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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 01 2019 00:54 AttackZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 00:52 deacon.frost wrote:On July 01 2019 00:44 AttackZerg wrote:On July 01 2019 00:38 Ej_ wrote:On July 01 2019 00:37 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not see Jaedong, Effort or Soulkey in the korean zergs. They all seem fallible.
None of them look convincing zvp or zvt (to me). Dark looked good and bad in both the r04 and finals zvp.
I don't think the best player in the world atm, is a zerg player but I don't think the korean zergs are clearly the best. doesn't matter what you look like, it matters who you beat It matters when you are making the point that korean zergs aren't clearly the best at ZvP and ZvT and you must rely on factors other then a massive amount of head to heads to objectively draw a comparison. You know ... the same god damn thing you are doing. Except, I am not relying on a single match or two matches to make a conclusion. When you wade into subjective waters, you get wet. Dude, Serral is playing a level or 2 players bellow top16 players in KOrea. Doesn't matter how it looks, Serral isn't playing anyone besides Need or mjr. Special to say he has top Zvp or ZvT. While other Zergs are playing Maru, TY, Inno, Gumi. Top 4 Terrans. Or Stats, Classic - both top Protosses. Sorry not sorry, who you [play matters. I played some really good ZvP. That doesn't mean I am good because I play in a wooden league... FFS Far enough. I accept the tier argument. Still don't know that the other zergs are any better, but the competition argument is totally valid.
We can't tell because we don't see Serral in the big league.
Currently I say Dark is better. Not sure about any other. Because the scenes are split we cannot say anything about either Serral or Korean Zergs in relation to each other.
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Elazer can play way better than this. Sometimes I wonder if foreigners have some kind of psychological issues when playing these korean legends. I can't understand how suddenly a top zerg fails to do early game defense 3 games in a row and casually loses 30 drones. Zest played well, but not that well.
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On July 01 2019 01:05 Kaewins wrote:
Elazer can play way better than this. Sometimes I wonder if foreigners have some kind of psychological issues when playing these korean legends. I can't understand how suddenly a top zerg fails to do early game defense 3 games in a row and casually loses 30 drones. Zest played well, but not that well.
Because they never face such good early pressure and have no practice against this. See Lambo's and Serral's games and they crumble to the same pressure because European protoss can't micro early. Neeb can, which is why he beats all foreigner zergs
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On July 01 2019 01:06 Need wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 01:05 Kaewins wrote:
Elazer can play way better than this. Sometimes I wonder if foreigners have some kind of psychological issues when playing these korean legends. I can't understand how suddenly a top zerg fails to do early game defense 3 games in a row and casually loses 30 drones. Zest played well, but not that well. Because they never face such good early pressure and have no practice against this. See Lambo's and Serral's games and they crumble to the same pressure because European protoss can't micro early. Neeb can, which is why he beats all foreigner zergs
I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert so correct me if I'm wrong, but early oracle harass used to be standard for such a long part of the history of SC2, that by now defending this should be like second nature to these players. And I've seen them do it in previous metas, so what changed so much that they're struggling in this meta?
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On July 01 2019 01:02 ZigguratOfUr wrote:Sniping the third wouldn't have saved him there.
Probably not, but if he had sniped it instead of pushing up the ramp, there was at least some hope for him in that game. Use his army supply to keep denying 3rd bases and keep Zest on his side of the map while macroing like a mad man at home.
I can understand why he wanted to end it though as I don't think he had the equanimity to draw the game out.
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On July 01 2019 01:06 Need wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 01:05 Kaewins wrote:
Elazer can play way better than this. Sometimes I wonder if foreigners have some kind of psychological issues when playing these korean legends. I can't understand how suddenly a top zerg fails to do early game defense 3 games in a row and casually loses 30 drones. Zest played well, but not that well. Because they never face such good early pressure and have no practice against this. See Lambo's and Serral's games and they crumble to the same pressure because European protoss can't micro early. Neeb can, which is why he beats all foreigner zergs
Even the Protoss players in the couch said they can't put on that much pressure.
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On July 01 2019 00:52 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 00:44 AttackZerg wrote:On July 01 2019 00:38 Ej_ wrote:On July 01 2019 00:37 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not see Jaedong, Effort or Soulkey in the korean zergs. They all seem fallible.
None of them look convincing zvp or zvt (to me). Dark looked good and bad in both the r04 and finals zvp.
I don't think the best player in the world atm, is a zerg player but I don't think the korean zergs are clearly the best. doesn't matter what you look like, it matters who you beat It matters when you are making the point that korean zergs aren't clearly the best at ZvP and ZvT and you must rely on factors other then a massive amount of head to heads to objectively draw a comparison. You know ... the same god damn thing you are doing. Except, I am not relying on a single match or two matches to make a conclusion. When you wade into subjective waters, you get wet. Dude, Serral is playing a level or 2 players bellow top16 players in KOrea. Doesn't matter how it looks, Serral isn't playing anyone besides Need or mjr. Special to say he has top Zvp or ZvT. While other Zergs are playing Maru, TY, Inno, Gumi. Top 4 Terrans. Or Stats, Classic - both top Protosses. Sorry not sorry, who you [play matters. I played some really good ZvP. That doesn't mean I am good because I play in a wooden league... FFS
Special is not a top TvZ player, but Terran in EU haven't been terrible in 2019; also, Serral figured out ZvT by himself last year before GSL vs The World.
Korean Protoss are way ahead of their foreign counterparts, that's for sure.
"Two tiers below top 16 in Korea" is kind of ridiculous, on the other hand(also, I hope you mean Serral's competitors).
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How was soO and Zest's series in the group stage? Because right now I'd say that soO flat out dumpsters Zest.
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I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert so correct me if I'm wrong, but early oracle harass used to be standard for such a long part of the history of SC2, that by now defending this should be like second nature to these players. And I've seen them do it in previous metas, so what changed so much that they're struggling in this meta?
Well Zest just micros oracles way better than any foreigner. And when he is microing 3 at a time its hard to defend.
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I love how people use the few matches Serral lose to completely discredit him, the rest of the wins aren't meaningful but the two he lost yea 100% proves he is worst at X...
Meanwhile in aligulac...
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On July 01 2019 01:13 Boggyb wrote:
How was soO and Zest's series in the group stage? Because right now I'd say that soO flat out dumpsters Zest.
Zest in the group stage was about 2 tiers below where he is now. He lost a game because his prism with 2 immortals died to bile AFK mid map.
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On July 01 2019 01:12 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 00:52 deacon.frost wrote:On July 01 2019 00:44 AttackZerg wrote:On July 01 2019 00:38 Ej_ wrote:On July 01 2019 00:37 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not see Jaedong, Effort or Soulkey in the korean zergs. They all seem fallible.
None of them look convincing zvp or zvt (to me). Dark looked good and bad in both the r04 and finals zvp.
I don't think the best player in the world atm, is a zerg player but I don't think the korean zergs are clearly the best. doesn't matter what you look like, it matters who you beat It matters when you are making the point that korean zergs aren't clearly the best at ZvP and ZvT and you must rely on factors other then a massive amount of head to heads to objectively draw a comparison. You know ... the same god damn thing you are doing. Except, I am not relying on a single match or two matches to make a conclusion. When you wade into subjective waters, you get wet. Dude, Serral is playing a level or 2 players bellow top16 players in KOrea. Doesn't matter how it looks, Serral isn't playing anyone besides Need or mjr. Special to say he has top Zvp or ZvT. While other Zergs are playing Maru, TY, Inno, Gumi. Top 4 Terrans. Or Stats, Classic - both top Protosses. Sorry not sorry, who you [play matters. I played some really good ZvP. That doesn't mean I am good because I play in a wooden league... FFS Serral figured out ZvT by himself last year before GSL vs The World.
To be fair, it's not like it's hard to figure out when you're against an INno doing the same thing every map. Even Lambo said it's pretty straight forward iirc
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On July 01 2019 01:15 terribleplayer1 wrote:
I love how people use the few matches Serral lose to completely discredit him, the rest of the wins aren't meaningful but the two he lost yea 100% proves he is worst at X...
Meanwhile in aligulac...
When the only two he's lost are the only times he's played top level opponents, what else are you supposed to go with?
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On July 01 2019 01:15 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 01:12 Xain0n wrote:On July 01 2019 00:52 deacon.frost wrote:On July 01 2019 00:44 AttackZerg wrote:On July 01 2019 00:38 Ej_ wrote:On July 01 2019 00:37 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not see Jaedong, Effort or Soulkey in the korean zergs. They all seem fallible.
None of them look convincing zvp or zvt (to me). Dark looked good and bad in both the r04 and finals zvp.
I don't think the best player in the world atm, is a zerg player but I don't think the korean zergs are clearly the best. doesn't matter what you look like, it matters who you beat It matters when you are making the point that korean zergs aren't clearly the best at ZvP and ZvT and you must rely on factors other then a massive amount of head to heads to objectively draw a comparison. You know ... the same god damn thing you are doing. Except, I am not relying on a single match or two matches to make a conclusion. When you wade into subjective waters, you get wet. Dude, Serral is playing a level or 2 players bellow top16 players in KOrea. Doesn't matter how it looks, Serral isn't playing anyone besides Need or mjr. Special to say he has top Zvp or ZvT. While other Zergs are playing Maru, TY, Inno, Gumi. Top 4 Terrans. Or Stats, Classic - both top Protosses. Sorry not sorry, who you [play matters. I played some really good ZvP. That doesn't mean I am good because I play in a wooden league... FFS Serral figured out ZvT by himself last year before GSL vs The World. To be fair, it's not like it's hard to figure out when you're against an INno doing the same thing every map. Even Lambo said it's pretty straight forward iirc
Even Lambo almost 2-0'd Maru, Korean Terrans are nothing special 
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On July 01 2019 01:15 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 01:13 Boggyb wrote:
How was soO and Zest's series in the group stage? Because right now I'd say that soO flat out dumpsters Zest. Zest in the group stage was about 2 tiers below where he is now. He lost a game because his prism with 2 immortals died to bile AFK mid map.
That sounds like how he was losing Immortals against Elazer except he was playing someone who is as good as him except in the GSL finals rather than someone much worse than him.
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On July 01 2019 01:16 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 01:15 Fango wrote:On July 01 2019 01:12 Xain0n wrote:On July 01 2019 00:52 deacon.frost wrote:On July 01 2019 00:44 AttackZerg wrote:On July 01 2019 00:38 Ej_ wrote:On July 01 2019 00:37 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not see Jaedong, Effort or Soulkey in the korean zergs. They all seem fallible.
None of them look convincing zvp or zvt (to me). Dark looked good and bad in both the r04 and finals zvp.
I don't think the best player in the world atm, is a zerg player but I don't think the korean zergs are clearly the best. doesn't matter what you look like, it matters who you beat It matters when you are making the point that korean zergs aren't clearly the best at ZvP and ZvT and you must rely on factors other then a massive amount of head to heads to objectively draw a comparison. You know ... the same god damn thing you are doing. Except, I am not relying on a single match or two matches to make a conclusion. When you wade into subjective waters, you get wet. Dude, Serral is playing a level or 2 players bellow top16 players in KOrea. Doesn't matter how it looks, Serral isn't playing anyone besides Need or mjr. Special to say he has top Zvp or ZvT. While other Zergs are playing Maru, TY, Inno, Gumi. Top 4 Terrans. Or Stats, Classic - both top Protosses. Sorry not sorry, who you [play matters. I played some really good ZvP. That doesn't mean I am good because I play in a wooden league... FFS Serral figured out ZvT by himself last year before GSL vs The World. To be fair, it's not like it's hard to figure out when you're against an INno doing the same thing every map. Even Lambo said it's pretty straight forward iirc Even Lambo almost 2-0'd Maru, Korean Terrans are nothing special
Zanster*
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On July 01 2019 01:09 Kaewins wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 01:06 Need wrote:On July 01 2019 01:05 Kaewins wrote:
Elazer can play way better than this. Sometimes I wonder if foreigners have some kind of psychological issues when playing these korean legends. I can't understand how suddenly a top zerg fails to do early game defense 3 games in a row and casually loses 30 drones. Zest played well, but not that well. Because they never face such good early pressure and have no practice against this. See Lambo's and Serral's games and they crumble to the same pressure because European protoss can't micro early. Neeb can, which is why he beats all foreigner zergs I'm not gonna pretend to be an expert so correct me if I'm wrong, but early oracle harass used to be standard for such a long part of the history of SC2, that by now defending this should be like second nature to these players. And I've seen them do it in previous metas, so what changed so much that they're struggling in this meta?
It doesn't matter if it's 3 oracles harass or adept pressure or DT harass. Whatever they do, they do it better than what EU Zergs are used to. It's not really a meta thing IMO
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Have missed most of HSC, what games would you recommend going back to watch?
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On July 01 2019 01:18 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2019 01:16 Elentos wrote:On July 01 2019 01:15 Fango wrote:On July 01 2019 01:12 Xain0n wrote:On July 01 2019 00:52 deacon.frost wrote:On July 01 2019 00:44 AttackZerg wrote:On July 01 2019 00:38 Ej_ wrote:On July 01 2019 00:37 AttackZerg wrote:
I do not see Jaedong, Effort or Soulkey in the korean zergs. They all seem fallible.
None of them look convincing zvp or zvt (to me). Dark looked good and bad in both the r04 and finals zvp.
I don't think the best player in the world atm, is a zerg player but I don't think the korean zergs are clearly the best. doesn't matter what you look like, it matters who you beat It matters when you are making the point that korean zergs aren't clearly the best at ZvP and ZvT and you must rely on factors other then a massive amount of head to heads to objectively draw a comparison. You know ... the same god damn thing you are doing. Except, I am not relying on a single match or two matches to make a conclusion. When you wade into subjective waters, you get wet. Dude, Serral is playing a level or 2 players bellow top16 players in KOrea. Doesn't matter how it looks, Serral isn't playing anyone besides Need or mjr. Special to say he has top Zvp or ZvT. While other Zergs are playing Maru, TY, Inno, Gumi. Top 4 Terrans. Or Stats, Classic - both top Protosses. Sorry not sorry, who you [play matters. I played some really good ZvP. That doesn't mean I am good because I play in a wooden league... FFS Serral figured out ZvT by himself last year before GSL vs The World. To be fair, it's not like it's hard to figure out when you're against an INno doing the same thing every map. Even Lambo said it's pretty straight forward iirc Even Lambo almost 2-0'd Maru, Korean Terrans are nothing special Zanster*
I meant what I said.
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EPT
