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On February 11 2024 07:20 TaKeTV wrote:
Rotti will also attest to players that are in actual competition (or being capable of placing highly) not drinking and going to bed early. Its such an offending statement. Anyone who saw HSC / the games is aware they were dead serious.
I would never think any of the HSC games were not serious. The casting couch atmosphere is chill and fun though and it makes this tournament unique and the best along some IEM and old Tastosis' GSL. Take, do not ever doubt this!
On February 11 2024 07:20 TaKeTV wrote:
I'll argue HSC had some of the best series of all time in SC2.
I did memo some of the best games I've seen. HSC XX Parting vs Cure and another final with Parting among them :D
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On February 11 2024 08:01 Poopi wrote:
No Zest no hope for protoss, really. I mean herO wasn’t the best toss even before his military departure, he is a scarily good aggressive protoss but you can’t have all of your hopes into a single player
It’s very annoying to cheer for a race and that race has low representation, but unfortunately since there are so few top players left in the game, it’s bound to happen unless you make the race so overpowered that many protoss win
I mean let's just look at the field for a moment. We had herO, stats, Showtime, Astrea, Skillous, Firefly, Trigger and Cyan representing Protoss in this tournament.
Even with Showtime playing better than he has in a while that is a STEEP drop off in player caliber after herO. Stats if he was in his peak would be another strong player but anyone that's watched him lately can clearly tell he's nowhere near as good as he used to be since coming back from the military.
Meanwhile Classic who is as good or better than herO failed to qualify because he got beat in PvP in the qualifiers.
Then herO the lone protoss hope of the tournament, throws a series he was ahead in 2-1 because he loses to a proxy Marauder rush and because his hidden gold natural expansion gets scouted.
I'm sorry but it's really hard to look at that result and say that balance was the reason he lost. Protoss has a very limited group of high caliber players, and it isn't drawing any new ones in because it isn't designed in such a way where new talent is going to pick it as the "cheesy ladder race" over the other two options if they want to win tournaments.
If we want to fix this Protoss representation problem, we can do it in two ways. We can rig the game so that Protoss can win with lower tier players against higher tier ones, either through a very favorable map pool or through balance changes that make Protoss easier to win with with less skill attached (because it would be these same players winning, they wouldn't magically be getting any better just because the game balance shifts in their favor)
Or we can adjust Protoss at its core so that it is less gimmicky in a Bo1 and more stable and rewarding of consistent macro play. This would attract more fresh blood to the race that wants to win with skill alone instead of mindgames and build orders.
Those are the options. I know which one I'd rather do.
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Just for the record herO wasn't the "lone protoss hope" for the tournament. Everybody knew he would lose.
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Guys, be thankful that at least we had some Protoss in the tournament. There is a real option that the World Championship does not feature a single one of them.
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On February 11 2024 08:21 Nebuchad wrote:
Just for the record herO wasn't the "lone protoss hope" for the tournament. Everybody knew he would lose.
In the vote on this very page he had the same amount of votes as Dark. But sure, if you wanted to play the odds, you would go for Serral, Clem, Maru or Reynor...shocker.
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On February 11 2024 08:24 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 08:21 Nebuchad wrote:
Just for the record herO wasn't the "lone protoss hope" for the tournament. Everybody knew he would lose. In the vote on this very page he had the same amount of votes as Dark. But sure, if you wanted to play the odds, you would go for Serral, Clem, Maru or Reynor...shocker.
Passive aggressive agreement.
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On February 11 2024 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 08:01 Poopi wrote:
No Zest no hope for protoss, really. I mean herO wasn’t the best toss even before his military departure, he is a scarily good aggressive protoss but you can’t have all of your hopes into a single player
It’s very annoying to cheer for a race and that race has low representation, but unfortunately since there are so few top players left in the game, it’s bound to happen unless you make the race so overpowered that many protoss win I mean let's just look at the field for a moment. We had herO, stats, Showtime, Astrea, Skillous, Firefly, Trigger and Cyan representing Protoss in this tournament. Even with Showtime playing better than he has in a while that is a STEEP drop off in player caliber after herO. Stats if he was in his peak would be another strong player but anyone that's watched him lately can clearly tell he's nowhere near as good as he used to be since coming back from the military. Meanwhile Classic who is as good or better than herO failed to qualify because he got beat in PvP in the qualifiers. Then herO the lone protoss hope of the tournament, throws a series he was ahead in 2-1 because he loses to a proxy Marauder rush and because his hidden gold natural expansion gets scouted. I'm sorry but it's really hard to look at that result and say that balance was the reason he lost. Protoss has a very limited group of high caliber players, and it isn't drawing any new ones in because it isn't designed in such a way where new talent is going to pick it as the "cheesy ladder race" over the other two options if they want to win tournaments. If we want to fix this Protoss representation problem, we can do it in two ways. We can rig the game so that Protoss can win with lower tier players against higher tier ones, either through a very favorable map pool or through balance changes that make Protoss easier to win with with less skill attached (because it would be these same players winning, they wouldn't magically be getting any better just because the game balance shifts in their favor) Or we can adjust Protoss at its core so that it is less gimmicky in a Bo1 and more stable and rewarding of consistent macro play. This would attract more fresh blood to the race that wants to win with skill alone instead of mindgames and build orders. Those are the options. I know which one I'd rather do.
Weird how we have to do those justifications and mental gymnastics why Protoss lost every tournament for Protoss but not for the other races
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On February 11 2024 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:01 Poopi wrote:
No Zest no hope for protoss, really. I mean herO wasn’t the best toss even before his military departure, he is a scarily good aggressive protoss but you can’t have all of your hopes into a single player
It’s very annoying to cheer for a race and that race has low representation, but unfortunately since there are so few top players left in the game, it’s bound to happen unless you make the race so overpowered that many protoss win I mean let's just look at the field for a moment. We had herO, stats, Showtime, Astrea, Skillous, Firefly, Trigger and Cyan representing Protoss in this tournament. Even with Showtime playing better than he has in a while that is a STEEP drop off in player caliber after herO. Stats if he was in his peak would be another strong player but anyone that's watched him lately can clearly tell he's nowhere near as good as he used to be since coming back from the military. Meanwhile Classic who is as good or better than herO failed to qualify because he got beat in PvP in the qualifiers. Then herO the lone protoss hope of the tournament, throws a series he was ahead in 2-1 because he loses to a proxy Marauder rush and because his hidden gold natural expansion gets scouted. I'm sorry but it's really hard to look at that result and say that balance was the reason he lost. Protoss has a very limited group of high caliber players, and it isn't drawing any new ones in because it isn't designed in such a way where new talent is going to pick it as the "cheesy ladder race" over the other two options if they want to win tournaments. If we want to fix this Protoss representation problem, we can do it in two ways. We can rig the game so that Protoss can win with lower tier players against higher tier ones, either through a very favorable map pool or through balance changes that make Protoss easier to win with with less skill attached (because it would be these same players winning, they wouldn't magically be getting any better just because the game balance shifts in their favor) Or we can adjust Protoss at its core so that it is less gimmicky in a Bo1 and more stable and rewarding of consistent macro play. This would attract more fresh blood to the race that wants to win with skill alone instead of mindgames and build orders. Those are the options. I know which one I'd rather do. Weird how we have to do those justifications and mental gymnastics why Protoss lost every tournament for Protoss but not for the other races
Because Protoss's problems are VERY different from the problems Terran and Zerg have. They always have been.
But sure let's assume for a moment that balance was the reason Protoss is out of this tournament. I'd like to hear what kind of balance changes need to happen so that Skillous could have beat Dark today.
Or I'd like to hear how game balance is the reason why herO lost to Cure today.
If we want to complain about the patch and how it needlessly nerfed Protoss, then I'm all for that, but I'd ask you again, even if we rolled back every nerf Protoss received in the last two patch cycles. Would anything have changed in this tournament? Would Stats have advanced out of Group B? Would Showtime knock out Maru or Dark to get out of Group D? Would Skillous have beat Dark? Would herO have held that proxy Marauder rush?
When Zerg was OP, we all knew Zerg was OP and we all knew EXACTLY HOW Zerg was OP. We all knew what needed to be done, and how to reign them back in.
Weird how we don't see that same discussion about how and where Protoss needs help in these threads now. If it was just a balance problem that a single patch could fix, it's weird how no one can seem to suggest what exactly needs to be done to fix it. Just a lot of woe is Protoss.
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On February 11 2024 07:37 TaKeTV wrote:
My only "balance" or re-design proposition would be to heavily rework Protoss to be way more gateway based and a lot less robo based to rely on AoE. Buff gateway in a way that goes online after the earlier/midgame so other races don't straight up die but this would have to be a huge design-change across full matchups.
I agree with all you wrote. About this - its gettin late hehehe - I just imagined redesigning adept or Archon. So Toss gets a more tanky (but not clunky) gateway unit mid-game.
a) A Twilight upgrade that enables adepts to transform into eee lets call it alfa name "shield maiden" - that adds them HP but makes them incapable of shade (so unit has two functions similar as hellion/hellbat).
b) a new Archont made of two adepts that is thinner, faster and has larger HP to shield ratio, but not necessarily aoe damage.
Thats thrown just as a basis for idea as I am aware balancing this out would be a process. The new form/unit would buff the toss army a little as for HP and perhaps more as a ranged army instead of relying on zealots that are so hard to manage cost-wise vs tanks/mines/hydras/lurkers/kiting bio/whatever
Please correct my dream! ;P
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On February 11 2024 08:50 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 11 2024 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:01 Poopi wrote:
No Zest no hope for protoss, really. I mean herO wasn’t the best toss even before his military departure, he is a scarily good aggressive protoss but you can’t have all of your hopes into a single player
It’s very annoying to cheer for a race and that race has low representation, but unfortunately since there are so few top players left in the game, it’s bound to happen unless you make the race so overpowered that many protoss win I mean let's just look at the field for a moment. We had herO, stats, Showtime, Astrea, Skillous, Firefly, Trigger and Cyan representing Protoss in this tournament. Even with Showtime playing better than he has in a while that is a STEEP drop off in player caliber after herO. Stats if he was in his peak would be another strong player but anyone that's watched him lately can clearly tell he's nowhere near as good as he used to be since coming back from the military. Meanwhile Classic who is as good or better than herO failed to qualify because he got beat in PvP in the qualifiers. Then herO the lone protoss hope of the tournament, throws a series he was ahead in 2-1 because he loses to a proxy Marauder rush and because his hidden gold natural expansion gets scouted. I'm sorry but it's really hard to look at that result and say that balance was the reason he lost. Protoss has a very limited group of high caliber players, and it isn't drawing any new ones in because it isn't designed in such a way where new talent is going to pick it as the "cheesy ladder race" over the other two options if they want to win tournaments. If we want to fix this Protoss representation problem, we can do it in two ways. We can rig the game so that Protoss can win with lower tier players against higher tier ones, either through a very favorable map pool or through balance changes that make Protoss easier to win with with less skill attached (because it would be these same players winning, they wouldn't magically be getting any better just because the game balance shifts in their favor) Or we can adjust Protoss at its core so that it is less gimmicky in a Bo1 and more stable and rewarding of consistent macro play. This would attract more fresh blood to the race that wants to win with skill alone instead of mindgames and build orders. Those are the options. I know which one I'd rather do. Weird how we have to do those justifications and mental gymnastics why Protoss lost every tournament for Protoss but not for the other races Because Protoss's problems are VERY different from the problems Terran and Zerg have. They always have been. But sure let's assume for a moment that balance was the reason Protoss is out of this tournament. I'd like to hear what kind of balance changes need to happen so that Skillous could have beat Dark today. Or I'd like to hear how game balance is the reason why herO lost to Cure today. If we want to complain about the patch and how it needlessly nerfed Protoss, then I'm all for that, but I'd ask you again, even if we rolled back every nerf Protoss received in the last two patch cycles. Would anything have changed in this tournament? Would Stats have advanced out of Group B? Would Showtime knock out Maru or Dark to get out of Group D? Would Skillous have beat Dark? Would herO have held that proxy Marauder rush? When Zerg was OP, we all knew Zerg was OP and we all knew EXACTLY HOW Zerg was OP. We all knew what needed to be done, and how to reign them back in. Weird how we don't see that same discussion about how and where Protoss needs help in these threads now. If it was just a balance problem that a single patch could fix, it's weird how no one can seem to suggest what exactly needs to be done to fix it. Just a lot of woe is Protoss.
It's extremely easy to understand why protoss loses, and a bunch of people have already said it here and elsewhere. Mistakes are way more punishing for protoss than they are for terran or zerg. Do you remember the last time you thought Serral made a big mistake? I think one time he lost to Maxpax by flying his entire corruptor force over Maxpax's army and losing them all, in like 2021 or something. By contrast, do you remember the last time Serral lost a costly unit when he didn't have to lose it? Probably not, but that happens a lot more often. It doesn't even register as a mistake because there's an understanding that as terran or zerg sometimes you'll lose some costly units, it's fine. If you're protoss, those types of interactions are amplified because just one of those mistakes, at a key point in the game, can very easily mean that you lose. And then after you lose, smart people will go "Oh yeah I see that he made this key mistake, clearly he is lacking in skill and his opponent is very deserving" and we end up in this current silly discussion.
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On February 11 2024 09:29 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 08:50 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 11 2024 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:01 Poopi wrote:
No Zest no hope for protoss, really. I mean herO wasn’t the best toss even before his military departure, he is a scarily good aggressive protoss but you can’t have all of your hopes into a single player
It’s very annoying to cheer for a race and that race has low representation, but unfortunately since there are so few top players left in the game, it’s bound to happen unless you make the race so overpowered that many protoss win I mean let's just look at the field for a moment. We had herO, stats, Showtime, Astrea, Skillous, Firefly, Trigger and Cyan representing Protoss in this tournament. Even with Showtime playing better than he has in a while that is a STEEP drop off in player caliber after herO. Stats if he was in his peak would be another strong player but anyone that's watched him lately can clearly tell he's nowhere near as good as he used to be since coming back from the military. Meanwhile Classic who is as good or better than herO failed to qualify because he got beat in PvP in the qualifiers. Then herO the lone protoss hope of the tournament, throws a series he was ahead in 2-1 because he loses to a proxy Marauder rush and because his hidden gold natural expansion gets scouted. I'm sorry but it's really hard to look at that result and say that balance was the reason he lost. Protoss has a very limited group of high caliber players, and it isn't drawing any new ones in because it isn't designed in such a way where new talent is going to pick it as the "cheesy ladder race" over the other two options if they want to win tournaments. If we want to fix this Protoss representation problem, we can do it in two ways. We can rig the game so that Protoss can win with lower tier players against higher tier ones, either through a very favorable map pool or through balance changes that make Protoss easier to win with with less skill attached (because it would be these same players winning, they wouldn't magically be getting any better just because the game balance shifts in their favor) Or we can adjust Protoss at its core so that it is less gimmicky in a Bo1 and more stable and rewarding of consistent macro play. This would attract more fresh blood to the race that wants to win with skill alone instead of mindgames and build orders. Those are the options. I know which one I'd rather do. Weird how we have to do those justifications and mental gymnastics why Protoss lost every tournament for Protoss but not for the other races Because Protoss's problems are VERY different from the problems Terran and Zerg have. They always have been. But sure let's assume for a moment that balance was the reason Protoss is out of this tournament. I'd like to hear what kind of balance changes need to happen so that Skillous could have beat Dark today. Or I'd like to hear how game balance is the reason why herO lost to Cure today. If we want to complain about the patch and how it needlessly nerfed Protoss, then I'm all for that, but I'd ask you again, even if we rolled back every nerf Protoss received in the last two patch cycles. Would anything have changed in this tournament? Would Stats have advanced out of Group B? Would Showtime knock out Maru or Dark to get out of Group D? Would Skillous have beat Dark? Would herO have held that proxy Marauder rush? When Zerg was OP, we all knew Zerg was OP and we all knew EXACTLY HOW Zerg was OP. We all knew what needed to be done, and how to reign them back in. Weird how we don't see that same discussion about how and where Protoss needs help in these threads now. If it was just a balance problem that a single patch could fix, it's weird how no one can seem to suggest what exactly needs to be done to fix it. Just a lot of woe is Protoss. It's extremely easy to understand why protoss loses, and a bunch of people have already said it here and elsewhere. Mistakes are way more punishing for protoss than they are for terran or zerg. Do you remember the last time you thought Serral made a big mistake? I think one time he lost to Maxpax by flying his entire corruptor force over Maxpax's army and losing them all, in like 2021 or something. By contrast, do you remember the last time Serral lost a costly unit when he didn't have to lose it? Probably not, but that happens a lot more often. It doesn't even register as a mistake because there's an understanding that as terran or zerg sometimes you'll lose some costly units, it's fine. If you're protoss, those types of interactions are amplified because just one of those mistakes, at a key point in the game, can very easily mean that you lose. And then after you lose, smart people will go "Oh yeah I see that he made this key mistake, clearly he is lacking in skill and his opponent is very deserving" and we end up in this current silly discussion.
Ok, but see now you're agreeing with me that Protoss problems arent in how they are balanced, Protoss problems are in how they are DESIGNED.
What you are describing is CORE unit interactions in the Protoss army.
I agree with everything you said, I do think Protoss is overly punished for losing its valuable units, but I think that has to do with how Protoss is fundamentally designed and I've made long winded posts about how it all goes back to Warp Gate.
The point, is that if this is how you feel about Protoss and the problems it is having, a simple patch fix isn't going to fix the race. The race needs CORE reworks to how it fundamentally operates.
I've been saying that shit for 11 years.
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On February 11 2024 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 09:29 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2024 08:50 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 11 2024 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:01 Poopi wrote:
No Zest no hope for protoss, really. I mean herO wasn’t the best toss even before his military departure, he is a scarily good aggressive protoss but you can’t have all of your hopes into a single player
It’s very annoying to cheer for a race and that race has low representation, but unfortunately since there are so few top players left in the game, it’s bound to happen unless you make the race so overpowered that many protoss win I mean let's just look at the field for a moment. We had herO, stats, Showtime, Astrea, Skillous, Firefly, Trigger and Cyan representing Protoss in this tournament. Even with Showtime playing better than he has in a while that is a STEEP drop off in player caliber after herO. Stats if he was in his peak would be another strong player but anyone that's watched him lately can clearly tell he's nowhere near as good as he used to be since coming back from the military. Meanwhile Classic who is as good or better than herO failed to qualify because he got beat in PvP in the qualifiers. Then herO the lone protoss hope of the tournament, throws a series he was ahead in 2-1 because he loses to a proxy Marauder rush and because his hidden gold natural expansion gets scouted. I'm sorry but it's really hard to look at that result and say that balance was the reason he lost. Protoss has a very limited group of high caliber players, and it isn't drawing any new ones in because it isn't designed in such a way where new talent is going to pick it as the "cheesy ladder race" over the other two options if they want to win tournaments. If we want to fix this Protoss representation problem, we can do it in two ways. We can rig the game so that Protoss can win with lower tier players against higher tier ones, either through a very favorable map pool or through balance changes that make Protoss easier to win with with less skill attached (because it would be these same players winning, they wouldn't magically be getting any better just because the game balance shifts in their favor) Or we can adjust Protoss at its core so that it is less gimmicky in a Bo1 and more stable and rewarding of consistent macro play. This would attract more fresh blood to the race that wants to win with skill alone instead of mindgames and build orders. Those are the options. I know which one I'd rather do. Weird how we have to do those justifications and mental gymnastics why Protoss lost every tournament for Protoss but not for the other races Because Protoss's problems are VERY different from the problems Terran and Zerg have. They always have been. But sure let's assume for a moment that balance was the reason Protoss is out of this tournament. I'd like to hear what kind of balance changes need to happen so that Skillous could have beat Dark today. Or I'd like to hear how game balance is the reason why herO lost to Cure today. If we want to complain about the patch and how it needlessly nerfed Protoss, then I'm all for that, but I'd ask you again, even if we rolled back every nerf Protoss received in the last two patch cycles. Would anything have changed in this tournament? Would Stats have advanced out of Group B? Would Showtime knock out Maru or Dark to get out of Group D? Would Skillous have beat Dark? Would herO have held that proxy Marauder rush? When Zerg was OP, we all knew Zerg was OP and we all knew EXACTLY HOW Zerg was OP. We all knew what needed to be done, and how to reign them back in. Weird how we don't see that same discussion about how and where Protoss needs help in these threads now. If it was just a balance problem that a single patch could fix, it's weird how no one can seem to suggest what exactly needs to be done to fix it. Just a lot of woe is Protoss. It's extremely easy to understand why protoss loses, and a bunch of people have already said it here and elsewhere. Mistakes are way more punishing for protoss than they are for terran or zerg. Do you remember the last time you thought Serral made a big mistake? I think one time he lost to Maxpax by flying his entire corruptor force over Maxpax's army and losing them all, in like 2021 or something. By contrast, do you remember the last time Serral lost a costly unit when he didn't have to lose it? Probably not, but that happens a lot more often. It doesn't even register as a mistake because there's an understanding that as terran or zerg sometimes you'll lose some costly units, it's fine. If you're protoss, those types of interactions are amplified because just one of those mistakes, at a key point in the game, can very easily mean that you lose. And then after you lose, smart people will go "Oh yeah I see that he made this key mistake, clearly he is lacking in skill and his opponent is very deserving" and we end up in this current silly discussion. Ok, but see now you're agreeing with me that Protoss problems arent in how they are balanced, Protoss problems are in how they are DESIGNED. What you are describing is CORE unit interactions in the Protoss army. I agree with everything you said, I do think Protoss is overly punished for losing its valuable units, but I think that has to do with how Protoss is fundamentally designed and I've made long winded posts about how it all goes back to Warp Gate. The point, is that if this is how you feel about Protoss and the problems it is having, a simple patch fix isn't going to fix the race. The race needs CORE reworks to how it fundamentally operates. I've been saying that shit for 11 years.
We could very easily fix that with balance, as we know because in other periods of the game, such as Heart of the Swarm, it was also true that you could lose games as protoss because you lost a key unit and protoss was still overpowered.
But I agree there are design problems with the game, I just think it's terran causing them, and it's extremely obvious that nobody will ever touch the marine so I don't see point on focusing on that. Tbh what I'm doing here is also pointless, I'm mostly just wasting time waiting for Stormgate.
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On February 11 2024 09:41 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 09:29 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2024 08:50 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 11 2024 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:01 Poopi wrote:
No Zest no hope for protoss, really. I mean herO wasn’t the best toss even before his military departure, he is a scarily good aggressive protoss but you can’t have all of your hopes into a single player
It’s very annoying to cheer for a race and that race has low representation, but unfortunately since there are so few top players left in the game, it’s bound to happen unless you make the race so overpowered that many protoss win I mean let's just look at the field for a moment. We had herO, stats, Showtime, Astrea, Skillous, Firefly, Trigger and Cyan representing Protoss in this tournament. Even with Showtime playing better than he has in a while that is a STEEP drop off in player caliber after herO. Stats if he was in his peak would be another strong player but anyone that's watched him lately can clearly tell he's nowhere near as good as he used to be since coming back from the military. Meanwhile Classic who is as good or better than herO failed to qualify because he got beat in PvP in the qualifiers. Then herO the lone protoss hope of the tournament, throws a series he was ahead in 2-1 because he loses to a proxy Marauder rush and because his hidden gold natural expansion gets scouted. I'm sorry but it's really hard to look at that result and say that balance was the reason he lost. Protoss has a very limited group of high caliber players, and it isn't drawing any new ones in because it isn't designed in such a way where new talent is going to pick it as the "cheesy ladder race" over the other two options if they want to win tournaments. If we want to fix this Protoss representation problem, we can do it in two ways. We can rig the game so that Protoss can win with lower tier players against higher tier ones, either through a very favorable map pool or through balance changes that make Protoss easier to win with with less skill attached (because it would be these same players winning, they wouldn't magically be getting any better just because the game balance shifts in their favor) Or we can adjust Protoss at its core so that it is less gimmicky in a Bo1 and more stable and rewarding of consistent macro play. This would attract more fresh blood to the race that wants to win with skill alone instead of mindgames and build orders. Those are the options. I know which one I'd rather do. Weird how we have to do those justifications and mental gymnastics why Protoss lost every tournament for Protoss but not for the other races Because Protoss's problems are VERY different from the problems Terran and Zerg have. They always have been. But sure let's assume for a moment that balance was the reason Protoss is out of this tournament. I'd like to hear what kind of balance changes need to happen so that Skillous could have beat Dark today. Or I'd like to hear how game balance is the reason why herO lost to Cure today. If we want to complain about the patch and how it needlessly nerfed Protoss, then I'm all for that, but I'd ask you again, even if we rolled back every nerf Protoss received in the last two patch cycles. Would anything have changed in this tournament? Would Stats have advanced out of Group B? Would Showtime knock out Maru or Dark to get out of Group D? Would Skillous have beat Dark? Would herO have held that proxy Marauder rush? When Zerg was OP, we all knew Zerg was OP and we all knew EXACTLY HOW Zerg was OP. We all knew what needed to be done, and how to reign them back in. Weird how we don't see that same discussion about how and where Protoss needs help in these threads now. If it was just a balance problem that a single patch could fix, it's weird how no one can seem to suggest what exactly needs to be done to fix it. Just a lot of woe is Protoss. It's extremely easy to understand why protoss loses, and a bunch of people have already said it here and elsewhere. Mistakes are way more punishing for protoss than they are for terran or zerg. Do you remember the last time you thought Serral made a big mistake? I think one time he lost to Maxpax by flying his entire corruptor force over Maxpax's army and losing them all, in like 2021 or something. By contrast, do you remember the last time Serral lost a costly unit when he didn't have to lose it? Probably not, but that happens a lot more often. It doesn't even register as a mistake because there's an understanding that as terran or zerg sometimes you'll lose some costly units, it's fine. If you're protoss, those types of interactions are amplified because just one of those mistakes, at a key point in the game, can very easily mean that you lose. And then after you lose, smart people will go "Oh yeah I see that he made this key mistake, clearly he is lacking in skill and his opponent is very deserving" and we end up in this current silly discussion. Ok, but see now you're agreeing with me that Protoss problems arent in how they are balanced, Protoss problems are in how they are DESIGNED. What you are describing is CORE unit interactions in the Protoss army. I agree with everything you said, I do think Protoss is overly punished for losing its valuable units, but I think that has to do with how Protoss is fundamentally designed and I've made long winded posts about how it all goes back to Warp Gate. The point, is that if this is how you feel about Protoss and the problems it is having, a simple patch fix isn't going to fix the race. The race needs CORE reworks to how it fundamentally operates. I've been saying that shit for 11 years. We could very easily fix that with balance, as we know because in other periods of the game, such as Heart of the Swarm, it was also true that you could lose games as protoss because you lost a key unit and protoss was still overpowered. But I agree there are design problems with the game, I just think it's terran causing them, and it's extremely obvious that nobody will ever touch the marine so I don't see point on focusing on that. Tbh what I'm doing here is also pointless, I'm mostly just wasting time waiting for Stormgate.
The game has changed a lot since Heart of the Swarm. The economy changes have radically changed how macro games are played.
The problems in Protoss design have always been there, but it wasn't until LotV that they have become THIS much of a problem.
Even back in the day, to patch over the problems that Protoss had in their design Blizzard gave them a bullshit bandaid in the Mothership Core to help hide their problems and prop up their winrate. Is that the solution we want to do again to bring Protoss winrates back up? Would that make people happy? I'm willing to bet it won't.
So like I said. Our options are rigging the game or fixing Protoss. We tried option 1 back in HotS with the Mothership Core. We could bring that back again, if that's the route we want to go. Or we can actually fix the problems that Blizzard was too chicken shit to fix back in WoL when we first talked about them.
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Protoss is not tournament viable. The statistics prove it. But I have an idea on how to fix this.
The main problem with Protoss is the PvT matchup. The reason why is simple. If Protoss stays home, the Terran just outpaces them, which means Protoss needs to go across the map with something to slow Terran down. The problem is that Protoss can't do that, because:
(1) Protoss isn't designed to kill SCVs:
- Adepts need 3 shots
- Oracles need 3 shots
- Stalkers die too fast and are way too expensive
- Zealots do nothing because of surface area control and SCV hold position target priority
- (The only unit that can kill SCVs is Phoenixes, but then Terran makes mass bio and hits a timing before colossus)
(2) Terran is designed to kill probes:
- No matter how many shield batteries Protoss has, those batteries don't deal any damage. Reaper/Hellion out-damages the healing, and widow mines, liberators, and 2x banshees one-shot probes. And now there's cyclones that kill all the army and all the probes at the same time.
To fix this problem, one must address those two points. And the fix is quite simple as well:
(1) Make SCV-s two-shottable by adepts and oracles:
- At the start of LotV, nobody knew how to survive mass adepts. Nowadays, they know, and nobody makes mass adepts anymore, because it's a terrible build.
- Drones and probes can be two-shot by adepts and oracles. The same should apply for SCVs. It would make adepts and oracles a lot more viable to control and slow down the Terran and even pester them later on. It's a scary change, but with the existence of the current cyclones, I think it should be fine.
(2) Return the Mothership Core:
- Due to how Protoss works, they have a very limited amount of units, especially early on. Protoss is often spread too thin to defend every angle of attack. Thus, the ability to spend energy to create a damage source early on is vital to keep your base protected.
- With the "Nexus Cannon" ability, you can now have some of your other units (e.g. 2 oracles / 2 adepts) across the map to keep the Terran honest/busy, while also being able to successfully defend against any harassment back at base.
Additionally...
- The reason why Terran wins so many battles so easily in TvP is because of their speed and damage. You rush in fast, do damage fast, and then retreat fast before Protoss can even punish anything.
- Well, it just so happens that a Mothership Core also has the "Time Warp" ability that helps against all 3 of those! Terran can't rush in as fast, can't lawnmower everything down as fast, and can't retreat as fast, so you can punish over-extensions more reasonably.
- Also, in case Protoss wants to be aggressive, you can control the battlefield a bit better (especially vs flanks), and even cover your own retreat path if your battle goes wrong, allowing you to save many crucial units instead of losing everything because stimmed bio catches up to punish too fast.
Additionally, while this problem doesn't prevail as hard in PvZ, I do think Zerg is also a bit stronger than Protoss, and I think the mothership core would also help here in many different ways:
- Ling/bane fast and annoying? Time warp to slow them down!
- Mass speed roach lawnmowers you 180 supply vs 116? Time warp to slow them down! And also nexus cannon to add some additional damage.
- Mutalisks kill 30 probes 8 minutes into the game? Apply nexus cannon to alleviate the probe losses!
- Zerg attacks from 3 different paths during your attack? Apply time warps to reposition your army in time!
Lastly, it would also make PvP much more fun. Suddenly, going Gateway Nexus for a macro opening is much more viable, and less games would end within the first 6 minutes in a fierce clown fiesta.
It's almost like the Mothership Core was designed to be a vital key component to a Protoss's success. I wonder why it was removed in the first place...
But hey, don't take my word for it, I'm just a spectator. However, I think my points stand to reason. The one way to find out if I'm correct is to try it out in practice. I honestly think these two changes might be enough to bring Protoss to competition level again. And if the MCore proves to be too strong, then remove shield battery overcharge - it's overrated anyway.
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On February 11 2024 09:41 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 09:29 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2024 08:50 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 11 2024 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:01 Poopi wrote:
No Zest no hope for protoss, really. I mean herO wasn’t the best toss even before his military departure, he is a scarily good aggressive protoss but you can’t have all of your hopes into a single player
It’s very annoying to cheer for a race and that race has low representation, but unfortunately since there are so few top players left in the game, it’s bound to happen unless you make the race so overpowered that many protoss win I mean let's just look at the field for a moment. We had herO, stats, Showtime, Astrea, Skillous, Firefly, Trigger and Cyan representing Protoss in this tournament. Even with Showtime playing better than he has in a while that is a STEEP drop off in player caliber after herO. Stats if he was in his peak would be another strong player but anyone that's watched him lately can clearly tell he's nowhere near as good as he used to be since coming back from the military. Meanwhile Classic who is as good or better than herO failed to qualify because he got beat in PvP in the qualifiers. Then herO the lone protoss hope of the tournament, throws a series he was ahead in 2-1 because he loses to a proxy Marauder rush and because his hidden gold natural expansion gets scouted. I'm sorry but it's really hard to look at that result and say that balance was the reason he lost. Protoss has a very limited group of high caliber players, and it isn't drawing any new ones in because it isn't designed in such a way where new talent is going to pick it as the "cheesy ladder race" over the other two options if they want to win tournaments. If we want to fix this Protoss representation problem, we can do it in two ways. We can rig the game so that Protoss can win with lower tier players against higher tier ones, either through a very favorable map pool or through balance changes that make Protoss easier to win with with less skill attached (because it would be these same players winning, they wouldn't magically be getting any better just because the game balance shifts in their favor) Or we can adjust Protoss at its core so that it is less gimmicky in a Bo1 and more stable and rewarding of consistent macro play. This would attract more fresh blood to the race that wants to win with skill alone instead of mindgames and build orders. Those are the options. I know which one I'd rather do. Weird how we have to do those justifications and mental gymnastics why Protoss lost every tournament for Protoss but not for the other races Because Protoss's problems are VERY different from the problems Terran and Zerg have. They always have been. But sure let's assume for a moment that balance was the reason Protoss is out of this tournament. I'd like to hear what kind of balance changes need to happen so that Skillous could have beat Dark today. Or I'd like to hear how game balance is the reason why herO lost to Cure today. If we want to complain about the patch and how it needlessly nerfed Protoss, then I'm all for that, but I'd ask you again, even if we rolled back every nerf Protoss received in the last two patch cycles. Would anything have changed in this tournament? Would Stats have advanced out of Group B? Would Showtime knock out Maru or Dark to get out of Group D? Would Skillous have beat Dark? Would herO have held that proxy Marauder rush? When Zerg was OP, we all knew Zerg was OP and we all knew EXACTLY HOW Zerg was OP. We all knew what needed to be done, and how to reign them back in. Weird how we don't see that same discussion about how and where Protoss needs help in these threads now. If it was just a balance problem that a single patch could fix, it's weird how no one can seem to suggest what exactly needs to be done to fix it. Just a lot of woe is Protoss. It's extremely easy to understand why protoss loses, and a bunch of people have already said it here and elsewhere. Mistakes are way more punishing for protoss than they are for terran or zerg. Do you remember the last time you thought Serral made a big mistake? I think one time he lost to Maxpax by flying his entire corruptor force over Maxpax's army and losing them all, in like 2021 or something. By contrast, do you remember the last time Serral lost a costly unit when he didn't have to lose it? Probably not, but that happens a lot more often. It doesn't even register as a mistake because there's an understanding that as terran or zerg sometimes you'll lose some costly units, it's fine. If you're protoss, those types of interactions are amplified because just one of those mistakes, at a key point in the game, can very easily mean that you lose. And then after you lose, smart people will go "Oh yeah I see that he made this key mistake, clearly he is lacking in skill and his opponent is very deserving" and we end up in this current silly discussion. Ok, but see now you're agreeing with me that Protoss problems arent in how they are balanced, Protoss problems are in how they are DESIGNED. What you are describing is CORE unit interactions in the Protoss army. I agree with everything you said, I do think Protoss is overly punished for losing its valuable units, but I think that has to do with how Protoss is fundamentally designed and I've made long winded posts about how it all goes back to Warp Gate. The point, is that if this is how you feel about Protoss and the problems it is having, a simple patch fix isn't going to fix the race. The race needs CORE reworks to how it fundamentally operates. I've been saying that shit for 11 years. We could very easily fix that with balance, as we know because in other periods of the game, such as Heart of the Swarm, it was also true that you could lose games as protoss because you lost a key unit and protoss was still overpowered. But I agree there are design problems with the game, I just think it's terran causing them, and it's extremely obvious that nobody will ever touch the marine so I don't see point on focusing on that. Tbh what I'm doing here is also pointless, I'm mostly just wasting time waiting for Stormgate.
I just really wish they fix the Stormgate design art - its so hard to watch and I don't think I could ever get into it. Its kind of crazy that SC2 is 14 years older than it and looks much fresher/modern
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On February 11 2024 09:59 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 09:41 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2024 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 09:29 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2024 08:50 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 11 2024 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:01 Poopi wrote:
No Zest no hope for protoss, really. I mean herO wasn’t the best toss even before his military departure, he is a scarily good aggressive protoss but you can’t have all of your hopes into a single player
It’s very annoying to cheer for a race and that race has low representation, but unfortunately since there are so few top players left in the game, it’s bound to happen unless you make the race so overpowered that many protoss win I mean let's just look at the field for a moment. We had herO, stats, Showtime, Astrea, Skillous, Firefly, Trigger and Cyan representing Protoss in this tournament. Even with Showtime playing better than he has in a while that is a STEEP drop off in player caliber after herO. Stats if he was in his peak would be another strong player but anyone that's watched him lately can clearly tell he's nowhere near as good as he used to be since coming back from the military. Meanwhile Classic who is as good or better than herO failed to qualify because he got beat in PvP in the qualifiers. Then herO the lone protoss hope of the tournament, throws a series he was ahead in 2-1 because he loses to a proxy Marauder rush and because his hidden gold natural expansion gets scouted. I'm sorry but it's really hard to look at that result and say that balance was the reason he lost. Protoss has a very limited group of high caliber players, and it isn't drawing any new ones in because it isn't designed in such a way where new talent is going to pick it as the "cheesy ladder race" over the other two options if they want to win tournaments. If we want to fix this Protoss representation problem, we can do it in two ways. We can rig the game so that Protoss can win with lower tier players against higher tier ones, either through a very favorable map pool or through balance changes that make Protoss easier to win with with less skill attached (because it would be these same players winning, they wouldn't magically be getting any better just because the game balance shifts in their favor) Or we can adjust Protoss at its core so that it is less gimmicky in a Bo1 and more stable and rewarding of consistent macro play. This would attract more fresh blood to the race that wants to win with skill alone instead of mindgames and build orders. Those are the options. I know which one I'd rather do. Weird how we have to do those justifications and mental gymnastics why Protoss lost every tournament for Protoss but not for the other races Because Protoss's problems are VERY different from the problems Terran and Zerg have. They always have been. But sure let's assume for a moment that balance was the reason Protoss is out of this tournament. I'd like to hear what kind of balance changes need to happen so that Skillous could have beat Dark today. Or I'd like to hear how game balance is the reason why herO lost to Cure today. If we want to complain about the patch and how it needlessly nerfed Protoss, then I'm all for that, but I'd ask you again, even if we rolled back every nerf Protoss received in the last two patch cycles. Would anything have changed in this tournament? Would Stats have advanced out of Group B? Would Showtime knock out Maru or Dark to get out of Group D? Would Skillous have beat Dark? Would herO have held that proxy Marauder rush? When Zerg was OP, we all knew Zerg was OP and we all knew EXACTLY HOW Zerg was OP. We all knew what needed to be done, and how to reign them back in. Weird how we don't see that same discussion about how and where Protoss needs help in these threads now. If it was just a balance problem that a single patch could fix, it's weird how no one can seem to suggest what exactly needs to be done to fix it. Just a lot of woe is Protoss. It's extremely easy to understand why protoss loses, and a bunch of people have already said it here and elsewhere. Mistakes are way more punishing for protoss than they are for terran or zerg. Do you remember the last time you thought Serral made a big mistake? I think one time he lost to Maxpax by flying his entire corruptor force over Maxpax's army and losing them all, in like 2021 or something. By contrast, do you remember the last time Serral lost a costly unit when he didn't have to lose it? Probably not, but that happens a lot more often. It doesn't even register as a mistake because there's an understanding that as terran or zerg sometimes you'll lose some costly units, it's fine. If you're protoss, those types of interactions are amplified because just one of those mistakes, at a key point in the game, can very easily mean that you lose. And then after you lose, smart people will go "Oh yeah I see that he made this key mistake, clearly he is lacking in skill and his opponent is very deserving" and we end up in this current silly discussion. Ok, but see now you're agreeing with me that Protoss problems arent in how they are balanced, Protoss problems are in how they are DESIGNED. What you are describing is CORE unit interactions in the Protoss army. I agree with everything you said, I do think Protoss is overly punished for losing its valuable units, but I think that has to do with how Protoss is fundamentally designed and I've made long winded posts about how it all goes back to Warp Gate. The point, is that if this is how you feel about Protoss and the problems it is having, a simple patch fix isn't going to fix the race. The race needs CORE reworks to how it fundamentally operates. I've been saying that shit for 11 years. We could very easily fix that with balance, as we know because in other periods of the game, such as Heart of the Swarm, it was also true that you could lose games as protoss because you lost a key unit and protoss was still overpowered. But I agree there are design problems with the game, I just think it's terran causing them, and it's extremely obvious that nobody will ever touch the marine so I don't see point on focusing on that. Tbh what I'm doing here is also pointless, I'm mostly just wasting time waiting for Stormgate. I just really wish they fix the Stormgate design art - its so hard to watch and I don't think I could ever get into it. Its kind of crazy that SC2 is 14 years older than it and looks much fresher/modern
It also runs a lot better. The lag I was getting in the Stormgate beta was simply awful especially for how bad the game looked while I was playing it.
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I’m a massive herO fan, have been for years. And I admit that he did not play well in that series. But I think the reason people are upset is because its more of a “last straw that broke the camel’s back” type situation.
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On February 11 2024 09:47 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 09:41 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2024 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 09:29 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2024 08:50 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 11 2024 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:01 Poopi wrote:
No Zest no hope for protoss, really. I mean herO wasn’t the best toss even before his military departure, he is a scarily good aggressive protoss but you can’t have all of your hopes into a single player
It’s very annoying to cheer for a race and that race has low representation, but unfortunately since there are so few top players left in the game, it’s bound to happen unless you make the race so overpowered that many protoss win I mean let's just look at the field for a moment. We had herO, stats, Showtime, Astrea, Skillous, Firefly, Trigger and Cyan representing Protoss in this tournament. Even with Showtime playing better than he has in a while that is a STEEP drop off in player caliber after herO. Stats if he was in his peak would be another strong player but anyone that's watched him lately can clearly tell he's nowhere near as good as he used to be since coming back from the military. Meanwhile Classic who is as good or better than herO failed to qualify because he got beat in PvP in the qualifiers. Then herO the lone protoss hope of the tournament, throws a series he was ahead in 2-1 because he loses to a proxy Marauder rush and because his hidden gold natural expansion gets scouted. I'm sorry but it's really hard to look at that result and say that balance was the reason he lost. Protoss has a very limited group of high caliber players, and it isn't drawing any new ones in because it isn't designed in such a way where new talent is going to pick it as the "cheesy ladder race" over the other two options if they want to win tournaments. If we want to fix this Protoss representation problem, we can do it in two ways. We can rig the game so that Protoss can win with lower tier players against higher tier ones, either through a very favorable map pool or through balance changes that make Protoss easier to win with with less skill attached (because it would be these same players winning, they wouldn't magically be getting any better just because the game balance shifts in their favor) Or we can adjust Protoss at its core so that it is less gimmicky in a Bo1 and more stable and rewarding of consistent macro play. This would attract more fresh blood to the race that wants to win with skill alone instead of mindgames and build orders. Those are the options. I know which one I'd rather do. Weird how we have to do those justifications and mental gymnastics why Protoss lost every tournament for Protoss but not for the other races Because Protoss's problems are VERY different from the problems Terran and Zerg have. They always have been. But sure let's assume for a moment that balance was the reason Protoss is out of this tournament. I'd like to hear what kind of balance changes need to happen so that Skillous could have beat Dark today. Or I'd like to hear how game balance is the reason why herO lost to Cure today. If we want to complain about the patch and how it needlessly nerfed Protoss, then I'm all for that, but I'd ask you again, even if we rolled back every nerf Protoss received in the last two patch cycles. Would anything have changed in this tournament? Would Stats have advanced out of Group B? Would Showtime knock out Maru or Dark to get out of Group D? Would Skillous have beat Dark? Would herO have held that proxy Marauder rush? When Zerg was OP, we all knew Zerg was OP and we all knew EXACTLY HOW Zerg was OP. We all knew what needed to be done, and how to reign them back in. Weird how we don't see that same discussion about how and where Protoss needs help in these threads now. If it was just a balance problem that a single patch could fix, it's weird how no one can seem to suggest what exactly needs to be done to fix it. Just a lot of woe is Protoss. It's extremely easy to understand why protoss loses, and a bunch of people have already said it here and elsewhere. Mistakes are way more punishing for protoss than they are for terran or zerg. Do you remember the last time you thought Serral made a big mistake? I think one time he lost to Maxpax by flying his entire corruptor force over Maxpax's army and losing them all, in like 2021 or something. By contrast, do you remember the last time Serral lost a costly unit when he didn't have to lose it? Probably not, but that happens a lot more often. It doesn't even register as a mistake because there's an understanding that as terran or zerg sometimes you'll lose some costly units, it's fine. If you're protoss, those types of interactions are amplified because just one of those mistakes, at a key point in the game, can very easily mean that you lose. And then after you lose, smart people will go "Oh yeah I see that he made this key mistake, clearly he is lacking in skill and his opponent is very deserving" and we end up in this current silly discussion. Ok, but see now you're agreeing with me that Protoss problems arent in how they are balanced, Protoss problems are in how they are DESIGNED. What you are describing is CORE unit interactions in the Protoss army. I agree with everything you said, I do think Protoss is overly punished for losing its valuable units, but I think that has to do with how Protoss is fundamentally designed and I've made long winded posts about how it all goes back to Warp Gate. The point, is that if this is how you feel about Protoss and the problems it is having, a simple patch fix isn't going to fix the race. The race needs CORE reworks to how it fundamentally operates. I've been saying that shit for 11 years. We could very easily fix that with balance, as we know because in other periods of the game, such as Heart of the Swarm, it was also true that you could lose games as protoss because you lost a key unit and protoss was still overpowered. But I agree there are design problems with the game, I just think it's terran causing them, and it's extremely obvious that nobody will ever touch the marine so I don't see point on focusing on that. Tbh what I'm doing here is also pointless, I'm mostly just wasting time waiting for Stormgate. The game has changed a lot since Heart of the Swarm. The economy changes have radically changed how macro games are played. The problems in Protoss design have always been there, but it wasn't until LotV that they have become THIS much of a problem. Even back in the day, to patch over the problems that Protoss had in their design Blizzard gave them a bullshit bandaid in the Mothership Core to help hide their problems and prop up their winrate. Is that the solution we want to do again to bring Protoss winrates back up? Would that make people happy? I'm willing to bet it won't. So like I said. Our options are rigging the game or fixing Protoss. We tried option 1 back in HotS with the Mothership Core. We could bring that back again, if that's the route we want to go. Or we can actually fix the problems that Blizzard was too chicken shit to fix back in WoL when we first talked about them.
Yea because lotv is the Antithesis to protoss, fast expanding more Focus on Mobility, weaken deathballs etc.
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On February 11 2024 10:15 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 09:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 09:41 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2024 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 09:29 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2024 08:50 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 11 2024 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:01 Poopi wrote:
No Zest no hope for protoss, really. I mean herO wasn’t the best toss even before his military departure, he is a scarily good aggressive protoss but you can’t have all of your hopes into a single player
It’s very annoying to cheer for a race and that race has low representation, but unfortunately since there are so few top players left in the game, it’s bound to happen unless you make the race so overpowered that many protoss win I mean let's just look at the field for a moment. We had herO, stats, Showtime, Astrea, Skillous, Firefly, Trigger and Cyan representing Protoss in this tournament. Even with Showtime playing better than he has in a while that is a STEEP drop off in player caliber after herO. Stats if he was in his peak would be another strong player but anyone that's watched him lately can clearly tell he's nowhere near as good as he used to be since coming back from the military. Meanwhile Classic who is as good or better than herO failed to qualify because he got beat in PvP in the qualifiers. Then herO the lone protoss hope of the tournament, throws a series he was ahead in 2-1 because he loses to a proxy Marauder rush and because his hidden gold natural expansion gets scouted. I'm sorry but it's really hard to look at that result and say that balance was the reason he lost. Protoss has a very limited group of high caliber players, and it isn't drawing any new ones in because it isn't designed in such a way where new talent is going to pick it as the "cheesy ladder race" over the other two options if they want to win tournaments. If we want to fix this Protoss representation problem, we can do it in two ways. We can rig the game so that Protoss can win with lower tier players against higher tier ones, either through a very favorable map pool or through balance changes that make Protoss easier to win with with less skill attached (because it would be these same players winning, they wouldn't magically be getting any better just because the game balance shifts in their favor) Or we can adjust Protoss at its core so that it is less gimmicky in a Bo1 and more stable and rewarding of consistent macro play. This would attract more fresh blood to the race that wants to win with skill alone instead of mindgames and build orders. Those are the options. I know which one I'd rather do. Weird how we have to do those justifications and mental gymnastics why Protoss lost every tournament for Protoss but not for the other races Because Protoss's problems are VERY different from the problems Terran and Zerg have. They always have been. But sure let's assume for a moment that balance was the reason Protoss is out of this tournament. I'd like to hear what kind of balance changes need to happen so that Skillous could have beat Dark today. Or I'd like to hear how game balance is the reason why herO lost to Cure today. If we want to complain about the patch and how it needlessly nerfed Protoss, then I'm all for that, but I'd ask you again, even if we rolled back every nerf Protoss received in the last two patch cycles. Would anything have changed in this tournament? Would Stats have advanced out of Group B? Would Showtime knock out Maru or Dark to get out of Group D? Would Skillous have beat Dark? Would herO have held that proxy Marauder rush? When Zerg was OP, we all knew Zerg was OP and we all knew EXACTLY HOW Zerg was OP. We all knew what needed to be done, and how to reign them back in. Weird how we don't see that same discussion about how and where Protoss needs help in these threads now. If it was just a balance problem that a single patch could fix, it's weird how no one can seem to suggest what exactly needs to be done to fix it. Just a lot of woe is Protoss. It's extremely easy to understand why protoss loses, and a bunch of people have already said it here and elsewhere. Mistakes are way more punishing for protoss than they are for terran or zerg. Do you remember the last time you thought Serral made a big mistake? I think one time he lost to Maxpax by flying his entire corruptor force over Maxpax's army and losing them all, in like 2021 or something. By contrast, do you remember the last time Serral lost a costly unit when he didn't have to lose it? Probably not, but that happens a lot more often. It doesn't even register as a mistake because there's an understanding that as terran or zerg sometimes you'll lose some costly units, it's fine. If you're protoss, those types of interactions are amplified because just one of those mistakes, at a key point in the game, can very easily mean that you lose. And then after you lose, smart people will go "Oh yeah I see that he made this key mistake, clearly he is lacking in skill and his opponent is very deserving" and we end up in this current silly discussion. Ok, but see now you're agreeing with me that Protoss problems arent in how they are balanced, Protoss problems are in how they are DESIGNED. What you are describing is CORE unit interactions in the Protoss army. I agree with everything you said, I do think Protoss is overly punished for losing its valuable units, but I think that has to do with how Protoss is fundamentally designed and I've made long winded posts about how it all goes back to Warp Gate. The point, is that if this is how you feel about Protoss and the problems it is having, a simple patch fix isn't going to fix the race. The race needs CORE reworks to how it fundamentally operates. I've been saying that shit for 11 years. We could very easily fix that with balance, as we know because in other periods of the game, such as Heart of the Swarm, it was also true that you could lose games as protoss because you lost a key unit and protoss was still overpowered. But I agree there are design problems with the game, I just think it's terran causing them, and it's extremely obvious that nobody will ever touch the marine so I don't see point on focusing on that. Tbh what I'm doing here is also pointless, I'm mostly just wasting time waiting for Stormgate. The game has changed a lot since Heart of the Swarm. The economy changes have radically changed how macro games are played. The problems in Protoss design have always been there, but it wasn't until LotV that they have become THIS much of a problem. Even back in the day, to patch over the problems that Protoss had in their design Blizzard gave them a bullshit bandaid in the Mothership Core to help hide their problems and prop up their winrate. Is that the solution we want to do again to bring Protoss winrates back up? Would that make people happy? I'm willing to bet it won't. So like I said. Our options are rigging the game or fixing Protoss. We tried option 1 back in HotS with the Mothership Core. We could bring that back again, if that's the route we want to go. Or we can actually fix the problems that Blizzard was too chicken shit to fix back in WoL when we first talked about them. Yea because lotv is the Antithesis to protoss, fast expanding more Focus on Mobility, weaken deathballs etc.
Right, which is why all adding the Mothership Core would do is double back down on the problematic design that Protoss has and push it further into this realm of being a cheesy all in race, that doesn't produce consistent champions like it was before.
The Mothership Core promotes deathball style all ins by its very nature of being a hero unit. It cant be everywhere on the map at once.
It would boost Protoss defense and help them survive early game aggression and allow them to be greedy, and then what? When the game spreads out, it offers almost nothing. Oh and if we're talking about units that Protoss can't afford to lose, it goes RIGHT to the top of the list.
It won't fix any of the problems Protoss actually has. It will boost its winrate, but personally I don't care to see its winrate boosted if THAT is how we're going to do it.
Y'all can make up your own minds though.
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On February 11 2024 10:26 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2024 10:15 darklycid wrote:On February 11 2024 09:47 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 09:41 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2024 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 09:29 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2024 08:50 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 11 2024 08:15 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 11 2024 08:01 Poopi wrote:
No Zest no hope for protoss, really. I mean herO wasn’t the best toss even before his military departure, he is a scarily good aggressive protoss but you can’t have all of your hopes into a single player
It’s very annoying to cheer for a race and that race has low representation, but unfortunately since there are so few top players left in the game, it’s bound to happen unless you make the race so overpowered that many protoss win I mean let's just look at the field for a moment. We had herO, stats, Showtime, Astrea, Skillous, Firefly, Trigger and Cyan representing Protoss in this tournament. Even with Showtime playing better than he has in a while that is a STEEP drop off in player caliber after herO. Stats if he was in his peak would be another strong player but anyone that's watched him lately can clearly tell he's nowhere near as good as he used to be since coming back from the military. Meanwhile Classic who is as good or better than herO failed to qualify because he got beat in PvP in the qualifiers. Then herO the lone protoss hope of the tournament, throws a series he was ahead in 2-1 because he loses to a proxy Marauder rush and because his hidden gold natural expansion gets scouted. I'm sorry but it's really hard to look at that result and say that balance was the reason he lost. Protoss has a very limited group of high caliber players, and it isn't drawing any new ones in because it isn't designed in such a way where new talent is going to pick it as the "cheesy ladder race" over the other two options if they want to win tournaments. If we want to fix this Protoss representation problem, we can do it in two ways. We can rig the game so that Protoss can win with lower tier players against higher tier ones, either through a very favorable map pool or through balance changes that make Protoss easier to win with with less skill attached (because it would be these same players winning, they wouldn't magically be getting any better just because the game balance shifts in their favor) Or we can adjust Protoss at its core so that it is less gimmicky in a Bo1 and more stable and rewarding of consistent macro play. This would attract more fresh blood to the race that wants to win with skill alone instead of mindgames and build orders. Those are the options. I know which one I'd rather do. Weird how we have to do those justifications and mental gymnastics why Protoss lost every tournament for Protoss but not for the other races Because Protoss's problems are VERY different from the problems Terran and Zerg have. They always have been. But sure let's assume for a moment that balance was the reason Protoss is out of this tournament. I'd like to hear what kind of balance changes need to happen so that Skillous could have beat Dark today. Or I'd like to hear how game balance is the reason why herO lost to Cure today. If we want to complain about the patch and how it needlessly nerfed Protoss, then I'm all for that, but I'd ask you again, even if we rolled back every nerf Protoss received in the last two patch cycles. Would anything have changed in this tournament? Would Stats have advanced out of Group B? Would Showtime knock out Maru or Dark to get out of Group D? Would Skillous have beat Dark? Would herO have held that proxy Marauder rush? When Zerg was OP, we all knew Zerg was OP and we all knew EXACTLY HOW Zerg was OP. We all knew what needed to be done, and how to reign them back in. Weird how we don't see that same discussion about how and where Protoss needs help in these threads now. If it was just a balance problem that a single patch could fix, it's weird how no one can seem to suggest what exactly needs to be done to fix it. Just a lot of woe is Protoss. It's extremely easy to understand why protoss loses, and a bunch of people have already said it here and elsewhere. Mistakes are way more punishing for protoss than they are for terran or zerg. Do you remember the last time you thought Serral made a big mistake? I think one time he lost to Maxpax by flying his entire corruptor force over Maxpax's army and losing them all, in like 2021 or something. By contrast, do you remember the last time Serral lost a costly unit when he didn't have to lose it? Probably not, but that happens a lot more often. It doesn't even register as a mistake because there's an understanding that as terran or zerg sometimes you'll lose some costly units, it's fine. If you're protoss, those types of interactions are amplified because just one of those mistakes, at a key point in the game, can very easily mean that you lose. And then after you lose, smart people will go "Oh yeah I see that he made this key mistake, clearly he is lacking in skill and his opponent is very deserving" and we end up in this current silly discussion. Ok, but see now you're agreeing with me that Protoss problems arent in how they are balanced, Protoss problems are in how they are DESIGNED. What you are describing is CORE unit interactions in the Protoss army. I agree with everything you said, I do think Protoss is overly punished for losing its valuable units, but I think that has to do with how Protoss is fundamentally designed and I've made long winded posts about how it all goes back to Warp Gate. The point, is that if this is how you feel about Protoss and the problems it is having, a simple patch fix isn't going to fix the race. The race needs CORE reworks to how it fundamentally operates. I've been saying that shit for 11 years. We could very easily fix that with balance, as we know because in other periods of the game, such as Heart of the Swarm, it was also true that you could lose games as protoss because you lost a key unit and protoss was still overpowered. But I agree there are design problems with the game, I just think it's terran causing them, and it's extremely obvious that nobody will ever touch the marine so I don't see point on focusing on that. Tbh what I'm doing here is also pointless, I'm mostly just wasting time waiting for Stormgate. The game has changed a lot since Heart of the Swarm. The economy changes have radically changed how macro games are played. The problems in Protoss design have always been there, but it wasn't until LotV that they have become THIS much of a problem. Even back in the day, to patch over the problems that Protoss had in their design Blizzard gave them a bullshit bandaid in the Mothership Core to help hide their problems and prop up their winrate. Is that the solution we want to do again to bring Protoss winrates back up? Would that make people happy? I'm willing to bet it won't. So like I said. Our options are rigging the game or fixing Protoss. We tried option 1 back in HotS with the Mothership Core. We could bring that back again, if that's the route we want to go. Or we can actually fix the problems that Blizzard was too chicken shit to fix back in WoL when we first talked about them. Yea because lotv is the Antithesis to protoss, fast expanding more Focus on Mobility, weaken deathballs etc. Right, which is why all adding the Mothership Core would do is double back down on the problematic design that Protoss has and push it further into this realm of being a cheesy all in race, that doesn't produce consistent champions like it was before. The Mothership Core promotes deathball style all ins by its very nature of being a hero unit. It cant be everywhere on the map at once. It would boost Protoss defense and help them survive early game aggression and allow them to be greedy, and then what? When the game spreads out, it offers almost nothing. Oh and if we're talking about units that Protoss can't afford to lose, it goes RIGHT to the top of the list. It won't fix any of the problems Protoss actually has. It will boost its winrate, but personally I don't care to see its winrate boosted if THAT is how we're going to do it. Y'all can make up your own minds though.
I mean we either boost the winrate by adding some workaround (realistic) or dont and say it needs a redesign (will never Happen)
I'd prefer Option a) here but only because i see b) never Happening.
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EPT
