|
On November 14 2021 02:22 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 02:16 Durnuu wrote:On November 14 2021 02:14 DarkGamer wrote:On November 14 2021 02:07 JJH777 wrote:On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote:
Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest. If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT. I would: Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3 No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument. No, because you don't determine the GOAT from 3 years of playing competitively in a game that has a (so far) 11-year lifespan I mean, generally in real-world sports you do determine GOATs more by periods of dominance much more than long-term consistency near the top relative to the lifespan of the game (?). If we take that into account, though, three years is actually quite a long time relative to a mere 11-year lifespan. There's a reason why players like MVP still get brought up in GOAT discussions in SC2. Sports and ESPORTs both involve too many factors over too much time to be able to easily compare absolute skill. GOAT status is more about being a legend than about having the highest skill imo.
Not really, MJ is the GOAT of basketball because he won 6 rings. Tom Brady is the GOAT of football because he has won 7 rings. In the end it still coming down to winning championship, as well as personal performance, but more on the championship side. And Serral dominance did not last 3 years, it was early 2018 till end of 2019 so its around a year and a half. He has been relevant still but not really dominating in 2020 and 2021.
|
France12912 Posts
On November 14 2021 02:29 tigera6 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 02:22 Captain Peabody wrote:On November 14 2021 02:16 Durnuu wrote:On November 14 2021 02:14 DarkGamer wrote:On November 14 2021 02:07 JJH777 wrote:On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote:
Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest. If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT. I would: Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3 No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument. No, because you don't determine the GOAT from 3 years of playing competitively in a game that has a (so far) 11-year lifespan I mean, generally in real-world sports you do determine GOATs more by periods of dominance much more than long-term consistency near the top relative to the lifespan of the game (?). If we take that into account, though, three years is actually quite a long time relative to a mere 11-year lifespan. There's a reason why players like MVP still get brought up in GOAT discussions in SC2. Sports and ESPORTs both involve too many factors over too much time to be able to easily compare absolute skill. GOAT status is more about being a legend than about having the highest skill imo. Not really, MJ is the GOAT of basketball because he won 6 rings. Tom Brady is the GOAT of football because he has won 7 rings. In the end it still coming down to winning championship, as well as personal performance, but more on the championship side. And Serral dominance did not last 3 years, it was early 2018 till end of 2019 so its around a year and a half. He has been relevant still but not really dominating in 2020 and 2021.
MJ being the GOAT is far from coming down to the 6 rings though? Bill Russell has 11, Wilt Chamberlain has a lot of records, etc.
It's just that MJ's era had a lot more competition than BR/WC, he made basketball popular, he was a scoring machine, his era is still comparable to today's era, etc.
Then, and only when you start comparing him to recent GOAT candidates such as Lebron James, the rings come into play, to compare it against players from a similar era.
|
two bets on Scarlett ? Bold !
|
The goat thing (the on stream goat thing, not the thread GOAT thing) is so stupid but so funny.
The GOAT discussion is the thread is just stupid and annoying.
|
Hey look, there's Zest, trying to carry Protoss again. Let's see how it works out for us.
|
Is this the first time Pride of Altaris is being played in this tournament?
|
On November 14 2021 02:22 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 02:14 DarkGamer wrote:On November 14 2021 02:07 JJH777 wrote:On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote:
Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest. If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT. I would: Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3 No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument. And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You'd better stop hating on Serral and recognize he's one of the greatest players ever.
You don't think he's the GOAT? Understandable, I wouldn't say he is.
Trying to downsell his countless tournament victories and placements, his unparalleled streaks and win ratio(against koreans, more importantly) and his absolute domination over Sc2 at his peak is frankly ridicolous in 2021.
|
Probably gonna be a Maru vs Serral final. Don't know why Serral gets these easy brackets so often though
|
On November 14 2021 02:22 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 02:14 DarkGamer wrote:On November 14 2021 02:07 JJH777 wrote:On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote:
Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest. If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT. I would: Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3 No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument. And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies 
To your question: for example gsl st!
|
On November 14 2021 02:28 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 02:13 Captain Peabody wrote:On November 14 2021 01:37 Charoisaur wrote:On November 14 2021 01:35 HeroSandro wrote:On November 14 2021 01:34 Sif_ wrote:On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote:
If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism. Yes, if foreigners never compete consistently in the highest tier then they'll never have a goat. World championships are only for foreigners?  their performance at World championships surely don't qualify them as GOAT. Serral has 1, Rogue 3 I mean the big difficulty of foreigner vs Korean comparison is that the first 2/3rds to 3/4s of SC2's existence were dominated by Koreans to the point that there really was no question that they were the best (and to the extent that we had world championships that were entirely Korean). There's no question that the top Korean players have been at the top longer than the top foreigners. There's also not really any question that the general foreigner vs Korean skill balance has drastically changed in the last few years. Sure but I don't think we should disregard everything that happened before 2018 because of this. From 2018 on Serral may be the most succesful player but looking at their whole careers I don't think he has a claim. it's not the korean's fault foreigners weren't competitive before. Well technically it is but you know what I mean
Right, it's definitely relevant, but also it seems disingenuous to use foreigners not being that good prior to 2018 as an argument for Koreans still being universally better in 2021.
Idk, I've never been much of a Serral fan (I prefer Reynor among top foreigners and I mostly watch GSL anyway), but there has to be a way to acknowledge the impact that Serral had on the entire course of SC2 by being the first player to absolutely dominate foreigner SC AND almost single-handedly raise the bar for foreign SC as a whole and thus bring about the present era where top foreigners can actually consistently compete with top Koreans without also pretending like he's the most skilled and consistent player in some kind of absolute terms (which I don't think he is).
I found the era where Serral won everything in WCS to be pretty boring actually, but he'll always be a legend for a lot of reasons that are pretty much impossible to replicate and which wouldn't really change if he sucked from now own. I don't mind if you call that GOAT (just as I don't mind if ppl call MVP a GOAT).
|
On November 14 2021 02:16 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 02:14 DarkGamer wrote:On November 14 2021 02:07 JJH777 wrote:On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote:
Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest. If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT. I would: Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3 No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument. No, because you don't determine the GOAT from 3 years of playing competitively in a game that has a (so far) 11-year lifespan
I would.
|
United States33598 Posts
Classic beat Rogue's fast gold on Altaris by going Tempests, tho Rogue kinda fucked up. Interesting regardless.
|
On November 14 2021 02:39 DarkGamer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 02:22 JJH777 wrote:On November 14 2021 02:14 DarkGamer wrote:On November 14 2021 02:07 JJH777 wrote:On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote:
Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest. If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT. I would: Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3 No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument. And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents. You should look up your numbers before stating lies To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
|
On November 14 2021 02:42 Waxangel wrote:
Classic beat Rogue's fast gold on Altaris by going Tempests, tho Rogue kinda fucked up. Interesting regardless.
I feel like Zest made some very poor decisions here. Canceling the upgrade earlier, then half killing another base before leaving.
|
Questionable decisions by Zest
those tempests at home and he wins automatically lol
|
|
|
On November 14 2021 02:41 Captain Peabody wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 02:28 Charoisaur wrote:On November 14 2021 02:13 Captain Peabody wrote:On November 14 2021 01:37 Charoisaur wrote:On November 14 2021 01:35 HeroSandro wrote:On November 14 2021 01:34 Sif_ wrote:On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote:
If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism. Yes, if foreigners never compete consistently in the highest tier then they'll never have a goat. World championships are only for foreigners? their performance at World championships surely don't qualify them as GOAT. Serral has 1, Rogue 3 I mean the big difficulty of foreigner vs Korean comparison is that the first 2/3rds to 3/4s of SC2's existence were dominated by Koreans to the point that there really was no question that they were the best (and to the extent that we had world championships that were entirely Korean). There's no question that the top Korean players have been at the top longer than the top foreigners. There's also not really any question that the general foreigner vs Korean skill balance has drastically changed in the last few years. Sure but I don't think we should disregard everything that happened before 2018 because of this. From 2018 on Serral may be the most succesful player but looking at their whole careers I don't think he has a claim. it's not the korean's fault foreigners weren't competitive before. Well technically it is but you know what I mean Right, it's definitely relevant, but also it seems disingenuous to use foreigners not being that good prior to 2018 as an argument for Koreans still being universally better in 2021. Idk, I've never been much of a Serral fan (I prefer Reynor among top foreigners and I mostly watch GSL anyway), but there has to be a way to acknowledge the impact that Serral had on the entire course of SC2 by being the first player to absolutely dominate foreigner SC AND almost single-handedly raise the bar for foreign SC as a whole and thus bring about the present era where top foreigners can actually consistently compete with top Koreans without also pretending like he's the most skilled and consistent player in some kind of absolute terms (which I don't think he is). I found the era where Serral won everything in WCS to be pretty boring actually, but he'll always be a legend for a lot of reasons that are pretty much impossible to replicate and which wouldn't really change if he sucked from now own. I don't mind if you call that GOAT (just as I don't mind if ppl call MVP a GOAT).
Fair, but then you would choose your Goat not by the criteria of "most accomplished player" which is what most people have in mind when using that word but by other subjective criteria.
This is then probably where the misunderstanding comes from
|
The Tempest build was nice, but over-commited those away was pretty bad. He could have sniped the Queen-Ravager one by one with good enough micro.
|
On November 14 2021 02:42 JJH777 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2021 02:39 DarkGamer wrote:On November 14 2021 02:22 JJH777 wrote:On November 14 2021 02:14 DarkGamer wrote:On November 14 2021 02:07 JJH777 wrote:On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote:
Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest. If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT. I would: Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3 No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument. And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents. You should look up your numbers before stating lies To your question: for example gsl st! What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
Oh you are right: gsl vs the world!
2019: wins against ty classic trap and elazer
2018: wins against stats maru innovation and kelazur
I think that are impressive runs. Especially in 2019 every Korean wanted to beat serral badly and ty classic and trap couldn’t do it. One worse opponent in a tournament run doesn’t decrease the achievment.
Now tell me plz in which 8 “world championships” serral competeted and didn’t win? So u c ur lie now? Or u tell me in which 15 open qualifiers he participate and didn’t qualify? U don’t have to answer, cuz its obviously wrong.
|
On November 14 2021 02:47 tigera6 wrote:
The Tempest build was nice, but over-commited those away was pretty bad. He could have sniped the Queen-Ravager one by one with good enough micro.
I thought they did really well on defense
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
