons are all online events. if RSL can raise enough money to reach goal 3, they will commit to an (additional) offline season final event. i don't see and expect them to fly a Clem/Cham/Reynor to S. Korea for a regular season playoff ro4 (with a <$10k price pool). --
WombaT: i don't think i'm that knowledgeable, but here we go
fact: herO started doing this 1 pylon 1 gate cyber wall in ZvP a few years ago, and he is good at getting away with it. this could be a bait to invite zergs to try to bust the wall. if all goes well and the opponent is a honorable macro Z, P can get up the third faster, while still having just enough units to defend it.
my theorycrafting/assumption: you go adept first, and have godly scouting skills and game sense, confirm the zerg is indeed macroing, continue with the earlier nexus plan. you want your stargate down around ~2:17, chrono oracles. if you see a lack of drones, more lings than usual, you can simply reinforce your wall with additional gate, you can delay your nexus a bit, wait for first and maybe second oracle, maybe add a battery to your wall, depending on how many lings you see.
Cheers sir!
Aye I thought it was something like that, it just seems herO has a better sense of how to cut corners while remaining safe than Harstem did some of these matches
Gotta be Classis and Clem advancing. Other side herO is a pretty safe bet. Reynor vs Cure depends a lot on which versions are going to show. Could go either way
Why is this not a featured news on the main page on TL? Even smaller tournaments get main page news that has a much lower skill pool than this tournament.
On July 04 2025 18:23 kajtarp wrote: Why is this not a featured news on the main page on TL? Even smaller tournaments get main page news that has a much lower skill pool than this tournament.
Yea I'm surprised there was no preview for the playoffs, even a short preview.
On July 04 2025 18:23 kajtarp wrote: Why is this not a featured news on the main page on TL? Even smaller tournaments get main page news that has a much lower skill pool than this tournament.
Yea I'm surprised there was no preview for the playoffs, even a short preview.
Yeah woulda been nice exposure for those who maybe weren’t aware this was going on
herO hasnt look good in PvZ for a while especially against the highly aggressive style like Reynor. Shin and Rogue played the same style against him as well and won. There was no reason to try fighting on the map if you dont have enough units and Gateway count, but its herO being herO. Classic or Zoun would have sat back to get an extra round of units and slowly get more powerful units.
am cheering for Cure to win this event, I think beating Reynor yesterday, confirms his good shape in context of how the zerg dealt with herO. Cure has been solid for so long and won relatively few titles.
Fun day’s games, great job all! enjoying the rotation of casters too and Reynor’s always good value
Who’s the British bloke incidentally?
On July 06 2025 20:08 tigera6 wrote: When Classic doesnt suffer early damage, he looks unstoppable in the mid-game. Might put him into tier 1 for EWC instead of herO, personally.
Yeah he’s looking super good lately, I think maybe his PvT is edging past herO’s in solidity, although I probably prefer herO in a PvZ
On July 06 2025 20:08 tigera6 wrote: When Classic doesnt suffer early damage, he looks unstoppable in the mid-game. Might put him into tier 1 for EWC instead of herO, personally.
Yeah he’s looking super good lately, I think maybe his PvT is edging past herO’s in solidity, although I probably prefer herO in a PvZ
Feels hard to even say that after herO just rolled over to everything Z thew at him this tourney.
I get we're probably not seeing everyone's A game with EWC round the corner, but he looked surprisingly lost.
He also got smashed by Reynor at Dallas and Rogue at GSL too so I'm not sure it's even just one tourney.
On July 06 2025 21:17 WombaT wrote: Fun day’s games, great job all! enjoying the rotation of casters too and Reynor’s always good value
Who’s the British bloke incidentally?
On July 06 2025 20:08 tigera6 wrote: When Classic doesnt suffer early damage, he looks unstoppable in the mid-game. Might put him into tier 1 for EWC instead of herO, personally.
Yeah he’s looking super good lately, I think maybe his PvT is edging past herO’s in solidity, although I probably prefer herO in a PvZ
Feels hard to even say that after herO just rolled over to everything Z thew at him this tourney.
I get we're probably not seeing everyone's A game with EWC round the corner, but he looked surprisingly lost.
He also got smashed by Reynor at Dallas and Rogue at GSL too so I'm not sure it's even just one tourney.
Yeah, fair points there. I guess he’s been the PvZ guy for so long now I’m giving him a bit of a pass for recent form that mightn’t be merited.
Reynor aside from being absurdly likeable knows the game pretty well, he had some interesting observations. The meta’s shifted a little bit, little less early/mid-game oriented and a trend to sorta rush into lategame a bit quicker. And herO really excels in the former more so than the latter.
Might be something in that, but I suppose we shall find out more come EWC
The issue with herO PvZ is how he relies too heavy onto Blink Stalker these days and get countered by Zerg going for quick Melee upgrade into Ling Hydra. Glaive Adept might actually be a good opening because they force Zerg to commit to early Roach to defend, as long as the Adept can traded out slowly.
Not entirely sure I buy Reynor's infestor ling style. It must work sometimes if he keeps going for it, but even after landing better fungles than he should be able to against a player of Clem's caliber, he still lost pretty convincingly in game 4. I feel like roach ravager syncs up much better with infestors because fungled marines don't trade horribly against pure ling.
Counterpoint is that spending gas on roach ravager slows down ultralisks, but the way Shin played infestors against Clem in Dallas looks much more convincing.
On July 11 2025 21:35 WombaT wrote: Classic’s looking pretty dang scary last few PvT series of his that I’ve seen
I had the games on in the background while working but went back to re-watch. Classic played solid, but Cure was just playing way too sloppy (games 3 and 4 especially).. going from near perfect positions to absolutely crumbling. It's pretty wild how good he looks in TvZ in contrast to TvP .
I'm hoping we get a Classic v Clem runback otherwise I just imagine we'll get a re-run of what we just saw since it's unlikely Shin makes it through the meatgrinder.
Game 1 was the best that Cure could have done in TvP, but one bad fight and its gg for him. That game is the example imo when people bringing up macro TvP isnt looking good for Terran. Game 3 and 4 Cure just making mistake that end the game early.
On July 11 2025 21:35 WombaT wrote: Classic’s looking pretty dang scary last few PvT series of his that I’ve seen
I had the games on in the background while working but went back to re-watch. Classic played solid, but Cure was just playing way too sloppy (games 3 and 4 especially).. going from near perfect positions to absolutely crumbling. It's pretty wild how good he looks in TvZ in contrast to TvP .
I'm hoping we get a Classic v Clem runback otherwise I just imagine we'll get a re-run of what we just saw since it's unlikely Shin makes it through the meatgrinder.
Cure was a TvP specialist though, the matchup has Just become hellish nowadays it seems.
On July 11 2025 21:35 WombaT wrote: Classic’s looking pretty dang scary last few PvT series of his that I’ve seen
I had the games on in the background while working but went back to re-watch. Classic played solid, but Cure was just playing way too sloppy (games 3 and 4 especially).. going from near perfect positions to absolutely crumbling. It's pretty wild how good he looks in TvZ in contrast to TvP .
I'm hoping we get a Classic v Clem runback otherwise I just imagine we'll get a re-run of what we just saw since it's unlikely Shin makes it through the meatgrinder.
Cure was a TvP specialist though, the matchup has Just become hellish nowadays it seems.
I think two years ago you could say that about most Terrans to be fair. For now I'm still leaning it just being growing pains after it's now no longer obviously T favored.
Past the first week in May Cure has practically lost every TvP series he's played in.
My view of the current state: In most cases for normal game pace it's about a 10 supply nerf for T on first max. (It's batshit crazy that would have been 5 extra ghosts pre-patch). This also gets less impactful in resource banked games due to mules (which I still firmly believe have no place in the game). Energy recharge and slightly more resilient Colossus vs EMP were the only impactful changes for P in the matchup. Disruptors got effectively removed (good change overall), along with battery overcharge (was a band-aid solution of an ability to begin with, so good riddance.)
My big gripe with the matchup is that it's more about who doesn't make a mistake rather than being "better." Outside of that it's just trying to leverage abusive strategies like Blink sniping stim / first HT push with low to no ghost, or Marine tank (+scv) timings / mass Liberator suffocation.
Why? Cure TvP is in a dumpster at the moment, Clem would beat him soundly. Byun TvP actually is pretty good, I would think him as the next best TvP behind Clem/Maru.
Some solid games from Cure but should have stuck to the committed two base pushes.
It felt like Clem was uncharacteristically sloppy at times, but in the end that didn't matter. Surprised it took him until G5 to play storm when it seems to be so hyper effective right now. I wonder if sometimes he's so happy playing against splash that he forgets how effective it is vs everyone else who doesn't have his control
On July 12 2025 21:31 Asha wrote: Some solid games from Cure but should have stuck to the committed two base pushes.
Clem was uncharacteristically sloppy at times, but in the end didn't matter. Surprised it took him until G5 to play storm when it seems to be so hyper effective right now. I wonder if sometimes he's so happy playing against splash that he forgets how effective it is vs everyone else who doesn't have his control
the 2-base all-in from terran against protoss has gained a weird status from commentators and observers (most of whom don't even play the game) as being some kind of magical solution that is supposed to keep the match-up in balance - even though Byun, Cure and Clem time and time again refuse to play that way. these same commentators tout Cure as a "TvP specialist" in the same breath as they tell him how the matchup is supposed to be played!
next time you ask, "why isn't Cure all-inning like that one time months ago when he did it against hero??" maybe stop to consider that maybe the world-class pro terran knows better than you do. Cure's builds and decisions speak for themself. it's evident from watching Cure's play that he is not confident to frequently 2-base all-in against protoss
it might work for the shadow terran who doesn't broadcast his play all the time (Maru). it also might work on ladder. it won't work if you're in the pro circuit and revealing your play every week like Cure and Byun are doing. the only reason terran all-ins work against protoss is surprise
don't take this personally - because it's not just a rebuttal against you, but a feeling that has grown in me after reading so many comments on forums or reddit or twitch chat that goes along the lines of "the professional gamer should have done this". no, you don't know better than Cure. he plays the way he does for a good reason.
feeding the misconception that 2-base terran should be meta and that so many pro terrans are misunderstanding the matchup is just incredibly ignorant and seems like a sorry excuse for what the matchup is really like. what you see is what you get. TvP is brutal. it's all about terran getting hard-contained, out-expanded and dying by a thousand cuts, unless you can pull off a surgical strike attack that immediately ends the game. 2-base allin isn't a reliable way to win because it's easy to scout for and easy to crush if you know it's coming. the 2-base terran all-ins that were strong no matter if you saw them coming have long been patched out of the game
On July 11 2025 20:26 tigera6 wrote: back to more 2-base all-in, I guess, most Terran cant play like Clem and Maru in straight up macro TvP.
yes, and zergs still getting rekt unless your name is Serral. More news @ 11.
We had 4 Zergs in top 8 at Dallas, and Rogue made GSL Final, they seems to be doing pretty well.
Yes and Maru won that same Dallas and Clem is always farming. What is your point? Top 4 Zerg are just as much an exception as top 4 Terran. It's a good comparison just let it be.
I think Cure really needs to revisit his hotkeys and control groups if he plans on continuing long term. (Either that or the age stick has delivered a knockout blow).
It might not be even that but I can't put my finger on it, he's literally full running from engagements where he can trade more than cost effectively and in some cases win them outright. (Not just in this series but several others as well) If you're mentally defeated enough where you aren't even counting units then maybe it's best to take a break and reset.
On July 13 2025 19:43 Sent. wrote: What's up with those very long commercial breaks between games? Are they having technical issues or is this something designed to uhh build tension?
Tasteless needs time to do a line of coke and a shot of tequila between each match
So far today less than 50% of the broadcast has been games, not a good look imo. Any reason why breaks are 7 minutes long? Having content during break would be appreciated, interview with players, Q&A to promote the Patreon, anything really.
I wish the broadcast schedule was improved for season 2 onwards, having 9 days of broadcast for only 14 online matches is way too much, no one wants to only watch a Bo7 for the winner bracket final or the grand final.
On July 13 2025 20:12 Aeromi wrote: So far today less than 50% of the broadcast has been games, not a good look imo. Any reason why breaks are 7 minutes long? Having content during break would be appreciated, interview with players, Q&A to promote the Patreon, anything really.
I wish the broadcast schedule was improved for season 2 onwards, having 9 days of broadcast for only 14 online matches is way too much, no one wants to only watch a Bo7 for the winner bracket final or the grand final.
Downtime stuff would be great, definitely not a deal-breaker for me but a pretty obvious area for improvement.
Broadcast schedule, I’m not sure tbh. I think we had quite a few stomps, so it can feel underwhelming if it’s the day’s only match.
On the flipside, a bit more prep time is there, and I definitely think GSL has suffered as a spectacle for me since they crammed the playoffs into a single day.
Versus a weekender, I don’t have to give up big chunks of a Friday-Sunday, which is nice. But I think maybe the cadence could be a little better for sure.
Regardless, for me a solid first effort and some great performances from the players
On July 13 2025 20:12 Aeromi wrote: So far today less than 50% of the broadcast has been games, not a good look imo. Any reason why breaks are 7 minutes long? Having content during break would be appreciated, interview with players, Q&A to promote the Patreon, anything really.
I wish the broadcast schedule was improved for season 2 onwards, having 9 days of broadcast for only 14 online matches is way too much, no one wants to only watch a Bo7 for the winner bracket final or the grand final.
Downtime stuff would be great, definitely not a deal-breaker for me but a pretty obvious area for improvement.
Broadcast schedule, I’m not sure tbh. I think we had quite a few stomps, so it can feel underwhelming if it’s the day’s only match.
On the flipside, a bit more prep time is there, and I definitely think GSL has suffered as a spectacle for me since they crammed the playoffs into a single day.
Versus a weekender, I don’t have to give up big chunks of a Friday-Sunday, which is nice. But I think maybe the cadence could be a little better for sure.
Regardless, for me a solid first effort and some great performances from the players
Regarding downtime stuff, if PiG who is doing the production by himself can do it I believe a team of 4 people can also do it too. Also to have a better production value it should be mandatory to have player cameras, PiG does it as well and players are used to do it.
Broadcast schedule could be 10 days of broadcast if it was offline but given its online and a Bo5 usually takes 1 hour it's madness to only have 2 Bo5 per day. You want to have longer stream to increase the viewership of each broadcast. Having a broadcast for sometime a single online Bo7 is weird and is not the right way to increase the quality of your broadcast.
I understand having a longer event vs weekend event but the scene is way too small to have longer events as there are not enough top players anymore. 13 days of broadcast total seems quite a lot for a 16 players event, it could easily be reduced to around 10 days (4 groups + 6 days for playoffs).
Overall I'm happy to see more SC2 events but there are significant improvements than can be reached for the second season onwards and hopefully there will be a breakdown of the P&L of since the first month of the Patreon start date.
Never seen Clem losing so many full medivacs ever. Classic's game senso off the charts. Classic really got into Clem's head there. And even when Clem was ahead later in the series he really didn't know what to do it seems.
EPT
RSL Revival/Season 1
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/K362s5L/sc2-stats.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/QFVSFmQP/IMG-20250520-124554-048.jpg)
