On November 10 2021 00:54 swarminfestor wrote: Why did Cure not making Ghosts for Game 2 and Game 3?
Game 2 Cure was way behind he cant afford Ghost, he barely had any resource for a max out army. Game 3, Scarlett never went for full Lurker-Viper, so Ghost is not required, until Cure got hit with that Broodlord army. Even then, there was no spell caster on Scarlett side, so Viking would be a better choice than Ghost.
Scarlett clearly practiced against that Glaive into Disruptor-Stalker style from Trap. She was keeping a low drone count, and never went for the 4th base when Trap has not dropped down his 3rd.
This really look like how Trap lost against Dark GSL and Serral in previous DH Grand Final. Somehow he just get overwhelmed and punched into the mouth like that.
On November 10 2021 01:45 MJG wrote: Going for a ground army in PvZ is an interesting choice...
Trap used to win many championship with that style, he barely play Skytoss until recently. But his build got scouted and heavy countered badly. Also the execution was pretty poor today as well, losing both Disruptor early was just bad.
On November 10 2021 01:45 MJG wrote: Going for a ground army in PvZ is an interesting choice...
Trap used to win many championship with that style, he barely play Skytoss until recently. But his build got scouted and heavy countered badly. Also the execution was pretty poor today as well, losing both Disruptor early was just bad.
Trap's PvZ and PvT both seem to rely on super sharp execution, if he's even a little bit off on the day he can just end up looking silly. When he's on point he's terrifying though.
Honestly not that surprising. Scarlett has been looking good lately. On the other hand Trap and Cure have been struggling since last GSL. Especially Trap just looks like he is not having a good time with the game right now, expecting him to go out today.
You have to remember as well that it's 3am in Korea at the moment. It's not surprising that we won't see long games from them, although Trap is definitely in a slump at the moment.
Similar to game 2 of Scarlett vs Cure, Trap was ahead too much that he could afford to lose the initial fight as long as he got the production to remax. Cure best chance was to attack the 4th and 5th after taking down the 3rd, standing outside waiting for Trap to bust out wasnt a great idea imo.
I'm very sad to see how a season final (though not a yearly final) is garnering a couple dozen replies on TL. It used to have hundreds of replies back in the days whenever we had a major event. Did SC2 fandom just vaporize over the years?
On November 10 2021 08:33 highsis wrote: I'm very sad to see how a season final (though not a yearly final) is garnering a couple dozen replies on TL. It used to have hundreds of replies back in the days whenever we had a major event. Did SC2 fandom just vaporize over the years?
Forums in general attract less people nowadays: most people communicate on Reddit, but obviously since StarCraft is less popular than LoL their respective Reddit are miles away in terms of activity. However, we have people communicating in twitch chat in their various communities / streams as told by the poster above, and they are also talking a bit on players discords etc.
Plus, group A is the least exciting of them all (arguably, Scarlett made it spicy though ), and online season finals aren’t that hype (and there are three per season) because of the ping issues etc. I expect Katowice (which will be played offline with live audience) to gather a lot more posts (the tickets were sold out really quickly), although obviously not as many pages as the glory days!
On November 10 2021 08:33 highsis wrote: I'm very sad to see how a season final (though not a yearly final) is garnering a couple dozen replies on TL. It used to have hundreds of replies back in the days whenever we had a major event. Did SC2 fandom just vaporize over the years?
There are a few reasons for this I think. One is that all the tournaments these days are online, and this makes it feel like it's the same for all tournaments. ESL is doing what they can to differentiate the Season Finals with the regular season, but in the end it still feels the same-ish as many of the other tournaments.
Also, as mentioned, there's the ping issue, though I don't think it's that big a concern. A bigger concern is the timezone question. That means that in each of these Season Finals, the majority of the players are playing in a timeslot that's completely disadvantageous to them. This has been brought up numerous times, but nothing has been done about it. There are some who said that it's not an issue, but I'm not convinced. Even then, all 6 Season Finals are done in the same timeslot, and it's always the Koreans/NA players who are disadvantaged, never the EU players. Add to the fact that the scheduling of the Season Finals are horrible for the Koreans (right in the middle of their GSL season - imagine scheduling the Season Finals during one of the EU regionals... it's just terrible).
This reduces the credibility of the tournament, and that's why the hype just isn't as big. I find myself not that invested into the Season Finals as much as I do for other tournaments.
At the end of the day, what differentiates this Season Finals in its presentation compared to another online tournament like TSL or King of Battles or NeXT? Aside from the prize pool, the player pool is roughly the same. In fact, some might argue that the player pools for those are of even higher quality than these Season Finals as each player has to qualify for them.
That's why the announcement that IEM Katowice 2022 will be offline is big for me. It's finally an offline event, and there's no more such issues as I mentioned (though people will say jet lag, but that's just nonsense given that the players will be there for so long).
On November 10 2021 08:33 highsis wrote: I'm very sad to see how a season final (though not a yearly final) is garnering a couple dozen replies on TL. It used to have hundreds of replies back in the days whenever we had a major event. Did SC2 fandom just vaporize over the years?
There are a few reasons for this I think. One is that all the tournaments these days are online, and this makes it feel like it's the same for all tournaments. ESL is doing what they can to differentiate the Season Finals with the regular season, but in the end it still feels the same-ish as many of the other tournaments.
Also, as mentioned, there's the ping issue, though I don't think it's that big a concern. A bigger concern is the timezone question. That means that in each of these Season Finals, the majority of the players are playing in a timeslot that's completely disadvantageous to them. This has been brought up numerous times, but nothing has been done about it. There are some who said that it's not an issue, but I'm not convinced. Even then, all 6 Season Finals are done in the same timeslot, and it's always the Koreans/NA players who are disadvantaged, never the EU players. Add to the fact that the scheduling of the Season Finals are horrible for the Koreans (right in the middle of their GSL season - imagine scheduling the Season Finals during one of the EU regionals... it's just terrible).
This reduces the credibility of the tournament, and that's why the hype just isn't as big. I find myself not that invested into the Season Finals as much as I do for other tournaments.
At the end of the day, what differentiates this Season Finals in its presentation compared to another online tournament like TSL or King of Battles or NeXT? Aside from the prize pool, the player pool is roughly the same. In fact, some might argue that the player pools for those are of even higher quality than these Season Finals as each player has to qualify for them.
That's why the announcement that IEM Katowice 2022 will be offline is big for me. It's finally an offline event, and there's no more such issues as I mentioned (though people will say jet lag, but that's just nonsense given that the players will be there for so long).
Agree with all this but I also think most SC2 fans (especially TLers) are adults now and have a full-time job, a girlfriend or even a family as of now and can't invest as much time in following the scene anymore
On November 10 2021 08:33 highsis wrote: I'm very sad to see how a season final (though not a yearly final) is garnering a couple dozen replies on TL. It used to have hundreds of replies back in the days whenever we had a major event. Did SC2 fandom just vaporize over the years?
There are a few reasons for this I think. One is that all the tournaments these days are online, and this makes it feel like it's the same for all tournaments. ESL is doing what they can to differentiate the Season Finals with the regular season, but in the end it still feels the same-ish as many of the other tournaments.
Also, as mentioned, there's the ping issue, though I don't think it's that big a concern. A bigger concern is the timezone question. That means that in each of these Season Finals, the majority of the players are playing in a timeslot that's completely disadvantageous to them. This has been brought up numerous times, but nothing has been done about it. There are some who said that it's not an issue, but I'm not convinced. Even then, all 6 Season Finals are done in the same timeslot, and it's always the Koreans/NA players who are disadvantaged, never the EU players. Add to the fact that the scheduling of the Season Finals are horrible for the Koreans (right in the middle of their GSL season - imagine scheduling the Season Finals during one of the EU regionals... it's just terrible).
This reduces the credibility of the tournament, and that's why the hype just isn't as big. I find myself not that invested into the Season Finals as much as I do for other tournaments.
At the end of the day, what differentiates this Season Finals in its presentation compared to another online tournament like TSL or King of Battles or NeXT? Aside from the prize pool, the player pool is roughly the same. In fact, some might argue that the player pools for those are of even higher quality than these Season Finals as each player has to qualify for them.
That's why the announcement that IEM Katowice 2022 will be offline is big for me. It's finally an offline event, and there's no more such issues as I mentioned (though people will say jet lag, but that's just nonsense given that the players will be there for so long).
Agree with all this but I also think most SC2 fans (especially TLers) are adults now and have a full-time job, a girlfriend or even a family as of now and can't invest as much time in following the scene anymore
Yups, that's me. I simply don't have all the time in the world to follow everything. I do try to make the effort. However, when I know there are some disadvantages stacked against a particular group of players, I just lose interest or don't become invested in it. I'll still watch it, but not with as much interest.
Agree with all this but I also think most SC2 fans (especially TLers) are adults now and have a full-time job, a girlfriend or even a family as of now and can't invest as much time in following the scene anymore
This is true for me, luckily nowadays I have a job that allows me to watch/listen streams when its computer time.
On November 10 2021 08:33 highsis wrote: I'm very sad to see how a season final (though not a yearly final) is garnering a couple dozen replies on TL. It used to have hundreds of replies back in the days whenever we had a major event. Did SC2 fandom just vaporize over the years?
There are a few reasons for this I think. One is that all the tournaments these days are online, and this makes it feel like it's the same for all tournaments. ESL is doing what they can to differentiate the Season Finals with the regular season, but in the end it still feels the same-ish as many of the other tournaments.
Also, as mentioned, there's the ping issue, though I don't think it's that big a concern. A bigger concern is the timezone question. That means that in each of these Season Finals, the majority of the players are playing in a timeslot that's completely disadvantageous to them. This has been brought up numerous times, but nothing has been done about it. There are some who said that it's not an issue, but I'm not convinced. Even then, all 6 Season Finals are done in the same timeslot, and it's always the Koreans/NA players who are disadvantaged, never the EU players. Add to the fact that the scheduling of the Season Finals are horrible for the Koreans (right in the middle of their GSL season - imagine scheduling the Season Finals during one of the EU regionals... it's just terrible).
This reduces the credibility of the tournament, and that's why the hype just isn't as big. I find myself not that invested into the Season Finals as much as I do for other tournaments.
At the end of the day, what differentiates this Season Finals in its presentation compared to another online tournament like TSL or King of Battles or NeXT? Aside from the prize pool, the player pool is roughly the same. In fact, some might argue that the player pools for those are of even higher quality than these Season Finals as each player has to qualify for them.
That's why the announcement that IEM Katowice 2022 will be offline is big for me. It's finally an offline event, and there's no more such issues as I mentioned (though people will say jet lag, but that's just nonsense given that the players will be there for so long).
Agree with all this but I also think most SC2 fans (especially TLers) are adults now and have a full-time job, a girlfriend or even a family as of now and can't invest as much time in following the scene anymore
This is actually a great point I didn't even think about.
On November 10 2021 08:33 highsis wrote: I'm very sad to see how a season final (though not a yearly final) is garnering a couple dozen replies on TL. It used to have hundreds of replies back in the days whenever we had a major event. Did SC2 fandom just vaporize over the years?
There are a few reasons for this I think. One is that all the tournaments these days are online, and this makes it feel like it's the same for all tournaments. ESL is doing what they can to differentiate the Season Finals with the regular season, but in the end it still feels the same-ish as many of the other tournaments.
Also, as mentioned, there's the ping issue, though I don't think it's that big a concern. A bigger concern is the timezone question. That means that in each of these Season Finals, the majority of the players are playing in a timeslot that's completely disadvantageous to them. This has been brought up numerous times, but nothing has been done about it. There are some who said that it's not an issue, but I'm not convinced. Even then, all 6 Season Finals are done in the same timeslot, and it's always the Koreans/NA players who are disadvantaged, never the EU players. Add to the fact that the scheduling of the Season Finals are horrible for the Koreans (right in the middle of their GSL season - imagine scheduling the Season Finals during one of the EU regionals... it's just terrible).
This reduces the credibility of the tournament, and that's why the hype just isn't as big. I find myself not that invested into the Season Finals as much as I do for other tournaments.
At the end of the day, what differentiates this Season Finals in its presentation compared to another online tournament like TSL or King of Battles or NeXT? Aside from the prize pool, the player pool is roughly the same. In fact, some might argue that the player pools for those are of even higher quality than these Season Finals as each player has to qualify for them.
That's why the announcement that IEM Katowice 2022 will be offline is big for me. It's finally an offline event, and there's no more such issues as I mentioned (though people will say jet lag, but that's just nonsense given that the players will be there for so long).
Agree with all this but I also think most SC2 fans (especially TLers) are adults now and have a full-time job, a girlfriend or even a family as of now and can't invest as much time in following the scene anymore
yeah, I've been having a fulltime job for quite a few years now but would still invest some time into TL and SC2, ever since I also ran into my girlfriend, now wife, that has changed even more. i'll catch the odd tournament stream, usually on my phone, in the evening while watching her play Animal Crossing or something, but that's about it.
I think Nate and ZG are underselling the amount of PvP Neeb has played in NA. There were 6/8 Protosses in his group, 6/8 Protosses in the playoff bracket, and his entire qualification run was against Toss players only.
The timing of that Nova taking out the two Archons and the Stasis Trap immediately ending to let the Zealots charge in was a perfect example of how Zest just could not put it all together that game.
The one mistake I think I can find from Neeb in that game was that his skirmishing force of Phoenixes that he sent out after the Mothership was built didn't trade very efficiently. Mostly just ate a dozen or so Interceptors and blew up.
Neebs is playing a shitty PvT comparing to his status. Late tech up, late expansion, rely heavy on Chargelot which drop like fly to Bio Ghost Mines. I think Neebs was losing PvT in DH NA? Didnt watch those series but I can see how Neebs lose like that.
Blarg, stupid work getting in the way of watching live. Really happy for Scarlett pulling the upset, and in first place no less! No surprises in group 2 though. Would anyone recommend any series/games in particular to go back and watch?
On November 11 2021 12:09 Kitai wrote: Blarg, stupid work getting in the way of watching live. Really happy for Scarlett pulling the upset, and in first place no less! No surprises in group 2 though. Would anyone recommend any series/games in particular to go back and watch?
Both Cure vs Trap and Cure vs Scarlett got some good games, espeically the final game of each series. Group B is a bit "meh" to me, most competitive was Zest vs Neeb in the decider match but thats still pretty standard PvP for the most part.
Will be interesting to see if Marinelord played SC2 at all recently, he got to #1 ladder at Age of Empire 4 for a while and now sits at #4. I mean, not sure if it would be noticeable, pros like him have played so much that a couple hours of practise probably are enough to get back in shape. And against Rogue, not sure if Marinelord at his best can win.
On November 11 2021 17:00 HolydaKing wrote: Will be interesting to see if Marinelord played SC2 at all recently, he got to #1 ladder at Age of Empire 4 for a while and now sits at #4. I mean, not sure if it would be noticeable, pros like him have played so much that a couple hours of practise probably are enough to get back in shape. And against Rogue, not sure if Marinelord at his best can win.
MLord did amazing in NationWars2019, when he was only playing WoW, so I expect him to be fine
On November 11 2021 17:00 HolydaKing wrote: Will be interesting to see if Marinelord played SC2 at all recently, he got to #1 ladder at Age of Empire 4 for a while and now sits at #4. I mean, not sure if it would be noticeable, pros like him have played so much that a couple hours of practise probably are enough to get back in shape. And against Rogue, not sure if Marinelord at his best can win.
I've been watching a lot of his AoE4 streams and he said he did not practice for DHM. He's practicing in expectations of microsoft sponsored events on AoE4. He'll probably keep showing up here and there if he can grab a few bucks I believe.
On November 11 2021 17:00 HolydaKing wrote: Will be interesting to see if Marinelord played SC2 at all recently, he got to #1 ladder at Age of Empire 4 for a while and now sits at #4. I mean, not sure if it would be noticeable, pros like him have played so much that a couple hours of practise probably are enough to get back in shape. And against Rogue, not sure if Marinelord at his best can win.
I've been watching a lot of his AoE4 streams and he said he did not practice for DHM. He's practicing in expectations of microsoft sponsored events on AoE4. He'll probably keep showing up here and there if he can grab a few bucks I believe.
*insert joke about french players pre-emptively practicing for other games*
On November 11 2021 17:00 HolydaKing wrote: Will be interesting to see if Marinelord played SC2 at all recently, he got to #1 ladder at Age of Empire 4 for a while and now sits at #4. I mean, not sure if it would be noticeable, pros like him have played so much that a couple hours of practise probably are enough to get back in shape. And against Rogue, not sure if Marinelord at his best can win.
I've been watching a lot of his AoE4 streams and he said he did not practice for DHM. He's practicing in expectations of microsoft sponsored events on AoE4. He'll probably keep showing up here and there if he can grab a few bucks I believe.
*insert joke about french players pre-emptively practicing for other games*
On November 12 2021 00:53 swarminfestor wrote: Mutas with 2+ armor upgrade were much better than 1+1 mutas.
It's mostly that Dark engaged the fight with half his mutas vs all of Rogue's for the first 2-3 seconds, which is enough to turn the fight in Rogue's favour completely.
On November 11 2021 17:00 HolydaKing wrote: Will be interesting to see if Marinelord played SC2 at all recently, he got to #1 ladder at Age of Empire 4 for a while and now sits at #4. I mean, not sure if it would be noticeable, pros like him have played so much that a couple hours of practise probably are enough to get back in shape. And against Rogue, not sure if Marinelord at his best can win.
I've been watching a lot of his AoE4 streams and he said he did not practice for DHM. He's practicing in expectations of microsoft sponsored events on AoE4. He'll probably keep showing up here and there if he can grab a few bucks I believe.
I can understand that since his chances of getting out of the group is close to nil. Let's see how competitive and lucrative AoE scene will be.
Ouch. That's a legitimate complaint though, esp with a game like SC2 and how the majority of the tournament these days are online.
I think the technology just isn't there yet
I'm not sure if you're joking or not... but if AoE can have such low ping, surely they can do that with SC2? Unless it requires a whole rewriting of their netcode etc.
Ouch. That's a legitimate complaint though, esp with a game like SC2 and how the majority of the tournament these days are online.
I think the technology just isn't there yet
I'm not sure if you're joking or not... but if AoE can have such low ping, surely they can do that with SC2? Unless it requires a whole rewriting of their netcode etc.
it's a meme because Dustin Browder (I think) said that as a response to why we don't have LAN in sc2
On November 11 2021 12:09 Kitai wrote: Blarg, stupid work getting in the way of watching live. Really happy for Scarlett pulling the upset, and in first place no less! No surprises in group 2 though. Would anyone recommend any series/games in particular to go back and watch?
Both Cure vs Trap and Cure vs Scarlett got some good games, espeically the final game of each series. Group B is a bit "meh" to me, most competitive was Zest vs Neeb in the decider match but thats still pretty standard PvP for the most part.
I‘m not blaming him whatsoever, but do you think MarineLorD’spractice in AoE IV might not necessarily have helped him doing well here? Especially with the Genesis tournament coming up soon. It‘s insane enough that he qualified for both in the first place though
Complaining about something that has existed for almost 2 years is just a bit of a "crying wolf" to me, if MLord was saying this in the first DH tournament, then he would look better. But I guess playing in AoE tournament with lower ping might have actually messed up his micro when getting back to SC2. But thats also more of "his fault" for not doing the proper "conditioning" for the DH tournament.
On November 12 2021 03:14 tigera6 wrote: Complaining about something that has existed for almost 2 years is just a bit of a "crying wolf" to me, if MLord was saying this in the first DH tournament, then he would look better. But I guess playing in AoE tournament with lower ping might have actually messed up his micro when getting back to SC2. But thats also more of "his fault" for not doing the proper "conditioning" for the DH tournament.
I think it‘s insane that someone manages to qualify for two tournaments in two pretty damn different games at the same time (my initial wording was a bit… weird). And judging from his stream, he seemed to have focused quite a bit on AoE IV. Which is totally fine, in my opinion. He‘s in the top 8 of AoE 4 and in the Top 16 in SC2 - a feat I did not expect someone to achieve.
On November 12 2021 03:14 tigera6 wrote: Complaining about something that has existed for almost 2 years is just a bit of a "crying wolf" to me, if MLord was saying this in the first DH tournament, then he would look better. But I guess playing in AoE tournament with lower ping might have actually messed up his micro when getting back to SC2. But thats also more of "his fault" for not doing the proper "conditioning" for the DH tournament.
I think it‘s insane that someone manages to qualify for two tournaments in two pretty damn different games at the same time (my initial wording was a bit… weird). And judging from his stream, he seemed to have focused quite a bit on AoE IV. Which is totally fine, in my opinion. He‘s in the top 8 of AoE 4 and in the Top 16 in SC2 - a feat I did not expect someone to achieve.
Well... AoE 4 is still young. We'll see how he fares in the long run. So far mostly the old AoE players and some Wc3/Sc2 players seem to be to top tier players, but that could change over some time. Some guy, I think on Hera's stream, also said that Marinelord was a good player in AoE 2(? some older AoE).
On November 12 2021 03:14 tigera6 wrote: Complaining about something that has existed for almost 2 years is just a bit of a "crying wolf" to me, if MLord was saying this in the first DH tournament, then he would look better. But I guess playing in AoE tournament with lower ping might have actually messed up his micro when getting back to SC2. But thats also more of "his fault" for not doing the proper "conditioning" for the DH tournament.
I think it‘s insane that someone manages to qualify for two tournaments in two pretty damn different games at the same time (my initial wording was a bit… weird). And judging from his stream, he seemed to have focused quite a bit on AoE IV. Which is totally fine, in my opinion. He‘s in the top 8 of AoE 4 and in the Top 16 in SC2 - a feat I did not expect someone to achieve.
Well... AoE 4 is still young. We'll see how he fares in the long run. So far mostly the old AoE players and some Wc3/Sc2 players seem to be to top tier players, but that could change over some time. Some guy, I think on Hera's stream, also said that Marinelord was a good player in AoE 2(? some older AoE).
He was a good AoE2 player but the game is far less competitive than sc2
Maru went turtle way too early, he could have done more harrassment onto Serral bases. In the end, Serral outmined Maru by 2 bases, you just cant win no matter how well you trade.
Maru was too stubborn with Widow Mines dropped to a fault here, then the Ghost transition was so late, or even non-existent against Lurker. To be honest, its a bit of a throw imo.
On November 13 2021 01:46 dysenterymd wrote: Is this the first time Maru vs Serral has delivered?
Last year they met in the KoB group stage and it was pretty great as well. Maru went full turtle from the beginning and force Serral to crash into it. In the end Serral figure out how to win it.
On November 13 2021 01:46 dysenterymd wrote: Is this the first time Maru vs Serral has delivered?
Last year they met in the KoB group stage and it was pretty great as well. Maru went full turtle from the beginning and force Serral to crash into it. In the end Serral figure out how to win it.
The bo1 at GSL vs the World 2018 was pretty hype too.
It's kinda sad to see how there are basically only Serral, Reynor and Clem who can go toe to toe with the Koreans while everyone else is just miles behind.
On November 13 2021 03:09 JoeCool wrote: It's kinda sad to see how there are basically only Serral, Reynor and Clem who can go toe to toe with the Koreans while everyone else is just miles behind.
What does that even mean? Scarlett literally advanced first over Trap and Cure.
On November 13 2021 03:09 JoeCool wrote: It's kinda sad to see how there are basically only Serral, Reynor and Clem who can go toe to toe with the Koreans while everyone else is just miles behind.
He says during a pretty tense 17 minutes-so-far game between ShowTime and Maru, in a tournament where Scarlett's just beaten Cure and Trap back to back
Maru was throwing it a bit with those fancy Medivac drop, he could just stay home after taking down the 3rd Nexus and macro up his army for a strong push.
I wonder if it would have been worth it to get Tempests a lot earlier for ShoWTimE. Obv it comes with its own vulnerabilities but seems like Maru got to turtle and buy time with Libs for so long.
Crazy game. Unfortunate that Disruptors regularly did not pay off for themselves. I, of course, blame cross-server lag. Showtime would clearly have won on LAN .
On November 13 2021 03:51 Waxangel wrote: I wonder if it would have been worth it to get Tempests a lot earlier for ShoWTimE. Obv it comes with its own vulnerabilities but seems like Maru got to turtle and buy time with Libs for so long.
I thought the same thing. When he finally got Tempests it was bad for him, but earlier he could have easily made 2-3 and used them to tackle liberators.
On November 13 2021 03:51 Waxangel wrote: I wonder if it would have been worth it to get Tempests a lot earlier for ShoWTimE. Obv it comes with its own vulnerabilities but seems like Maru got to turtle and buy time with Libs for so long.
I thought the same thing. When he finally got Tempests it was bad for him, but earlier he could have easily made 2-3 and used them to tackle liberators.
I think if he went Tempest earlier, I think Maru could have easily transitioned into vikings. He was building 4 libs at the same time. When ShowtimE actually did it, both sides were struggling for resources.
Yeah he built tempests at the perfect timing imo but couldn’t land a good enough nova for his plan to work out, Maru splits were somehow on point even at 4am cross server
Damn I was really hoping Maru would get Clem to see if he can improve his perfect TvT (besides TY) record further. Dark feels like the hardest possible opponent.
Where are the people that said Maru should aim for top 2 to get easier opponents lmao… only good thing is that it’s not a cross server match, but Dark is a tough opponent
On November 13 2021 04:21 JJH777 wrote: Damn I was really hoping Maru would get Clem to see if he can improve his perfect TvT (besides TY) record further. Dark feels like the hardest possible opponent.
Maru is way better than TY at TvT. Always has been and always will be.
On November 13 2021 04:21 JJH777 wrote: Damn I was really hoping Maru would get Clem to see if he can improve his perfect TvT (besides TY) record further. Dark feels like the hardest possible opponent.
Maru is way better than TY at TvT. Always has been and always will be.
I agree completely. That was just referring to the fact that a bo3 vs TY is Maru's only TvT loss this year.
On November 13 2021 04:21 JJH777 wrote: Damn I was really hoping Maru would get Clem to see if he can improve his perfect TvT (besides TY) record further. Dark feels like the hardest possible opponent.
Maru is way better than TY at TvT. Always has been and always will be.
That's evidently not true. It's not true in the h2h, not true if you look at the historical record.
On November 13 2021 03:55 MarianoSC2 wrote: Holy shit what a game. Showtime is really good at Protoss lategame, Maru had to work super hard for that win !
Yeah, he is good. Very good. But he will not be anyway NEAR a success in a bigger tourney. Zest, Trap, (maybe parting?) those guys can go deep sometimes in bigger tourney, but apart from them I dont see any toss making finishing on top in the future (apart from NA, or maybe the occational ST)
On November 13 2021 04:21 JJH777 wrote: Damn I was really hoping Maru would get Clem to see if he can improve his perfect TvT (besides TY) record further. Dark feels like the hardest possible opponent.
Maru is way better than TY at TvT. Always has been and always will be.
That's evidently not true. It's not true in the h2h, not true if you look at the historical record.
Maru is way ahead in aligulac rating in TvT, and since they both play in Korea the ratings should be pretty accurate. It’s not even close. TY is a very good preparation player however, so he can make some upsets happen when given the time.
On November 13 2021 04:21 JJH777 wrote: Damn I was really hoping Maru would get Clem to see if he can improve his perfect TvT (besides TY) record further. Dark feels like the hardest possible opponent.
Maru is way better than TY at TvT. Always has been and always will be.
That's evidently not true. It's not true in the h2h, not true if you look at the historical record.
Maru is way ahead in aligulac rating in TvT, and since they both play in Korea the ratings should be pretty accurate. It’s not even close. TY is a very good preparation player however, so he can make some upsets happen when given the time.
Is this a real answer? TY is not active anymore. Aligulac's rating tells us that Maru is stronger at the moment... Both their career TvT record(iirc TY's TvT win rate is even higher than Mvp's and the best in GSL's history) and their h2h leave no doubt, TY was the stronger mirror player overall.
On November 13 2021 04:21 JJH777 wrote: Damn I was really hoping Maru would get Clem to see if he can improve his perfect TvT (besides TY) record further. Dark feels like the hardest possible opponent.
Maru is way better than TY at TvT. Always has been and always will be.
That's evidently not true. It's not true in the h2h, not true if you look at the historical record.
Maru is way ahead in aligulac rating in TvT, and since they both play in Korea the ratings should be pretty accurate. It’s not even close. TY is a very good preparation player however, so he can make some upsets happen when given the time.
Is this a real answer? TY is not active anymore. Aligulac's rating tells us that Maru is stronger at the moment... Both their career TvT record(iirc TY's TvT win rate is even higher than Mvp's and the best in GSL's history) and their h2h leave no doubt, TY was the stronger mirror player overall.
http://aligulac.com/records/race/?race=T TY highest TvT’s rating is #5 (#4 if we exclude Clem who face mostly foreign terrans). Since he stopped playing relatively recently, the ratings haven’t inflated that much (though Maru was the main terran to benefit from TY departure). With TY being so good at preparation, that explains why he was able to do so well against Maru in tournaments such as GSL. You can ask the terrans that played against both, I am pretty sure they would rather face TY in a weekender than Maru (and since foreign terrans don’t play in preparation style tournaments they do not really care about TY’s boost in such tourneys)
On November 13 2021 04:21 JJH777 wrote: Damn I was really hoping Maru would get Clem to see if he can improve his perfect TvT (besides TY) record further. Dark feels like the hardest possible opponent.
Maru is way better than TY at TvT. Always has been and always will be.
That's evidently not true. It's not true in the h2h, not true if you look at the historical record.
Maru is way ahead in aligulac rating in TvT, and since they both play in Korea the ratings should be pretty accurate. It’s not even close. TY is a very good preparation player however, so he can make some upsets happen when given the time.
Is this a real answer? TY is not active anymore. Aligulac's rating tells us that Maru is stronger at the moment... Both their career TvT record(iirc TY's TvT win rate is even higher than Mvp's and the best in GSL's history) and their h2h leave no doubt, TY was the stronger mirror player overall.
http://aligulac.com/records/race/?race=T TY highest TvT’s rating is #5 (#4 if we exclude Clem who face mostly foreign terrans). Since he stopped playing relatively recently, the ratings haven’t inflated that much (though Maru was the main terran to benefit from TY departure). With TY being so good at preparation, that explains why he was able to do so well against Maru in tournaments such as GSL. You can ask the terrans that played against both, I am pretty sure they would rather face TY in a weekender than Maru (and since foreign terrans don’t play in preparation style tournaments they do not really care about TY’s boost in such tourneys)
Since TY became a top player he has been consistently excellent in TvT, preparation format or not; Maru, on the other hand, was relatively weak in TvT in 2018 for example(it was his worst matchup in his best year). When Maru became godlike in TvT again at the end of 2020, it was TY who beat him the most(three times); their WESG(a non preparation format) final was won by TY. The overall numbers are in favor of TY, your are blinded by your love for Maru here.
On November 13 2021 04:21 JJH777 wrote: Damn I was really hoping Maru would get Clem to see if he can improve his perfect TvT (besides TY) record further. Dark feels like the hardest possible opponent.
Maru is way better than TY at TvT. Always has been and always will be.
That's evidently not true. It's not true in the h2h, not true if you look at the historical record.
Maru is way ahead in aligulac rating in TvT, and since they both play in Korea the ratings should be pretty accurate. It’s not even close. TY is a very good preparation player however, so he can make some upsets happen when given the time.
Is this a real answer? TY is not active anymore. Aligulac's rating tells us that Maru is stronger at the moment... Both their career TvT record(iirc TY's TvT win rate is even higher than Mvp's and the best in GSL's history) and their h2h leave no doubt, TY was the stronger mirror player overall.
http://aligulac.com/records/race/?race=T TY highest TvT’s rating is #5 (#4 if we exclude Clem who face mostly foreign terrans). Since he stopped playing relatively recently, the ratings haven’t inflated that much (though Maru was the main terran to benefit from TY departure). With TY being so good at preparation, that explains why he was able to do so well against Maru in tournaments such as GSL. You can ask the terrans that played against both, I am pretty sure they would rather face TY in a weekender than Maru (and since foreign terrans don’t play in preparation style tournaments they do not really care about TY’s boost in such tourneys)
Since TY became a top player he has been consistently excellent in TvT, preparation format or not; Maru, on the other hand, was relatively weak in TvT in 2018 for example(it was his worst matchup in his best year). When Maru became godlike in TvT again at the end of 2020, it was TY who beat him the most(three times); their WESG(a non preparation format) final was won by TY. The overall numbers are in favor of TY, your are blinded by your love for Maru here.
Well I don’t agree with the initial poster that Maru has always been better at TvT than TY, but he reached a higher peak in the match-up for sure. Basically ever since he got his injury / played more online and somehow started playing more late game in every match-up, he slowly but surely became a TvT master.
On November 13 2021 04:21 JJH777 wrote: Damn I was really hoping Maru would get Clem to see if he can improve his perfect TvT (besides TY) record further. Dark feels like the hardest possible opponent.
Maru is way better than TY at TvT. Always has been and always will be.
That's evidently not true. It's not true in the h2h, not true if you look at the historical record.
Maru is way ahead in aligulac rating in TvT, and since they both play in Korea the ratings should be pretty accurate. It’s not even close. TY is a very good preparation player however, so he can make some upsets happen when given the time.
Is this a real answer? TY is not active anymore. Aligulac's rating tells us that Maru is stronger at the moment... Both their career TvT record(iirc TY's TvT win rate is even higher than Mvp's and the best in GSL's history) and their h2h leave no doubt, TY was the stronger mirror player overall.
http://aligulac.com/records/race/?race=T TY highest TvT’s rating is #5 (#4 if we exclude Clem who face mostly foreign terrans). Since he stopped playing relatively recently, the ratings haven’t inflated that much (though Maru was the main terran to benefit from TY departure). With TY being so good at preparation, that explains why he was able to do so well against Maru in tournaments such as GSL. You can ask the terrans that played against both, I am pretty sure they would rather face TY in a weekender than Maru (and since foreign terrans don’t play in preparation style tournaments they do not really care about TY’s boost in such tourneys)
Since TY became a top player he has been consistently excellent in TvT, preparation format or not; Maru, on the other hand, was relatively weak in TvT in 2018 for example(it was his worst matchup in his best year). When Maru became godlike in TvT again at the end of 2020, it was TY who beat him the most(three times); their WESG(a non preparation format) final was won by TY. The overall numbers are in favor of TY, your are blinded by your love for Maru here.
Well I don’t agree with the initial poster that Maru has always been better at TvT than TY, but he reached a higher peak in the match-up for sure. Basically ever since he got his injury / played more online and somehow started playing more late game in every match-up, he slowly but surely became a TvT master.
Maru's showed his new TvT prowess at King of Battle. Since that period to TY's retirement in June 2021, Mary went 15-5 whereas TY went 19-7 in that matchup. Guess who won both their h2h? TY, 4-2 to triumph at Code S S3 2020 and 2-0 at Katowice.
After that, Mary is 14-0 in TvT; no one can apparently best him in the mirror matchup in a world without TY. Is Maru better than TY as a TvT player considering the entirety of their careers? No, it's not even close. Was he better right before TY's retirement? Hard to say overall, Maru still couldn't beat him.
Well, Maru did beat TY in the GSL 2018 S3, and I think Maru actually improve his lategame army control especially with the Ravens. But in the matchup, TY never really let him get into that lategame stage by reading all of Maru early move like a book and counter it amazingly. Its like TY is the Kryptonyte of Maru in TvT, despite the games were actually close and could have gone one way or the other during that latest GSL Grand Final.
On November 13 2021 04:21 JJH777 wrote: Damn I was really hoping Maru would get Clem to see if he can improve his perfect TvT (besides TY) record further. Dark feels like the hardest possible opponent.
Maru is way better than TY at TvT. Always has been and always will be.
That's evidently not true. It's not true in the h2h, not true if you look at the historical record.
Maru is way ahead in aligulac rating in TvT, and since they both play in Korea the ratings should be pretty accurate. It’s not even close. TY is a very good preparation player however, so he can make some upsets happen when given the time.
Is this a real answer? TY is not active anymore. Aligulac's rating tells us that Maru is stronger at the moment... Both their career TvT record(iirc TY's TvT win rate is even higher than Mvp's and the best in GSL's history) and their h2h leave no doubt, TY was the stronger mirror player overall.
http://aligulac.com/records/race/?race=T TY highest TvT’s rating is #5 (#4 if we exclude Clem who face mostly foreign terrans). Since he stopped playing relatively recently, the ratings haven’t inflated that much (though Maru was the main terran to benefit from TY departure). With TY being so good at preparation, that explains why he was able to do so well against Maru in tournaments such as GSL. You can ask the terrans that played against both, I am pretty sure they would rather face TY in a weekender than Maru (and since foreign terrans don’t play in preparation style tournaments they do not really care about TY’s boost in such tourneys)
Maru, on the other hand, was relatively weak in TvT in 2018 for example(it was his worst matchup in his best year).
You just made this up. Maru has one loss that year to TY, 1-2 in the Katowice group stage. And even then he beat TY in the GSL final which has a lot more weight there. He also lost a weird match when Keen cyclone rushed him in a GSL group, and then he easily beat him in the decider match that counts a lot more.
That's it, that's all two of the notable TvT losses.
It's true he didn't play much TvT in 2018 because terran in general was trash and none of the others except TY made it deep enough to be a challenge. That's not the same as Maru being weak.
I think TY is better than Maru in TvT. But now that TY retired, Maru is the best TvT player in the world. He just knows how to turtle and defend like no other. I can't wait for the lag free games of SC2 to come back. Especially now that the gap between foreigner and Koreans have closed. Though Dark did say he (and possibly other Koreans) got worse which is a reason for the gap closing as well.
On November 13 2021 04:21 JJH777 wrote: Damn I was really hoping Maru would get Clem to see if he can improve his perfect TvT (besides TY) record further. Dark feels like the hardest possible opponent.
Maru is way better than TY at TvT. Always has been and always will be.
That's evidently not true. It's not true in the h2h, not true if you look at the historical record.
Maru is way ahead in aligulac rating in TvT, and since they both play in Korea the ratings should be pretty accurate. It’s not even close. TY is a very good preparation player however, so he can make some upsets happen when given the time.
Is this a real answer? TY is not active anymore. Aligulac's rating tells us that Maru is stronger at the moment... Both their career TvT record(iirc TY's TvT win rate is even higher than Mvp's and the best in GSL's history) and their h2h leave no doubt, TY was the stronger mirror player overall.
http://aligulac.com/records/race/?race=T TY highest TvT’s rating is #5 (#4 if we exclude Clem who face mostly foreign terrans). Since he stopped playing relatively recently, the ratings haven’t inflated that much (though Maru was the main terran to benefit from TY departure). With TY being so good at preparation, that explains why he was able to do so well against Maru in tournaments such as GSL. You can ask the terrans that played against both, I am pretty sure they would rather face TY in a weekender than Maru (and since foreign terrans don’t play in preparation style tournaments they do not really care about TY’s boost in such tourneys)
Maru, on the other hand, was relatively weak in TvT in 2018 for example(it was his worst matchup in his best year).
You just made this up. Maru has one loss that year to TY, 1-2 in the Katowice group stage. And even then he beat TY in the GSL final which has a lot more weight there. He also lost a weird match when Keen cyclone rushed him in a GSL group, and then he easily beat him in the decider match that counts a lot more.
That's it, that's all two of the notable TvT losses.
It's true he didn't play much TvT in 2018 because terran in general was trash and none of the others except TY made it deep enough to be a challenge. That's not the same as Maru being weak.
Relatively is the key, Maru wasn't weak in TvT. I remembered Maru playing more TvT and winning less of those in 2018, even if some of those victories were achieved agaist players of much inferior caliber. I was mixing it up with his unspectacular TvT performance in 2019 which is when he felt vulnerable in the matchup.
it is painfull to hear casters saying things like if showtime is just 1% slower/worse than nice, nice could have won , always trying to unnecesseary hype players that truly dont have the skill to belong there
we need to seriously adress the issue with to few eu slots
why we have players like teebul and nice playing when we have players like reynor heromarine lambo maxpax at home, even special is not better than those
put TW/HK/JP Division and Oceana / Rest of Asia devision and China Devision into 1 Division with 1 spot put Latin America division into combined America Divison for 2 spots
than we have 3 more spots to eu that would be fair how can we justify telling those eu players that they despite the fact that they are better cant play because they live in eu and not in asia it would be more fair skillwise and we get better tournaments and less akward games with casters either lie ore try to make players better than they are
the game should be about skill and players should not be discriminated and punished because they live in the eu
"edit ore 2 more spots for eu and 1 more spot for kor"
On November 13 2021 22:39 tilhorizon wrote: it is painfull to hear casters saying things like if showtime is just 1% slower/worse than nice, nice could have won , always trying to unnecesseary hype players that truly dont have the skill to belong there
we need to seriously adress the issue with to few eu slots
why we have players like teebul and nice playing when we have players like reynor heromarine lambo maxpax at home, even special is not better than those
put TW/HK/JP Division and Oceana / Rest of Asia devision and China Devision into 1 Division with 1 spot put Latin America division into combined America Divison for 2 spots
than we have 3 more spots to eu that would be fair how can we justify telling those eu players that they despite the fact that they are better cant play because they live in eu and not in asia it would be more fair skillwise and we get better tournaments and less akward games with casters either lie ore try to make players better than they are
the game should be about skill and players should not be discriminated and punished because they live in the eu
Yea we used to have tournaments for the best players overall and a few tournaments for 'country/region representation'. Almost all we get now is the latter and it kinda sucks tbh. Bunch of MUCH weaker players from some regions just collecting a few paychecks throughout the year
Well, DH Global at this moment is the only one that have this kind of "diversity program" for all region, just like how WESG used to be. The rest of the global premiere tournament are either invitation by EPT pts and/or qualification. So I dont have too much issue with this to be honest, just means that the group stage are too predictable and the real tournament start in the playoff bracket.
On November 13 2021 14:51 geokilla wrote: I think TY is better than Maru in TvT. But now that TY retired, Maru is the best TvT player in the world. He just knows how to turtle and defend like no other. I can't wait for the lag free games of SC2 to come back. Especially now that the gap between foreigner and Koreans have closed. Though Dark did say he (and possibly other Koreans) got worse which is a reason for the gap closing as well.
That skytoss blob must be annoying as hell. I wonder how useful a single Thor will be just to repel them off. Just have it transported via a medivac to avoid getting blobbed by chargelots.
basically Trap is hoping he can get the Phoenix to mine drag into Clem bio and Chargelot to clean up the rest. Not sure if thats a reliable way to counter Bio attack in early game. Clem basically massing Marines-Mines and win with it.
I don’t understand those upgrades, but his economy was bad. Trap was way ahead but somehow failed multiple mines defense, dunno if because of lag? He sometimes do that in GSL as well so hard to tell
On November 14 2021 00:06 Poopi wrote: I don’t understand those upgrades, but his economy was bad. Trap was way ahead but somehow failed multiple mines defense, dunno if because of lag? He sometimes do that in GSL as well so hard to tell
Yeah Trap just seems to fall apart sometimes to pressure, idk
On November 14 2021 00:06 Poopi wrote: I don’t understand those upgrades, but his economy was bad. Trap was way ahead but somehow failed multiple mines defense, dunno if because of lag? He sometimes do that in GSL as well so hard to tell
He did build a 2nd ebay and an armory so i dont think economy was the reason (he wouldve skipped all of that still have 1/1 atleast)
On November 14 2021 00:06 Poopi wrote: I don’t understand those upgrades, but his economy was bad. Trap was way ahead but somehow failed multiple mines defense, dunno if because of lag? He sometimes do that in GSL as well so hard to tell
He did build a 2nd ebay and an armory so i dont think economy was the reason (he wouldve skipped all of that still have 1/1 atleast)
yeah it seems like he deliberately skipped 2/2 but probably thought he already had 1/1
Nathanias calling Serral obviously superior to Dark in a year where he's only won a season finals while Dark has won a GSL is mildly annoying but I'm used to the incredible foreigner bias by casters.
On November 14 2021 00:51 JJH777 wrote: Nathanias calling Serral obviously superior to Dark in a year where he's only won a season finals while Dark has won a GSL is mildly annoying but I'm used to the incredible foreigner bias by casters.
He's obviously superior since he only plays superior honourable macro games
On November 14 2021 00:51 JJH777 wrote: Nathanias calling Serral obviously superior to Dark in a year where he's only won a season finals while Dark has won a GSL is mildly annoying but I'm used to the incredible foreigner bias by casters.
I think it's reasonable to argue that Serral has been in better form recently, but yeah, Serral's LEGEND status in foreign SC makes for odd comparisons with top Korean players
On November 14 2021 00:51 JJH777 wrote: Nathanias calling Serral obviously superior to Dark in a year where he's only won a season finals while Dark has won a GSL is mildly annoying but I'm used to the incredible foreigner bias by casters.
Why look at what they have won? Serral is the goat, Dark isn't, therefore he's better. At least that's their logic
On November 14 2021 00:51 JJH777 wrote: Nathanias calling Serral obviously superior to Dark in a year where he's only won a season finals while Dark has won a GSL is mildly annoying but I'm used to the incredible foreigner bias by casters.
Why look at what they have won? Serral is the goat, Dark isn't, therefore he's better. At least that's their logic
I dont know what other people think, but to me the goat must have played/won GSLs
On November 13 2021 14:51 geokilla wrote: I think TY is better than Maru in TvT. But now that TY retired, Maru is the best TvT player in the world. He just knows how to turtle and defend like no other. I can't wait for the lag free games of SC2 to come back. Especially now that the gap between foreigner and Koreans have closed. Though Dark did say he (and possibly other Koreans) got worse which is a reason for the gap closing as well.
On November 14 2021 00:51 JJH777 wrote: Nathanias calling Serral obviously superior to Dark in a year where he's only won a season finals while Dark has won a GSL is mildly annoying but I'm used to the incredible foreigner bias by casters.
Why look at what they have won? Serral is the goat, Dark isn't, therefore he's better. At least that's their logic
I dont know what other people think, but to me the goat must have played/won GSLs
On November 13 2021 14:51 geokilla wrote: I think TY is better than Maru in TvT. But now that TY retired, Maru is the best TvT player in the world. He just knows how to turtle and defend like no other. I can't wait for the lag free games of SC2 to come back. Especially now that the gap between foreigner and Koreans have closed. Though Dark did say he (and possibly other Koreans) got worse which is a reason for the gap closing as well.
On November 14 2021 00:51 JJH777 wrote: Nathanias calling Serral obviously superior to Dark in a year where he's only won a season finals while Dark has won a GSL is mildly annoying but I'm used to the incredible foreigner bias by casters.
Why look at what they have won? Serral is the goat, Dark isn't, therefore he's better. At least that's their logic
I dont know what other people think, but to me the goat must have played/won GSLs
If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism.
On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote: If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism.
yeah ultimately it's not a very interesting debate bc the axioms of the two sides are so different. If your axiom is Korea > all GSL > all then you're never going to agree to a foreign GOAT. Or if your axiom is WCS/ESL events >all or even "only head-to-head fights in online cups and weekender tournaments count" then it's a very different conversation. The basic problem is just how you compare scenes that are separated by different tournaments and by lag/time zones, weekenders vs prep tournaments, etc.
"GOAT" status is a lot more about legendary status anyway. Serral will always be a legend in foreign SC as the guy who broke the foreigner barrier & dominated the foreigner scene. But since region lock it's been impossible for one player to dominate EVERYTHING in both scenes. So it becomes a scene vs scene battle.
On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote: If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism.
Except foreigners can and have already competed in the GSL
On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote: If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism.
Right now, there's a WCS goat and Korean goat imo. There's no true goat in 2020 and 2021 due to ping.
On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote: If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism.
Yes, if foreigners never compete consistently in the highest tier then they'll never have a goat.
On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote: If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism.
Except foreigners can and have already competed in the GSL
Just move to Korea. If you only count GSL, that's fine. Captain Peabody summed up the argument really well in my opinion.
On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote: If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism.
Yes, if foreigners never compete consistently in the highest tier then they'll never have a goat.
On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote: If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism.
Yes, if foreigners never compete consistently in the highest tier then they'll never have a goat.
Winning GSL is the only thing that matters, unless we're talking about the performance of Protoss, in which case winning GSL is pretty trivial.
On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote: If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism.
Yes, if foreigners never compete consistently in the highest tier then they'll never have a goat.
World championships are only for foreigners?
their performance at World championships surely don't qualify them as GOAT. Serral has 1, Rogue 3
On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote: If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism.
Yes, if foreigners never compete consistently in the highest tier then they'll never have a goat.
World championships are only for foreigners?
their performance at World championships surely don't qualify them as GOAT. Serral has 1, Rogue 3
This doesn't count, they said. Serral was consistent while Rogue was so inconsistent.
I love that all this complaining came from one of the casters calling Serral superior to Dark because of "bias", then Dark just goes and plays inferior to Serral. Very inconsiderate of him .
On November 14 2021 02:08 Argonauta wrote: I am always amazed by Maru, so on point shutting down those nydus in the main
Yeah, he was very on point in their series in the NeXT qualifier, but he accidentally let one through, and he lost the deciding game. It was on the same map as well. It is clear that Maru was determined not to make the same mistake.
On November 14 2021 02:08 FuRong wrote: I don't want to curse it, but if Serral can get past Rogue then there's really good potential for a Maru/Serral final with both players in top form.
well, assuming that the winner of Zest / Scarlett will lose against the winner of Serral / Rogue (which is reasonable) and that Maru beats Clem (again more than reasonable), we should get a great finals no matter what. But I get it, the fabled Maru / Serral finals with both players cruising a great form is something we've all been waiting for
On November 14 2021 02:08 FuRong wrote: I don't want to curse it, but if Serral can get past Rogue then there's really good potential for a Maru/Serral final with both players in top form.
I would rather have Maru vs Rogue or Clem vs Serral so no cross server bs
Could the mods create a containment thread for the goat-posters? So tiresome to hear the same arguments over and over for the past three years.
Excellent play from Maru - Heromarine analyzed g2 vs Serral and pointed out how structured Maru's gameplan is. Super smooth transitions with a very robust development of CC:s and infrastructure. Hope we get Maru vs Rogue/Serral finals.
On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote: If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism.
Yes, if foreigners never compete consistently in the highest tier then they'll never have a goat.
World championships are only for foreigners?
their performance at World championships surely don't qualify them as GOAT. Serral has 1, Rogue 3
I mean the big difficulty of foreigner vs Korean comparison is that the first 2/3rds to 3/4s of SC2's existence were dominated by Koreans to the point that there really was no question that they were the best (and to the extent that we had world championships that were entirely Korean). There's no question that the top Korean players have been at the top longer than the top foreigners. There's also not really any question that the general foreigner vs Korean skill balance has drastically changed in the last few years.
On November 14 2021 02:12 Seacow wrote: Excellent play from Maru - Heromarine analyzed g2 vs Serral and pointed out how structured Maru's gameplan is. Super smooth transitions with a very robust development of CC:s and infrastructure. Hope we get Maru vs Rogue/Serral finals.
Oh, it'll be great to watch this analysis. Do you have a link/timestamp to that?
On November 14 2021 02:12 Seacow wrote: Excellent play from Maru - Heromarine analyzed g2 vs Serral and pointed out how structured Maru's gameplan is. Super smooth transitions with a very robust development of CC:s and infrastructure. Hope we get Maru vs Rogue/Serral finals.
Oh, it'll be great to watch this analysis. Do you have a link/timestamp to that?
It was from the late stream yesterday, maybe 1h30 min or so into the VOD I believe, should be on his channel
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
No, because you don't determine the GOAT from 3 years of playing competitively in a game that has a (so far) 11-year lifespan
I mean, generally in real-world sports you do determine GOATs more by periods of dominance much more than long-term consistency near the top relative to the lifespan of the game (?). If we take that into account, though, three years is actually quite a long time relative to a mere 11-year lifespan. There's a reason why players like MVP still get brought up in GOAT discussions in SC2.
Sports and ESPORTs both involve too many factors over too much time to be able to easily compare absolute skill. GOAT status is more about being a legend than about having the highest skill imo.
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
And that's without taking into account the balance of his dominance periods. Once another good zerg (Reynor) was good enough to challenge him in a very zerg favored meta, he did not dominate as hard even domestically. When Clem kept growing and TvZ became fairer, he got dominated hard domestically (although he has done well in the online DH Season Finals). Katowice will be a big test, he is among the 6-7 players that could win it
On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote: If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism.
Yes, if foreigners never compete consistently in the highest tier then they'll never have a goat.
World championships are only for foreigners?
their performance at World championships surely don't qualify them as GOAT. Serral has 1, Rogue 3
I mean the big difficulty of foreigner vs Korean comparison is that the first 2/3rds to 3/4s of SC2's existence were dominated by Koreans to the point that there really was no question that they were the best (and to the extent that we had world championships that were entirely Korean). There's no question that the top Korean players have been at the top longer than the top foreigners. There's also not really any question that the general foreigner vs Korean skill balance has drastically changed in the last few years.
Sure but I don't think we should disregard everything that happened before 2018 because of this. From 2018 on Serral may be the most succesful player but looking at their whole careers I don't think he has a claim.
it's not the korean's fault foreigners weren't competitive before. Well technically it is but you know what I mean
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
No, because you don't determine the GOAT from 3 years of playing competitively in a game that has a (so far) 11-year lifespan
I mean, generally in real-world sports you do determine GOATs more by periods of dominance much more than long-term consistency near the top relative to the lifespan of the game (?). If we take that into account, though, three years is actually quite a long time relative to a mere 11-year lifespan. There's a reason why players like MVP still get brought up in GOAT discussions in SC2.
Sports and ESPORTs both involve too many factors over too much time to be able to easily compare absolute skill. GOAT status is more about being a legend than about having the highest skill imo.
Not really, MJ is the GOAT of basketball because he won 6 rings. Tom Brady is the GOAT of football because he has won 7 rings. In the end it still coming down to winning championship, as well as personal performance, but more on the championship side. And Serral dominance did not last 3 years, it was early 2018 till end of 2019 so its around a year and a half. He has been relevant still but not really dominating in 2020 and 2021.
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
No, because you don't determine the GOAT from 3 years of playing competitively in a game that has a (so far) 11-year lifespan
I mean, generally in real-world sports you do determine GOATs more by periods of dominance much more than long-term consistency near the top relative to the lifespan of the game (?). If we take that into account, though, three years is actually quite a long time relative to a mere 11-year lifespan. There's a reason why players like MVP still get brought up in GOAT discussions in SC2.
Sports and ESPORTs both involve too many factors over too much time to be able to easily compare absolute skill. GOAT status is more about being a legend than about having the highest skill imo.
Not really, MJ is the GOAT of basketball because he won 6 rings. Tom Brady is the GOAT of football because he has won 7 rings. In the end it still coming down to winning championship, as well as personal performance, but more on the championship side. And Serral dominance did not last 3 years, it was early 2018 till end of 2019 so its around a year and a half. He has been relevant still but not really dominating in 2020 and 2021.
MJ being the GOAT is far from coming down to the 6 rings though? Bill Russell has 11, Wilt Chamberlain has a lot of records, etc. It's just that MJ's era had a lot more competition than BR/WC, he made basketball popular, he was a scoring machine, his era is still comparable to today's era, etc. Then, and only when you start comparing him to recent GOAT candidates such as Lebron James, the rings come into play, to compare it against players from a similar era.
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You'd better stop hating on Serral and recognize he's one of the greatest players ever. You don't think he's the GOAT? Understandable, I wouldn't say he is. Trying to downsell his countless tournament victories and placements, his unparalleled streaks and win ratio(against koreans, more importantly) and his absolute domination over Sc2 at his peak is frankly ridicolous in 2021.
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote: If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism.
Yes, if foreigners never compete consistently in the highest tier then they'll never have a goat.
World championships are only for foreigners?
their performance at World championships surely don't qualify them as GOAT. Serral has 1, Rogue 3
I mean the big difficulty of foreigner vs Korean comparison is that the first 2/3rds to 3/4s of SC2's existence were dominated by Koreans to the point that there really was no question that they were the best (and to the extent that we had world championships that were entirely Korean). There's no question that the top Korean players have been at the top longer than the top foreigners. There's also not really any question that the general foreigner vs Korean skill balance has drastically changed in the last few years.
Sure but I don't think we should disregard everything that happened before 2018 because of this. From 2018 on Serral may be the most succesful player but looking at their whole careers I don't think he has a claim.
it's not the korean's fault foreigners weren't competitive before. Well technically it is but you know what I mean
Right, it's definitely relevant, but also it seems disingenuous to use foreigners not being that good prior to 2018 as an argument for Koreans still being universally better in 2021.
Idk, I've never been much of a Serral fan (I prefer Reynor among top foreigners and I mostly watch GSL anyway), but there has to be a way to acknowledge the impact that Serral had on the entire course of SC2 by being the first player to absolutely dominate foreigner SC AND almost single-handedly raise the bar for foreign SC as a whole and thus bring about the present era where top foreigners can actually consistently compete with top Koreans without also pretending like he's the most skilled and consistent player in some kind of absolute terms (which I don't think he is).
I found the era where Serral won everything in WCS to be pretty boring actually, but he'll always be a legend for a lot of reasons that are pretty much impossible to replicate and which wouldn't really change if he sucked from now own. I don't mind if you call that GOAT (just as I don't mind if ppl call MVP a GOAT).
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
On November 14 2021 02:42 Waxangel wrote: Classic beat Rogue's fast gold on Altaris by going Tempests, tho Rogue kinda fucked up. Interesting regardless.
I feel like Zest made some very poor decisions here. Canceling the upgrade earlier, then half killing another base before leaving.
On November 14 2021 01:15 HeroSandro wrote: If the criteria for being the best is GSL, then a foreigner can never be th GOAT, as there is alway a korean who has won more of them. Useless conversation, if you only value GSL. Just count who has won most GSL titles. There is foreigner bias, but also korean elitism.
Yes, if foreigners never compete consistently in the highest tier then they'll never have a goat.
World championships are only for foreigners?
their performance at World championships surely don't qualify them as GOAT. Serral has 1, Rogue 3
I mean the big difficulty of foreigner vs Korean comparison is that the first 2/3rds to 3/4s of SC2's existence were dominated by Koreans to the point that there really was no question that they were the best (and to the extent that we had world championships that were entirely Korean). There's no question that the top Korean players have been at the top longer than the top foreigners. There's also not really any question that the general foreigner vs Korean skill balance has drastically changed in the last few years.
Sure but I don't think we should disregard everything that happened before 2018 because of this. From 2018 on Serral may be the most succesful player but looking at their whole careers I don't think he has a claim.
it's not the korean's fault foreigners weren't competitive before. Well technically it is but you know what I mean
Right, it's definitely relevant, but also it seems disingenuous to use foreigners not being that good prior to 2018 as an argument for Koreans still being universally better in 2021.
Idk, I've never been much of a Serral fan (I prefer Reynor among top foreigners and I mostly watch GSL anyway), but there has to be a way to acknowledge the impact that Serral had on the entire course of SC2 by being the first player to absolutely dominate foreigner SC AND almost single-handedly raise the bar for foreign SC as a whole and thus bring about the present era where top foreigners can actually consistently compete with top Koreans without also pretending like he's the most skilled and consistent player in some kind of absolute terms (which I don't think he is).
I found the era where Serral won everything in WCS to be pretty boring actually, but he'll always be a legend for a lot of reasons that are pretty much impossible to replicate and which wouldn't really change if he sucked from now own. I don't mind if you call that GOAT (just as I don't mind if ppl call MVP a GOAT).
Fair, but then you would choose your Goat not by the criteria of "most accomplished player" which is what most people have in mind when using that word but by other subjective criteria. This is then probably where the misunderstanding comes from
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
Oh you are right: gsl vs the world! 2019: wins against ty classic trap and elazer 2018: wins against stats maru innovation and kelazur
I think that are impressive runs. Especially in 2019 every Korean wanted to beat serral badly and ty classic and trap couldn’t do it. One worse opponent in a tournament run doesn’t decrease the achievment.
Now tell me plz in which 8 “world championships” serral competeted and didn’t win? So u c ur lie now? Or u tell me in which 15 open qualifiers he participate and didn’t qualify? U don’t have to answer, cuz its obviously wrong.
On November 14 2021 02:47 tigera6 wrote: The Tempest build was nice, but over-commited those away was pretty bad. He could have sniped the Queen-Ravager one by one with good enough micro.
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
Oh you are right: gsl vs the world! 2019: wins against ty classic trap and elazer —> beside elazer ur statement is obvious wrong. 2018: wins against stats maru innovation and kelazur -> beside kelazur ur statement is abvious wrong.
Now tell me plz in which 8 “world championships” serral competeted and didn’t win? So u c ur lie now? Or u tell me in which 15 open qualifiers he participate and didn’t qualify? U don’t have to answer, cuz its obviously wrong.
Open qualifiers: The katowices and WESGs mentioned above make up the first 7. TSL x 3, ASUS Rog x 2, King of battles, Dreamhack Last Chance, NexT. He has never won an open qualifier event.
On November 14 2021 02:47 tigera6 wrote: The Tempest build was nice, but over-commited those away was pretty bad. He could have sniped the Queen-Ravager one by one with good enough micro.
I thought they did really well on defense
Yes, thats why Zest should have used them on the defense from the beginning, those Tempests were away shooting at Hatchery while Zest 3rd base got burned down.
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
Oh you are right: gsl vs the world! 2019: wins against ty classic trap and elazer —> beside elazer ur statement is obvious wrong. 2018: wins against stats maru innovation and kelazur -> beside kelazur ur statement is abvious wrong.
Now tell me plz in which 8 “world championships” serral competeted and didn’t win? So u c ur lie now? Or u tell me in which 15 open qualifiers he participate and didn’t qualify? U don’t have to answer, cuz its obviously wrong.
Open qualifiers: The katowices and WESGs mentioned above make up the first 7. TSL x 3, ASUS Rog x 2, King of battles, Dreamhack Last Chance, NexT. He has never won an open qualifier event.
Also
"He had 1 very easy opponent in both" Him: "besides that 1 guy you are obviously wrong" Lol
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
Oh you are right: gsl vs the world! 2019: wins against ty classic trap and elazer —> beside elazer ur statement is obvious wrong. 2018: wins against stats maru innovation and kelazur -> beside kelazur ur statement is abvious wrong.
Now tell me plz in which 8 “world championships” serral competeted and didn’t win? So u c ur lie now? Or u tell me in which 15 open qualifiers he participate and didn’t qualify? U don’t have to answer, cuz its obviously wrong.
Open qualifiers: The katowices and WESGs mentioned above make up the first 7. TSL x 3, ASUS Rog x 2, King of battles, Dreamhack Last Chance, NexT. He has never won an open qualifier event.
Limiting by open qualifiers is a random ass designation. Oftentimes you don't even play S-class players AT LEAST until the Ro16, more often the Ro8. I'm not sure this has the impact you mean it to have.
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
Oh you are right: gsl vs the world! 2019: wins against ty classic trap and elazer —> beside elazer ur statement is obvious wrong. 2018: wins against stats maru innovation and kelazur -> beside kelazur ur statement is abvious wrong.
Now tell me plz in which 8 “world championships” serral competeted and didn’t win? So u c ur lie now? Or u tell me in which 15 open qualifiers he participate and didn’t qualify? U don’t have to answer, cuz its obviously wrong.
Open qualifiers: The katowices and WESGs mentioned above make up the first 7. TSL x 3, ASUS Rog x 2, King of battles, Dreamhack Last Chance, NexT. He has never won an open qualifier event.
Hm, just checked some data but that were mostly wrong. Example: Katowice 2017 serral qualified per server qualifier. And if someone auto-qualifier its not the players “fault” and u can’t use that for an argument he didn’t qualifier through the open qualifier. That doesn’t make any sense.
But i must agree that he lost more “world championships” then i remembered. But if u look the stats from the top Koreans i can’t find someone who did better.
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
Oh you are right: gsl vs the world! 2019: wins against ty classic trap and elazer —> beside elazer ur statement is obvious wrong. 2018: wins against stats maru innovation and kelazur -> beside kelazur ur statement is abvious wrong.
Now tell me plz in which 8 “world championships” serral competeted and didn’t win? So u c ur lie now? Or u tell me in which 15 open qualifiers he participate and didn’t qualify? U don’t have to answer, cuz its obviously wrong.
Open qualifiers: The katowices and WESGs mentioned above make up the first 7. TSL x 3, ASUS Rog x 2, King of battles, Dreamhack Last Chance, NexT. He has never won an open qualifier event.
Hm, just checked some data but that were mostly wrong. Example: Katowice 2017 serral qualified per server qualifier. And if someone auto-qualifier its not the players “fault” and u can’t use that for an argument he didn’t qualifier through the open qualifier. That doesn’t make any sense.
But i must agree that he lost more “world championships” then i remembered. But if u look the stats from the top Koreans i can’t find someone who did better.
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
Oh you are right: gsl vs the world! 2019: wins against ty classic trap and elazer —> beside elazer ur statement is obvious wrong. 2018: wins against stats maru innovation and kelazur -> beside kelazur ur statement is abvious wrong.
Now tell me plz in which 8 “world championships” serral competeted and didn’t win? So u c ur lie now? Or u tell me in which 15 open qualifiers he participate and didn’t qualify? U don’t have to answer, cuz its obviously wrong.
Open qualifiers: The katowices and WESGs mentioned above make up the first 7. TSL x 3, ASUS Rog x 2, King of battles, Dreamhack Last Chance, NexT. He has never won an open qualifier event.
Hm, just checked some data but that were mostly wrong. Example: Katowice 2017 serral qualified per server qualifier. And if someone auto-qualifier its not the players “fault” and u can’t use that for an argument he didn’t qualifier through the open qualifier. That doesn’t make any sense.
But i must agree that he lost more “world championships” then i remembered. But if u look the stats from the top Koreans i can’t find someone who did better.
Rogue, sOs
Better then 1/9 won world titles? (Beside counting 3 world titles in some years doesn’t make any sense, but ye, JJH777 wanted to make it looking a bigger think then it is) I don’t think so. Maybe rogue. But i think i did a lot data-research and the data which was given to me were wrong.
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
Oh you are right: gsl vs the world! 2019: wins against ty classic trap and elazer —> beside elazer ur statement is obvious wrong. 2018: wins against stats maru innovation and kelazur -> beside kelazur ur statement is abvious wrong.
Now tell me plz in which 8 “world championships” serral competeted and didn’t win? So u c ur lie now? Or u tell me in which 15 open qualifiers he participate and didn’t qualify? U don’t have to answer, cuz its obviously wrong.
Open qualifiers: The katowices and WESGs mentioned above make up the first 7. TSL x 3, ASUS Rog x 2, King of battles, Dreamhack Last Chance, NexT. He has never won an open qualifier event.
Hm, just checked some data but that were mostly wrong. Example: Katowice 2017 serral qualified per server qualifier. And if someone auto-qualifier its not the players “fault” and u can’t use that for an argument he didn’t qualifier through the open qualifier. That doesn’t make any sense.
But i must agree that he lost more “world championships” then i remembered. But if u look the stats from the top Koreans i can’t find someone who did better.
Not sure what you mean by the top paragraph. I'm just saying he's never won a tournament that doesn't have some arbitrary limits on who can make it into the main event based on region/past performance/vote-ins/or just straight up invites despite playing in 10-15 of them depending on what you count. Those should theoretically be the hardest tournaments to win because open qualifiers guarantee a high level of skill for all participants at the time of the event.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
Oh you are right: gsl vs the world! 2019: wins against ty classic trap and elazer —> beside elazer ur statement is obvious wrong. 2018: wins against stats maru innovation and kelazur -> beside kelazur ur statement is abvious wrong.
Now tell me plz in which 8 “world championships” serral competeted and didn’t win? So u c ur lie now? Or u tell me in which 15 open qualifiers he participate and didn’t qualify? U don’t have to answer, cuz its obviously wrong.
Open qualifiers: The katowices and WESGs mentioned above make up the first 7. TSL x 3, ASUS Rog x 2, King of battles, Dreamhack Last Chance, NexT. He has never won an open qualifier event.
Hm, just checked some data but that were mostly wrong. Example: Katowice 2017 serral qualified per server qualifier. And if someone auto-qualifier its not the players “fault” and u can’t use that for an argument he didn’t qualifier through the open qualifier. That doesn’t make any sense.
But i must agree that he lost more “world championships” then i remembered. But if u look the stats from the top Koreans i can’t find someone who did better.
Rogue, sOs
Better then 1/9 won world titles? (Beside counting 3 world titles in some years doesn’t make any sense, but ye, JJH777 wanted to make it looking a bigger think then it is) I don’t think so. Maybe rogue. But i think i did a lot data-research and the data which was given to me were wrong.
On November 14 2021 01:56 nojok wrote: Imagine if Serral was born in Korea, he'd be the goatest.
If Serral was Korean with the same results no one would call him the GOAT.
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
Oh you are right: gsl vs the world! 2019: wins against ty classic trap and elazer —> beside elazer ur statement is obvious wrong. 2018: wins against stats maru innovation and kelazur -> beside kelazur ur statement is abvious wrong.
Now tell me plz in which 8 “world championships” serral competeted and didn’t win? So u c ur lie now? Or u tell me in which 15 open qualifiers he participate and didn’t qualify? U don’t have to answer, cuz its obviously wrong.
Open qualifiers: The katowices and WESGs mentioned above make up the first 7. TSL x 3, ASUS Rog x 2, King of battles, Dreamhack Last Chance, NexT. He has never won an open qualifier event.
Hm, just checked some data but that were mostly wrong. Example: Katowice 2017 serral qualified per server qualifier. And if someone auto-qualifier its not the players “fault” and u can’t use that for an argument he didn’t qualifier through the open qualifier. That doesn’t make any sense.
But i must agree that he lost more “world championships” then i remembered. But if u look the stats from the top Koreans i can’t find someone who did better.
Not sure what you mean by the top paragraph. I'm just saying he's never won a tournament that doesn't have some arbitrary limits on who can make it into the main event based on region/past performance/vote-ins/or just straight up invites despite playing in 10-15 of them depending on what you count. Those should theoretically be the hardest tournaments to win because open qualifiers guarantee a high level of skill for all participants at the time of the event.
Then i misunderstood ur post. I agree that these qualifiers add up to the achievements but aren’t the deciding factor for the overall achievement of winning the tournament. But a good example is tsl 7 then, i guess: Serral did qualify through the open qualifier and trap got an auto-slot. If trap wins this tournament i think it doesn’t take anything away from his achievement beside not qualifying through the open qualifier.
On November 14 2021 02:14 DarkGamer wrote: [quote]
I would:
Vs maru 6-2 Vs ty 5-2 Vs cure 7-2 Vs Innovation 16-8 Vs rogue 5-4 Vs dark 4-4 Vs Solar 7-3 Vs Trap 12-3 Vs Zest 10-3
No one i looked up has a winning record against him. I think thats a strong argument.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
Oh you are right: gsl vs the world! 2019: wins against ty classic trap and elazer —> beside elazer ur statement is obvious wrong. 2018: wins against stats maru innovation and kelazur -> beside kelazur ur statement is abvious wrong.
Now tell me plz in which 8 “world championships” serral competeted and didn’t win? So u c ur lie now? Or u tell me in which 15 open qualifiers he participate and didn’t qualify? U don’t have to answer, cuz its obviously wrong.
Open qualifiers: The katowices and WESGs mentioned above make up the first 7. TSL x 3, ASUS Rog x 2, King of battles, Dreamhack Last Chance, NexT. He has never won an open qualifier event.
Hm, just checked some data but that were mostly wrong. Example: Katowice 2017 serral qualified per server qualifier. And if someone auto-qualifier its not the players “fault” and u can’t use that for an argument he didn’t qualifier through the open qualifier. That doesn’t make any sense.
But i must agree that he lost more “world championships” then i remembered. But if u look the stats from the top Koreans i can’t find someone who did better.
Rogue, sOs
Better then 1/9 won world titles? (Beside counting 3 world titles in some years doesn’t make any sense, but ye, JJH777 wanted to make it looking a bigger think then it is) I don’t think so. Maybe rogue. But i think i did a lot data-research and the data which was given to me were wrong.
3/10 for Rogue, 3/8 for sOs
Rogue and sos tried much more years to win a “worlds championship” then 10 and 8 (by the definition of JJH777 a lot!!). U can’t just count the ones u like :D
On November 14 2021 03:14 Fanatic-Templar wrote: I look forward to Serral actually getting to play so that TL live report thread finally syncs up to the stream.
Serral vs Rogue is the perfect setup for a civilized discussion.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
Oh you are right: gsl vs the world! 2019: wins against ty classic trap and elazer —> beside elazer ur statement is obvious wrong. 2018: wins against stats maru innovation and kelazur -> beside kelazur ur statement is abvious wrong.
Now tell me plz in which 8 “world championships” serral competeted and didn’t win? So u c ur lie now? Or u tell me in which 15 open qualifiers he participate and didn’t qualify? U don’t have to answer, cuz its obviously wrong.
Open qualifiers: The katowices and WESGs mentioned above make up the first 7. TSL x 3, ASUS Rog x 2, King of battles, Dreamhack Last Chance, NexT. He has never won an open qualifier event.
Hm, just checked some data but that were mostly wrong. Example: Katowice 2017 serral qualified per server qualifier. And if someone auto-qualifier its not the players “fault” and u can’t use that for an argument he didn’t qualifier through the open qualifier. That doesn’t make any sense.
But i must agree that he lost more “world championships” then i remembered. But if u look the stats from the top Koreans i can’t find someone who did better.
Rogue, sOs
Better then 1/9 won world titles? (Beside counting 3 world titles in some years doesn’t make any sense, but ye, JJH777 wanted to make it looking a bigger think then it is) I don’t think so. Maybe rogue. But i think i did a lot data-research and the data which was given to me were wrong.
3/10 for Rogue, 3/8 for sOs
Rogue and sos tried much more years to win a “worlds championship” then 10 and 8 (by the definition of JJH777 a lot!!). U can’t just count the ones u like :D
If you don't like them being called world championships just call them events that pay more than 100k to first place. Either way they are the most important events to the players.
This is also a dream bracket for Scarlett. Because I don't think she would ever beat Clem or Maru, but I think she could 100% bring it to a game 5 versus either Rogue or Serral.
On November 14 2021 03:30 Pandain wrote: This is also a dream bracket for Scarlett. Because I don't think she would ever beat Clem or Maru, but I think she could 100% bring it to a game 5 versus either Rogue or Serral.
Yeah she really got the nuts bracket, cure is in a post gsl down, trap and zest are pretty inconsistent and that too.
And yet he's only managed to win 1 world championship in 9 attempts. Almost like a lot of those wins have huge asterisks and the losses are in important big money events. He's also something like 0-15 in open qualifier events. He's only won stuff that artificially limits the amount of Korean participation. Tell me when he wins a tournament by beating only top 10 KR players back to back to back like every top KR player has done. In every important bracket he's played besides Blizzcon 2018 he's had at least one or two extremely easy opponents.
You should look up your numbers before stating lies
To your question: for example gsl st!
What lie? Serral has never played in a ST. Assuming you mean GSL vs the World those are not open qualifier and he had 1 very easy opponent in both.
Oh you are right: gsl vs the world! 2019: wins against ty classic trap and elazer —> beside elazer ur statement is obvious wrong. 2018: wins against stats maru innovation and kelazur -> beside kelazur ur statement is abvious wrong.
Now tell me plz in which 8 “world championships” serral competeted and didn’t win? So u c ur lie now? Or u tell me in which 15 open qualifiers he participate and didn’t qualify? U don’t have to answer, cuz its obviously wrong.
Open qualifiers: The katowices and WESGs mentioned above make up the first 7. TSL x 3, ASUS Rog x 2, King of battles, Dreamhack Last Chance, NexT. He has never won an open qualifier event.
Hm, just checked some data but that were mostly wrong. Example: Katowice 2017 serral qualified per server qualifier. And if someone auto-qualifier its not the players “fault” and u can’t use that for an argument he didn’t qualifier through the open qualifier. That doesn’t make any sense.
But i must agree that he lost more “world championships” then i remembered. But if u look the stats from the top Koreans i can’t find someone who did better.
Rogue, sOs
Better then 1/9 won world titles? (Beside counting 3 world titles in some years doesn’t make any sense, but ye, JJH777 wanted to make it looking a bigger think then it is) I don’t think so. Maybe rogue. But i think i did a lot data-research and the data which was given to me were wrong.
3/10 for Rogue, 3/8 for sOs
Rogue and sos tried much more years to win a “worlds championship” then 10 and 8 (by the definition of JJH777 a lot!!). U can’t just count the ones u like :D
This are the ones they qualified for. If you also count ones they didn't qualify for we should also count the ones from 2013 on for Serral (I think that was when he started playing in tournaments)
even counting every one that happened past sOs' debut it would be 3/19 which is a better ratio than 1/9
On November 14 2021 03:30 Pandain wrote: This is also a dream bracket for Scarlett. Because I don't think she would ever beat Clem or Maru, but I think she could 100% bring it to a game 5 versus either Rogue or Serral.
On November 14 2021 03:30 Pandain wrote: This is also a dream bracket for Scarlett. Because I don't think she would ever beat Clem or Maru, but I think she could 100% bring it to a game 5 versus either Rogue or Serral.
Yeah she really got the nuts bracket, cure is in a post gsl down, trap and zest are pretty inconsistent and that too.
On November 14 2021 03:30 Pandain wrote: This is also a dream bracket for Scarlett. Because I don't think she would ever beat Clem or Maru, but I think she could 100% bring it to a game 5 versus either Rogue or Serral.
Yeah she really got the nuts bracket, cure is in a post gsl down, trap and zest are pretty inconsistent and that too.
On November 14 2021 03:30 Pandain wrote: This is also a dream bracket for Scarlett. Because I don't think she would ever beat Clem or Maru, but I think she could 100% bring it to a game 5 versus either Rogue or Serral.
Yeah she really got the nuts bracket, cure is in a post gsl down, trap and zest are pretty inconsistent and that too.
On November 14 2021 03:42 Charoisaur wrote: no idea why Zest didn't static d his base up when he saw the queens marching
I dont think he saw the Queens coming until they start breaking down the destructible wall on Zest side. But after knowing the 4th was lost, he didnt even defend the 3rd with more defense is just as bad.
If Rogue beats Serral, Scarlett can actually beat all four of the GSL Top 4 back to back, which ought to be considered one of the great international tournament runs in SC2 history.
On November 14 2021 03:46 Circumstance wrote: If Rogue beats Serral, Scarlett can actually beat all four of the GSL Top 4 back to back, which ought to be considered one of the great international tournament runs in SC2 history.
Hide your children in that case the Scarlett fanbois (and girls) are coming then
Scarlett winning would be an amazing story but it's hard to imagine her beating either of the Terrans on the other side of the bracket. Still a great run that could get even better (semis will be hard but possible for her)
On November 14 2021 03:46 Circumstance wrote: If Rogue beats Serral, Scarlett can actually beat all four of the GSL Top 4 back to back, which ought to be considered one of the great international tournament runs in SC2 history.
On November 14 2021 03:46 Circumstance wrote: If Rogue beats Serral, Scarlett can actually beat all four of the GSL Top 4 back to back, which ought to be considered one of the great international tournament runs in SC2 history.
And then if Scarlett beats Maru?
Greatest underdog champion story in LoTV era, maybe other than Soo winning IEM 2019.
On November 14 2021 03:46 Circumstance wrote: If Rogue beats Serral, Scarlett can actually beat all four of the GSL Top 4 back to back, which ought to be considered one of the great international tournament runs in SC2 history.
I feel like it's actually rare that a roach-hydra-infestor push ends the game in that classic muta vs. non-muta setup. Normally it ends up with lurkers.
If Serral loses there is a decent chance that Maru just wins the tournament. I don’t think Rogue can do his magic vs him in such a tournament compared to GSL, and Clem is not the favorite vs Maru (although he can win in the early / mid) Otoh Serral is favored if he manages to come back, especially cross server
On November 14 2021 04:44 StasisField wrote: Serral has been taking way too much damage vs drops this tournament. It feels like every drop gets double digit drone kills
Yeah, Overlord drops was such cooler move. On the other side, Rogue's drones also got killed by the similar margin.
On November 14 2021 04:44 StasisField wrote: Serral has been taking way too much damage vs drops this tournament. It feels like every drop gets double digit drone kills
Yeah, Overlord drops were such cooler move. On the other side, Rogue's drones also got killed by the similar margin.
but immediately after serral kill those rogue army was killing 9 more drones and denying the 4th
On November 14 2021 04:46 Poopi wrote: If Serral loses there is a decent chance that Maru just wins the tournament. I don’t think Rogue can do his magic vs him in such a tournament compared to GSL, and Clem is not the favorite vs Maru (although he can win in the early / mid) Otoh Serral is favored if he manages to come back, especially cross server
Is this the first time we might get Korean vs Korean in the final of DH Masters?
can we get nathanias off the air. guy loves to hear himself talk too much and he doesn't even try to hide his serral bias. it's just ridiculous at this point.
On November 14 2021 04:53 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Well, I think we all learned an important lesson today.
Are you NOT entertained?
Rogue really is the anti-Zest. Not fun to watch yet keeps winning .
I think my bitter, endlessly-reinforced hatred of Rogue for beating all of my favorite players in the most painful and torturous and un-entertaining ways possible has finally come all the way around to some kind of love.
On November 14 2021 04:53 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Well, I think we all learned an important lesson today.
Are you NOT entertained?
Rogue really is the anti-Zest. Not fun to watch yet keeps winning .
I think my bitter, endlessly-reinforced hatred of Rogue for beating all of my favorite players in the most painful and torturous and un-entertaining ways possible has finally come all the way around to some kind of love.
I think that's the case for most Rogue fans. That's exactly why they love him
On November 14 2021 04:53 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Well, I think we all learned an important lesson today.
Are you NOT entertained?
Rogue really is the anti-Zest. Not fun to watch yet keeps winning .
I think my bitter, endlessly-reinforced hatred of Rogue for beating all of my favorite players in the most painful and torturous and un-entertaining ways possible has finally come all the way around to some kind of love.
I think that's the case for most Rogue fans. That's exactly why they love him
As a loyal Protoss, I could never call myself a "Rogue fan." But I'm starting to feel some satisfaction seeing him beat top Zergs and Terrans in the same style.
On November 14 2021 05:02 TheLordofAwesome wrote: How did Serral misread that last game lol. He knew literally everything and didn't put the pieces together.
On November 14 2021 05:01 StasisField wrote: Rogue sucks all the fun out of any tournament. I've said it once and I'll say it again: if Rogue was Protoss he'd be the most hated player in SC2
I enjoy him winning and destroying fan favorites though, and people use to love sOs, which is also a hype killer.
On November 14 2021 05:01 StasisField wrote: Rogue sucks all the fun out of any tournament. I've said it once and I'll say it again: if Rogue was Protoss he'd be the most hated player in SC2
hmm sOs in HotS was basically todays Rogue and he wasn't hated
On November 14 2021 05:08 Poopi wrote: Well he might beat Scarlett easily but Clem is still a difficult opponent for Maru
Last 4 times they met, it was 4-0 match score and 10-0 map score, but Clem got a shot like any other Terran vs Maru, doing some crazy opening and hope to beat Maru up before it reaches late game.
On November 14 2021 05:08 Poopi wrote: Well he might beat Scarlett easily but Clem is still a difficult opponent for Maru
Last 4 times they met, it was 4-0 match score and 10-0 map score, but Clem got a shot like any other Terran vs Maru, doing some crazy opening and hope to beat Maru up before it reaches late game.
Clem usually has a good aggresive start against Maru, ends up couple workers above him and then he dies.
On November 14 2021 06:45 koalabro wrote: I'm shocked to see that Rogue pulled a massive upset on Serral. Congrats to Rogue for pulling off an achievement of a career.
On November 14 2021 06:45 koalabro wrote: I'm shocked to see that Rogue pulled a massive upset on Serral. Congrats to Rogue for pulling off an achievement of a career.
Not to whine but it's been 4 freaking years. As a matter of fact, Korean protoss has never won a tier 1 tournament since 2017 in 15 losing streak, with couple wins from ST which I'm not sure classifies as tier 1. With Zest retiring soon and Trap aging I think protoss will never win a tier 1 tournament until the day SC2 dies. I'm so tired of watching them lose in tier 1 tournaments, and knowing there won't be further balance updates I should just forget about it. Don't you protoss fans get tried of this? Time to move onto a different RTS as a protoss fan myself, personally. I think the balance overall is great but at the top level of tier 1 I haven't seen protoss winning anything at all.
On November 14 2021 08:33 allmotor1 wrote: I thought there wouldnt be another patch as well, but apparently blizzard will patch the game again.
source ? Would be an interesting turn of events because in this state of the game P is indeed that race that populates 60% of GM but can't win a top tourney, which is... problematic.
On November 14 2021 08:12 highsis wrote: Not to whine but it's been 4 freaking years. As a matter of fact, Korean protoss has never won a tier 1 tournament since 2017 in 15 losing streak, with couple wins from ST which I'm not sure classifies as tier 1. With Zest retiring soon and Trap aging I think protoss will never win a tier 1 tournament until the day SC2 dies. I'm so tired of watching them lose in tier 1 tournaments, and knowing there won't be further balance updates I should just forget about it. Don't you protoss fans get tried of this? Time to move onto a different RTS as a protoss fan myself, personally. I think the balance overall is great but at the top level of tier 1 I haven't seen protoss winning anything at all.
This idea that protoss never tournaments needs to stop. Its just a technicality based on ESL designating it as a tier 2 tournament. Look a the playerpool. Its literally the exact same as GSL only in a weekend tournament format.
On November 14 2021 19:48 royalroadweed wrote: This idea that protoss never tournaments needs to stop. Its just a technicality based on ESL designating it as a tier 2 tournament. Look a the playerpool. Its literally the exact same as GSL only in a weekend tournament format.
On November 14 2021 19:48 royalroadweed wrote: This idea that protoss never tournaments needs to stop. Its just a technicality based on ESL designating it as a tier 2 tournament. Look a the playerpool. Its literally the exact same as GSL only in a weekend tournament format.
Lineup != prestige
so Protoss can win tier 2 tournaments only because Terrans and Zergs don't try as hard in those tournaments?
Current Maru may not have a speed faster than Clem, but he was much experienced and strategized than Clem made me winning two games in row without breaking a sweat.
On November 14 2021 23:22 swarminfestor wrote: Current Maru may not have a speed faster than Clem, but he was much experienced and strategized than Clem made me winning two games in row without breaking a sweat.
Years of playing against top Terran does give him that experience... imagine the practice with Innovation, TY, Cure etc.
On November 14 2021 23:22 swarminfestor wrote: Current Maru may not have a speed faster than Clem, but he was much experienced and strategized than Clem made me winning two games in row without breaking a sweat.
Maru is not less speedy than anyone, he chooses the turtle style to adapt with cross server play.
On November 14 2021 23:25 Poopi wrote: Wtf I finished a Mario party game and thought with talk craft I wouldn’t miss much but it’s 2-0 already, what did Maru do?
Completely destroyed Clem in his early game... just no chance for Clem...
On November 14 2021 23:22 swarminfestor wrote: Current Maru may not have a speed faster than Clem, but he was much experienced and strategized than Clem made me winning two games in row without breaking a sweat.
Years of playing against top Terran does give him that experience... imagine the practice with Innovation, TY, Cure etc.
Yeah, Clem was just like Maru in younger days in term of mechanical skills.
On November 14 2021 23:25 Poopi wrote: Wtf I finished a Mario party game and thought with talk craft I wouldn’t miss much but it’s 2-0 already, what did Maru do?
Completely destroyed Clem in his early game... just no chance for Clem...
I would not be surprised but post injury Maru did not try such things, that’s a nice way to see him win again :D
On November 14 2021 23:25 Poopi wrote: Wtf I finished a Mario party game and thought with talk craft I wouldn’t miss much but it’s 2-0 already, what did Maru do?
Completely destroyed Clem in his early game... just no chance for Clem...
I would not be surprised but post injury Maru did not try such things, that’s a nice way to see him win again :D
I'm sure you can watch the VOD and finish it before the start of the next series. It was short and brutal.
On November 14 2021 19:48 royalroadweed wrote: This idea that protoss never tournaments needs to stop.
It'll stop when Protoss wins tournaments.
they do, just not tier 1 ones
And we care about those as much as we always have.
because they don't fit your narrative? A lot of them had the same player pool as tier 1 ones
Quite the opposite. The only reason you're pretending to care now is because you need it to build to your conclusion. Nobody's cared about low prestige tournaments in eleven years, and nobody still cares today except when needed to pretend Protoss is doing fine.
See how many time these tier 2 tournaments were brought up in the GOAT arguments earlier in this thread to see for yourself.
Maru too godlike wtf, I did not expect such a brutal series. The GOAT is doing GOAT things again? Clem beating Trap 3-2 was the best thing to happen to Maru this tournament Edit: I doubt Maru has good terrans to practice with either now that INno and TY are gone. ByuN is worse than HM in TvT and Cure is not necessarily better practice
On November 14 2021 23:34 Poopi wrote: Maru too godlike wtf, I did not expect such a brutal series. The GOAT is doing GOAT things again? Clem beating Trap 3-2 was the best thing to happen to Maru this tournament
yeah Clem clean house for him, maybe Scarlett does the same?
Clem gave up during the first fight at the 3rd even though it was still playable and he didn't even die there.
Reminded me of Katowice when Maru beat Heromarine in a macro game from 40 workers down and Gabe just tapped out as soon as he fell one base down in game 3.
On November 14 2021 19:48 royalroadweed wrote: This idea that protoss never tournaments needs to stop.
It'll stop when Protoss wins tournaments.
they do, just not tier 1 ones
And we care about those as much as we always have.
because they don't fit your narrative? A lot of them had the same player pool as tier 1 ones
Quite the opposite. The only reason you're pretending to care now is because you need it to build to your conclusion. Nobody's cared about low prestige tournaments in eleven years, and nobody still cares today except when needed to pretend Protoss is doing fine.
See how many time these tier 2 tournaments were brought up in the GOAT arguments earlier in this thread to see for yourself.
I have no motive to pretend Protoss is fine when it isn't, actually I'm a fan of a lot of their players. I just think it's kinda weird to complain that they don't win a specific kind of tournament. Unless you claim that Zergs and Terrans take it easy in tier 2 tournaments, the conclusion should be that it's just a weird coincidence they don't win tier 1 ones. They actually reached the finals of tier 1 tournaments often so according to you the Protoss imbalance only activates once a Protoss reaches the final of a tier 1 tournament?
No statistic except the winrate of them at tier 1 tournament finals supports the claim that they're underpowered.
The foreigner land hype got shut down hard by Rogue and Maru lmao, since it’s so late for them they adapted and decided to crush their opponents in the fastest way possible
On November 14 2021 19:48 royalroadweed wrote: This idea that protoss never tournaments needs to stop.
It'll stop when Protoss wins tournaments.
they do, just not tier 1 ones
And we care about those as much as we always have.
because they don't fit your narrative? A lot of them had the same player pool as tier 1 ones
Quite the opposite. The only reason you're pretending to care now is because you need it to build to your conclusion. Nobody's cared about low prestige tournaments in eleven years, and nobody still cares today except when needed to pretend Protoss is doing fine.
See how many time these tier 2 tournaments were brought up in the GOAT arguments earlier in this thread to see for yourself.
I have no motive to pretend Protoss is fine when it isn't, actually I'm a fan of a lot of their players. I just think it's kinda weird to complain that they don't win a specific kind of tournament. Unless you claim that Zergs and Terrans take it easy in tier 2 tournaments, the conclusion should be that it's just a weird coincidence they don't win tier 1 ones. They actually reached the finals of tier 1 tournaments often so according to you the Protoss imbalance only activates once a Protoss reaches the final of a tier 1 tournament?
No statistic except the winrate of them at tier 1 tournament finals supports the claim that they're underpowered.
I'm not gonna double-check that, because even if the only statistic that supports the claim that Protoss is underpowered is that they don't win any important tournaments, that is completely sufficient since that is the entire point of competitive StarCraft. I don't care at all how well they perform in irrelevant statistics.
On November 14 2021 23:38 jamesjapp wrote: Maru is 14-1 on maps vs Clem in the last 12 months, that is insane.
The best terran having a 90%+ winrate against the next best terran is certainly something
the most dominant a player has ever been in a matchup?
Only possible comparison is Innovations 27-3 TvZ streak in 2013. There Innovation literally almost never lost maps
no macro TvZ loss in half a year if I remember correctly. Only some losses to Roach Bane allins.
thats NBA-like cherry picking stats.
"most dunks in the season games 24-39 when the sun was shining and playing at home"
I think if you want to talk dominance and winrates, there is no picking "macro games" etc. No offence obviously but a loss is a loss. You can make any player look dominant if you pick the stats your way ^^
On November 14 2021 19:48 royalroadweed wrote: This idea that protoss never tournaments needs to stop.
It'll stop when Protoss wins tournaments.
they do, just not tier 1 ones
And we care about those as much as we always have.
because they don't fit your narrative? A lot of them had the same player pool as tier 1 ones
Quite the opposite. The only reason you're pretending to care now is because you need it to build to your conclusion. Nobody's cared about low prestige tournaments in eleven years, and nobody still cares today except when needed to pretend Protoss is doing fine.
See how many time these tier 2 tournaments were brought up in the GOAT arguments earlier in this thread to see for yourself.
I have no motive to pretend Protoss is fine when it isn't, actually I'm a fan of a lot of their players. I just think it's kinda weird to complain that they don't win a specific kind of tournament. Unless you claim that Zergs and Terrans take it easy in tier 2 tournaments, the conclusion should be that it's just a weird coincidence they don't win tier 1 ones. They actually reached the finals of tier 1 tournaments often so according to you the Protoss imbalance only activates once a Protoss reaches the final of a tier 1 tournament?
No statistic except the winrate of them at tier 1 tournament finals supports the claim that they're underpowered.
I'm not gonna double-check that, because even if the only statistic that supports the claim that Protoss is underpowered is that they don't win any important tournaments, that is completely sufficient since that is the entire point of competitive StarCraft. I don't care at all how well they perform in irrelevant statistics.
yeah then agree to disagree. I don't think it's a balance problem if they are doing fine in everything except that.
On November 14 2021 23:38 jamesjapp wrote: Maru is 14-1 on maps vs Clem in the last 12 months, that is insane.
The best terran having a 90%+ winrate against the next best terran is certainly something
the most dominant a player has ever been in a matchup?
Only possible comparison is Innovations 27-3 TvZ streak in 2013. There Innovation literally almost never lost maps
no macro TvZ loss in half a year if I remember correctly. Only some losses to Roach Bane allins.
thats NBA-like cherry picking stats.
"most dunks in the season games 24-39 when the sun was shining and playing at home"
I think if you want to talk dominance and winrates, there is no picking "macro games" etc. No offence obviously but a loss is a loss. You can make any player look dominant if you pick the stats your way ^^
True, but I think it's worth noting because it added to his aura of invincibility. Of course that's not a reason to say his TvZ was better than the XvX of a player that had a better winrate. But he still had an impressive winrate anyway
On November 14 2021 23:38 jamesjapp wrote: Maru is 14-1 on maps vs Clem in the last 12 months, that is insane.
The best terran having a 90%+ winrate against the next best terran is certainly something
the most dominant a player has ever been in a matchup?
Only possible comparison is Innovations 27-3 TvZ streak in 2013. There Innovation literally almost never lost maps
no macro TvZ loss in half a year if I remember correctly. Only some losses to Roach Bane allins.
thats NBA-like cherry picking stats.
"most dunks in the season games 24-39 when the sun was shining and playing at home"
I think if you want to talk dominance and winrates, there is no picking "macro games" etc. No offence obviously but a loss is a loss. You can make any player look dominant if you pick the stats your way ^^
Wow, don't diss my 100% win rate on Black temple when spawning on the bottom left of the map against protoss when playing in the morning.
On November 14 2021 23:38 jamesjapp wrote: Maru is 14-1 on maps vs Clem in the last 12 months, that is insane.
The best terran having a 90%+ winrate against the next best terran is certainly something
the most dominant a player has ever been in a matchup?
Only possible comparison is Innovations 27-3 TvZ streak in 2013. There Innovation literally almost never lost maps
I think PartinG's 2015 PvT was also up there
IIRC Stats had like 20 PvP wins in a row some years back and Trap had 95% PvT win rate.
TY went 30-1 in Bo3+ TvT matches from LotV release until tankivacs were removed.
With some digging you can find some really good match-up streaks.
Being absurdly dominant in a mirror matchup also demonstrates the difference between them and their peers. Most of the best runs of dominance in a matchup line up with at least favourable balance (i.e. Parting PvT or Inno's TvZ).
On November 14 2021 23:38 Fango wrote: Clem gave up during the first fight at the 3rd even though it was still playable and he didn't even die there.
Reminded me of Katowice when Maru beat Heromarine in a macro game from 40 workers down and Gabe just tapped out as soon as he fell one base down in game 3.
If you watch Maru's late game TvT, including games that he was so far behind in the early, you will think they're were right giving that up early.
On November 14 2021 23:49 Pandain wrote: Who believes in Scarlet??!
She beat a lot of good players already so she can beat Rogue for sure. I doubt she can do anything versus Maru though, so I hope to see Rogue win for the better finals (supposedly)
This game was similar to the other game against Serral yesterday, Rogue spent his army to deal massive damage onto Scarlett economy, but her army never got dealt with. In the end, Scarlett was up by 20 supply and Rogue couldnt make unit quickly enough.
On November 14 2021 23:38 jamesjapp wrote: Maru is 14-1 on maps vs Clem in the last 12 months, that is insane.
The best terran having a 90%+ winrate against the next best terran is certainly something
the most dominant a player has ever been in a matchup?
Only possible comparison is Innovations 27-3 TvZ streak in 2013. There Innovation literally almost never lost maps
no macro TvZ loss in half a year if I remember correctly. Only some losses to Roach Bane allins.
I remember he looked pretty invincible and they were so many good zergs at the time... That said, while he didn't always use them in tvz hellbats were god damn op before their nerf. But still, his serie against Curious during the iem new york korean qualifier is one of the best tvz I've seen. Like Stephano/MMA during ipl 3 na qualifier. Scarlett/Bomber, Life/ dream or Serral/Byun, the sort of games which makes zvt/tvz the best mu.
On November 15 2021 00:28 DBooN wrote: Why is rogue gambling so hard against scarlett? Is he afraid to go into a long game against her?
That's just how he plays ZvZ
This is just how Koreans play ZvZ. It's partly why Scarlett matches up so well - this is exactly her kind of favorite game. And also why Serral will tend to do bad vs Korean zergs.
On November 15 2021 00:43 Poopi wrote: Superb run from Scarlett. Dream finals though (considering there is no cross server lag, otherwise Maru Serral would be fine as well!)
I'm not sure any finals involving Rogue is a dream finals
Rogue played like he was the underdog Insanely gambly, he could as well play a bit more save and get an easy 3-0 with macro games, no? He s obviously the better player, I still think, he should have lost this series with his insane risks E.: and he thinks it was a 5-0 series WTF he was gambling and taking risks, left right and center, sometimes he lost, sometimes he got away with it.
On November 15 2021 00:43 Poopi wrote: Superb run from Scarlett. Dream finals though (considering there is no cross server lag, otherwise Maru Serral would be fine as well!)
I'm not sure any finals involving Rogue is a dream finals
On November 15 2021 00:43 Poopi wrote: Superb run from Scarlett. Dream finals though (considering there is no cross server lag, otherwise Maru Serral would be fine as well!)
I'm not sure any finals involving Rogue is a dream finals
On November 15 2021 00:45 dbRic1203 wrote: Rogue played like he was the underdog Insanely gambly, he could as well play a bit more save and get an easy 3-0 with macro games, no? He s obviously the better player, I still think, he should have lost this series with his insane risks
On November 15 2021 00:43 Poopi wrote: Superb run from Scarlett. Dream finals though (considering there is no cross server lag, otherwise Maru Serral would be fine as well!)
I'm not sure any finals involving Rogue is a dream finals
Online it’s been good. Like Asus ROG vs Maru . Plus Maru looks immune to roach ravager shenanigans on this map pool
On November 15 2021 00:43 Poopi wrote: Superb run from Scarlett. Dream finals though (considering there is no cross server lag, otherwise Maru Serral would be fine as well!)
I'm not sure any finals involving Rogue is a dream finals
HEHE one of the nerds I've been referencing. This IS the dream finals
On November 15 2021 00:43 Poopi wrote: Superb run from Scarlett. Dream finals though (considering there is no cross server lag, otherwise Maru Serral would be fine as well!)
I'm not sure any finals involving Rogue is a dream finals
His last final against Maru was quite good. It was the assembly if I am not mistaken.
On November 15 2021 00:44 geokilla wrote: Premature GG?
Do you want her to pull drones into roaches and banelings?
She had Roach Warren coming didn’t she?
Not really, it was blocked by a random ling walking past just when the attack hit (would've been super later either way, probably not even finished when she ggd)
Last Chance is basically the same thing as a season finals in terms of prize pool and format but has an even harder player pool since it's open qualifier based and Trap won that. Technically not a season finals though.
On November 15 2021 00:58 Waxangel wrote: I suspect game quality would suck if there was GSL preparation, but we'll prolly get some solid macro games since this is weekender style.
On November 15 2021 00:56 Morbidius wrote: Didn't Trap win a season finals last year?
you're probably thinking of the Last Chance tournament
Yeah, to be exact, it is first time we have seen Korean vs Korean in the final of DH Masters. I think Koreans start to be more adaptive and familiarize with the high-stakes late hours cross-server matches when their home GSL matches do not coincide with them.
Can we just talk about how arrogant that "it felt like a 5-0" comment was?
Freaking hilarious, felt like a professional wrestler talking crap after almost breaking his back beating the last guy.
I really would have loved if he just leaned into it harder and pre-emptively talked about how he was gonna stomp Maru.... him immediately pivoting to back to polite was such a obviously save-face move.
On November 15 2021 01:17 Nakajin wrote: If Maru win that, it's his first global event of his carrer no?
He won WESG.. also season finals really aren't much more prestigious than something like King of Battles. Only $2k prize difference for first place and it had a much harder player pool. If this counts that does too. So this will be his 3rd.
You know, it's a small detail but I feel like Rogue should've made the Spire elsewhere (not where the nydus was). Now Maru got two informations with the new scan: that the nydus was canceled, and that there is a Spire instead
Rogue just so decisive with this tech switch, Roach into Nydus then into Spire then back into Roach and into Lurker-Viper is just insane in a single game.
On November 15 2021 02:02 tigera6 wrote: Rogue just so decisive with this tech switch, Roach into Nydus then into Spire then back into Roach and into Lurker-Viper is just insane in a single game.
he had to do that though. No point in committing with those when they're scouted
On November 15 2021 02:02 tigera6 wrote: Rogue just so decisive with this tech switch, Roach into Nydus then into Spire then back into Roach and into Lurker-Viper is just insane in a single game.
I mean, it didn't work. So sanity may be justified.
Can we talk about that almost gamechanger when Rogue burrowed the 12 hold lurkers on the ramp? 100% if Maru had decided to not turtle and just sit back, that would never have been scanned and Rogue could have just completely turned it around.
On November 15 2021 02:21 DBooN wrote: I think maru should make ghosts.
not sure he can afford them, they've been fighting like mad dogs for ten minutes straight
If he can afford 30 extra army supply of bio, he can afford a ghost transition.
if you transition to Ghosts you also need to add the 30 extra army of bio or your Ghosts just get smushered by Banes. He transitioned at the correct time
On November 15 2021 02:35 Pandain wrote: Can we talk about that almost gamechanger when Rogue burrowed the 12 hold lurkers on the ramp? 100% if Maru had decided to not turtle and just sit back, that would never have been scanned and Rogue could have just completely turned it around.
Yeah, that hold position Lurkers could be game changer. Casters forgot to mention that.
On November 15 2021 02:35 Pandain wrote: Can we talk about that almost gamechanger when Rogue burrowed the 12 hold lurkers on the ramp? 100% if Maru had decided to not turtle and just sit back, that would never have been scanned and Rogue could have just completely turned it around.
Yeah, that hold position Lurkers could be game changer. Casters forgot to mention that.
true but the observing / casting has been top notch overall
On November 15 2021 02:35 Pandain wrote: Can we talk about that almost gamechanger when Rogue burrowed the 12 hold lurkers on the ramp? 100% if Maru had decided to not turtle and just sit back, that would never have been scanned and Rogue could have just completely turned it around.
Makes me wonder if his practice sessions with rogue is why he developed the turtly ghost play in the first place.
On November 15 2021 02:21 DBooN wrote: I think maru should make ghosts.
not sure he can afford them, they've been fighting like mad dogs for ten minutes straight
If he can afford 30 extra army supply of bio, he can afford a ghost transition.
if you transition to Ghosts you also need to add the 30 extra army of bio or your Ghosts just get smushered by Banes. He transitioned at the correct time
I've never heard of ghosts being unplayable if you're not 30 army supply ahead.
On November 15 2021 02:21 DBooN wrote: I think maru should make ghosts.
not sure he can afford them, they've been fighting like mad dogs for ten minutes straight
If he can afford 30 extra army supply of bio, he can afford a ghost transition.
if you transition to Ghosts you also need to add the 30 extra army of bio or your Ghosts just get smushered by Banes. He transitioned at the correct time
I've never heard of ghosts being unplayable if you're not 30 army supply ahead.
You misunderstand, you can't transition to Ghosts if you can't afford the Ghosts + sufficient Bio support. On the low eco he was, transitioning to Ghosts at the time you suggested would have left him with barely any support for them
On November 15 2021 02:21 DBooN wrote: I think maru should make ghosts.
not sure he can afford them, they've been fighting like mad dogs for ten minutes straight
If he can afford 30 extra army supply of bio, he can afford a ghost transition.
if you transition to Ghosts you also need to add the 30 extra army of bio or your Ghosts just get smushered by Banes. He transitioned at the correct time
I've never heard of ghosts being unplayable if you're not 30 army supply ahead.
You misunderstand, you can't transition to Ghosts if you can't afford the Ghosts + sufficient Bio support. On the low eco he was, transitioning to Ghosts at the time you suggested would have left him with barely any support for them
Yeah he had horrendous eco for a long time, floating his main CC etc
On November 15 2021 02:21 DBooN wrote: I think maru should make ghosts.
not sure he can afford them, they've been fighting like mad dogs for ten minutes straight
If he can afford 30 extra army supply of bio, he can afford a ghost transition.
if you transition to Ghosts you also need to add the 30 extra army of bio or your Ghosts just get smushered by Banes. He transitioned at the correct time
I've never heard of ghosts being unplayable if you're not 30 army supply ahead.
You misunderstand, you can't transition to Ghosts if you can't afford the Ghosts + sufficient Bio support. On the low eco he was, transitioning to Ghosts at the time you suggested would have left him with barely any support for them
What I meant was that he was ahead 30 army supply while not transitioning though.
On November 15 2021 02:53 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Missed most of this game. Was it any good?
Maru let Rogue go away with far too much eco after a mostly failed hellbat push and Rogue brought this advantage home rather easily, not too interesting a game compared to the previous one imo
On November 15 2021 02:53 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Missed most of this game. Was it any good?
Maru let Rogue go away with far too much eco after a mostly failed hellbat push and Rogue brought this advantage home rather easily, not too interesting a game compared to the previous one imo
The ability to mine the gold so much early really boosted Rogue advantage as well. He would just throw units into Maru economy and drained it eventually.
On November 15 2021 02:53 Fanatic-Templar wrote: Missed most of this game. Was it any good?
Maru let Rogue go away with far too much eco after a mostly failed hellbat push and Rogue brought this advantage home rather easily, not too interesting a game compared to the previous one imo
I wonder if Rogue should have just gone after those 2 supply depots with supply drops than try to dive the missle turret. Would have stopped Maru from building for a bit and may have slowed up that follow up just then.
On November 15 2021 03:10 darklycid wrote: Did that widow mine just win the game?
And did she really kill 31 zerglins with one shot?
No I don't think the mine won the game. Rogue lost it by wasting his banelings by dancing them around the Thor with no ling or mutalisk support. The mine shot contributed but it's the baneling loss what decided the game in my opinion.
On November 15 2021 03:10 darklycid wrote: Did that widow mine just win the game?
And did she really kill 31 zerglins with one shot?
No I don't think the mine won the game. Rogue lost it by wasting his banelings by dancing them around the Thor with no ling or mutalisk support. The mine shot contributed but it's the baneling loss what decided the game in my opinion.
The wm helped quite alot as the counterattack required way less units to deal with like this imo.
On November 15 2021 03:12 Poopi wrote: Congratulations Maru :D. No GSL this year either but at least some nice premier tournaments victories
his 4-1 defeat at the hands of Rogue in that tourney actually looks like sort of an outlier with how the rest of the year went, but yeah a solid year overall... Can't wait for Katowice
On November 15 2021 03:26 buzz_bender wrote: Wait, there's only Signature Series for Clem and Reynor?
We had Rogue, Maru, Zest and Serral before but we didn't have any yet for Cure and Trap.
Yes, I'm aware of those series. But I thought we would at least have one for someone like Showtime or Trap or HeroMarine or Maxpax. At the very least, a series on some of the more prominent players in the EU region.
On November 15 2021 03:27 swarminfestor wrote: Ironically, the matches that Rogue lost in the final against Maru delivered the best. Both ROG and Season Finals showed high quality from them.
I mean, game 4 was entertaining, but it was kind of a game of throws, don't know that I'd call it "showing high quality".
On November 15 2021 03:27 swarminfestor wrote: Ironically, the matches that Rogue lost in the final against Maru delivered the best. Both ROG and Season Finals showed high quality from them.
I mean, game 4 was entertaining, but it was kind of a game of throws, don't know that I'd call it "showing high quality".
I know that you has bias on certain player not making to the final, but Game 4 definitely was not game of throw. Burrowed banes that kill plenty of marines, double spores placement on the base to prevent three medical drops, hold position lurkers that could be game changers were all the things Rogue did in the game but apparently not enough to hurt Maru economy. Eventually, Maru had Rogue in that game.
On November 15 2021 03:27 swarminfestor wrote: Ironically, the matches that Rogue lost in the final against Maru delivered the best. Both ROG and Season Finals showed high quality from them.
I mean, game 4 was entertaining, but it was kind of a game of throws, don't know that I'd call it "showing high quality".
I know that you has bias on certain player not making to the final, but Game 4 definitely was not game of throw. Burrowed banes that kill plenty of marines, double spores placement on the base to prevent three medical drops, hold position lurkers that could be game changers were all the things Rogue did in the game but apparently not enough to hurt Maru economy. Eventually, Maru had Rogue in that game.
"Eventually" is at minute 8. Maru had Rogue in that game at minute 8, then he allowed a runby of ling/bane to run past his lowered Depot and kill 40 SCVs. I don't know how you can call anything but a throw. Then Rogue overextended repeatedly, losing his entire population of Lurkers multiple times on bad attacks, including the one where he basically donated them for free behind Maru's inside bottom base.
Don't know what "bias" you like to imagine justifies your argument, but those are things that straight up happened in this game.
On November 15 2021 03:27 swarminfestor wrote: Ironically, the matches that Rogue lost in the final against Maru delivered the best. Both ROG and Season Finals showed high quality from them.
I mean, game 4 was entertaining, but it was kind of a game of throws, don't know that I'd call it "showing high quality".
I know that you has bias on certain player not making to the final, but Game 4 definitely was not game of throw. Burrowed banes that kill plenty of marines, double spores placement on the base to prevent three medical drops, hold position lurkers that could be game changers were all the things Rogue did in the game but apparently not enough to hurt Maru economy. Eventually, Maru had Rogue in that game.
"Eventually" is at minute 8. Maru had Rogue in that game at minute 8, then he allowed a runby of ling/bane to run past his lowered Depot and kill 40 SCVs. I don't know how you can call anything but a throw. Then Rogue overextended repeatedly, losing his entire population of Lurkers multiple times on bad attacks, including the one where he basically donated them for free behind Maru's inside bottom base.
Don't know what "bias" you like to imagine justifies your argument, but those are things that straight up happened in this game.
There were no throws in that game though? They multitasked / forced errors, that’s what happens in hectic games
On November 15 2021 03:27 swarminfestor wrote: Ironically, the matches that Rogue lost in the final against Maru delivered the best. Both ROG and Season Finals showed high quality from them.
I mean, game 4 was entertaining, but it was kind of a game of throws, don't know that I'd call it "showing high quality".
I know that you has bias on certain player not making to the final, but Game 4 definitely was not game of throw. Burrowed banes that kill plenty of marines, double spores placement on the base to prevent three medical drops, hold position lurkers that could be game changers were all the things Rogue did in the game but apparently not enough to hurt Maru economy. Eventually, Maru had Rogue in that game.
"Eventually" is at minute 8. Maru had Rogue in that game at minute 8, then he allowed a runby of ling/bane to run past his lowered Depot and kill 40 SCVs. I don't know how you can call anything but a throw. Then Rogue overextended repeatedly, losing his entire population of Lurkers multiple times on bad attacks, including the one where he basically donated them for free behind Maru's inside bottom base.
Don't know what "bias" you like to imagine justifies your argument, but those are things that straight up happened in this game.
There were no throws in that game though? They multitasked / forced errors, that’s what happens in hectic games
On November 15 2021 03:27 swarminfestor wrote: Ironically, the matches that Rogue lost in the final against Maru delivered the best. Both ROG and Season Finals showed high quality from them.
I mean, game 4 was entertaining, but it was kind of a game of throws, don't know that I'd call it "showing high quality".
I know that you has bias on certain player not making to the final, but Game 4 definitely was not game of throw. Burrowed banes that kill plenty of marines, double spores placement on the base to prevent three medical drops, hold position lurkers that could be game changers were all the things Rogue did in the game but apparently not enough to hurt Maru economy. Eventually, Maru had Rogue in that game.
"Eventually" is at minute 8. Maru had Rogue in that game at minute 8, then he allowed a runby of ling/bane to run past his lowered Depot and kill 40 SCVs. I don't know how you can call anything but a throw. Then Rogue overextended repeatedly, losing his entire population of Lurkers multiple times on bad attacks, including the one where he basically donated them for free behind Maru's inside bottom base.
Don't know what "bias" you like to imagine justifies your argument, but those are things that straight up happened in this game.
The lurker fight was not a throw, if it was a lesser Terran, Rogue would have won right there. It was just Maru being good. Base on your thinking we can basically say every loss is a throw.
On November 15 2021 03:27 swarminfestor wrote: Ironically, the matches that Rogue lost in the final against Maru delivered the best. Both ROG and Season Finals showed high quality from them.
I mean, game 4 was entertaining, but it was kind of a game of throws, don't know that I'd call it "showing high quality".
I know that you has bias on certain player not making to the final, but Game 4 definitely was not game of throw. Burrowed banes that kill plenty of marines, double spores placement on the base to prevent three medical drops, hold position lurkers that could be game changers were all the things Rogue did in the game but apparently not enough to hurt Maru economy. Eventually, Maru had Rogue in that game.
"Eventually" is at minute 8. Maru had Rogue in that game at minute 8, then he allowed a runby of ling/bane to run past his lowered Depot and kill 40 SCVs. I don't know how you can call anything but a throw. Then Rogue overextended repeatedly, losing his entire population of Lurkers multiple times on bad attacks, including the one where he basically donated them for free behind Maru's inside bottom base.
Don't know what "bias" you like to imagine justifies your argument, but those are things that straight up happened in this game.
The lurker fight was not a throw, if it was a lesser Terran, Rogue would have won right there. It was just Maru being good. Base on your thinking we can basically say every loss is a throw.
Yeah those were normal mistakes that happen in every game. Not throws at all
EPT
ESL Pro Tour/2021/22/Masters/Winter
ESL SC2 - Main Stream | 
Trap vs 
Cure vs 
Scarlett![[image loading]](https://tl.net/staff/Waxangel/EPT/Winter2021/finalsbracket1.png)
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), and online season finals aren’t that hype (and there are three per season) because of the ping issues etc.
gg
