EPTTSL 7 - Championship Sunday! - Page 12
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SamirDuran
Philippines894 Posts
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tigera6
3397 Posts
On June 28 2021 08:51 Nakajin wrote: I wonder what Trap is doing so much better, because, heretic that I am, his PvZ doesn't look that much better than every other top player to my amateurish eye, but clearly he's doing something no one else is. I'd love to have a pro breaking it up to me In my view, Trap has the "smoothest" build and transition of all Protoss. He never tried to went YOLO into a certain build unless he has to, and can always transition out of it fairly effectively. Say like Glaive Adept, how many times have we seen a Toss when Adept into Roach and just die? Trap also does the Glaive Adept, but still can kill enough units and then add in reinforcement like Immortal and eventually Stalker to fight the Roach/Ravager and actually winning. One more thing is Trap micro is exceptionally quick as well, not Clem-like level but way better than any other Toss player, even rival of Parting's. He can kite the opponent to dead with Blink Stalker, or with a Prism. So, in short, while Trap PvZ doesnt look as "special", its VERY solid and complete, the same way as Serral played Zerg back in 2018. However, I am saying this not as a jinx, Trap doesnt seem to dominate each individual game the way Serral did back then. There are series of Trap where he just barely beat the opponent with a close series score, and some of the games could have gone one way or the other like the Final last night. I saw Reynor won his games convincingly, while Trap was doing too much "YOLO" and sometimes just throw in a build hoping it work. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
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parksonsc
175 Posts
On June 28 2021 12:32 ZigguratOfUr wrote: There really aren't all that many other top Protosses to compete with Trap for the title of best PvZ. Zest can be brilliant, but also very inconsistent, failing to close out games due to Zest macro, or an unwillingness to build probes. And apart from that there's... PartinG? Zoun? Not so many candidates. Zest's ZvP is also very strong, he beat Serral in this tournament too. Just because he got bopped by Trap doesn't mean his other match ups are weak. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 28 2021 12:52 parksonsc wrote: Zest's ZvP is also very strong, he beat Serral in this tournament too. Just because he got bopped by Trap doesn't mean his other match ups are weak. Zest's ZvP is very good, but not... well-rounded at all. He'll beat Serral with absolutely remarkable unit spreads and control, or excellently hold Dark's early pool with proxy hatch, but he'll also fail to close out games that he should be easily able to convert through bizarre decision making, poor macro or both. Like that game against Dark on Beckett for example should have been won twenty minutes earlier. | ||
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Durnuu
13320 Posts
On June 28 2021 06:35 Xain0n wrote: And you remember me saying that? Check again. First of all, expressing a doubt is different from being convinced of a certain, not proved, thing and whining accordingly. The "late hour disadvantage" has been widely discussed in the last year and half; I want to remind you that korean players themselves, when asked, didn't openly complain about tournaments running late. If I remember correctly some pro also added that 4/5 AM aren't that big of a deal(maybe Inno?). Adjusting the sleep schedule is a very possible thing unlike many here seem to think and even if korean players weren't already accustomed enough with playing at EU/NA timezones in the last decade, they could have had enough opportunities in recent times. Thus said, some tournaments ended in the early morning in Korea which is indeed annoying and should be avoided(as it has been afterwards) but the results of the said tournaments don't seem to indicate this issue majorly affected the outcomes. You know, I usually don't want to debate with you but saying playing at 4-5 am doesn't affect your play is such a ridiculously ignorant statement I just have to answer. Let's assume Trap sleeps a sound 8 hours every night, like the average adult, and falls asleep quickly (unlike me). This would mean his normal waking schedule would probably be something like 8 am to 12 am. TSL finals started 4 hours after that. For Reynor, assuming the same sleep schedule as Trap, it started at 9 pm, 3 hours before his "usual" sleep time (once again, just assuming a standard sleep schedule). Now I don't know if you've ever pulled an all-nighter, but I personally have been, alas, forced to do that, and talked to people who were also forced to. The majority are in agreement: you DO NOT function normally around that time, usually starting from 3 am until 6 am. You start forgetting to do basic stuff, which if you have time some time to think things over you you can make up for, but in SC2? In a game as quick as SC2 where some decisions can cost you the game in the matter of seconds, it can be truly devastating. You don't have time to think about things, except in the early game. You're on auto-pilot, but as I said earlier, you forget basic, obvious things at this hour. See: Reynor's surround on Lightshade. Well done by Reynor, but Trap could've handled that so, so much better. Also Trap's wall on Jagannatha  To play at 5 am and not have your play affected would mean to have your entire sleep schedule revolve around that. Still assuming Trap sleeps 8 hours a night, that means he would have to wake up around 12pm-1pm, to still have the finals start at the END of his day (whereas for Reynor is started 3 hours before). I don't know about you, but if I have a nice sleep schedule, I'd start feeling tired at said time, while I wouldn't 3 hours before. He can take it a step further and wake up at 3pm and sacrifice whatever life outside of SC2 he had left when he woke up at 12pm. To adjust your sleep schedule that much, it would take 5 days to a week. So to adjust to a 4 am finals, Trap would have to sacrifice most of his week including his life outside SC2. If you expand to the entirety of TSL, that's 3 weeks total. I don't doubt his motivation, but that's a lot of effort to put in for a tournament this small (no offense to TSL, but this isn't Katowice, or Code S, WCS, Blizzcon...). Last but not least, the fact that one single pro has said that playing at 4 am is fine doesn't mean the rest are fine with it and can adjust to it perfectly. Korean players didn't openly complain about region lock (except Solar after a few years of it), doesn't mean it wasn't unfair. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15961 Posts
On June 28 2021 07:10 Freeborn wrote: Awesome tournament, Trap is now BY FAR the best protoss in SC2 history. Zest looked great too though, in my eyes the best he has ever been. But literally the way that Trap turned those games around... always finding a way and doing damage and sometimes yoloing it. Just great. Almost felt like the Maru of protoss  Ugh... why do some people forget everything that didn't happen in the last 2 years? I thought this was just a foreigner-bias thing but now also for koreans...? He doesn't even have a Code S or World Championship title (Zest and sOs have 3) | ||
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darklycid
3511 Posts
On June 28 2021 17:48 Charoisaur wrote: Ugh... why do some people forget everything that didn't happen in the last 2 years? I thought this was just a foreigner-bias thing but now also for koreans...? He doesn't even have a Code S or World Championship title (Zest and sOs have 3) Trap kinda becoming the taeja of protoss currently. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 28 2021 17:45 Durnuu wrote: You know, I usually don't want to debate with you but saying playing at 4-5 am doesn't affect your play is such a ridiculously ignorant statement I just have to answer. Let's assume Trap sleeps a sound 8 hours every night, like the average adult, and falls asleep quickly (unlike me). This would mean his normal waking schedule would probably be something like 8 am to 12 am. TSL finals started 4 hours after that. For Reynor, assuming the same sleep schedule as Trap, it started at 9 pm, 3 hours before his "usual" sleep time (once again, just assuming a standard sleep schedule). Now I don't know if you've ever pulled an all-nighter, but I personally have been, alas, forced to do that, and talked to people who were also forced to. The majority are in agreement: you DO NOT function normally around that time, usually starting from 3 am until 6 am. You start forgetting to do basic stuff, which if you have time some time to think things over you you can make up for, but in SC2? In a game as quick as SC2 where some decisions can cost you the game in the matter of seconds, it can be truly devastating. You don't have time to think about things, except in the early game. You're on auto-pilot, but as I said earlier, you forget basic, obvious things at this hour. See: Reynor's surround on Lightshade. Well done by Reynor, but Trap could've handled that so, so much better. Also Trap's wall on Jagannatha To play at 5 am and not have your play affected would mean to have your entire sleep schedule revolve around that. Still assuming Trap sleeps 8 hours a night, that means he would have to wake up around 12pm-1pm, to still have the finals start at the END of his day (whereas for Reynor is started 3 hours before). I don't know about you, but if I have a nice sleep schedule, I'd start feeling tired at said time, while I wouldn't 3 hours before. He can take it a step further and wake up at 3pm and sacrifice whatever life outside of SC2 he had left when he woke up at 12pm. To adjust your sleep schedule that much, it would take 5 days to a week. So to adjust to a 4 am finals, Trap would have to sacrifice most of his week including his life outside SC2. If you expand to the entirety of TSL, that's 3 weeks total. I don't doubt his motivation, but that's a lot of effort to put in for a tournament this small (no offense to TSL, but this isn't Katowice, or Code S, WCS, Blizzcon...). Last but not least, the fact that one single pro has said that playing at 4 am is fine doesn't mean the rest are fine with it and can adjust to it perfectly. Korean players didn't openly complain about region lock (except Solar after a few years of it), doesn't mean it wasn't unfair. You are assuming too much. The average person with the average sleep schedule would definitely perform worse if forced to abruptly do something in the middle of the night, that's true. Knowing that in advance even the average person should be able to adjust his sleep schedule; it's not that hard or that impossible as you guys are making it to be. It could be unconfortable. I guess you don't know the actual sleep schedule of the korean pros, do you? There is a minority of people who naturally find themselves at ease carrying out important tasks during the night(given the same amount of hours of sleep, I would rather work/study/play/whatever at 5 am than 9 am without any doubt). Playing is progamers' job, supposedly the main source of their income and a very relevant part of their lives; even if it were a sacrifice to temporarily adjust their sleep schedules, playing Sc2 should be an important enough reason for them to do so. Also, in one year and half of cross server tournaments we haven't seen a trend of korean players performing worse when playing during the night. For example, some very amazing runs(like Dark's and Byun's) happened late in the night/early in the morning and said players displayed a higher level of play than their average in that period. The only real trend we can observe is the constant whining on forum and chats. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6929 Posts
On June 28 2021 17:45 Durnuu wrote: Last but not least, the fact that one single pro has said that playing at 4 am is fine doesn't mean the rest are fine with it and can adjust to it perfectly. Korean players didn't openly complain about region lock (except Solar after a few years of it), doesn't mean it wasn't unfair. There are some early bird kinda people and there are some owl kinda people. Me personnally, I would hate to play at 9am but could easily play through the night. But with enough time in advance neither should be that big of a problem. | ||
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sneakyfox
8216 Posts
On June 28 2021 20:28 Harris1st wrote: There are some early bird kinda people and there are some owl kinda people. Me personnally, I would hate to play at 9am but could easily play through the night. But with enough time in advance neither should be that big of a problem. Maybe like 2 am if you're into that. 5 am is another story. There has been loads of research done on the health effects of night work and the results clearly say that it is very unhealthy, especially for prolonged periods. For that reason night time work is always a big issue for unions negotiating on behalf of workers who have to do those hours. It has to be very limited etc for it not to fuck people up. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On June 28 2021 21:21 sneakyfox wrote: Maybe like 2 am if you're into that. 5 am is another story. There has been loads of research done on the health effects of night work and the results clearly say that it is very unhealthy, especially for prolonged periods. For that reason night time work is always a big issue for unions negotiating on behalf of workers who have to do those hours. It has to be very limited etc for it not to fuck people up. Besides, working regularly at a graveyard shift is one thing (security guard or police on night watch duty). Constantly shifting between Korean time and EU time (at about 8 hours apart) is quite another. | ||
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