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On October 10 2023 22:14 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2023 22:05 Fubika24 wrote:On October 10 2023 21:52 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On October 10 2023 19:05 Poopi wrote:On October 10 2023 19:03 Die4Ever wrote:
absolutely awful by Maru, has he been sleeping since his last GSL win? The new map pool + patch is quite zerg friendly Pass the blunt fam I want some of what's in there. GG to Creator and Solar! Terrible day by Maru though. This. If anything zerg got the short end of the patch, at least in ZvT. Banelings got a small nerf. Infestors got a small buff and a nerf / same for broodlords. Ultralisks and hydras got a small buff. Lurkers got a small nerf. Ghosts got a huge nerf especially TvZ -> overall terran lategame seems nerfed compared to before (but banelings ain't as strong in lategame) while zerg might be a little stronger. Maybe on smaller maps the baneling nerf would make terran allins more potent, but almost every new map feels super big so I doubt it changes that much in that regard? Not sure how zerg got the short end of the patch in these conditions (at least in ZvT)
Lmao. Ghosts got a relative buff vs infestors, and the snipe change basically only affects ultras.
And the bane health nerf affects a bunch of breakpoints in the matchup. It is the core of modern ZvT.
If combat shield was removed from the game I doubt you'd call it a small change 
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France12906 Posts
On October 10 2023 22:49 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2023 22:14 Poopi wrote:On October 10 2023 22:05 Fubika24 wrote:On October 10 2023 21:52 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On October 10 2023 19:05 Poopi wrote:On October 10 2023 19:03 Die4Ever wrote:
absolutely awful by Maru, has he been sleeping since his last GSL win? The new map pool + patch is quite zerg friendly Pass the blunt fam I want some of what's in there. GG to Creator and Solar! Terrible day by Maru though. This. If anything zerg got the short end of the patch, at least in ZvT. Banelings got a small nerf. Infestors got a small buff and a nerf / same for broodlords. Ultralisks and hydras got a small buff. Lurkers got a small nerf. Ghosts got a huge nerf especially TvZ -> overall terran lategame seems nerfed compared to before (but banelings ain't as strong in lategame) while zerg might be a little stronger. Maybe on smaller maps the baneling nerf would make terran allins more potent, but almost every new map feels super big so I doubt it changes that much in that regard? Not sure how zerg got the short end of the patch in these conditions (at least in ZvT) Lmao. Ghosts got a relative buff vs infestors, and the snipe change basically only affects ultras. And the bane health nerf affects a bunch of breakpoints in the matchup. It is the core of modern ZvT. If combat shield was removed from the game I doubt you'd call it a small change
Do you realize this was a hp buff to banelings in the first place?
Mostly because of ByuN back in the super early LotV days they buffed banelings hp with the upgrade. Now they reverted it. Otoh combat shield has been there since day 1 of WoL afaik.
Banelings were too strong and now they are back to their normal state
edit: see  Baneling (Legacy of the Void) -> patch 3.9.1 for source. Patch 3.8.0 which introduced baneling hp buff was right after the BlizzCon that ByuN won, when he introduced the "click / focus fire on banelings" micro trick instead of splitting to the masses (he probably showed it before in GSL).
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IMO zerg got the short end of the stick even if only by slightly, just because their power in straight up lategame fights has gotten weaker. So the gameplan isn't as simple as just survive to the lategame and win with mass spellcaster + spores + BL.
Sure BLs move a little faster, but in an actual fight they will be doing much less damage and trap units less due to the slower and weaker broodlings. I'd say BLs got overall nerfed. And fungal doing 5 less damage and having 1 less range.
And sure ghosts don't get as much out of snipe, but Thors are relatively even better vs BLs. Tanks are also a bit better vs Infestors now because slower and weaker broodlings means less friendly-fire splash, there's less need to get Liberators for Infestors now. So i think Terran got the good end of the stick out of this patch when it comes to a lategame fight.
And sure Hydras, Ultras, etc. are slightly better and Infestors come online faster, but banelings are also weaker, and Terran has an additional option of Cyclones too which gives more variety and aggressive options zerg has to watch out for now. I think the patch was a win for Terran (including Mech). Infestors and hydras coming online faster is kind of needed for the weaker banelings and the new Cyclones.
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Creator pulled through <3
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On October 10 2023 22:53 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2023 22:49 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On October 10 2023 22:14 Poopi wrote:On October 10 2023 22:05 Fubika24 wrote:On October 10 2023 21:52 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On October 10 2023 19:05 Poopi wrote:On October 10 2023 19:03 Die4Ever wrote:
absolutely awful by Maru, has he been sleeping since his last GSL win? The new map pool + patch is quite zerg friendly Pass the blunt fam I want some of what's in there. GG to Creator and Solar! Terrible day by Maru though. This. If anything zerg got the short end of the patch, at least in ZvT. Banelings got a small nerf. Infestors got a small buff and a nerf / same for broodlords. Ultralisks and hydras got a small buff. Lurkers got a small nerf. Ghosts got a huge nerf especially TvZ -> overall terran lategame seems nerfed compared to before (but banelings ain't as strong in lategame) while zerg might be a little stronger. Maybe on smaller maps the baneling nerf would make terran allins more potent, but almost every new map feels super big so I doubt it changes that much in that regard? Not sure how zerg got the short end of the patch in these conditions (at least in ZvT) Lmao. Ghosts got a relative buff vs infestors, and the snipe change basically only affects ultras. And the bane health nerf affects a bunch of breakpoints in the matchup. It is the core of modern ZvT. If combat shield was removed from the game I doubt you'd call it a small change Do you realize this was a hp buff to banelings in the first place? Mostly because of ByuN back in the super early LotV days they buffed banelings hp with the upgrade. Now they reverted it. Otoh combat shield has been there since day 1 of WoL afaik. Banelings were too strong and now they are back to their normal state edit: see Baneling (Legacy of the Void) -> patch 3.9.1 for source. Patch 3.8.0 which introduced baneling hp buff was right after the BlizzCon that ByuN won, when he introduced the "click / focus fire on banelings" micro trick instead of splitting to the masses (he probably showed it before in GSL).
ZvT was balanced before.
Core unit receives 2 nerfs - one of which changes a bunch of breakpoints.
Don't know how you honestly think this patch is good for Zerg m8.
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On October 10 2023 23:14 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2023 22:53 Poopi wrote:On October 10 2023 22:49 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On October 10 2023 22:14 Poopi wrote:On October 10 2023 22:05 Fubika24 wrote:On October 10 2023 21:52 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On October 10 2023 19:05 Poopi wrote:On October 10 2023 19:03 Die4Ever wrote:
absolutely awful by Maru, has he been sleeping since his last GSL win? The new map pool + patch is quite zerg friendly Pass the blunt fam I want some of what's in there. GG to Creator and Solar! Terrible day by Maru though. This. If anything zerg got the short end of the patch, at least in ZvT. Banelings got a small nerf. Infestors got a small buff and a nerf / same for broodlords. Ultralisks and hydras got a small buff. Lurkers got a small nerf. Ghosts got a huge nerf especially TvZ -> overall terran lategame seems nerfed compared to before (but banelings ain't as strong in lategame) while zerg might be a little stronger. Maybe on smaller maps the baneling nerf would make terran allins more potent, but almost every new map feels super big so I doubt it changes that much in that regard? Not sure how zerg got the short end of the patch in these conditions (at least in ZvT) Lmao. Ghosts got a relative buff vs infestors, and the snipe change basically only affects ultras. And the bane health nerf affects a bunch of breakpoints in the matchup. It is the core of modern ZvT. If combat shield was removed from the game I doubt you'd call it a small change Do you realize this was a hp buff to banelings in the first place? Mostly because of ByuN back in the super early LotV days they buffed banelings hp with the upgrade. Now they reverted it. Otoh combat shield has been there since day 1 of WoL afaik. Banelings were too strong and now they are back to their normal state edit: see Baneling (Legacy of the Void) -> patch 3.9.1 for source. Patch 3.8.0 which introduced baneling hp buff was right after the BlizzCon that ByuN won, when he introduced the "click / focus fire on banelings" micro trick instead of splitting to the masses (he probably showed it before in GSL). ZvT was balanced before. Core unit receives 2 nerfs - one of which changes a bunch of breakpoints. Don't know how you honestly think this patch is good for Zerg m8.
i mean i dont think the patch was good for zerg but neither do i think zerg needed a good patch on pro level either, if anything the baneling rn looks balanced and not dumb af.
If zerg now struggles try to work around that in other ways than making the bane this turbo dumb unit again.
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On October 10 2023 22:53 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2023 22:49 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On October 10 2023 22:14 Poopi wrote:On October 10 2023 22:05 Fubika24 wrote:On October 10 2023 21:52 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On October 10 2023 19:05 Poopi wrote:On October 10 2023 19:03 Die4Ever wrote:
absolutely awful by Maru, has he been sleeping since his last GSL win? The new map pool + patch is quite zerg friendly Pass the blunt fam I want some of what's in there. GG to Creator and Solar! Terrible day by Maru though. This. If anything zerg got the short end of the patch, at least in ZvT. Banelings got a small nerf. Infestors got a small buff and a nerf / same for broodlords. Ultralisks and hydras got a small buff. Lurkers got a small nerf. Ghosts got a huge nerf especially TvZ -> overall terran lategame seems nerfed compared to before (but banelings ain't as strong in lategame) while zerg might be a little stronger. Maybe on smaller maps the baneling nerf would make terran allins more potent, but almost every new map feels super big so I doubt it changes that much in that regard? Not sure how zerg got the short end of the patch in these conditions (at least in ZvT) Lmao. Ghosts got a relative buff vs infestors, and the snipe change basically only affects ultras. And the bane health nerf affects a bunch of breakpoints in the matchup. It is the core of modern ZvT. If combat shield was removed from the game I doubt you'd call it a small change Do you realize this was a hp buff to banelings in the first place? Mostly because of ByuN back in the super early LotV days they buffed banelings hp with the upgrade. Now they reverted it. Otoh combat shield has been there since day 1 of WoL afaik. Banelings were too strong and now they are back to their normal state edit: see Baneling (Legacy of the Void) -> patch 3.9.1 for source. Patch 3.8.0 which introduced baneling hp buff was right after the BlizzCon that ByuN won, when he introduced the "click / focus fire on banelings" micro trick instead of splitting to the masses (he probably showed it before in GSL).
It was also introduced because TvZ was 60% in favour of terran, but then the map pool changed to be gigantic and it stayed that way and still is that way today. That buff should have been reverted years ago if the maps stayed that way.
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Well, things just got interesting. Congrats to Scarlett on a brilliant showing despite the eventual loss.
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Do you realize this was a hp buff to banelings in the first place? Mostly because of ByuN back in the super early LotV days they buffed banelings hp with the upgrade. Now they reverted it. Otoh combat shield has been there since day 1 of WoL afaik. Banelings were too strong and now they are back to their normal state edit: see Baneling (Legacy of the Void) -> patch 3.9.1 for source. Patch 3.8.0 which introduced baneling hp buff was right after the BlizzCon that ByuN won, when he introduced the "click / focus fire on banelings" micro trick instead of splitting to the masses (he probably showed it before in GSL).
It seems people forget the baneling hp buff was originally 10 or 15? forgot the number..Then was toned down to 5 only. It happened at the same time that tank got changed to hit slower but for more damage.
I think back then, the balance team did the math and they needed at least 5hp buff so tanks wouldnt 1 shot nig clump of banes. I dont know the math around it at all, bit it seems like back then they did the math and 5 hp was actually a huge help and was needed.
I dont know how relevant it is, but i do think maybe people are sleeping on the tank ---> baneling interaction and the change was much bigger than some might think.
Once again, I havent done the math, but i clearly remember that was the logic behind the 5hp baneling buff.
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On October 10 2023 22:53 Poopi wrote:
Otoh combat shield has been there since day 1 of WoL afaik.
is not a good argument. The game is changing, otherwise you could also say bring back Infested Terran, because since day 1 of WoL....
On October 10 2023 22:53 Poopi wrote:Banelings were too strong and now they are back to their normal state edit: see Baneling (Legacy of the Void) -> patch 3.9.1 for source. Patch 3.8.0 which introduced baneling hp buff was right after the BlizzCon that ByuN won, when he introduced the "click / focus fire on banelings" micro trick instead of splitting to the masses (he probably showed it before in GSL).
3.8.0 -> Siege Tank change. Fun fact, also a major change for Cyclone.
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While I think Maru mainly lost due to poor form at the moment I do think people have very much overstated how bad this patch is for Zerg. Anyone who thinks the bane HP nerf should be reverted without some type of Terran compensation is crazy. The ghost nerf was way too big for the bane damage nerf to be the only big Zerg nerf. The nerfs to Lurker/BL are not that significant. Hell I think it's very debatable if the BL changes were even a nerf.
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Well, well well. Very exciting to return to something different after not having watched any pro SC in a couple of months. Interested to see how the rest of the groups pan out now.
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lmao, maru losing with clown builds was kinda embarrasing to see.... u.u
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On October 11 2023 05:02 JJH777 wrote:
While I think Maru mainly lost due to poor form at the moment I do think people have very much overstated how bad this patch is for Zerg. Anyone who thinks the bane HP nerf should be reverted without some type of Terran compensation is crazy. The ghost nerf was way too big for the bane damage nerf to be the only big Zerg nerf. The nerfs to Lurker/BL are not that significant. Hell I think it's very debatable if the BL changes were even a nerf.
People are so surprised to see Zerg nerfed in any way at all they're definitely overreacting.
Edit: I am kinda happy to see Maru out early, makes the tournament a lot more interesting. Still not as good as the time Patience crushed him though.
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On October 11 2023 05:12 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Well, well well. Very exciting to return to something different after not having watched any pro SC in a couple of months. Interested to see how the rest of the groups pan out now.
Indeed, even with his abysmal current form, a GSL with Maru out in the ro16 looks much more winnable for everyone else...
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On October 11 2023 02:19 Snakestyle1 wrote:Show nested quote +Do you realize this was a hp buff to banelings in the first place? Mostly because of ByuN back in the super early LotV days they buffed banelings hp with the upgrade. Now they reverted it. Otoh combat shield has been there since day 1 of WoL afaik. Banelings were too strong and now they are back to their normal state edit: see Baneling (Legacy of the Void) -> patch 3.9.1 for source. Patch 3.8.0 which introduced baneling hp buff was right after the BlizzCon that ByuN won, when he introduced the "click / focus fire on banelings" micro trick instead of splitting to the masses (he probably showed it before in GSL). It seems people forget the baneling hp buff was originally 10 or 15? forgot the number..Then was toned down to 5 only. It happened at the same time that tank got changed to hit slower but for more damage. I think back then, the balance team did the math and they needed at least 5hp buff so tanks wouldnt 1 shot nig clump of banes. I dont know the math around it at all, bit it seems like back then they did the math and 5 hp was actually a huge help and was needed. I dont know how relevant it is, but i do think maybe people are sleeping on the tank ---> baneling interaction and the change was much bigger than some might think. Once again, I havent done the math, but i clearly remember that was the logic behind the 5hp baneling buff.
No, tanks one-shotted banelings before the tank buff, and that buff was introduced at least partially as compensation for removing tankivacs. The baneling HP buff was a completely unnecessary and pointless change to a unit that was already incredibly strong.
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No Maru, no Rogue. Everyone has a chance to be in the final. Perhaps Dark again, Cure or herO if he returned to his form in 2022.
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yeah reverting the hidden HP buff that banelings got few years ago is just what had to happen, idependently of any other buff/nerf applied to any race for this patch.
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Baneling HP nerf was just super good and logical it seems.
A great way to reduce Zerg power overall, and helps both Terran and Protoss.
Or if the overall power is actually still about the same, what it did was make zerg have to diversify a bit more and not rely on mass banelings, which is always a good goal to have for game design. Zerg is very versatile (in the lore and gameplay in LotV), they should be taking advantage of their ability to adapt and switch unit compositions fluidly, not just massing Banelings.
And definitely NOT massing banelings to end the game before midgame really gets to start just because you got ahead a little early on. I've seen some pros complain on stream and say things like "come on i put in all that effort and got a small lead, i should have won already". A big downside of SC2 has always been games ending too fast with 1 big fight, instead of being more back and forth, and having games that let both players get to several bases so they have many chances to grind their way back in if they're more skilled or make many good reads/plays. (Though LotV has made great improvements in this, it's much better than in WoL/HotS). We don't want to see games end after being behind slightly!
Defender's advantage is also already very low in SC2. Nerfing banelings is a great way to stop zerg from endlessly crashing banelings into your 4th and forcing you to keep trading as soon as they get a better economy than you.
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EPT
