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On February 27 2022 08:04 Pandain wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 08:00 Acrofales wrote:On February 27 2022 07:55 NotSoHappy wrote:If the Zerg player has near-perfect mechanics and game sense, he will almost always win.
Serral recognized this earlier than any other Zerg and put it into practice. Perfect mechanics, scouting and response. Also knowledge when to drone and when to build army. OH wait I don't think the whole premise is fair. If it was about being perfect, we wouldn't have 3 Zerg be *this* dominant, with entirely different playstyles. Reynor is nothing like Serral is nothing like Rogue Serral plays a very scouting + response focused game, whereas Reynor relies almost entirely on his ridiculous mechanics. Rogue does far more mindgaming and general build order trickery. There's obviously something about the last patch that put Zerg slightly over the top, combined with a rather uniquely good crop of zerg players. I think just the remaining top zerg players are better. TY and Innovation retired recently. Classic/stats/hero all retired or came back from the military and we know how that goes. Meanwhile - only top zerg to leave in last four years was soO, and he was inconsistent at best. And if you removed foreigner land it would be completely even still in KR. It's just that Reynor and Serral are genuinely the best players from Europe and they happened to pick Zerg, thus tilting the overall S-class player pool to zerg. And I don't think anyone is debating that they are the best from europe, even ignoring race.
I realize I mispoke here. I just mean there are more S-class players who ARE zerg than Terran or PRotoss
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On February 27 2022 08:06 dysenterymd wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 08:04 Pandain wrote:On February 27 2022 08:00 Acrofales wrote:On February 27 2022 07:55 NotSoHappy wrote:If the Zerg player has near-perfect mechanics and game sense, he will almost always win.
Serral recognized this earlier than any other Zerg and put it into practice. Perfect mechanics, scouting and response. Also knowledge when to drone and when to build army. OH wait I don't think the whole premise is fair. If it was about being perfect, we wouldn't have 3 Zerg be *this* dominant, with entirely different playstyles. Reynor is nothing like Serral is nothing like Rogue Serral plays a very scouting + response focused game, whereas Reynor relies almost entirely on his ridiculous mechanics. Rogue does far more mindgaming and general build order trickery. There's obviously something about the last patch that put Zerg slightly over the top, combined with a rather uniquely good crop of zerg players. I think just the remaining top zerg players are better. TY and Innovation retired recently. Classic/stats/hero all retired or came back from the military and we know how that goes. Meanwhile - only top zerg to leave in last four years was soO, and he was inconsistent at best. And if you removed foreigner land it would be completely even still. It's just that Reynor and Serral are genuinely the best players from Europe and they happened to pick Zerg. And I don't think anyone is debating that they are the best, even ignoring race. Honestly I think Protoss is just straight up weak, they were struggling to win GSL/world championships even before all their best players retired. Terran I think it is more about the retirements
I kinda agree with Reynor. Just delete protoss. They have by far the largest number of units that are just not fun at all to play against. Disruptors are miserable, DT, Carriers, Tempests, Void Rays. Delete Protoss and the rest of the game is easier to balance too 
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On February 27 2022 08:03 Spirral wrote:
The balance whine and delusion is so strong. It was clear Maru was simply not at his best today. He didn't look top shape in previous series either. When you have two top players going at each other, but only one brings their A game that day, you won't get a close series.
The stats beg to differ. Zerg have absolutely dominated major/premier level tournament level play for years. They dwarf protoss and terran wins combined. If you remove Trap and Maru from their respective races, the results are absolutely dismal (actually even with Trap Protoss is garbage). The same can't be said with Zerg. There's no anomaly or single player skewing results - Rogue, Dark, Reynor, Serral, etc... Guess all zergs are just harder working and more talented.
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Northern Ireland25548 Posts
On February 27 2022 08:00 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 07:55 NotSoHappy wrote:If the Zerg player has near-perfect mechanics and game sense, he will almost always win.
Serral recognized this earlier than any other Zerg and put it into practice. Perfect mechanics, scouting and response. Also knowledge when to drone and when to build army. OH wait I don't think the whole premise is fair. If it was about being perfect, we wouldn't have 3 Zerg be *this* dominant, with entirely different playstyles. Reynor is nothing like Serral is nothing like Rogue Serral plays a very scouting + response focused game, whereas Reynor relies almost entirely on his ridiculous mechanics. Rogue does far more mindgaming and general build order trickery. There's obviously something about the last patch that put Zerg slightly over the top, combined with a rather uniquely good crop of zerg players.
The big 4 of Zerg are absurdly good.
Zerg might be in need of a retuning, better maps, Protoss certainly seem like it.
But it’s a tad overblown, if Zerg was outright broken and those players weren’t incredible, that next tier of Zergs like Solar, DRG, Lambo, Rag, Armani, Elazer etc would be making more hay than they are.
The WoL BL/Infestor era you saw Zergs post results they never marched before or after, it’s not something we’re seeing now
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On February 27 2022 08:09 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 08:06 dysenterymd wrote:On February 27 2022 08:04 Pandain wrote:On February 27 2022 08:00 Acrofales wrote:On February 27 2022 07:55 NotSoHappy wrote:If the Zerg player has near-perfect mechanics and game sense, he will almost always win.
Serral recognized this earlier than any other Zerg and put it into practice. Perfect mechanics, scouting and response. Also knowledge when to drone and when to build army. OH wait I don't think the whole premise is fair. If it was about being perfect, we wouldn't have 3 Zerg be *this* dominant, with entirely different playstyles. Reynor is nothing like Serral is nothing like Rogue Serral plays a very scouting + response focused game, whereas Reynor relies almost entirely on his ridiculous mechanics. Rogue does far more mindgaming and general build order trickery. There's obviously something about the last patch that put Zerg slightly over the top, combined with a rather uniquely good crop of zerg players. I think just the remaining top zerg players are better. TY and Innovation retired recently. Classic/stats/hero all retired or came back from the military and we know how that goes. Meanwhile - only top zerg to leave in last four years was soO, and he was inconsistent at best. And if you removed foreigner land it would be completely even still. It's just that Reynor and Serral are genuinely the best players from Europe and they happened to pick Zerg. And I don't think anyone is debating that they are the best, even ignoring race. Honestly I think Protoss is just straight up weak, they were struggling to win GSL/world championships even before all their best players retired. Terran I think it is more about the retirements I kinda agree with Reynor. Just delete protoss. They have by far the largest number of units that are just not fun at all to play against. Disruptors are miserable, DT, Carriers, Tempests, Void Rays. Delete Protoss and the rest of the game is easier to balance too
at this rate he'll get his wish. more and more of the korean protosses are retiring and then it'll just be z and t left and whenever maru retires, it'll just be zerg at the top level.
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i knew serral vs maru is gonna suck again cause maru is a butterfly outside of korea if its either a bit too late, the light shine too bright or any other stuff he just doesn't perform to his potential. Its a shame cause Serral performed well.
Cant really blame him for Blackburn but not veto'ing pride.. over Glittering, I aint sure. Also just didnt seem super on point in Berlingrad either :X disappointed
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On February 27 2022 08:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 08:00 Acrofales wrote:On February 27 2022 07:55 NotSoHappy wrote:If the Zerg player has near-perfect mechanics and game sense, he will almost always win.
Serral recognized this earlier than any other Zerg and put it into practice. Perfect mechanics, scouting and response. Also knowledge when to drone and when to build army. OH wait I don't think the whole premise is fair. If it was about being perfect, we wouldn't have 3 Zerg be *this* dominant, with entirely different playstyles. Reynor is nothing like Serral is nothing like Rogue Serral plays a very scouting + response focused game, whereas Reynor relies almost entirely on his ridiculous mechanics. Rogue does far more mindgaming and general build order trickery. There's obviously something about the last patch that put Zerg slightly over the top, combined with a rather uniquely good crop of zerg players. The big 4 of Zerg are absurdly good. Zerg might be in need of a retuning, better maps, Protoss certainly seem like it. But it’s a tad overblown, if Zerg was outright broken and those players weren’t incredible, that next tier of Zergs like Solar, DRG, Lambo, Rag, Armani, Elazer etc would be making more hay than they are. The WoL BL/Infestor era you saw Zergs post results they never marched before or after, it’s not something we’re seeing now
I think creep is fundamentally flawed. Zerg is too reliant on it. Great creep wins you the game, too little loses it . At least against Top terran.
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On February 27 2022 08:00 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 07:55 NotSoHappy wrote:If the Zerg player has near-perfect mechanics and game sense, he will almost always win.
Serral recognized this earlier than any other Zerg and put it into practice. Perfect mechanics, scouting and response. Also knowledge when to drone and when to build army. OH wait I don't think the whole premise is fair. If it was about being perfect, we wouldn't have 3 Zerg be *this* dominant, with entirely different playstyles. Reynor is nothing like Serral is nothing like Rogue Serral plays a very scouting + response focused game, whereas Reynor relies almost entirely on his ridiculous mechanics. Rogue does far more mindgaming and general build order trickery. There's obviously something about the last patch that put Zerg slightly over the top, combined with a rather uniquely good crop of zerg players.
not really. all of them just are that good. and reynor plays more strategy than you say so. especially in zvz. that kid is smart.
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On February 27 2022 08:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 08:00 Acrofales wrote:On February 27 2022 07:55 NotSoHappy wrote:If the Zerg player has near-perfect mechanics and game sense, he will almost always win.
Serral recognized this earlier than any other Zerg and put it into practice. Perfect mechanics, scouting and response. Also knowledge when to drone and when to build army. OH wait I don't think the whole premise is fair. If it was about being perfect, we wouldn't have 3 Zerg be *this* dominant, with entirely different playstyles. Reynor is nothing like Serral is nothing like Rogue Serral plays a very scouting + response focused game, whereas Reynor relies almost entirely on his ridiculous mechanics. Rogue does far more mindgaming and general build order trickery. There's obviously something about the last patch that put Zerg slightly over the top, combined with a rather uniquely good crop of zerg players. The big 4 of Zerg are absurdly good. Zerg might be in need of a retuning, better maps, Protoss certainly seem like it. But it’s a tad overblown, if Zerg was outright broken and those players weren’t incredible, that next tier of Zergs like Solar, DRG, Lambo, Rag, Armani, Elazer etc would be making more hay than they are. The WoL BL/Infestor era you saw Zergs post results they never marched before or after, it’s not something we’re seeing now
I don't think this is really true. A race being clearly strong doesn't automatically give zergs of every tier a free pass through tournaments. For years, protoss and terran stats have barely been saved (well not even for protoss) by a single player. If it wasn't for Maru existing, terran would be in a similar boat as protoss with almost no wins at major/premier tournaments. Trap has done the same for protoss to some degree, but even then it looks horrible.
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On February 27 2022 08:14 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 08:10 WombaT wrote:On February 27 2022 08:00 Acrofales wrote:On February 27 2022 07:55 NotSoHappy wrote:If the Zerg player has near-perfect mechanics and game sense, he will almost always win.
Serral recognized this earlier than any other Zerg and put it into practice. Perfect mechanics, scouting and response. Also knowledge when to drone and when to build army. OH wait I don't think the whole premise is fair. If it was about being perfect, we wouldn't have 3 Zerg be *this* dominant, with entirely different playstyles. Reynor is nothing like Serral is nothing like Rogue Serral plays a very scouting + response focused game, whereas Reynor relies almost entirely on his ridiculous mechanics. Rogue does far more mindgaming and general build order trickery. There's obviously something about the last patch that put Zerg slightly over the top, combined with a rather uniquely good crop of zerg players. The big 4 of Zerg are absurdly good. Zerg might be in need of a retuning, better maps, Protoss certainly seem like it. But it’s a tad overblown, if Zerg was outright broken and those players weren’t incredible, that next tier of Zergs like Solar, DRG, Lambo, Rag, Armani, Elazer etc would be making more hay than they are. The WoL BL/Infestor era you saw Zergs post results they never marched before or after, it’s not something we’re seeing now I think creep is fundamentally flawed. Zerg is too reliant on it. Great creep wins you the game, too little loses it . At least against Top terran.
Yes I agree with this. Well put.
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OK Rogue is doing Rogue thing from the get go, brace yourselves
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peak rogue gaming right here
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 27 2022 08:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 08:00 Acrofales wrote:On February 27 2022 07:55 NotSoHappy wrote:If the Zerg player has near-perfect mechanics and game sense, he will almost always win.
Serral recognized this earlier than any other Zerg and put it into practice. Perfect mechanics, scouting and response. Also knowledge when to drone and when to build army. OH wait I don't think the whole premise is fair. If it was about being perfect, we wouldn't have 3 Zerg be *this* dominant, with entirely different playstyles. Reynor is nothing like Serral is nothing like Rogue Serral plays a very scouting + response focused game, whereas Reynor relies almost entirely on his ridiculous mechanics. Rogue does far more mindgaming and general build order trickery. There's obviously something about the last patch that put Zerg slightly over the top, combined with a rather uniquely good crop of zerg players. The big 4 of Zerg are absurdly good. Zerg might be in need of a retuning, better maps, Protoss certainly seem like it. But it’s a tad overblown, if Zerg was outright broken and those players weren’t incredible, that next tier of Zergs like Solar, DRG, Lambo, Rag, Armani, Elazer etc would be making more hay than they are. The WoL BL/Infestor era you saw Zergs post results they never marched before or after, it’s not something we’re seeing now
Well, how about the idea that maybe you need to be really good to get Zerg to being OP? Similarly we can talk about Maru when he's playing on his good day, Terran looks broken. The hard part is that only Maru can do it with Terran, 4 players can do it with Zerg. The question is if it's a balance issue, i say yes.
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On February 27 2022 08:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2022 08:00 Acrofales wrote:On February 27 2022 07:55 NotSoHappy wrote:If the Zerg player has near-perfect mechanics and game sense, he will almost always win.
Serral recognized this earlier than any other Zerg and put it into practice. Perfect mechanics, scouting and response. Also knowledge when to drone and when to build army. OH wait I don't think the whole premise is fair. If it was about being perfect, we wouldn't have 3 Zerg be *this* dominant, with entirely different playstyles. Reynor is nothing like Serral is nothing like Rogue Serral plays a very scouting + response focused game, whereas Reynor relies almost entirely on his ridiculous mechanics. Rogue does far more mindgaming and general build order trickery. There's obviously something about the last patch that put Zerg slightly over the top, combined with a rather uniquely good crop of zerg players. The big 4 of Zerg are absurdly good. Zerg might be in need of a retuning, better maps, Protoss certainly seem like it. But it’s a tad overblown, if Zerg was outright broken and those players weren’t incredible, that next tier of Zergs like Solar, DRG, Lambo, Rag, Armani, Elazer etc would be making more hay than they are. The WoL BL/Infestor era you saw Zergs post results they never marched before or after, it’s not something we’re seeing now
Zerg has been the safest and strongest race for years.
They win 100% of the time if they don't make any significant mistakes.
Because such near-perfect play is only seen at the very top level, the imbalance exists only there.
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Ok maru lost, we are all sad now. Can we go over and enjoy the ZvZs?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Did just Rotti said he was expecting a good matchup Maru v Serral at 11 PM outside of Korea?  He's so naive and cute
Edit> damn, got trolled with Rogue doing Rogue things 
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What's funny is that if a player loose two time in RO4 in a tournament and another player win the tournament and then loose at the beginning the next time everybody will remember the former champion but statistically speaking the guy having two ro4 is "better" is a sense that he beat more players of his caliber (supposing that the field of players is relatively even, and that the path of the 2 players can be compared (brackets were comparable) more often. History always remember trophies and only trophies.
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Rogue scared of a real game.
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What are probabilities that Rogue is facing Heromarine in the final?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 27 2022 08:22 swarminfestor wrote:
What are probabilities that Rogue is facing Heromarine in the final?
Quite low. I wouldn't even bet on Rogue being in the finals considering how late is.
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EPT
