Rogue vs. Zest is the match I'm looking forward the most since these two are evenly matched.
Maru vs. Ragnarok should be a one-sided 3-0. Don't expect much from Ragnarok. Currently there are two maybe three Zerg that could go toe to toe with Maru. Serral, Dark and maybe Rogue.
Zest is terrible in PvZ, but surprisingly, he has been doing very well against Rogue online. Also its RO8 so Rogue will just probably defeat himself as usual. Sadly, going with Zest here...
On September 11 2019 17:40 dysenterymd wrote: This should be where Rogue finally breaks the curse.
But he also should have broken the curse against Neeb, so I guess he loses.
Neeb was on fire and Rogue vs RO8. Essentially ROgue in the RO8 of Code S plays an enemy who's archon-moding it. It's him vs. Zest & RO8 curse. And I guess that it will be him vs Zest & RO8 curse & Artosis Curse now. But that's just my guess.
On September 11 2019 18:09 sudete wrote: Ragnarok win would be massive for his blizzcon chances. It's very unlikely but it would be one hell of a win
Same with Zest, if Zest wins and Ragnarok loses then Zest goes up to 9th place which is the final qualifying spot as Classic can't go.
Why is classic unable to go to the Blizzcon?
When you're close to the military service you can't leave the country unless it's allowed. They may allow this based on special circumstances, but Blizzcon and WC title in SC2 isn't such special occasion.
On September 11 2019 18:34 BerserkSword wrote: how are so many people saying that ragnarok has a chance?
Becuase Maru said his hand hurts, he played even more sloppy than his usual group standard is and Serral said Zerg OP.
On September 11 2019 18:09 sudete wrote: Ragnarok win would be massive for his blizzcon chances. It's very unlikely but it would be one hell of a win
Same with Zest, if Zest wins and Ragnarok loses then Zest goes up to 9th place which is the final qualifying spot as Classic can't go.
Why is classic unable to go to the Blizzcon?
When you're close to the military service you can't leave the country unless it's allowed. They may allow this based on special circumstances, but Blizzcon and WC title in SC2 isn't such special occasion.
On September 11 2019 19:07 Zaros wrote: Maybe rogue just dies to dts without detection next game
Maybe a screen falls on Zest's head and they rush him in a hospital and Rogue wins with a "bye"?
That's a legit strategy. The last time a screen landed on a player's head in a game with Zest, they went on to beat Zest. Zest can beat himself here and Rogue advances to Ro8.
On September 11 2019 19:07 Zaros wrote: Maybe rogue just dies to dts without detection next game
Maybe a screen falls on Zest's head and they rush him in a hospital and Rogue wins with a "bye"?
That's a legit strategy. The last time a screen landed on a player's head in a game with Zest, they went on to beat Zest. Zest can beat himself here and Rogue advances to Ro8.
On September 11 2019 19:07 Zaros wrote: Maybe rogue just dies to dts without detection next game
Maybe a screen falls on Zest's head and they rush him in a hospital and Rogue wins with a "bye"?
That's a legit strategy. The last time a screen landed on a player's head in a game with Zest, they went on to beat Zest. Zest can beat himself here and Rogue advances to Ro8.
I like the part where Rogue advances to the same stage he is at right now.
On September 11 2019 19:07 Zaros wrote: Maybe rogue just dies to dts without detection next game
Maybe a screen falls on Zest's head and they rush him in a hospital and Rogue wins with a "bye"?
That's a legit strategy. The last time a screen landed on a player's head in a game with Zest, they went on to beat Zest. Zest can beat himself here and Rogue advances to Ro8.
I like the part where Rogue advances to the same stage he is at right now.
zest actually could have won the engagement in game 4 if he hadn't move commanded templars straight into ravager ling bane, done zero tempest micro, and then clumped his army into a little ball in an open space
On September 11 2019 19:29 brickrd wrote: zest actually could have won the engagement in game 4 if he hadn't move commanded templars straight into ravager ling bane, done zero tempest micro, and then clumped his army into a little ball in an open space
That's like saying he would have won the series if he actually tried.
No shit he would, the issue is that he barely tried!
I wonder - rogue needs 8 attempts to go through RO8, imagine he needs 4 attempts to go through RO4. But, his RO8 counter will be resetted the next time
On September 11 2019 19:29 brickrd wrote: zest actually could have won the engagement in game 4 if he hadn't move commanded templars straight into ravager ling bane, done zero tempest micro, and then clumped his army into a little ball in an open space
But that would require him to be competent at PvZ.
On September 11 2019 19:29 brickrd wrote: zest actually could have won the engagement in game 4 if he hadn't move commanded templars straight into ravager ling bane, done zero tempest micro, and then clumped his army into a little ball in an open space
That's like saying he would have won the series if he actually tried.
No shit he would, the issue is that he barely tried!
On September 11 2019 19:29 brickrd wrote: zest actually could have won the engagement in game 4 if he hadn't move commanded templars straight into ravager ling bane, done zero tempest micro, and then clumped his army into a little ball in an open space
Who would have thought we would rely on Ragnarok to provide us some good games today. Actually, nevermind. Zest vs Rogue was always going to be a total shitshow...
we all know that GSL is by far the hardest and most skilled competition in the world. I really hope Maru manages to overcome the monster that is Ragnarok!
On September 11 2019 19:44 NExt wrote: Is Maru wearing an engagement/wedding ring?
What? But he's just a baby!? They grow so fast
He's 22, right? Either way it's a promise ring, not an engagement ring AFAIK. The 100 day mark is when many couples decide to take the leap and get one. In other words, it's way way more casual.
On September 11 2019 19:29 brickrd wrote: zest actually could have won the engagement in game 4 if he hadn't move commanded templars straight into ravager ling bane, done zero tempest micro, and then clumped his army into a little ball in an open space
That's like saying he would have won the series if he actually tried.
No shit he would, the issue is that he barely tried!
This battlecruiser / big maps meta is annoying. Do zergs really need to bother scouting with fast overlords when it's almost always a BC build? :o Scout for the 2rax and if there is none assume BC build on acropolis
On September 11 2019 19:51 Poopi wrote: This battlecruiser / big maps meta is annoying. Do zergs really need to bother scouting with fast overlords when it's almost always a BC build? :o Scout for the 2rax and if there is none assume BC build on acropolis
But then you don't have time to type: "fuck BC, every game, Terran op" in chat because you have to focus on defending your base the first time you see them
On September 11 2019 20:21 Noocta wrote: I wonder if buffing Liberator air attack would be good for this matchup. Giving Terran air AoE seems like it would solve a lot of issues.
But what would protect zerg from the terran's airball?
On September 11 2019 20:21 Noocta wrote: I wonder if buffing Liberator air attack would be good for this matchup. Giving Terran air AoE seems like it would solve a lot of issues.
Liberator air attack was really strong in early LotV, but Blizzard nerfed it to the ground like they usually do with terran
maru clearly started winning when Ragnarok kept wasting lings into the fourth base after he had blown it up with banelings, and ragnarok threw it harder wasting a bunch of ultra HP defending his hatch. was surprised tastosis thought ragnarok was doing so well. he pulled ahead a bit with the brood lord fight but then lost too many broods and took more indecisive fights
On September 11 2019 20:21 Noocta wrote: I wonder if buffing Liberator air attack would be good for this matchup. Giving Terran air AoE seems like it would solve a lot of issues.
we had that before, didn't look pretty
I'm very biased against liberators though, I hate them and their women and children too
On September 11 2019 20:21 Noocta wrote: I wonder if buffing Liberator air attack would be good for this matchup. Giving Terran air AoE seems like it would solve a lot of issues.
But what would protect zerg from the terran's airball?
Fungal and Parasite bomb ? Zerg has good answer to that stuff already, it's just that Terran is kidna stuck using Vikings for this and Vikings are a 2012 unit
Zerg OP! Zerg OP! Zerg OP! Aaand Zerg loses. After that devastating SCV loss in the beginning. So please stop balance whinning. I think the balance right now is pretty good with the new patch. Realy great series so far, I hope they go all the way to game 5. Pretty impressive by Ragnarok so far...
terran siege unit: is good, works well when positioned skillfully terran: wins the game comfortably terran players: hmm... this siege unit sucks... maybe it could do like 20-30 more dps?
On September 11 2019 20:21 Noocta wrote: I wonder if buffing Liberator air attack would be good for this matchup. Giving Terran air AoE seems like it would solve a lot of issues.
we had that before, didn't look pretty
I'm very biased against liberators though, I hate them and their women and children too
Yeah I wasn't around for that but I can believe it. I still feel like forcing zerg to be more careful about deathballing corruptors / broodlord is how to solve the matchup tho. Right now there isn't a spell or an unit that makes zerg scared to stack all their air units together.
On September 11 2019 20:25 dbRic1203 wrote: Zerg OP! Zerg OP! Zerg OP! Aaand Zerg loses. After that devastating SCV loss in the beginning. So please stop balance whinning. I think the balance right now is pretty good with the new patch. Realy great series so far, I hope they go all the way to game 5. Pretty impressive by Ragnarok so far...
So you are one of those people who think if a race is OP they should 100% never lose?
On September 11 2019 20:25 dbRic1203 wrote: Zerg OP! Zerg OP! Zerg OP! Aaand Zerg loses. After that devastating SCV loss in the beginning. So please stop balance whinning. I think the balance right now is pretty good with the new patch. Realy great series so far, I hope they go all the way to game 5. Pretty impressive by Ragnarok so far...
Well it's only RagnaroK against Maru so Maru taking a game off of him doesn't mean everything is fine in TvZ.
On September 11 2019 20:25 dbRic1203 wrote: Zerg OP! Zerg OP! Zerg OP! Aaand Zerg loses. After that devastating SCV loss in the beginning. So please stop balance whinning. I think the balance right now is pretty good with the new patch. Realy great series so far, I hope they go all the way to game 5. Pretty impressive by Ragnarok so far...
Well it's only RagnaroK against Maru so Maru taking a game off of him doesn't mean everything is fine in TvZ.
Ah this is more like it, was flipping between the FPVs that series, really rams home how insane Maru was playing but also how difficult it is on the Zerg’s end to keep up with that pace
Oh god the two rax, not like this! I want my game 5 damnit
On September 11 2019 20:55 Wombat_NI wrote: Ah this is more like it, was flipping between the FPVs that series, really rams home how insane Maru was playing but also how difficult it is on the Zerg’s end to keep up with that pace
Oh god the two rax, not like this! I want my game 5 damnit
On afreeca you mean? I always get an error on afreeca streams so I can't watch FPVOD :/
i think ragnarok uses too many baneling in his counterattacks, if you watch serral he usually goes for a few lings or a lot of lings and a few banes but never 20-30+ banes
ragnarok looks like he's used to using certain tricks that wreck people who aren't as good as him but don't work against a fast, adaptive opponent like maru
On September 11 2019 20:55 Wombat_NI wrote: Ah this is more like it, was flipping between the FPVs that series, really rams home how insane Maru was playing but also how difficult it is on the Zerg’s end to keep up with that pace
Oh god the two rax, not like this! I want my game 5 damnit
On afreeca you mean? I always get an error on afreeca streams so I can't watch FPVOD :/
It’s always been a bit wonky for me too, but the iOS app at least works when I’ve used it.
On September 11 2019 21:13 deacon.frost wrote: lol, Tastosis rating of games Maru v Ragnarok > Dark v TY > Trap v Keen > commercial breaks > ... uh... Zest v Rogue
On September 11 2019 21:09 Poopi wrote: I don't have sound at work, what is Maru saying?
I'm not listening either, but Terran weak, Zerg OP, Protoss OP, my ZvT bad. I'm gonna try my best.
He said zerg is strong in late game but its doable.
Well how the f is that doable? Should we play like maru?
One can but dream.
Despite playing monstrously well in the mass nuke game, still feel he could well have lost if he didn’t wipe all the Infestor energy. I wonder if the radius change made a difference or Rag’s Infestors were clumped so even old EMP would have got them all.
On September 11 2019 21:09 Poopi wrote: I don't have sound at work, what is Maru saying?
I'm not listening either, but Terran weak, Zerg OP, Protoss OP, my ZvT bad. I'm gonna try my best.
He said zerg is strong in late game but its doable.
Well how the f is that doable? Should we play like maru?
One can but dream.
Despite playing monstrously well in the mass nuke game, still feel he could well have lost if he didn’t wipe all the Infestor energy. I wonder if the radius change made a difference or Rag’s Infestors were clumped so even old EMP would have got them all.
althought im several drinks deep, from what i saw, it definitely did
On September 11 2019 21:09 Poopi wrote: I don't have sound at work, what is Maru saying?
He prepped for playing Mech, but Rogue told him to not use it. Apparently Rogue helped a lot. Rogue told him to change his King's Cove strategy.
Another proof that Maru is terrible himself and can only win if his teammates plan every map for him
i think it's obvious at this point lmao
excels at preparation tournaments
disappears at weekenders
is decimated by the smartest person on his team, sOs
he is greatly helped by the brainpower of his team
OTOH what's wrong with it? He wouldn't be the first who's a great at something mechanical but needs others who will create the strategies. That's why coaches were created
On September 11 2019 21:09 Poopi wrote: I don't have sound at work, what is Maru saying?
I'm not listening either, but Terran weak, Zerg OP, Protoss OP, my ZvT bad. I'm gonna try my best.
He said zerg is strong in late game but its doable.
Well how the f is that doable? Should we play like maru?
Just be the best terran player in the world i guess. Or try to win from the midgame all the time.
Or perhaps his heavy multiprong aggression is the key to it (well assuming the terran players can execute it good enough)
...or players should stop acting like the balance right now has a huge impact on their games. I'm not saying that Serral was wrong when he said that Zerg is strong, one should just remember that this a grandmaster talking about grandmaster-/tournamentlevel. So unless you're GM there are probably other issues in your gameplay that affect your game way more than the "imbalance" of lategame Zerg.
Once again, not saying that Z isn't strong but acting like you have to be Maru to be competitive is an overstatement.
On September 11 2019 21:09 Poopi wrote: I don't have sound at work, what is Maru saying?
I'm not listening either, but Terran weak, Zerg OP, Protoss OP, my ZvT bad. I'm gonna try my best.
He said zerg is strong in late game but its doable.
Well how the f is that doable? Should we play like maru?
Just be the best terran player in the world i guess. Or try to win from the midgame all the time.
Or perhaps his heavy multiprong aggression is the key to it (well assuming the terran players can execute it good enough)
...or players should stop acting like the balance right now has a huge impact on their games. I'm not saying that Serral was wrong when he said that Zerg is strong, one should just remember that this a grandmaster talking about grandmaster-/tournamentlevel. So unless you're GM there are probably other issues in your gameplay that affect your game way more than the "imbalance" of lategame Zerg.
Once again, not saying that Z isn't strong but acting like you have to be Maru to be competitive is an overstatement.
Not to mention that Serral was speaking about Zerg playing perfectly; Zerg has the advantage later in the game in his opinion but this doesn't mean that winning is not possible(as Maru himself said today) and it doesn't even mean Zerg is favored in ZvT overall.
Zerg's lategame has been recently nerfed, I think Terran has adequate tools to find a composition capable of dealing with BL-Infestors. If this doesn't happen, do not worry. The constant whining has already reached Protoss Spring level, Zerg is getting nerfed for sure next patch(and Protoss buffed again, hopefully).
On September 11 2019 21:09 Poopi wrote: I don't have sound at work, what is Maru saying?
He prepped for playing Mech, but Rogue told him to not use it. Apparently Rogue helped a lot. Rogue told him to change his King's Cove strategy.
Another proof that Maru is terrible himself and can only win if his teammates plan every map for him
i think it's obvious at this point lmao
excels at preparation tournaments
disappears at weekenders
is decimated by the smartest person on his team, sOs
he is greatly helped by the brainpower of his team
Well. That would explain why he was also strong in pro league.
Nevertheless. To win multiple championship you still have to have high base skill even if you prepare very well.
Maru is very similar to Fantasy in Brood War. Many argue if Oov wasn't there to feed him builds when preparing for his opponents, that he would have never had the success he did. The bottom line is that he has the skill, like Maru, to dominate and that little extra bump regarding build orders is just a small part of both their success.
I have often thought about the fairness of having players help each other between games. It sucks that Ragnarok had no one to help advise him. I think if we ban between game conversation, then they would just pretend to go to the bathroom and just have someone like Rogue or SoS pass them strategies between stalls.
On September 11 2019 21:09 Poopi wrote: I don't have sound at work, what is Maru saying?
He prepped for playing Mech, but Rogue told him to not use it. Apparently Rogue helped a lot. Rogue told him to change his King's Cove strategy.
Another proof that Maru is terrible himself and can only win if his teammates plan every map for him
i think it's obvious at this point lmao
excels at preparation tournaments
disappears at weekenders
is decimated by the smartest person on his team, sOs
he is greatly helped by the brainpower of his team
Maru's history with weekenders isn't totally stellar, but to say that he "disappears" at them is maybe painting with too broad a brush. His IEM finals with Life back in the day was incredible. He won WESG last year and had some other respectable weekender results, though he also bombed out of others pretty hard. You can say he's not consistent with weekenders and that's disappointing, but if he disappears at some of them, he doesn't ALWAYS do so.
Also, to say that he's decimated by sOs is a bit of an oversimplification. Maru-sOs in 2018 was a really interesting "rivalry" and Maru came out ahead at several points. He only looked like a clown at Blizzcon, really.
No doubt he's helped a lot by his team and I don't mean to say that his performance in prep tournaments has been the same as his performance in weekenders (of course not). But I'm not sure it's as extreme as the surface-level optics make it seem.
This whole argument wouldn't even exist if he did get other opponents in these weekenders. He lost like 4 series to stats/sOs, neither is surprising or an indication of being bad at the format. Stats is just really good, sOs is a teamkill which is always tricky and with sOs in mind even trickier. Maru has an incredibly high level of basic skill, that is his biggest strength if anything. This whole "he is good at prep" is a little ridiculous imo, it's usually not like he prepares some really wonky stuff to surprise his opponents, he basically proxy raxed every game vs TY in the finals where prep work would have been the most important (because he fears TY a lot).
It's a nice narrative which gets perpetuated due to coincidence more than anything.
Lol how Maru's initial build orders mostly failed here and he won by just out playing ragnarok in the lategame. Yet people still chalk up his wins to preparation. Most of the time his build orders don't even give him advantage in games.
In the final against Classic he had basically no unique builds, he just reacted to whatever Classic was trying to pull. In the TY final he did the same proxies every game which didn't really accomplish much.
Jin air mastermind strategy "just outmacro and multitask them to 10 minutes until you win". Maru is lucky he has that advice when other players don't.
On September 11 2019 21:09 Poopi wrote: I don't have sound at work, what is Maru saying?
He prepped for playing Mech, but Rogue told him to not use it. Apparently Rogue helped a lot. Rogue told him to change his King's Cove strategy.
Another proof that Maru is terrible himself and can only win if his teammates plan every map for him
i think it's obvious at this point lmao
excels at preparation tournaments
disappears at weekenders
is decimated by the smartest person on his team, sOs
he is greatly helped by the brainpower of his team
Well. That would explain why he was also strong in pro league.
Nevertheless. To win multiple championship you still have to have high base skill even if you prepare very well.
Maru is very similar to Fantasy in Brood War. Many argue if Oov wasn't there to feed him builds when preparing for his opponents, that he would have never had the success he did.
What makes you think it's jin air and not Maru himself making the builds though? Even when Maru was on prime he managed to 4-0 Inno with cheesy counter builds.
He also usually beats his fellow jin air players in GSL as well. He only loses to them in weekenders were preparation isn't much of a factor.
On September 12 2019 00:36 The_Red_Viper wrote: This whole argument wouldn't even exist if he did get other opponents in these weekenders. He lost like 4 series to stats/sOs, neither is surprising or an indication of being bad at the format. Stats is just really good, sOs is a teamkill which is always tricky and with sOs in mind even trickier. Maru has an incredibly high level of basic skill, that is his biggest strength if anything. This whole "he is good at prep" is a little ridiculous imo, it's usually not like he prepares some really wonky stuff to surprise his opponents, he basically proxy raxed every game vs TY in the finals where prep work would have been the most important (because he fears TY a lot).
It's a nice narrative which gets perpetuated due to coincidence more than anything.
Yes, a weird coincidence! A huge coincidence, actually. Can it really be a coincidence? Six starleagues, one weekender. His opponent can't be Stats, can't be sOs, can't be Classic, can't be Rogue...yet Maru beats them every time in Code S. How can it be?
On September 12 2019 00:40 HolydaKing wrote: If proxys by Maru don't outright kill the opponent, they are not fails. They are still good openings.
Being able to transition out into a playable game doesn't mean the proxy didn't fail its objective. It certainly rubs out the idea that Maru is getting build order wins, or even build order advantages most of the time.
The idea that Maru only wins due to preparation is just stupid. If he was getting build order wins, or winning with tailored strategies all the time, then sure. But he isn't, he literally just wins by playing twice as good as his opponents.
On September 11 2019 21:09 Poopi wrote: I don't have sound at work, what is Maru saying?
He prepped for playing Mech, but Rogue told him to not use it. Apparently Rogue helped a lot. Rogue told him to change his King's Cove strategy.
Another proof that Maru is terrible himself and can only win if his teammates plan every map for him
i think it's obvious at this point lmao
excels at preparation tournaments
disappears at weekenders
is decimated by the smartest person on his team, sOs
he is greatly helped by the brainpower of his team
Maru's history with weekenders isn't totally stellar, but to say that he "disappears" at them is maybe painting with too broad a brush. His IEM finals with Life back in the day was incredible.
The IEM might have been more on Life being extremely hangover during the series.
On September 12 2019 00:36 The_Red_Viper wrote: This whole argument wouldn't even exist if he did get other opponents in these weekenders. He lost like 4 series to stats/sOs, neither is surprising or an indication of being bad at the format. Stats is just really good, sOs is a teamkill which is always tricky and with sOs in mind even trickier. Maru has an incredibly high level of basic skill, that is his biggest strength if anything. This whole "he is good at prep" is a little ridiculous imo, it's usually not like he prepares some really wonky stuff to surprise his opponents, he basically proxy raxed every game vs TY in the finals where prep work would have been the most important (because he fears TY a lot).
It's a nice narrative which gets perpetuated due to coincidence more than anything.
Yes, a weird coincidence! A huge coincidence, actually. Can it really be a coincidence? Six starleagues, one weekender. His opponent can't be Stats, can't be sOs, can't be Classic, can't be Rogue...yet Maru beats them every time in Code S. How can it be?
He participates in very few weekenders so of course he won't win a lot of them. Plus no terran dominated weekenders in LotV anyways afaik?
On September 12 2019 00:36 The_Red_Viper wrote: This whole argument wouldn't even exist if he did get other opponents in these weekenders. He lost like 4 series to stats/sOs, neither is surprising or an indication of being bad at the format. Stats is just really good, sOs is a teamkill which is always tricky and with sOs in mind even trickier. Maru has an incredibly high level of basic skill, that is his biggest strength if anything. This whole "he is good at prep" is a little ridiculous imo, it's usually not like he prepares some really wonky stuff to surprise his opponents, he basically proxy raxed every game vs TY in the finals where prep work would have been the most important (because he fears TY a lot).
It's a nice narrative which gets perpetuated due to coincidence more than anything.
Yes, a weird coincidence! A huge coincidence, actually. Can it really be a coincidence? Six starleagues, one weekender. His opponent can't be Stats, can't be sOs, can't be Classic, can't be Rogue...yet Maru beats them every time in Code S. How can it be?
That's how probabilities work my dude, if you want to span some grand narrative there go for it, but it's still ridiculous.
If I counted correctly, Maru participated in 27 "weekenders" during the course of his nine years career, and won one of them. So few, so few... The other Horsemen in LoTV, for comparison: Byun won BlizzCon and World Cyber Arena in 2016, TY won Katowice and WESG consecutively in 2017 while Inno, in the span of three years, won IEM Gyeonggi, GSL vs The World and WESG(also GPL, but I'm still wondering how can it be considered a Premier on Liquipedia).
Also, Sc2 players aren't random events, they have distinct playstyles and certain weaknesses; Maru evidently struggles more with weekenders. It's true that he doesn't especially rely on single builds but he seems to thrive when he has more time to prepare for a specific opponent/race.
On September 12 2019 01:07 Xain0n wrote: If I counted correctly, Maru participated in 27 "weekenders" during the course of his nine years career, and won one of them. So few, so few... The other Horsemen in LoTV, for comparison: Byun won BlizzCon and World Cyber Arena in 2016, TY won Katowice and WESG consecutively in 2017 while Inno, in the span of three years, won IEM Gyeonggi, GSL vs The World and WESG(also GPL, but I'm still wondering how can it be considered a Premier on Liquipedia).
Also, Sc2 players aren't random events, they have distinct playstyles and certain weaknesses; Maru evidently struggles more with weekenders. It's true that he doesn't especially rely on single builds but he seems to thrive when he has more time to prepare for a specific opponent/race.
While I mostly agree with your post, I think it's important to note that simply counting the number of 1st places shouldn't be the primary argument used for whether a player is good or bad at a particular format.
In this case we'd be saying soo is a mediocre player and rather terrible at GSL.
Noone is denying that he has less success in weekenders, that statement is obvious. Why that is exactly is up for debate, and the grand narrative that he needs prep is rather so-so as far as i can tell. I already gave reasons why. Maru is consistently at the top of the korean ladder as well, that's another thing to consider, ladder play is purely based on what people would consider the base skill level.
You asked how it can be that he loses to them at weekenders while he beats them every time in code s (i guess since he won code s), well he played stats and sOs once each in code s for example. That is what i meant with probabilities, your sample size is ridiculously low to make any such statements.
But sure go ahead and keep on perpetuating this "maru sucks at weekenders because there is no prep" stuff if you want. Funnily enough he lost to stats in these "weekenders" in the first round each, the round where you could prep. Oh NO!
edit: one more thing to consider, because you compare weekend vs starleague success over his whole career while most of the starleague success was recently, it also paints a really flawed picture, especially because you only care about winning. Before he dominated starleagues he won 2 while having other good showings in them, plus having good showings at weekenders here and there as well, like ro4 finishes. You are arguing extremely disingenuously, not that i am surprised!
On September 12 2019 01:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: Noone is denying that he has less success in weekenders, that statement is obvious. Why that is exactly is up for debate, and the grand narrative that he needs prep is rather so-so as far as i can tell. I already gave reasons why. Maru is consistently at the top of the korean ladder as well, that's another thing to consider, ladder play is purely based on what people would consider the base skill level.
You asked how it can be that he loses to them at weekenders while he beats them every time in code s (i guess since he won code s), well he played stats and sOs once each in code s for example. That is what i meant with probabilities, your sample size is ridiculously low to make any such statements.
But sure go ahead and keep on perpetuating this "maru sucks at weekenders because there is no prep" stuff if you want. Funnily enough he lost to stats in these "weekenders" in the first round each, the round where you could prep. Oh NO!
I never said Maru sucks at weekender because he can't prepare for them, he has collected a fair amount of placements during all these years; It's that he is the most successful player ever in korean starleagues and his accomplishements in weekenders are definitely not up to par. I do not doubt, as well, Maru's ability to play at the highest level just making use of his stellar mechanics(which are in fact his main strength).
I am told Maru doesn't care for GSL vs The World and Super Tournament(forfeit your spot if you don't wanna play, JAGW gives you a salary and you are already the highest earning player in Sc2...); in any of case, even if Maru winning or losing against a single player in a certain tournament might be a case, this happens every time with every(challenging) opponent in a precise direction: Maru wins in Code S playoffs and loses in weekenders. It's hard to think a trend doesn't exist.
On September 12 2019 00:37 Fango wrote: Lol how Maru's initial build orders mostly failed here and he won by just out playing ragnarok in the lategame. Yet people still chalk up his wins to preparation. Most of the time his build orders don't even give him advantage in games.
Yeah, that double proxy rax in game 4, if my memory is right, that was scouted by Ragnarok was a build order failure. Maru had to play from behind but he still came out with the win.
I would say Maru, Byun, and Life had the top 3 micro in SC2 in their prime. So Maru is definitely up there with the best micro in all of SC2's history. And today, Maru's multitasking was just nuts, especially in game 4 where he was dropping everywhere and also picking up his marines, etc. He just out multitasked Ragnarok.
On September 11 2019 21:09 Poopi wrote: I don't have sound at work, what is Maru saying?
He prepped for playing Mech, but Rogue told him to not use it. Apparently Rogue helped a lot. Rogue told him to change his King's Cove strategy.
Another proof that Maru is terrible himself and can only win if his teammates plan every map for him
i think it's obvious at this point lmao
excels at preparation tournaments
disappears at weekenders
is decimated by the smartest person on his team, sOs
he is greatly helped by the brainpower of his team
Well. That would explain why he was also strong in pro league.
Nevertheless. To win multiple championship you still have to have high base skill even if you prepare very well.
Maru is very similar to Fantasy in Brood War. Many argue if Oov wasn't there to feed him builds when preparing for his opponents, that he would have never had the success he did.
What makes you think it's jin air and not Maru himself making the builds though? Even when Maru was on prime he managed to 4-0 Inno with cheesy counter builds.
He also usually beats his fellow jin air players in GSL as well. He only loses to them in weekenders were preparation isn't much of a factor.
Purely based of the fact that in his interview he said Rogue was giving him advice build orders between games. This may not have been the case for every series ever, but in this instance it correlates well with Fantasy.
On September 12 2019 01:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: Noone is denying that he has less success in weekenders, that statement is obvious. Why that is exactly is up for debate, and the grand narrative that he needs prep is rather so-so as far as i can tell. I already gave reasons why. Maru is consistently at the top of the korean ladder as well, that's another thing to consider, ladder play is purely based on what people would consider the base skill level.
You asked how it can be that he loses to them at weekenders while he beats them every time in code s (i guess since he won code s), well he played stats and sOs once each in code s for example. That is what i meant with probabilities, your sample size is ridiculously low to make any such statements.
But sure go ahead and keep on perpetuating this "maru sucks at weekenders because there is no prep" stuff if you want. Funnily enough he lost to stats in these "weekenders" in the first round each, the round where you could prep. Oh NO!
edit: one more thing to consider, because you compare weekend vs starleague success over his whole career while most of the starleague success was recently, it also paints a really flawed picture, especially because you only care about winning. Before he dominated starleagues he won 2 while having other good showings in them, plus having good showings at weekenders here and there as well, like ro4 finishes. You are arguing extremely disingenuously, not that i am surprised!
Well, it's your own fault to reply to him
But, how about the reason is that it simply hurts to play weekenders? Maru was confirmed now twice(and that's just what my memory can recall) with wrist/arm issues. It may simple be that by the end of a weekender Maru's health is broken and he has to slow down. He had several high placings in the career and he fails(unless he bombs out right away) in RO4/8, which could point to that. He wouldn't be the first to do that. The only difference is that he accepts the invites to them even though he probably doesn't want to show the best of Maru. This would explain also why he shows to groups and plays worse - groups can be pretty long.
Yayy, Rogue broke the curse. And it took drunk Zest to do that :D Nice ! Very happy with results today, and the Maru vs Ragna games were even really good to watch.
The whole Maru debate... I think its ridiculous to think that Maru is only good when he can prepare, when preparation seems to be his biggest weakness his entire career. Just look at how Maru wins or loses his matches. If he wins, he does not do so with a good strategic build. He was most famous for destroying Toss without Vikings in HOTS (something which was unthinkable for other players to even try). He did stupid mine drop builds against Phoenix and was successful with them. "Failed proxy rax" into win are his trademark at this point. I am sure there are other examples, but the point is, Marus biggest weakness is his "game intelligence" and strategic preparation. It has always been this way. Its his godlike execution and insane skill that often time win him a game even though he is behind after opening, or even though the meta is not favorable to Terran (remember Maru was often times the only Terran who advanced far in tournies when others struggled). On the other hand if Maru loses, he looks like a total scrub. He fails on all fronts and even his raw skill cant save him there. This is just speculation on my part, but it looks like he just dislikes travel and does not have the mentality and tenacity to be successful on weekenders.
Today during Maru interview, he mentioned that Rogue helped him with strats. Its not surprising at all, as I said above Maru was always weaker in that. But we cant just blame it on preparation. If you dont have good enough game sense and outright choose bad strats against your next opponent, it does not matter how much you prepare you will still be at a disadvantage.
On September 12 2019 00:37 Fango wrote: Lol how Maru's initial build orders mostly failed here and he won by just out playing ragnarok in the lategame. Yet people still chalk up his wins to preparation. Most of the time his build orders don't even give him advantage in games.
In the final against Classic he had basically no unique builds, he just reacted to whatever Classic was trying to pull. In the TY final he did the same proxies every game which didn't really accomplish much.
Jin air mastermind strategy "just outmacro and multitask them to 10 minutes until you win". Maru is lucky he has that advice when other players don't.
On September 12 2019 00:37 Fango wrote: Lol how Maru's initial build orders mostly failed here and he won by just out playing ragnarok in the lategame. Yet people still chalk up his wins to preparation. Most of the time his build orders don't even give him advantage in games.
In the final against Classic he had basically no unique builds, he just reacted to whatever Classic was trying to pull. In the TY final he did the same proxies every game which didn't really accomplish much.
Jin air mastermind strategy "just outmacro and multitask them to 10 minutes until you win". Maru is lucky he has that advice when other players don't.
Hence why Maru confuses me, it appears that is the vague plan in some of his best games, but such an approach of ‘just outplay your opponent’ should prosper in weekenders more so than in a prep format, but he generally inverts that.
Perhaps it’s one of life’s great unsolvable mysteries.
Did tasteless and artosis ever balance whine so much like they're doing now? They do it like a few times per game with Zerg, even though the great majority of the time we don't even hit broodlord/infestor.
I don't recall it being this bad even when Protoss was 7/8 and 5/8 of GSL ro8.
On September 12 2019 04:46 terribleplayer1 wrote: Did tasteless and artosis ever balance whine so much like they're doing now? They do it like a few times per game with Zerg, even though the great majority of the time we don't even hit broodlord/infestor.
I don't recall it being this bad even when Protoss was 7/8 and 5/8 of GSL ro8.
Some of the previous days casted were extremely long because of late game ZvT. They even had a record breaking 5 hour cast where they couldn't take the train home since it was closed by then. I think that is reason enough for anyone to burn out quickly on the matchup.
Plus, they aren't complaining about the entire matchup, but simply having Broodlord/IF fatigue. Even if Zerg loses, it's behind a 30 minute crawl. I honestly feel bad for both races. Terran has to try a hundred different ways to break Zerg and Zerg players are stuck playing 30 minutes of intense baby sitting because it gives them the best chance to win. Zergs definitely have the highest potential power in a game right now, but it's extremely demanding of the player.
On September 12 2019 03:01 MarianoSC2 wrote: Yayy, Rogue broke the curse. And it took drunk Zest to do that :D Nice ! Very happy with results today, and the Maru vs Ragna games were even really good to watch.
The whole Maru debate... I think its ridiculous to think that Maru is only good when he can prepare, when preparation seems to be his biggest weakness his entire career. Just look at how Maru wins or loses his matches. If he wins, he does not do so with a good strategic build. He was most famous for destroying Toss without Vikings in HOTS (something which was unthinkable for other players to even try). He did stupid mine drop builds against Phoenix and was successful with them. "Failed proxy rax" into win are his trademark at this point. I am sure there are other examples, but the point is, Marus biggest weakness is his "game intelligence" and strategic preparation. It has always been this way. Its his godlike execution and insane skill that often time win him a game even though he is behind after opening, or even though the meta is not favorable to Terran (remember Maru was often times the only Terran who advanced far in tournies when others struggled). On the other hand if Maru loses, he looks like a total scrub. He fails on all fronts and even his raw skill cant save him there. This is just speculation on my part, but it looks like he just dislikes travel and does not have the mentality and tenacity to be successful on weekenders.
Today during Maru interview, he mentioned that Rogue helped him with strats. Its not surprising at all, as I said above Maru was always weaker in that. But we cant just blame it on preparation. If you dont have good enough game sense and outright choose bad strats against your next opponent, it does not matter how much you prepare you will still be at a disadvantage.
Hmm, there are other parts of "preparation" than an opening buildorder. How to play the map, which units to make, how to drop, how to push and where to push, countering weaknesses and tendencies of your opponent throughout the game etc. I agree that how he opens is pretty much irrelevant for the game result but he opens in many different ways and forces his opponents to prepare for them all to not crumble early.
On September 12 2019 04:46 terribleplayer1 wrote: Did tasteless and artosis ever balance whine so much like they're doing now? They do it like a few times per game with Zerg, even though the great majority of the time we don't even hit broodlord/infestor.
I don't recall it being this bad even when Protoss was 7/8 and 5/8 of GSL ro8.
they said that terrans are having a hard time with BL infestor (true), and they said that BL infestor is less fun to watch than other compositions (opinion, and most people seem to agree)
i didn't hear any "balance whine," i think experienced commentators are allowed to express opinions on the metagame, and i think maybe you're looking too hard to get yourself triggered over balance chat
On September 12 2019 00:36 The_Red_Viper wrote: This whole argument wouldn't even exist if he did get other opponents in these weekenders. He lost like 4 series to stats/sOs, neither is surprising or an indication of being bad at the format. Stats is just really good, sOs is a teamkill which is always tricky and with sOs in mind even trickier. Maru has an incredibly high level of basic skill, that is his biggest strength if anything. This whole "he is good at prep" is a little ridiculous imo, it's usually not like he prepares some really wonky stuff to surprise his opponents, he basically proxy raxed every game vs TY in the finals where prep work would have been the most important (because he fears TY a lot).
It's a nice narrative which gets perpetuated due to coincidence more than anything.
Yes, a weird coincidence! A huge coincidence, actually. Can it really be a coincidence? Six starleagues, one weekender. His opponent can't be Stats, can't be sOs, can't be Classic, can't be Rogue...yet Maru beats them every time in Code S. How can it be?
Cause you know. No one really tries or take Code S seriously, they just don't care. Only Maru cares =)
Just want to throw out that there are more aspects to preparation than build orders. In weekenders you have to practice every matchup. In GSL RO8/4/2, you can grind tf out of one racial matchup all day every day. Maru's TvZ looked incredible today and his Tvp will look incredible in his RO4 match.
On September 12 2019 15:29 evanreyes94 wrote: Maru > Serral. He played like a god versus Ragnarok and dismantled him late game. If he can beat Ragnarok, he can definitely beat Serral no problem
That we will never known because Serral refuses to participate in GSL
Man, I hoped for TY and Ragna wins to get rid of some Protoss for Blizzcon
EDIT:
On September 12 2019 15:29 evanreyes94 wrote: Maru > Serral. He played like a god versus Ragnarok and dismantled him late game. If he can beat Ragnarok, he can definitely beat Serral no problem
On September 12 2019 15:29 evanreyes94 wrote: Maru > Serral. He played like a god versus Ragnarok and dismantled him late game. If he can beat Ragnarok, he can definitely beat Serral no problem
Serral is a whole other beast than RagnaroK. On this patch Maru is the terran with the most chances to beat Serral but it's far from easy, TvZ is super tough.
TY is screwed for BlizzCon unless he has a miraculous run at Super Tournament, right?
On September 12 2019 15:29 evanreyes94 wrote: Maru > Serral. He played like a god versus Ragnarok and dismantled him late game. If he can beat Ragnarok, he can definitely beat Serral no problem
Serral is a whole other beast than RagnaroK. On this patch Maru is the terran with the most chances to beat Serral but it's far from easy, TvZ is super tough.
TY is screwed for BlizzCon unless he has a miraculous run at Super Tournament, right?
Assuming Classic drops out, Rogue should quality for ST2, TY should make it to exactly the Ro4 and Dear should not qualify at all so both TY and Dear have exactly 3725 points at #8 and #9, so we probably get some hype bo5 to determine who gets the final seed like Naniwa won his back in 2013.
But yeah, the only way for TY to be at Blizzcon guaranteed without relying on anyone else is to win ST2. He needs to make up 675 points to Dear, 1100 points to Stats, 1125 to herO, and 625 points to Rogue who's still in the GSL, while currently being #10. It's growing unlikely. Still the best chance for Terrans, unless Gumiho out of nowhere.
B Maru was confirmed now twice(and that's just what my memory can recall) with wrist/arm issues. It may simple be that by the end of a weekender Maru's health is broken and he has to slow down.
Funny enough he has mentioned before he uses orthopedic wrist bands for that and if you look close enough before the matches, when he is adjusting his normal sport wristbands that he uses you can see he has a white wristband below that has more of an orthopedic look.
I think Maru is for sure more gifted mechanically than Serral, but he falls short in general strategy/tactics, I believe that Maru wins despite his choice of strats/moves, he can get surrounded , baited, fall into a trap and still win, sometimes it feels like I am watching a dude that brings a knife to a gun fight and somehow cuts everyone down.
On September 12 2019 15:29 evanreyes94 wrote: Maru > Serral. He played like a god versus Ragnarok and dismantled him late game. If he can beat Ragnarok, he can definitely beat Serral no problem
Serral is a whole other beast than RagnaroK. On this patch Maru is the terran with the most chances to beat Serral but it's far from easy, TvZ is super tough.
TY is screwed for BlizzCon unless he has a miraculous run at Super Tournament, right?
What do you mean by "on this patch"? Maru is anything but a patch Terran.
On September 12 2019 15:29 evanreyes94 wrote: Maru > Serral. He played like a god versus Ragnarok and dismantled him late game. If he can beat Ragnarok, he can definitely beat Serral no problem
Serral is a whole other beast than RagnaroK. On this patch Maru is the terran with the most chances to beat Serral but it's far from easy, TvZ is super tough.
TY is screwed for BlizzCon unless he has a miraculous run at Super Tournament, right?
What do you mean by "on this patch"? Maru is anything but a patch Terran.
Pretty sure he meant is as an equivalent for the period of time this patch has, than the actual changes the patch brought. Like 2/3 patches ago Inno was the best Terran. Catch my drift?
On September 12 2019 15:29 evanreyes94 wrote: Maru > Serral. He played like a god versus Ragnarok and dismantled him late game. If he can beat Ragnarok, he can definitely beat Serral no problem
Serral is a whole other beast than RagnaroK. On this patch Maru is the terran with the most chances to beat Serral but it's far from easy, TvZ is super tough.
TY is screwed for BlizzCon unless he has a miraculous run at Super Tournament, right?
What do you mean by "on this patch"? Maru is anything but a patch Terran.
On some other patches I'd see TY/INno/Maru capable of beating Serral (with Cure/Gumiho able to with a bit more luck) but this one seems really tough so only Maru seems to have a shot at it.
On September 13 2019 12:56 IshinShishi wrote: I think Maru is for sure more gifted mechanically than Serral, but he falls short in general strategy/tactics, I believe that Maru wins despite his choice of strats/moves, he can get surrounded , baited, fall into a trap and still win, sometimes it feels like I am watching a dude that brings a knife to a gun fight and somehow cuts everyone down.
I think his moves are pretty smart, at least vs Rag he wasn’t doing silly things but Maru in top gear is playing super efficient, high risk, often low reward moves constantly and grinding people down. He was always picking up and saving marines right on time, not losing medivacs and not making big positional blunders with his armies.
I think the main problem with his style is it’s really not a style you can execute well if you’re having a bad day at the office. But I think it’s a smart style if you’re that mechanically strong use your advantages as part of that style.
Watching Maru reminds me of Oberyn fighting the Mountain. The gameplan is good, arguably only he can execute said gameplan, but if you fuck up at all you can still die.
On September 13 2019 12:56 IshinShishi wrote: I think Maru is for sure more gifted mechanically than Serral, but he falls short in general strategy/tactics, I believe that Maru wins despite his choice of strats/moves, he can get surrounded , baited, fall into a trap and still win, sometimes it feels like I am watching a dude that brings a knife to a gun fight and somehow cuts everyone down.
On September 13 2019 12:56 IshinShishi wrote: I think Maru is for sure more gifted mechanically than Serral, but he falls short in general strategy/tactics, I believe that Maru wins despite his choice of strats/moves, he can get surrounded , baited, fall into a trap and still win, sometimes it feels like I am watching a dude that brings a knife to a gun fight and somehow cuts everyone down.
I think his moves are pretty smart, at least vs Rag he wasn’t doing silly things but Maru in top gear is playing super efficient, high risk, often low reward moves constantly and grinding people down. He was always picking up and saving marines right on time, not losing medivacs and not making big positional blunders with his armies.
I think the main problem with his style is it’s really not a style you can execute well if you’re having a bad day at the office. But I think it’s a smart style if you’re that mechanically strong use your advantages as part of that style.
Watching Maru reminds me of Oberyn fighting the Mountain. The gameplan is good, arguably only he can execute said gameplan, but if you fuck up at all you can still die.
Love the reference lol, going to think of him as the oberyn of sc2 from now on
On September 13 2019 12:56 IshinShishi wrote: I think Maru is for sure more gifted mechanically than Serral, but he falls short in general strategy/tactics, I believe that Maru wins despite his choice of strats/moves, he can get surrounded , baited, fall into a trap and still win, sometimes it feels like I am watching a dude that brings a knife to a gun fight and somehow cuts everyone down.
you're describing Maru of years past the reason Maru has ascended to deliverance status is because he has matured strategically and not leveraging so heavily on his micro