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On June 02 2019 09:11 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 08:30 deacon.frost wrote:On June 02 2019 07:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 02 2019 07:38 pvsnp wrote:On June 02 2019 06:34 Xain0n wrote:On June 02 2019 05:58 pvsnp wrote:On June 01 2019 23:43 Nakajin wrote:On June 01 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 23:12 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 22:56 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
Pre-emptive complaining about hypothetical balance whine about results that didn't happen yet. Truly next level. Has there ever been a time in SC2 when people weren't complaining about Protoss? I'm pretty sure Zerg were still complaining about Protoss in early 2018 when the match up was Wings of Liberty levels of broken. If GSL were 16 Terran, 15 Zerg, and 1 Protoss, people would still be calling Protoss OP. there also has never been a time where people weren't complaining about Terran ore Zerg. I mean I can't say I have seen someone complain about Terran since IEM Katowice There's also been moment when everyone was pretty ok with zerg, late HOTS for exemple. People are complaining extensively about Terran whiners in this very thread. How dare Terrans not rejoice at the 5/2/1 distribution, this is clearly the epitome of balance. I will never cease to be amazed at the shamelessness of people whining about whine. Winning isn't enough, disproportionate and dare I say imbalanced representation isn't enough, no, any hint of dissent must be totally suppressed and stamped out. Winning? One Super Tournament(against a Terran who isn't Maru or Inno), a competition Protoss dominated even in their subpar 2018? Oppressive, I dare to say... In the last six weeks Protoss, in GSL only, have had a presence slightly superior to Zerg's during BL Infestor era; GomTvT is tiers above. Those periods of imbalance, however(including Blinkfest), lasted much longer(four months or more) and produced a streak of champions of the same race in addiction to many mirror finals, not to mention the fact global winrates were heavily skewed in favor of the dominant faction; that's not definitely what we are seeing at the moment. It's undeniable that race distribution is not ideal at the moment and that Protoss need to have some of their early/mid game strenght nerfed and/or translated to the late game; people are instead whining as if Protoss was unbeatable in all the matchups and globally dominating for months, it's just disproportionate. Our current PvPlayoffs has surpassed even GomTvT and BL/Infestor in terms of GSL (mis)representation. And why do we remember GomTvT and BL/Infestor so many years later? Because they were exceptionally imbalanced periods that persisted for far too long without intervention from Blizzard. At the time, many opportunistic hypocrites were happy to defend imbalance when it was in their favor. But who today will argue that Blizzard should have allowed those eras to continue? Now we are confronted by PvPlayoffs, and what do we hear? Opportunistic hypocrites once again advocating for continued imbalance, simply because it's in their favor. Well no. BL/Infestor had periods where players placed highly or won tournaments who were never relevant again at the highest level, current period has Protoss players with historically consistent results doing well. BL/Infestor had obviously broken elements of the game that needed tweaked, not the case with this current period of Protoss doing well. There may be issues that need a rework sure, but some people can’t even point to what the actual problems are other then Protoss winning games. With BL/Infestor it was absolutely obvious, they could rush to BL/Infestor, fungal was too good and this was an issue in both ZvT and ZvP. What is the shared problem that is seeing Protoss doing well in both PvT and PvZ? The fuck? 1) We're not professional balancing team, they're payed by Blizzard. The last time I checked my payroll there wasn't anything about Blizzard at all. So the pure fact we can't see what should be fixed isn't an argument. There are people who are payed to see this and fix this. NOT US.2) We're not even professional players here, FFS even not enough top GMs here. That's the place where balancing is happening. Why should we do someone else's job for free or try to point out GM things? What we see is that SC2 is broken. Terran is struggling for a long time, Zerg is struggling in Korea for even longer and isn't being helped just because of WCS. Blizzard shot themselves in both feet by splitting regions and not being able to address the game long term issues(e.g. WP pick up range, it was obvious much sooner it is an issue). Yes, it's not super obvious. So what, will we wait for ages until even *we* can see the issue? If you’re complaining something is broken then, maybe you should have an idea of what is broken in the first place.
PvZ is very obvious, it's the warp prism. Nerfing pickup range is a low-hanging fix but I would much prefer a warp-in time nerf because pickup micro, while flashy, contributes way less to snowballing those brutal Protoss pushes than reinforcing instantly does. I've lost count of how many engagements were decided by a dozen chargelots coming in while the other guy's equal supply of reinforcements were still rallying.
As for PvT, here's an explanation I stole from reddit that I think distills the matchup's problems pretty well:
"PvT is much more complex; its problems go all the way back to Patch 4.0 and the removal of the MSC. That being said, the biggest single problem for Terran is the earlygame before stim. Unstimmed bio is horrible, not to put too fine a point on it, and its uselessness is the reason Terran needs to tech up quickly and use things like Widow Mines or Cyclones or Banshees or Siege Tanks, some unit that can actually threaten Protoss in some way.
It’s very important to highlight that this is not a new problem whatsoever–it goes back to 2011–but Patch 4.0 ripped away the WM cloak bandaid while simultaneously buffing Stalkers, a buff that disproportionately affects their interaction with unstimmed bio. This problem in turn leads to Terran massing large amounts of units on 2 bases just to stay alive, which in turn forces them to delay their third CC while Protoss expands, which in turn forces them to attack because they already have a lot of units and Protoss is already ahead of them economically.
Compare TvP and TvZ. Terrans have no problems at all going up to 3CC against Zerg, because Hellions serve as a transition unit before Terran gets stim. Hellions are totally useless at defending against Protoss, nor is there any real replacement, so Terrans take their thirds far slower against Protoss. Which wouldn’t be a problem if Terran could apply reciprocal pressure, except they can't, so Protoss doesn’t need to make that same sacrifice when taking their third nexus and so runs away economically."
There are a lot of ways to fix PvT, but they're less obvious than PvZ's warp prism. Stalkers could be nerfed, or Terran's earlygame defensive options buffed. Reducing stim research time would probably be the simplest solution. A crazy idea I had was to give Cyclones a transformation option like Hellions have right now, into a slower, tankier Hellbat-esque unit that could fill the earlygame defense niche. Something more like the old Cyclone. Call it the Typhoon.
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On May 31 2019 11:14 brickrd wrote:
innovation and dark just because i want to laugh my head off watching the balance whiners strain their narrative after weeks of ALL tOsS rO8!!!!
hilarious thread, hilarious tournament, terrans have really reached trump levels of head in the sand fake news complaints about fake problems. ro8 could have been 7 terrans and they'd still be in here talking about how terran is "forced to do one strategy" that "isn't viable for ladder players" 
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On June 02 2019 07:38 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 06:34 Xain0n wrote:On June 02 2019 05:58 pvsnp wrote:On June 01 2019 23:43 Nakajin wrote:On June 01 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 23:12 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 22:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 21:38 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 21:27 Xain0n wrote:
If I didn't want Inno out as soon as possible, I'd be delighted to see the "Era of Protoss" leading to a TvZ Grand Final. Semis are going to be 2 Zerg, 1 Terran, and 1 Protoss. Finals are going to be either a TvZ or a ZvZ. And people will still complain about Protoss. Pre-emptive complaining about hypothetical balance whine about results that didn't happen yet. Truly next level. Has there ever been a time in SC2 when people weren't complaining about Protoss? I'm pretty sure Zerg were still complaining about Protoss in early 2018 when the match up was Wings of Liberty levels of broken. If GSL were 16 Terran, 15 Zerg, and 1 Protoss, people would still be calling Protoss OP. there also has never been a time where people weren't complaining about Terran ore Zerg. I mean I can't say I have seen someone complain about Terran since IEM Katowice There's also been moment when everyone was pretty ok with zerg, late HOTS for exemple. People are complaining extensively about Terran whiners in this very thread. How dare Terrans not rejoice at the 5/2/1 distribution, this is clearly the epitome of balance. I will never cease to be amazed at the shamelessness of people whining about whine. Winning isn't enough, disproportionate and dare I say imbalanced representation isn't enough, no, any hint of dissent must be totally suppressed and stamped out. Winning? One Super Tournament(against a Terran who isn't Maru or Inno), a competition Protoss dominated even in their subpar 2018? Oppressive, I dare to say... In the last six weeks Protoss, in GSL only, have had a presence slightly superior to Zerg's during BL Infestor era; GomTvT is tiers above. Those periods of imbalance, however(including Blinkfest), lasted much longer(four months or more) and produced a streak of champions of the same race in addiction to many mirror finals, not to mention the fact global winrates were heavily skewed in favor of the dominant faction; that's not definitely what we are seeing at the moment. It's undeniable that race distribution is not ideal at the moment and that Protoss need to have some of their early/mid game strenght nerfed and/or translated to the late game; people are instead whining as if Protoss was unbeatable in all the matchups and globally dominating for months, it's just disproportionate. Our current PvPlayoffs has surpassed even GomTvT and BL/Infestor in terms of GSL (mis)representation. And why do we remember GomTvT and BL/Infestor so clearly after so many years? Because they were exceptionally imbalanced periods that persisted for far too long without intervention from Blizzard. At the time, many opportunistic hypocrites were happy to defend imbalance when it was in their favor. But who today will argue that Blizzard should have allowed those eras to continue? Now we are confronted by PvPlayoffs, and what do we hear? Opportunistic hypocrites once again advocating for continued imbalance, simply because it's in their favor. I wish I could say that I was surprised.
I already wrote down the numbers Terran had in GomTvT and they were far superior to the ones Protoss are having now: in a single round(ro8) of a single tournament(Super Tournament I 2019) the latter had a better representation; so don't worry, we are extremely far from that.
In Korea, Protoss have a wider range of top tier players(they sent four players to BlizzCon last year, for example) compared to the other races, that's a given and it has nothing to deal with balance.
You misunderstand, actual imbalance can't be defended.
Those ugly and super effective timing pushes most likely need to be toned down, but you need to give Protoss back valuable options later in the game; Blizzard won't stand still, don't worry, and we won't have another period of extended monorace domination.
The point, however, is that you guys act as if we were already at this point, while we just had a overrepresentation in(mostly) the early stages of the playoffs: Protoss are not reigning, they are not even winning more tournaments than last year and might very well not win this season. What is undeniable is that Terran has been winning this tournament for years.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 02 2019 09:11 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 08:30 deacon.frost wrote:On June 02 2019 07:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 02 2019 07:38 pvsnp wrote:On June 02 2019 06:34 Xain0n wrote:On June 02 2019 05:58 pvsnp wrote:On June 01 2019 23:43 Nakajin wrote:On June 01 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 23:12 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 22:56 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
Pre-emptive complaining about hypothetical balance whine about results that didn't happen yet. Truly next level. Has there ever been a time in SC2 when people weren't complaining about Protoss? I'm pretty sure Zerg were still complaining about Protoss in early 2018 when the match up was Wings of Liberty levels of broken. If GSL were 16 Terran, 15 Zerg, and 1 Protoss, people would still be calling Protoss OP. there also has never been a time where people weren't complaining about Terran ore Zerg. I mean I can't say I have seen someone complain about Terran since IEM Katowice There's also been moment when everyone was pretty ok with zerg, late HOTS for exemple. People are complaining extensively about Terran whiners in this very thread. How dare Terrans not rejoice at the 5/2/1 distribution, this is clearly the epitome of balance. I will never cease to be amazed at the shamelessness of people whining about whine. Winning isn't enough, disproportionate and dare I say imbalanced representation isn't enough, no, any hint of dissent must be totally suppressed and stamped out. Winning? One Super Tournament(against a Terran who isn't Maru or Inno), a competition Protoss dominated even in their subpar 2018? Oppressive, I dare to say... In the last six weeks Protoss, in GSL only, have had a presence slightly superior to Zerg's during BL Infestor era; GomTvT is tiers above. Those periods of imbalance, however(including Blinkfest), lasted much longer(four months or more) and produced a streak of champions of the same race in addiction to many mirror finals, not to mention the fact global winrates were heavily skewed in favor of the dominant faction; that's not definitely what we are seeing at the moment. It's undeniable that race distribution is not ideal at the moment and that Protoss need to have some of their early/mid game strenght nerfed and/or translated to the late game; people are instead whining as if Protoss was unbeatable in all the matchups and globally dominating for months, it's just disproportionate. Our current PvPlayoffs has surpassed even GomTvT and BL/Infestor in terms of GSL (mis)representation. And why do we remember GomTvT and BL/Infestor so many years later? Because they were exceptionally imbalanced periods that persisted for far too long without intervention from Blizzard. At the time, many opportunistic hypocrites were happy to defend imbalance when it was in their favor. But who today will argue that Blizzard should have allowed those eras to continue? Now we are confronted by PvPlayoffs, and what do we hear? Opportunistic hypocrites once again advocating for continued imbalance, simply because it's in their favor. Well no. BL/Infestor had periods where players placed highly or won tournaments who were never relevant again at the highest level, current period has Protoss players with historically consistent results doing well. BL/Infestor had obviously broken elements of the game that needed tweaked, not the case with this current period of Protoss doing well. There may be issues that need a rework sure, but some people can’t even point to what the actual problems are other then Protoss winning games. With BL/Infestor it was absolutely obvious, they could rush to BL/Infestor, fungal was too good and this was an issue in both ZvT and ZvP. What is the shared problem that is seeing Protoss doing well in both PvT and PvZ? The fuck? 1) We're not professional balancing team, they're payed by Blizzard. The last time I checked my payroll there wasn't anything about Blizzard at all. So the pure fact we can't see what should be fixed isn't an argument. There are people who are payed to see this and fix this. NOT US.2) We're not even professional players here, FFS even not enough top GMs here. That's the place where balancing is happening. Why should we do someone else's job for free or try to point out GM things? What we see is that SC2 is broken. Terran is struggling for a long time, Zerg is struggling in Korea for even longer and isn't being helped just because of WCS. Blizzard shot themselves in both feet by splitting regions and not being able to address the game long term issues(e.g. WP pick up range, it was obvious much sooner it is an issue). Yes, it's not super obvious. So what, will we wait for ages until even *we* can see the issue? Ok yeah Zerg is struggling with their Blizzcon and GSL vs the world and 7 WCS titles and Terran is struggling with their 4 GSLs, Protoss is dominating with their two Super Tournaments though. You’re complaining, I’m not. I think the game is actually in a pretty good state overall, some tweaks maybe. If you’re complaining something is broken then, maybe you should have an idea of what is broken in the first place. I’ve suggested more actual balance fixes than most of the Terran whine crew have that are vaguely sensible, create a trade off with using the prism to warp in vs a pylon. More cost, slower warp in, sets gateway cooldowns back a bit. Any of those I’m fine with, the issue IMO is difficulty in scouting and responding, if a hard to scout all-in hits less hard because the prism is weaker as a reinforcement point, then reactive play is made stronger overall. Pick up range is stupid IMO and should be nerfed, it’s not actually a factor in a ton of games though
I have no clue why my car isn't starting. It's broken, it can't start. I have no idea how to fix it. Yet I demand a fix. Can you see the similarity now? I have no clue why the Terran struggle so much, I have no clue why the Zergs in Korea struggle so much yet I demand a fix. I don't have to see the fix nor what's broken ,that's the beauty of being a customer.
Titles mean shit when you have this race distribution. I don't understand why people like you pretend titles mean something. Mvp was winning during BL infestor era, was BL infestor balanced? If I apply your logic it had to be, the race distribution in RO16/RO8 meant nothing. Maru was getting pretty high during the blink era, was it balanced?
This is nonsense, titles don't mean anything about balance, especially when we look at the WCS which is a chapter of its own with their "we need region lock" and the only top player there can win anything he desires unless he fucks up.
+ Show Spoiler +to be fair I can identify some issues like WP in PvZ and the issue of large map vs slow bio units without stim without transport(which is T3 for some reason) but how to fix it and not break TvZ is beyond me, luckily we have the silent professionals of Blizzard
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Northern Ireland26221 Posts
No, but BL/Infestor and blink era were obviously broken and players couldn’t come up with reliable solutions, and especially the former players became relevant at the top level who never were before or after.
I don’t think you can balance the game around Korean Tournament racial distributions without making Protoss actually underpowered. Absolutely not to Super Tournament levels but I do think they have more strong players
I do think there are issues, especially the lack of communication from Blizzard. Even just to give us a sense of what they are looking at and thinking of, although I imagine some people will discard anything that isn’t their preferred solution out of hand, I think many of us would at least want to know what’s being considered.
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On June 02 2019 21:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
No, but BL/Infestor and blink era were obviously broken and players couldn’t come up with reliable solutions, and especially the former players became relevant at the top level who never were before or after.
I don’t think you can balance the game around Korean Tournament racial distributions without making Protoss actually underpowered. Absolutely not to Super Tournament levels but I do think they have more strong players
I do think there are issues, especially the lack of communication from Blizzard. Even just to give us a sense of what they are looking at and thinking of, although I imagine some people will discard anything that isn’t their preferred solution out of hand, I think many of us would at least want to know what’s being considered.
Yep, Hurricane, Trap, Patience, cheesO, Zest, these guys are so good a balanced game would be broken. Lol, get real dude. Can't tell if you are trolling.
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On June 02 2019 22:31 tskarzyn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 21:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
No, but BL/Infestor and blink era were obviously broken and players couldn’t come up with reliable solutions, and especially the former players became relevant at the top level who never were before or after.
I don’t think you can balance the game around Korean Tournament racial distributions without making Protoss actually underpowered. Absolutely not to Super Tournament levels but I do think they have more strong players
I do think there are issues, especially the lack of communication from Blizzard. Even just to give us a sense of what they are looking at and thinking of, although I imagine some people will discard anything that isn’t their preferred solution out of hand, I think many of us would at least want to know what’s being considered.
Yep, Hurricane, Trap, Patience, cheesO, Zest, these guys are so good a balanced game would be broken. Lol, get real dude. Can't tell if you are trolling.
You are the one trolling by including Zest and Trap.
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Northern Ireland26221 Posts
On June 03 2019 07:05 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 22:31 tskarzyn wrote:On June 02 2019 21:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
No, but BL/Infestor and blink era were obviously broken and players couldn’t come up with reliable solutions, and especially the former players became relevant at the top level who never were before or after.
I don’t think you can balance the game around Korean Tournament racial distributions without making Protoss actually underpowered. Absolutely not to Super Tournament levels but I do think they have more strong players
I do think there are issues, especially the lack of communication from Blizzard. Even just to give us a sense of what they are looking at and thinking of, although I imagine some people will discard anything that isn’t their preferred solution out of hand, I think many of us would at least want to know what’s being considered.
Yep, Hurricane, Trap, Patience, cheesO, Zest, these guys are so good a balanced game would be broken. Lol, get real dude. Can't tell if you are trolling. You are the one trolling by including Zest and Trap.
Ah Terran fanboys can be fun
Don’t really understand why people can’t just enjoy the game and be reasonable outside of their own particular race
I’m not even against changes, I’ve literally suggested Protoss nerfs because I don’t like certain aspects of how Protoss works atm
I just don’t think you get to good racial parity in GSL without having the likes of Bunny, Cure and Bunny outperform their Protoss equivalents, who are probably better players based on historic pedigree. I had a brief look over this season, not super in depth but a lot of Terran exits had suffered a vZ loss as well, or we get Maru and Inno having their mirror because they lost to a Zerg and Protoss. Ty goes out yeah but Special took out sOs pretty convincingly, and I think most would concede Ty is the better player, but Special played really well.
Especially when Protoss aren’t converting that to consistent tournament wins, and WCS while not GSL level is actually pretty good for racial distribution.
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How are these arguments any different than what we saw during the GoMTvT era? People were saying exact same things. Terrans are better players and all that, confusing cause and effect. Opinions dont matter, what matters are the facts(in this case-results) and they suggest that Protoss are too powerful. Now once people accept that you can discuss the actual possible solutions, because the game of startcraft is complex enough to have different balance states in different stages of the game, and of course there is that possibility that it should be attempted to balance it at all skill levels to keep the audience.
There is no guarantee that these discussions can be fruitful but bickering like little children and denying the obvious makes it completely pointless.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On June 02 2019 21:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
No, but BL/Infestor and blink era were obviously broken and players couldn’t come up with reliable solutions, and especially the former players became relevant at the top level who never were before or after.
I don’t think you can balance the game around Korean Tournament racial distributions without making Protoss actually underpowered. Absolutely not to Super Tournament levels but I do think they have more strong players
I do think there are issues, especially the lack of communication from Blizzard. Even just to give us a sense of what they are looking at and thinking of, although I imagine some people will discard anything that isn’t their preferred solution out of hand, I think many of us would at least want to know what’s being considered.
That's not true, when the BL/infestor era was ending(well, WoL was ending ) MC was winning with MS/VR/Colossi/Templar quite regularly. Similarly people find the way how to play against swarmhosts.
The biggest issue is that Terran was based around low economy harassment. The fact they cut off the early game and didn't give enough aggressive options to Terrans without redesign of the race just screams it. The issue is you can't just easily balance this as this is a design issue(same with queens).
No, but if you have Terran missing in several tournaments in a row it's not about race distribution but about the fact that while all Protoss get good miraculously all Terrans got bad while the Zergs in Korea cry in the corner forgotten by everone because "serral wins at WCS everything's fine".
On June 03 2019 16:57 SSNYC77 wrote:
How are these arguments any different than what we saw during the GoMTvT era? People were saying exact same things. Terrans are better players and all that, confusing cause and effect. Opinions dont matter, what matters are the facts(in this case-results) and they suggest that Protoss are too powerful. Now once people accept that you can discuss the actual possible solutions, because the game of startcraft is complex enough to have different balance states in different stages of the game, and of course there is that possibility that it should be attempted to balance it at all skill levels to keep the audience.
There is no guarantee that these discussions can be fruitful but bickering like little children and denying the obvious makes it completely pointless.
Exactly.
On June 03 2019 07:42 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2019 07:05 Xain0n wrote:On June 02 2019 22:31 tskarzyn wrote:On June 02 2019 21:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
No, but BL/Infestor and blink era were obviously broken and players couldn’t come up with reliable solutions, and especially the former players became relevant at the top level who never were before or after.
I don’t think you can balance the game around Korean Tournament racial distributions without making Protoss actually underpowered. Absolutely not to Super Tournament levels but I do think they have more strong players
I do think there are issues, especially the lack of communication from Blizzard. Even just to give us a sense of what they are looking at and thinking of, although I imagine some people will discard anything that isn’t their preferred solution out of hand, I think many of us would at least want to know what’s being considered.
Yep, Hurricane, Trap, Patience, cheesO, Zest, these guys are so good a balanced game would be broken. Lol, get real dude. Can't tell if you are trolling. You are the one trolling by including Zest and Trap. Ah Terran fanboys can be fun Don’t really understand why people can’t just enjoy the game and be reasonable outside of their own particular race I’m not even against changes, I’ve literally suggested Protoss nerfs because I don’t like certain aspects of how Protoss works atm I just don’t think you get to good racial parity in GSL without having the likes of Bunny, Cure and Bunny outperform their Protoss equivalents, who are probably better players based on historic pedigree. I had a brief look over this season, not super in depth but a lot of Terran exits had suffered a vZ loss as well, or we get Maru and Inno having their mirror because they lost to a Zerg and Protoss. Ty goes out yeah but Special took out sOs pretty convincingly, and I think most would concede Ty is the better player, but Special played really well. Especially when Protoss aren’t converting that to consistent tournament wins, and WCS while not GSL level is actually pretty good for racial distribution.
Stop with the tournament wins nonsense. Mvp and BL/infestor era. Again. And again. And again. BL/infestor era was fine, Mvp got some tournament wins? If your logic cannot be applied to this then it can't be applied to now...
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EPT
