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On February 11 2024 07:12 kAra wrote:
the handfull protoss players left playing in tournaments should consider switching race if they plan to win something in the future
it wouldn't work because all the best pros just happened to pick z or t. Just by chance. All of them.
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On February 11 2024 07:09 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 07:07 geokilla wrote:On February 11 2024 07:06 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:02 angry_maia wrote:
look, i'm not trying to balance whine. But it feels like every year Toss just gets wiped from the tournament so early. I just hate this. I guess like half the people on here just want toss deleted as a race and are happy to watch tvzs all day, but idk I always liked the idea of 3 races.
Toss just is so weak right now (not balance, but rather rosters). like Cure Maru Clem Byun even Gabe can all be competitive with the best tosses in the world. Meanwhile no one but hero/maxpax really has a chance against them, and maxpax won't play. Protoss isn't designed to be consistent at the top level above a certain skill level. Needs a redesign to its core mechanics to change that. Protoss is designed to win ladder matches, not tournaments. Atrocious series by herO "Protoss is weak" MaxPax is the far superior PvT player. Haters are blind Unless MaxPax plays offline, his online results are meaningless. Do you want to talk about online/offline performance or about game balance and Protoss performance and potential? We don't live in some mystery world online or simulation. MaxPax shows what Protoss is capable of and herO can play way better PvT than this. Protoss does underperform but this isn't purely based on "protoss weak" and anyone interested in actually discussing this matter would understand.
Both can be true. History has shown some players who were godly online struggled offline due to the pressure, LAN environment, and just players playing differently because they were hiding strategies online for example. Protoss players in general are weaker due to the race being weak, but also because we don't have the very best Protoss players like we have the very best Zerg and Terran players at the moment. Once Serral and Dark retires later this year, are we going to buff Zerg because only Reynor and Solar are left to carry?
On February 11 2024 07:11 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 07:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:06 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:02 angry_maia wrote:
look, i'm not trying to balance whine. But it feels like every year Toss just gets wiped from the tournament so early. I just hate this. I guess like half the people on here just want toss deleted as a race and are happy to watch tvzs all day, but idk I always liked the idea of 3 races.
Toss just is so weak right now (not balance, but rather rosters). like Cure Maru Clem Byun even Gabe can all be competitive with the best tosses in the world. Meanwhile no one but hero/maxpax really has a chance against them, and maxpax won't play. Protoss isn't designed to be consistent at the top level above a certain skill level. Needs a redesign to its core mechanics to change that. Protoss is designed to win ladder matches, not tournaments. Atrocious series by herO "Protoss is weak" MaxPax is the far superior PvT player. Haters are blind Wish we could prove that Take. I really do. But as long as Maxpax doesn't play real tournaments how good he is or isn't is pretty irrelevant. His results are only irrelevant in terms of rating his performance, not of rating Protoss potential. I get the same stupid argumentation about HSC. "Players don't take HSC serious". Pros take tournaments serious, period. Is anyone here saying Maru doesn't care losing to MaxPax 3-4? Clem isn't? Ill quit this discussion. No one that is actually interested in it would actually engage here unfortunately.
I don't think playing in HSC while drunk is considered taking it seriously.... Rotti has shared countless stories of players playing drunk and NOT taking it seriously.
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On February 11 2024 07:14 JoeCool wrote:
Head: Serral, Dark, Maru, Cure.
Heart: Clem and Serral (fine with either tbh), SHIN, Byun, Heromarine.
Match 1 I think is slightly Serral favored, maybe 60-40. I'd say Serral wins 3-1 or 3-2.
Match 2 is a coinflip. 50/50 Dark/Shin. ZvZ shenanigans ensue.
Match 3: is Maru favored i think 65-35. Maru wins 3-1 or 3-2.
Match 4: is pretty even but only because HeroMarine's TvT has looked really good this tournament. Cure has the advantage in pedigree. I think Cure wins 3-2.
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On February 11 2024 07:16 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 07:09 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:07 geokilla wrote:On February 11 2024 07:06 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:02 angry_maia wrote:
look, i'm not trying to balance whine. But it feels like every year Toss just gets wiped from the tournament so early. I just hate this. I guess like half the people on here just want toss deleted as a race and are happy to watch tvzs all day, but idk I always liked the idea of 3 races.
Toss just is so weak right now (not balance, but rather rosters). like Cure Maru Clem Byun even Gabe can all be competitive with the best tosses in the world. Meanwhile no one but hero/maxpax really has a chance against them, and maxpax won't play. Protoss isn't designed to be consistent at the top level above a certain skill level. Needs a redesign to its core mechanics to change that. Protoss is designed to win ladder matches, not tournaments. Atrocious series by herO "Protoss is weak" MaxPax is the far superior PvT player. Haters are blind Unless MaxPax plays offline, his online results are meaningless. Do you want to talk about online/offline performance or about game balance and Protoss performance and potential? We don't live in some mystery world online or simulation. MaxPax shows what Protoss is capable of and herO can play way better PvT than this. Protoss does underperform but this isn't purely based on "protoss weak" and anyone interested in actually discussing this matter would understand. Both can be true. History has shown some players who were godly online struggled offline due to the pressure, LAN environment, and just players playing differently because they were hiding strategies online for example. Protoss players in general are weaker due to the race being weak, but also because we don't have the very best Protoss players like we have the very best Zerg and Terran players at the moment. Once Serral and Dark retires later this year, are we going to buff Zerg because only Reynor and Solar are left to carry? Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 07:11 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:06 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:02 angry_maia wrote:
look, i'm not trying to balance whine. But it feels like every year Toss just gets wiped from the tournament so early. I just hate this. I guess like half the people on here just want toss deleted as a race and are happy to watch tvzs all day, but idk I always liked the idea of 3 races.
Toss just is so weak right now (not balance, but rather rosters). like Cure Maru Clem Byun even Gabe can all be competitive with the best tosses in the world. Meanwhile no one but hero/maxpax really has a chance against them, and maxpax won't play. Protoss isn't designed to be consistent at the top level above a certain skill level. Needs a redesign to its core mechanics to change that. Protoss is designed to win ladder matches, not tournaments. Atrocious series by herO "Protoss is weak" MaxPax is the far superior PvT player. Haters are blind Wish we could prove that Take. I really do. But as long as Maxpax doesn't play real tournaments how good he is or isn't is pretty irrelevant. His results are only irrelevant in terms of rating his performance, not of rating Protoss potential. I get the same stupid argumentation about HSC. "Players don't take HSC serious". Pros take tournaments serious, period. Is anyone here saying Maru doesn't care losing to MaxPax 3-4? Clem isn't? Ill quit this discussion. No one that is actually interested in it would actually engage here unfortunately. I don't think playing in HSC while drunk is considered taking it seriously.... Rotti has shared countless stories of players playing drunk and NOT taking it seriously.
Rotti will also attest to players that are in actual competition (or being capable of placing highly) not drinking and going to bed early. Its such an offending statement. Anyone who saw HSC / the games is aware they were dead serious. I'll argue HSC had some of the best series of all time in SC2.
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On February 11 2024 07:16 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 07:09 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:07 geokilla wrote:On February 11 2024 07:06 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:02 angry_maia wrote:
look, i'm not trying to balance whine. But it feels like every year Toss just gets wiped from the tournament so early. I just hate this. I guess like half the people on here just want toss deleted as a race and are happy to watch tvzs all day, but idk I always liked the idea of 3 races.
Toss just is so weak right now (not balance, but rather rosters). like Cure Maru Clem Byun even Gabe can all be competitive with the best tosses in the world. Meanwhile no one but hero/maxpax really has a chance against them, and maxpax won't play. Protoss isn't designed to be consistent at the top level above a certain skill level. Needs a redesign to its core mechanics to change that. Protoss is designed to win ladder matches, not tournaments. Atrocious series by herO "Protoss is weak" MaxPax is the far superior PvT player. Haters are blind Unless MaxPax plays offline, his online results are meaningless. Do you want to talk about online/offline performance or about game balance and Protoss performance and potential? We don't live in some mystery world online or simulation. MaxPax shows what Protoss is capable of and herO can play way better PvT than this. Protoss does underperform but this isn't purely based on "protoss weak" and anyone interested in actually discussing this matter would understand. Once Serral and Dark retires later this year, are we going to buff Zerg because only Reynor and Solar are left to carry?
If the others don't win, yes, obviously. But hopefully we'll be watching another game by then.
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On February 11 2024 07:14 JoeCool wrote:
Head: Serral, Dark, Maru, Cure.
Heart: Clem and Serral (fine with either tbh), SHIN, Byun, Heromarine.
It looks more likelty to go that 1st row into semis, however it can go the opposite - that's not far less likely ;P
I am reschedulnig my day to try to see most of quarterfinals hehehe :D
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So IEM finals and then Superbowl tomorrow. Long day of sports watching.
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We can argue about potential all we want, and I somewhat agree in the sense that if you play protoss absolutely perfectly with 0 mistakes it can be very powerful. But this is a game played by humans and mistakes by protoss seem to be punished 10x worse than a similar mistake from another race, that is the main protoss weakness, well other than PR because I still don't understand how it kept getting nerfed with terrible tournament results.
Protoss hasn't won an esl pro tour tournament since Nov 2022 (that includes the regionals that maxpax plays in,) I suspect its not going to win one this year at all, in the end results matter and something should be done to change those results. I refuse to believe all the protoss pros are just worse than zerg and terran.
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For Toss fans we can now only wait for Parting to come back.... he will patch this game! :D
Zest might follow....if Stats gets his form up there might just be a Toss era ....dream heheh
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Any recommendations for today's games? I caught the last two series.
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On February 11 2024 07:29 Zaros wrote:
We can argue about potential all we want, and I somewhat agree in the sense that if you play protoss absolutely perfectly with 0 mistakes it can be very powerful. But this is a game played by humans and mistakes by protoss seem to be punished 10x worse than a similar mistake from another race, that is the main protoss weakness, well other than PR because I still don't understand how it kept getting nerfed with terrible tournament results.
Protoss hasn't won an esl pro tour tournament since Nov 2022 (that includes the regionals that maxpax plays in,) I suspect its not going to win one this year at all, in the end results matter and something should be done to change those results. I refuse to believe all the protoss pros are just worse than zerg and terran.
I don't disagree that Protoss design is flawed. Unfortunately no balance patch in the world will correct the design aspect of Protoss. Protoss is either the unbreakable wall or the wet-paper defence as long as it relies on strong AoE/tech to ultimately trade efficient.
Protoss has a low skill floor which is easily reached thus a lot of Protoss can get to an annoyingly good level and are hard to beat for equally good players of Zerg/Terran but at the highest level there is little to no room to push skill ceiling. Units lack micro capability and it relies heavily on AoE tech which either works well or doesnt at all.
My only "balance" or re-design proposition would be to heavily rework Protoss to be way more gateway based and a lot less robo based to rely on AoE. Buff gateway in a way that goes online after the earlier/midgame so other races don't straight up die but this would have to be a huge design-change across full matchups.
Thats unfortunately very unrealistic. A straight buff of Protoss will help elevate worse players to better rankings while devaluating better Zerg/Terran. That would probably result in a better distribution of races across Top 16/12/8 but its ultimately a bad solution since it doesn't reflect skill.
Unfortunately we will never reach a good basis on this discussion as emotions are involved and not a ton of people are willing to try to work on actual balance/design but rather complain.
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On February 11 2024 07:30 FataLe wrote:
Any recommendations for today's games? I caught the last two series.
Clem vs Solar was really good.
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On February 11 2024 07:30 FataLe wrote:
Any recommendations for today's games? I caught the last two series.
Clem's series, vs Bunny and vs Solar.
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On February 11 2024 07:20 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 07:16 geokilla wrote:On February 11 2024 07:09 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:07 geokilla wrote:On February 11 2024 07:06 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:02 angry_maia wrote:
look, i'm not trying to balance whine. But it feels like every year Toss just gets wiped from the tournament so early. I just hate this. I guess like half the people on here just want toss deleted as a race and are happy to watch tvzs all day, but idk I always liked the idea of 3 races.
Toss just is so weak right now (not balance, but rather rosters). like Cure Maru Clem Byun even Gabe can all be competitive with the best tosses in the world. Meanwhile no one but hero/maxpax really has a chance against them, and maxpax won't play. Protoss isn't designed to be consistent at the top level above a certain skill level. Needs a redesign to its core mechanics to change that. Protoss is designed to win ladder matches, not tournaments. Atrocious series by herO "Protoss is weak" MaxPax is the far superior PvT player. Haters are blind Unless MaxPax plays offline, his online results are meaningless. Do you want to talk about online/offline performance or about game balance and Protoss performance and potential? We don't live in some mystery world online or simulation. MaxPax shows what Protoss is capable of and herO can play way better PvT than this. Protoss does underperform but this isn't purely based on "protoss weak" and anyone interested in actually discussing this matter would understand. Both can be true. History has shown some players who were godly online struggled offline due to the pressure, LAN environment, and just players playing differently because they were hiding strategies online for example. Protoss players in general are weaker due to the race being weak, but also because we don't have the very best Protoss players like we have the very best Zerg and Terran players at the moment. Once Serral and Dark retires later this year, are we going to buff Zerg because only Reynor and Solar are left to carry? On February 11 2024 07:11 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:06 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:02 angry_maia wrote:
look, i'm not trying to balance whine. But it feels like every year Toss just gets wiped from the tournament so early. I just hate this. I guess like half the people on here just want toss deleted as a race and are happy to watch tvzs all day, but idk I always liked the idea of 3 races.
Toss just is so weak right now (not balance, but rather rosters). like Cure Maru Clem Byun even Gabe can all be competitive with the best tosses in the world. Meanwhile no one but hero/maxpax really has a chance against them, and maxpax won't play. Protoss isn't designed to be consistent at the top level above a certain skill level. Needs a redesign to its core mechanics to change that. Protoss is designed to win ladder matches, not tournaments. Atrocious series by herO "Protoss is weak" MaxPax is the far superior PvT player. Haters are blind Wish we could prove that Take. I really do. But as long as Maxpax doesn't play real tournaments how good he is or isn't is pretty irrelevant. His results are only irrelevant in terms of rating his performance, not of rating Protoss potential. I get the same stupid argumentation about HSC. "Players don't take HSC serious". Pros take tournaments serious, period. Is anyone here saying Maru doesn't care losing to MaxPax 3-4? Clem isn't? Ill quit this discussion. No one that is actually interested in it would actually engage here unfortunately. I don't think playing in HSC while drunk is considered taking it seriously.... Rotti has shared countless stories of players playing drunk and NOT taking it seriously. Rotti will also attest to players that are in actual competition (or being capable of placing highly) not drinking and going to bed early. Its such an offending statement. Anyone who saw HSC / the games is aware they were dead serious. I'll argue HSC had some of the best series of all time in SC2.
Of course the players that show up will give their all to win it at that moment but I think there's still a difference compared to a tournament like IEM Katowice where everyone practices 200% in the weeks leading up to this. Like Reynor and Rogue are two famous examples for players who amp it up for the big events.
Regarding MaxPax I don't understand how we can still pretend the reason Protoss isn't winning anything is because he isn't playing offline when he participates in plenty online premier tournaments and doesn't even win any of them.
At last Masters Coliseum he lost 0-4 to Dark.
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On February 11 2024 07:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 07:20 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:16 geokilla wrote:On February 11 2024 07:09 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:07 geokilla wrote:On February 11 2024 07:06 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:02 angry_maia wrote:
look, i'm not trying to balance whine. But it feels like every year Toss just gets wiped from the tournament so early. I just hate this. I guess like half the people on here just want toss deleted as a race and are happy to watch tvzs all day, but idk I always liked the idea of 3 races.
Toss just is so weak right now (not balance, but rather rosters). like Cure Maru Clem Byun even Gabe can all be competitive with the best tosses in the world. Meanwhile no one but hero/maxpax really has a chance against them, and maxpax won't play. Protoss isn't designed to be consistent at the top level above a certain skill level. Needs a redesign to its core mechanics to change that. Protoss is designed to win ladder matches, not tournaments. Atrocious series by herO "Protoss is weak" MaxPax is the far superior PvT player. Haters are blind Unless MaxPax plays offline, his online results are meaningless. Do you want to talk about online/offline performance or about game balance and Protoss performance and potential? We don't live in some mystery world online or simulation. MaxPax shows what Protoss is capable of and herO can play way better PvT than this. Protoss does underperform but this isn't purely based on "protoss weak" and anyone interested in actually discussing this matter would understand. Both can be true. History has shown some players who were godly online struggled offline due to the pressure, LAN environment, and just players playing differently because they were hiding strategies online for example. Protoss players in general are weaker due to the race being weak, but also because we don't have the very best Protoss players like we have the very best Zerg and Terran players at the moment. Once Serral and Dark retires later this year, are we going to buff Zerg because only Reynor and Solar are left to carry? On February 11 2024 07:11 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:06 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:02 angry_maia wrote:
look, i'm not trying to balance whine. But it feels like every year Toss just gets wiped from the tournament so early. I just hate this. I guess like half the people on here just want toss deleted as a race and are happy to watch tvzs all day, but idk I always liked the idea of 3 races.
Toss just is so weak right now (not balance, but rather rosters). like Cure Maru Clem Byun even Gabe can all be competitive with the best tosses in the world. Meanwhile no one but hero/maxpax really has a chance against them, and maxpax won't play. Protoss isn't designed to be consistent at the top level above a certain skill level. Needs a redesign to its core mechanics to change that. Protoss is designed to win ladder matches, not tournaments. Atrocious series by herO "Protoss is weak" MaxPax is the far superior PvT player. Haters are blind Wish we could prove that Take. I really do. But as long as Maxpax doesn't play real tournaments how good he is or isn't is pretty irrelevant. His results are only irrelevant in terms of rating his performance, not of rating Protoss potential. I get the same stupid argumentation about HSC. "Players don't take HSC serious". Pros take tournaments serious, period. Is anyone here saying Maru doesn't care losing to MaxPax 3-4? Clem isn't? Ill quit this discussion. No one that is actually interested in it would actually engage here unfortunately. I don't think playing in HSC while drunk is considered taking it seriously.... Rotti has shared countless stories of players playing drunk and NOT taking it seriously. Rotti will also attest to players that are in actual competition (or being capable of placing highly) not drinking and going to bed early. Its such an offending statement. Anyone who saw HSC / the games is aware they were dead serious. I'll argue HSC had some of the best series of all time in SC2. Of course the players that show up will give their all to win it at that moment but I think there's still a difference compared to a tournament like IEM Katowice where everyone practices 200% in the weeks leading up to this. Like Reynor and Rogue are two famous examples for players who amp it up for the big events. Regarding MaxPax I don't understand how we can still pretend the reason Protoss isn't winning anything is because he isn't playing offline when he participates in plenty online premier tournaments and doesn't even win any of them. At last Masters Coliseum he lost 0-4 to Dark.
In my opinion, big online tournaments don't hold the same significance as LAN, partially due to ping and time zone differences. During COVID, didn't players say Zerg had an advantage online due to the nature of the race being less ping dependent compared to Terran? It's a lot more difficult microing Terran and Protoss units compared to the swarm style that is Zerg.
On February 11 2024 07:37 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 07:29 Zaros wrote:
We can argue about potential all we want, and I somewhat agree in the sense that if you play protoss absolutely perfectly with 0 mistakes it can be very powerful. But this is a game played by humans and mistakes by protoss seem to be punished 10x worse than a similar mistake from another race, that is the main protoss weakness, well other than PR because I still don't understand how it kept getting nerfed with terrible tournament results.
Protoss hasn't won an esl pro tour tournament since Nov 2022 (that includes the regionals that maxpax plays in,) I suspect its not going to win one this year at all, in the end results matter and something should be done to change those results. I refuse to believe all the protoss pros are just worse than zerg and terran. I don't disagree that Protoss design is flawed. Unfortunately no balance patch in the world will correct the design aspect of Protoss. Protoss is either the unbreakable wall or the wet-paper defence as long as it relies on strong AoE/tech to ultimately trade efficient. Protoss has a low skill floor which is easily reached thus a lot of Protoss can get to an annoyingly good level and are hard to beat for equally good players of Zerg/Terran but at the highest level there is little to no room to push skill ceiling. Units lack micro capability and it relies heavily on AoE tech which either works well or doesnt at all. My only "balance" or re-design proposition would be to heavily rework Protoss to be way more gateway based and a lot less robo based to rely on AoE. Buff gateway in a way that goes online after the earlier/midgame so other races don't straight up die but this would have to be a huge design-change across full matchups. Thats unfortunately very unrealistic. A straight buff of Protoss will help elevate worse players to better rankings while devaluating better Zerg/Terran. That would probably result in a better distribution of races across Top 16/12/8 but its ultimately a bad solution since it doesn't reflect skill. Unfortunately we will never reach a good basis on this discussion as emotions are involved and not a ton of people are willing to try to work on actual balance/design but rather complain.
There's actually quite a few people who have made suggestions on how to improve Protoss. The pros and people in the scene simply ignore it.
For example, Colossi can get a small buff to base attack damage while nerfing the bonus damage to light units to compensate. This immediately makes them slightly better against Marauders and Roaches while still packing the same punch to Marines and Zerglings.
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On February 11 2024 07:37 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 07:29 Zaros wrote:
We can argue about potential all we want, and I somewhat agree in the sense that if you play protoss absolutely perfectly with 0 mistakes it can be very powerful. But this is a game played by humans and mistakes by protoss seem to be punished 10x worse than a similar mistake from another race, that is the main protoss weakness, well other than PR because I still don't understand how it kept getting nerfed with terrible tournament results.
Protoss hasn't won an esl pro tour tournament since Nov 2022 (that includes the regionals that maxpax plays in,) I suspect its not going to win one this year at all, in the end results matter and something should be done to change those results. I refuse to believe all the protoss pros are just worse than zerg and terran. I don't disagree that Protoss design is flawed. Unfortunately no balance patch in the world will correct the design aspect of Protoss. Protoss is either the unbreakable wall or the wet-paper defence as long as it relies on strong AoE/tech to ultimately trade efficient. Protoss has a low skill floor which is easily reached thus a lot of Protoss can get to an annoyingly good level and are hard to beat for equally good players of Zerg/Terran but at the highest level there is little to no room to push skill ceiling. Units lack micro capability and it relies heavily on AoE tech which either works well or doesnt at all. My only "balance" or re-design proposition would be to heavily rework Protoss to be way more gateway based and a lot less robo based to rely on AoE. Buff gateway in a way that goes online after the earlier/midgame so other races don't straight up die but this would have to be a huge design-change across full matchups. Thats unfortunately very unrealistic. A straight buff of Protoss will help elevate worse players to better rankings while devaluating better Zerg/Terran. That would probably result in a better distribution of races across Top 16/12/8 but its ultimately a bad solution since it doesn't reflect skill. Unfortunately we will never reach a good basis on this discussion as emotions are involved and not a ton of people are willing to try to work on actual balance/design but rather complain.
Your making an assumption that the terran/zerg in the top 16 have higher skill than the protoss which didn't make it. I don't think you can ever really know that, weight of numbers suggests there should be a broadly even distribution in skill between races.
Ultimately I think results matter and there should be a buff, if someone like cure loses out so we can have some protoss actually threaten a tournament win then tough for him, others have benefitted from playing strong races over the last few years.
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On February 11 2024 07:40 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 07:20 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:16 geokilla wrote:On February 11 2024 07:09 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:07 geokilla wrote:On February 11 2024 07:06 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:02 angry_maia wrote:
look, i'm not trying to balance whine. But it feels like every year Toss just gets wiped from the tournament so early. I just hate this. I guess like half the people on here just want toss deleted as a race and are happy to watch tvzs all day, but idk I always liked the idea of 3 races.
Toss just is so weak right now (not balance, but rather rosters). like Cure Maru Clem Byun even Gabe can all be competitive with the best tosses in the world. Meanwhile no one but hero/maxpax really has a chance against them, and maxpax won't play. Protoss isn't designed to be consistent at the top level above a certain skill level. Needs a redesign to its core mechanics to change that. Protoss is designed to win ladder matches, not tournaments. Atrocious series by herO "Protoss is weak" MaxPax is the far superior PvT player. Haters are blind Unless MaxPax plays offline, his online results are meaningless. Do you want to talk about online/offline performance or about game balance and Protoss performance and potential? We don't live in some mystery world online or simulation. MaxPax shows what Protoss is capable of and herO can play way better PvT than this. Protoss does underperform but this isn't purely based on "protoss weak" and anyone interested in actually discussing this matter would understand. Both can be true. History has shown some players who were godly online struggled offline due to the pressure, LAN environment, and just players playing differently because they were hiding strategies online for example. Protoss players in general are weaker due to the race being weak, but also because we don't have the very best Protoss players like we have the very best Zerg and Terran players at the moment. Once Serral and Dark retires later this year, are we going to buff Zerg because only Reynor and Solar are left to carry? On February 11 2024 07:11 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:08 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:06 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 07:02 angry_maia wrote:
look, i'm not trying to balance whine. But it feels like every year Toss just gets wiped from the tournament so early. I just hate this. I guess like half the people on here just want toss deleted as a race and are happy to watch tvzs all day, but idk I always liked the idea of 3 races.
Toss just is so weak right now (not balance, but rather rosters). like Cure Maru Clem Byun even Gabe can all be competitive with the best tosses in the world. Meanwhile no one but hero/maxpax really has a chance against them, and maxpax won't play. Protoss isn't designed to be consistent at the top level above a certain skill level. Needs a redesign to its core mechanics to change that. Protoss is designed to win ladder matches, not tournaments. Atrocious series by herO "Protoss is weak" MaxPax is the far superior PvT player. Haters are blind Wish we could prove that Take. I really do. But as long as Maxpax doesn't play real tournaments how good he is or isn't is pretty irrelevant. His results are only irrelevant in terms of rating his performance, not of rating Protoss potential. I get the same stupid argumentation about HSC. "Players don't take HSC serious". Pros take tournaments serious, period. Is anyone here saying Maru doesn't care losing to MaxPax 3-4? Clem isn't? Ill quit this discussion. No one that is actually interested in it would actually engage here unfortunately. I don't think playing in HSC while drunk is considered taking it seriously.... Rotti has shared countless stories of players playing drunk and NOT taking it seriously. Rotti will also attest to players that are in actual competition (or being capable of placing highly) not drinking and going to bed early. Its such an offending statement. Anyone who saw HSC / the games is aware they were dead serious. I'll argue HSC had some of the best series of all time in SC2. Of course the players that show up will give their all to win it at that moment but I think there's still a difference compared to a tournament like IEM Katowice where everyone practices 200% in the weeks leading up to this. Like Reynor and Rogue are two famous examples for players who amp it up for the big events. Regarding MaxPax I don't understand how we can still pretend the reason Protoss isn't winning anything is because he isn't playing offline when he participates in plenty online premier tournaments and doesn't even win any of them. At last Masters Coliseum he lost 0-4 to Dark.
Agreed. All indications are that maxpax is roughly at the same level as hero- there's no indication whatsoever to think that he would have done better. Make round of 12, sure. Round of 8? Maybe. Round of 4? Good luck.
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France12906 Posts
No Zest no hope for protoss, really. I mean herO wasn’t the best toss even before his military departure, he is a scarily good aggressive protoss but you can’t have all of your hopes into a single player
It’s very annoying to cheer for a race and that race has low representation, but unfortunately since there are so few top players left in the game, it’s bound to happen unless you make the race so overpowered that many protoss win
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On February 11 2024 08:01 Poopi wrote:
No Zest no hope for protoss, really. I mean herO wasn’t the best toss even before his military departure, he is a scarily good aggressive protoss but you can’t have all of your hopes into a single player
It’s very annoying to cheer for a race and that race has low representation, but unfortunately since there are so few top players left in the game, it’s bound to happen unless you make the race so overpowered that many protoss win
It's highly disappointing but we still have good storylines so it'll still be good to watch.
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On February 11 2024 07:51 Zaros wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 07:37 TaKeTV wrote:On February 11 2024 07:29 Zaros wrote:
We can argue about potential all we want, and I somewhat agree in the sense that if you play protoss absolutely perfectly with 0 mistakes it can be very powerful. But this is a game played by humans and mistakes by protoss seem to be punished 10x worse than a similar mistake from another race, that is the main protoss weakness, well other than PR because I still don't understand how it kept getting nerfed with terrible tournament results.
Protoss hasn't won an esl pro tour tournament since Nov 2022 (that includes the regionals that maxpax plays in,) I suspect its not going to win one this year at all, in the end results matter and something should be done to change those results. I refuse to believe all the protoss pros are just worse than zerg and terran. I don't disagree that Protoss design is flawed. Unfortunately no balance patch in the world will correct the design aspect of Protoss. Protoss is either the unbreakable wall or the wet-paper defence as long as it relies on strong AoE/tech to ultimately trade efficient. Protoss has a low skill floor which is easily reached thus a lot of Protoss can get to an annoyingly good level and are hard to beat for equally good players of Zerg/Terran but at the highest level there is little to no room to push skill ceiling. Units lack micro capability and it relies heavily on AoE tech which either works well or doesnt at all. My only "balance" or re-design proposition would be to heavily rework Protoss to be way more gateway based and a lot less robo based to rely on AoE. Buff gateway in a way that goes online after the earlier/midgame so other races don't straight up die but this would have to be a huge design-change across full matchups. Thats unfortunately very unrealistic. A straight buff of Protoss will help elevate worse players to better rankings while devaluating better Zerg/Terran. That would probably result in a better distribution of races across Top 16/12/8 but its ultimately a bad solution since it doesn't reflect skill. Unfortunately we will never reach a good basis on this discussion as emotions are involved and not a ton of people are willing to try to work on actual balance/design but rather complain. Your making an assumption that the terran/zerg in the top 16 have higher skill than the protoss which didn't make it. I don't think you can ever really know that, weight of numbers suggests there should be a broadly even distribution in skill between races. Ultimately I think results matter and there should be a buff, if someone like cure loses out so we can have some protoss actually threaten a tournament win then tough for him, others have benefitted from playing strong races over the last few years.
There is no real reason to believe a very hard to quantify value as "skill" should be equally distributed between all three races. Okay, you said "broadly distribution", but there is a "broadly distribution". If you look at the groupstage of IEM, more Protoss than Zerg players have qualified. And I feel like that when we talk about players "missing" from this event, we mostly talk about Protoss like Creator or Classic. Or is anyone truely missing Cham here?
But the higher up we go in the "skill ranking", it gets thinner and thinner. There is no real statistical reason to say that if there is a Zerg-GOATender and a Terran-GOATender there must also be a Protoss-GOATender. The only way you get that is if you balance around player-skill, which seems ludicrous to me. Because you would literally look at herO and go "so, how can we improve Protoss that this currently best protoss in the World can go 50/50 vs. Serral and Maru on any given day?"
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