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On June 01 2019 23:43 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 23:12 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 22:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 21:38 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 21:27 Xain0n wrote:
If I didn't want Inno out as soon as possible, I'd be delighted to see the "Era of Protoss" leading to a TvZ Grand Final. Semis are going to be 2 Zerg, 1 Terran, and 1 Protoss. Finals are going to be either a TvZ or a ZvZ. And people will still complain about Protoss. Pre-emptive complaining about hypothetical balance whine about results that didn't happen yet. Truly next level. Has there ever been a time in SC2 when people weren't complaining about Protoss? I'm pretty sure Zerg were still complaining about Protoss in early 2018 when the match up was Wings of Liberty levels of broken. If GSL were 16 Terran, 15 Zerg, and 1 Protoss, people would still be calling Protoss OP. there also has never been a time where people weren't complaining about Terran ore Zerg. I mean I can't say I have seen someone complain about Terran since IEM Katowice There's also been moment when everyone was pretty ok with zerg, late HOTS for exemple.
People are complaining extensively about Terran whiners in this very thread. How dare Terrans not rejoice at the 5/2/1 distribution, this is clearly the epitome of balance.
I will never cease to be amazed at the shamelessness of people whining about whine. Winning isn't enough, disproportionate and dare I say imbalanced representation isn't enough, no, any hint of dissent must be totally suppressed and stamped out.
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On June 02 2019 05:58 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2019 23:43 Nakajin wrote:On June 01 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 23:12 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 22:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 21:38 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 21:27 Xain0n wrote:
If I didn't want Inno out as soon as possible, I'd be delighted to see the "Era of Protoss" leading to a TvZ Grand Final. Semis are going to be 2 Zerg, 1 Terran, and 1 Protoss. Finals are going to be either a TvZ or a ZvZ. And people will still complain about Protoss. Pre-emptive complaining about hypothetical balance whine about results that didn't happen yet. Truly next level. Has there ever been a time in SC2 when people weren't complaining about Protoss? I'm pretty sure Zerg were still complaining about Protoss in early 2018 when the match up was Wings of Liberty levels of broken. If GSL were 16 Terran, 15 Zerg, and 1 Protoss, people would still be calling Protoss OP. there also has never been a time where people weren't complaining about Terran ore Zerg. I mean I can't say I have seen someone complain about Terran since IEM Katowice There's also been moment when everyone was pretty ok with zerg, late HOTS for exemple. People are complaining extensively about Terran whiners in this very thread. How dare Terrans not rejoice at the 5/2/1 distribution, this is clearly the epitome of balance. I will never cease to be amazed at the shamelessness of people whining about whine. Winning isn't enough, disproportionate and dare I say imbalanced representation isn't enough, no, any hint of dissent must be totally suppressed and stamped out.
People defended broodlord infestor, GOMTvT and Blink Era, and said other races whined too much. Nothing new under the sun.
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On June 02 2019 05:58 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2019 23:43 Nakajin wrote:On June 01 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 23:12 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 22:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 21:38 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 21:27 Xain0n wrote:
If I didn't want Inno out as soon as possible, I'd be delighted to see the "Era of Protoss" leading to a TvZ Grand Final. Semis are going to be 2 Zerg, 1 Terran, and 1 Protoss. Finals are going to be either a TvZ or a ZvZ. And people will still complain about Protoss. Pre-emptive complaining about hypothetical balance whine about results that didn't happen yet. Truly next level. Has there ever been a time in SC2 when people weren't complaining about Protoss? I'm pretty sure Zerg were still complaining about Protoss in early 2018 when the match up was Wings of Liberty levels of broken. If GSL were 16 Terran, 15 Zerg, and 1 Protoss, people would still be calling Protoss OP. there also has never been a time where people weren't complaining about Terran ore Zerg. I mean I can't say I have seen someone complain about Terran since IEM Katowice There's also been moment when everyone was pretty ok with zerg, late HOTS for exemple. People are complaining extensively about Terran whiners in this very thread. How dare Terrans not rejoice at the 5/2/1 distribution, this is clearly the epitome of balance. I will never cease to be amazed at the shamelessness of people whining about whine. Winning isn't enough, disproportionate and dare I say imbalanced representation isn't enough, no, any hint of dissent must be totally suppressed and stamped out.
Winning? One Super Tournament(against a Terran who isn't Maru or Inno), a competition Protoss dominated even in their subpar 2018? Oppressive, I dare to say...
In the last six weeks Protoss, in GSL only, have had a presence slightly superior to Zerg's during BL Infestor era; GomTvT is tiers above. Those periods of imbalance, however(including Blinkfest), lasted much longer(four months or more) and produced a streak of champions of the same race in addiction to many mirror finals, not to mention the fact global winrates were heavily skewed in favor of the dominant faction; that's not definitely what we are seeing at the moment.
It's undeniable that race distribution is not ideal at the moment and that Protoss need to have some of their early/mid game strenght nerfed and/or translated to the late game; people are instead whining as if Protoss was unbeatable in all the matchups and globally dominating for months, it's just disproportionate.
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I joined SC2 fairly recently, so I dont have the background for an educated opinion, but isnt this Protoss dominated period not that long yet for steady conclusions regarding balance, since, it could be a temporary anomaly or perhaps the protoss players just playing better or adapting faster. Especially since this trend is only in Korea if I am not mistaken and also I see some people genuine discussing the possibility of no protoss reaching the final based on what they saw in Dark and Innovation game play, which should means that people believe that protoss is vulnerable when outskilled, hence, not imbalanced or at least not heavily unbalanced
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On June 02 2019 06:39 M2 wrote:
I joined SC2 fairly recently, so I dont have the background for an educated opinion, but isnt this Protoss dominated period not that long yet for steady conclusions regarding balance, since, it could be a temporary anomaly or perhaps the protoss players just playing better or adapting faster. Especially since this trend is only in Korea if I am not mistaken and also I see some people genuine discussing the possibility of no protoss reaching the final based on what they saw in Dark and Innovation game play, which should means that people believe that protoss is vulnerable when outskilled, hence, not imbalanced or at least not heavily unbalanced
Its hard to make a believable statement saying all protoss players became much better than their peers of others races at the same time.
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On June 02 2019 06:57 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 06:39 M2 wrote:
I joined SC2 fairly recently, so I dont have the background for an educated opinion, but isnt this Protoss dominated period not that long yet for steady conclusions regarding balance, since, it could be a temporary anomaly or perhaps the protoss players just playing better or adapting faster. Especially since this trend is only in Korea if I am not mistaken and also I see some people genuine discussing the possibility of no protoss reaching the final based on what they saw in Dark and Innovation game play, which should means that people believe that protoss is vulnerable when outskilled, hence, not imbalanced or at least not heavily unbalanced Its hard to make a believable statement saying all protoss players became much better than their peers of others races at the same time.
sorry, I did not mean this, but I expressed myself incorrectly. I meant that perhaps more protoss players are playing well at the moment, doesnt mean that they were or are better players or became better miraculously somehow, but they are in better shape atm, especially since people consider that no protoss may reach the finals since its quite possible for them to lose to better players from the other races.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On June 02 2019 06:57 Argonauta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 06:39 M2 wrote:
I joined SC2 fairly recently, so I dont have the background for an educated opinion, but isnt this Protoss dominated period not that long yet for steady conclusions regarding balance, since, it could be a temporary anomaly or perhaps the protoss players just playing better or adapting faster. Especially since this trend is only in Korea if I am not mistaken and also I see some people genuine discussing the possibility of no protoss reaching the final based on what they saw in Dark and Innovation game play, which should means that people believe that protoss is vulnerable when outskilled, hence, not imbalanced or at least not heavily unbalanced Its hard to make a believable statement saying all protoss players became much better than their peers of others races at the same time.
Is that what people argue?
It’s not they became better, they have been better, and for a long, long time than some of their peers.
There are more Protoss players I’d put in the top 16 in Korea than those of the other races, guys with pedigree in winning big tournaments.
They’re not however, better than the top players of other races, so they don’t dominate tournaments but they can maybe dominate the top 16/8 of a particular tournament.
Zest, Parting, sOs, herO, Stats and Classic have all won big big tournaments. Dear has even won a GSL and Trap is a bloody good player.
That’s 7 players who have a premier, many have multiples.
Terran have what, 4 in Maru, Inno, Ty and Gumiho?
The argument isn’t that Protoss have better players than those 4, it’s that they have better players than Bunny/Cure/Fantasy etc, which they do on historic achievement.
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On June 02 2019 06:34 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 05:58 pvsnp wrote:On June 01 2019 23:43 Nakajin wrote:On June 01 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 23:12 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 22:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 21:38 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 21:27 Xain0n wrote:
If I didn't want Inno out as soon as possible, I'd be delighted to see the "Era of Protoss" leading to a TvZ Grand Final. Semis are going to be 2 Zerg, 1 Terran, and 1 Protoss. Finals are going to be either a TvZ or a ZvZ. And people will still complain about Protoss. Pre-emptive complaining about hypothetical balance whine about results that didn't happen yet. Truly next level. Has there ever been a time in SC2 when people weren't complaining about Protoss? I'm pretty sure Zerg were still complaining about Protoss in early 2018 when the match up was Wings of Liberty levels of broken. If GSL were 16 Terran, 15 Zerg, and 1 Protoss, people would still be calling Protoss OP. there also has never been a time where people weren't complaining about Terran ore Zerg. I mean I can't say I have seen someone complain about Terran since IEM Katowice There's also been moment when everyone was pretty ok with zerg, late HOTS for exemple. People are complaining extensively about Terran whiners in this very thread. How dare Terrans not rejoice at the 5/2/1 distribution, this is clearly the epitome of balance. I will never cease to be amazed at the shamelessness of people whining about whine. Winning isn't enough, disproportionate and dare I say imbalanced representation isn't enough, no, any hint of dissent must be totally suppressed and stamped out. Winning? One Super Tournament(against a Terran who isn't Maru or Inno), a competition Protoss dominated even in their subpar 2018? Oppressive, I dare to say... In the last six weeks Protoss, in GSL only, have had a presence slightly superior to Zerg's during BL Infestor era; GomTvT is tiers above. Those periods of imbalance, however(including Blinkfest), lasted much longer(four months or more) and produced a streak of champions of the same race in addiction to many mirror finals, not to mention the fact global winrates were heavily skewed in favor of the dominant faction; that's not definitely what we are seeing at the moment. It's undeniable that race distribution is not ideal at the moment and that Protoss need to have some of their early/mid game strenght nerfed and/or translated to the late game; people are instead whining as if Protoss was unbeatable in all the matchups and globally dominating for months, it's just disproportionate.
Our current PvPlayoffs has surpassed even GomTvT and BL/Infestor in terms of GSL (mis)representation. And why do we remember GomTvT and BL/Infestor so clearly after so many years? Because they were exceptionally imbalanced periods that persisted for far too long without intervention from Blizzard. At the time, many opportunistic hypocrites were happy to defend imbalance when it was in their favor. But who today will argue that Blizzard should have allowed those eras to continue?
Now we are confronted by PvPlayoffs, and what do we hear? Opportunistic hypocrites once again advocating for continued imbalance, simply because it's in their favor. I wish I could say that I was surprised.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
I’ll also add that Terrans and Zergs have been unfortunate in Korea in terms of the players they’ve lost vs their Protoss equivalents.
Taeja to Mvp to injury were big losses to fans of Terran and fans of Starcraft. Byun hit the top of the mountain and had to vacate it for reasons outside his control. Flash had shown consistent improvement and won a tournament, Dream showed tournament winning potential.
Zergs lost the most talented player they ever had IMO for extremely regrettable reasons.
Protoss have basically had Rain depart and that’s basically it in terms of people who didn’t just fall off naturally
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On June 02 2019 07:32 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 06:57 Argonauta wrote:On June 02 2019 06:39 M2 wrote:
I joined SC2 fairly recently, so I dont have the background for an educated opinion, but isnt this Protoss dominated period not that long yet for steady conclusions regarding balance, since, it could be a temporary anomaly or perhaps the protoss players just playing better or adapting faster. Especially since this trend is only in Korea if I am not mistaken and also I see some people genuine discussing the possibility of no protoss reaching the final based on what they saw in Dark and Innovation game play, which should means that people believe that protoss is vulnerable when outskilled, hence, not imbalanced or at least not heavily unbalanced Its hard to make a believable statement saying all protoss players became much better than their peers of others races at the same time. Is that what people argue? It’s not they became better, they have been better, and for a long, long time than some of their peers. There are more Protoss players I’d put in the top 16 in Korea than those of the other races, guys with pedigree in winning big tournaments. They’re not however, better than the top players of other races, so they don’t dominate tournaments but they can maybe dominate the top 16/8 of a particular tournament. Zest, Parting, sOs, herO, Stats and Classic have all won big big tournaments. Dear has even won a GSL and Trap is a bloody good player. That’s 7 players who have a premier, many have multiples. Terran have what, 4 in Maru, Inno, Ty and Gumiho? The argument isn’t that Protoss have better players than those 4, it’s that they have better players than Bunny/Cure/Fantasy etc, which they do on historic achievement.
Its embarassing that we have to read arguments such as ''My race has more good players'' in 2019. Its funny how you list every single Protoss player who achieved something and is still active as a argument. Lets do that for Zerg too? Losira is a GSL finalist, Leenock and Solar have won multiple premier tournaments, Scarlett won an IEM in Korea, why aren't Korean tournaments flooded by these amazing Zergs? The fact is you can do whatever mental gymnastics you want, the amount of good Protoss players is not more than the other two races combined times two as your logic and recent results would suggest.
On June 02 2019 07:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’ll also add that Terrans and Zergs have been unfortunate in Korea in terms of the players they’ve lost vs their Protoss equivalents.
Taeja to Mvp to injury were big losses to fans of Terran and fans of Starcraft. Byun hit the top of the mountain and had to vacate it for reasons outside his control. Flash had shown consistent improvement and won a tournament, Dream showed tournament winning potential.
Zergs lost the most talented player they ever had IMO for extremely regrettable reasons.
Protoss have basically had Rain depart and that’s basically it in terms of people who didn’t just fall off naturally
Oh yes, i wonder why these 2015 retirements took 4 years to change the competition. Byun, Life and Taeja retiring is certainly what allowed the GSL to be filled by players like Hurricane.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On June 02 2019 07:38 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 06:34 Xain0n wrote:On June 02 2019 05:58 pvsnp wrote:On June 01 2019 23:43 Nakajin wrote:On June 01 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 23:12 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 22:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 21:38 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 21:27 Xain0n wrote:
If I didn't want Inno out as soon as possible, I'd be delighted to see the "Era of Protoss" leading to a TvZ Grand Final. Semis are going to be 2 Zerg, 1 Terran, and 1 Protoss. Finals are going to be either a TvZ or a ZvZ. And people will still complain about Protoss. Pre-emptive complaining about hypothetical balance whine about results that didn't happen yet. Truly next level. Has there ever been a time in SC2 when people weren't complaining about Protoss? I'm pretty sure Zerg were still complaining about Protoss in early 2018 when the match up was Wings of Liberty levels of broken. If GSL were 16 Terran, 15 Zerg, and 1 Protoss, people would still be calling Protoss OP. there also has never been a time where people weren't complaining about Terran ore Zerg. I mean I can't say I have seen someone complain about Terran since IEM Katowice There's also been moment when everyone was pretty ok with zerg, late HOTS for exemple. People are complaining extensively about Terran whiners in this very thread. How dare Terrans not rejoice at the 5/2/1 distribution, this is clearly the epitome of balance. I will never cease to be amazed at the shamelessness of people whining about whine. Winning isn't enough, disproportionate and dare I say imbalanced representation isn't enough, no, any hint of dissent must be totally suppressed and stamped out. Winning? One Super Tournament(against a Terran who isn't Maru or Inno), a competition Protoss dominated even in their subpar 2018? Oppressive, I dare to say... In the last six weeks Protoss, in GSL only, have had a presence slightly superior to Zerg's during BL Infestor era; GomTvT is tiers above. Those periods of imbalance, however(including Blinkfest), lasted much longer(four months or more) and produced a streak of champions of the same race in addiction to many mirror finals, not to mention the fact global winrates were heavily skewed in favor of the dominant faction; that's not definitely what we are seeing at the moment. It's undeniable that race distribution is not ideal at the moment and that Protoss need to have some of their early/mid game strenght nerfed and/or translated to the late game; people are instead whining as if Protoss was unbeatable in all the matchups and globally dominating for months, it's just disproportionate. Our current PvPlayoffs has surpassed even GomTvT and BL/Infestor in terms of GSL (mis)representation. And why do we remember GomTvT and BL/Infestor so many years later? Because they were exceptionally imbalanced periods that persisted for far too long without intervention from Blizzard. At the time, many opportunistic hypocrites were happy to defend imbalance when it was in their favor. But who today will argue that Blizzard should have allowed those eras to continue? Now we are confronted by PvPlayoffs, and what do we hear? Opportunistic hypocrites once again advocating for continued imbalance, simply because it's in their favor.
Well no.
BL/Infestor had periods where players placed highly or won tournaments who were never relevant again at the highest level, current period has Protoss players with historically consistent results doing well.
BL/Infestor had obviously broken elements of the game that needed tweaked, not the case with this current period of Protoss doing well.
There may be issues that need a rework sure, but some people can’t even point to what the actual problems are other then Protoss winning games.
With BL/Infestor it was absolutely obvious, they could rush to BL/Infestor, fungal was too good and this was an issue in both ZvT and ZvP.
What is the shared problem that is seeing Protoss doing well in both PvT and PvZ?
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On June 02 2019 07:43 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 07:32 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 02 2019 06:57 Argonauta wrote:On June 02 2019 06:39 M2 wrote:
I joined SC2 fairly recently, so I dont have the background for an educated opinion, but isnt this Protoss dominated period not that long yet for steady conclusions regarding balance, since, it could be a temporary anomaly or perhaps the protoss players just playing better or adapting faster. Especially since this trend is only in Korea if I am not mistaken and also I see some people genuine discussing the possibility of no protoss reaching the final based on what they saw in Dark and Innovation game play, which should means that people believe that protoss is vulnerable when outskilled, hence, not imbalanced or at least not heavily unbalanced Its hard to make a believable statement saying all protoss players became much better than their peers of others races at the same time. Is that what people argue? It’s not they became better, they have been better, and for a long, long time than some of their peers. There are more Protoss players I’d put in the top 16 in Korea than those of the other races, guys with pedigree in winning big tournaments. They’re not however, better than the top players of other races, so they don’t dominate tournaments but they can maybe dominate the top 16/8 of a particular tournament. Zest, Parting, sOs, herO, Stats and Classic have all won big big tournaments. Dear has even won a GSL and Trap is a bloody good player. That’s 7 players who have a premier, many have multiples. Terran have what, 4 in Maru, Inno, Ty and Gumiho? The argument isn’t that Protoss have better players than those 4, it’s that they have better players than Bunny/Cure/Fantasy etc, which they do on historic achievement. Its embarassing that we have to read arguments such as ''My race has more good players'' in 2019. Its funny how you list every single Protoss player who achieved something and is still active as a argument. Lets do that for Zerg too? Losira is a GSL finalist, Leenock and Solar have won multiple premier tournaments, Scarlett won an IEM in Korea, why aren't Korean tournaments flooded by these amazing Zergs? The fact is you can do whatever mental gymnastics you want, the amount of good Protoss players is not more than the other two races combined times two as your logic and recent results would suggest. Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 07:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’ll also add that Terrans and Zergs have been unfortunate in Korea in terms of the players they’ve lost vs their Protoss equivalents.
Taeja to Mvp to injury were big losses to fans of Terran and fans of Starcraft. Byun hit the top of the mountain and had to vacate it for reasons outside his control. Flash had shown consistent improvement and won a tournament, Dream showed tournament winning potential.
Zergs lost the most talented player they ever had IMO for extremely regrettable reasons.
Protoss have basically had Rain depart and that’s basically it in terms of people who didn’t just fall off naturally Oh yes, i wonder why these 2015 retirements took 4 years to change the competition. Byun, Life and Taeja retiring is certainly what allowed the GSL to be filled by players like Hurricane.
Where’s the Terran or Zerg Hurricane then?
Look you don’t like Protoss it’s cool, you’re in a pretty big club.
If you want to argue that Cure or Bunny are better players then any of those Terran players who aren’t active, or any of the Protoss players I listed then go ahead
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On June 02 2019 07:46 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 07:38 pvsnp wrote:On June 02 2019 06:34 Xain0n wrote:On June 02 2019 05:58 pvsnp wrote:On June 01 2019 23:43 Nakajin wrote:On June 01 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 23:12 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 22:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 21:38 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 21:27 Xain0n wrote:
If I didn't want Inno out as soon as possible, I'd be delighted to see the "Era of Protoss" leading to a TvZ Grand Final. Semis are going to be 2 Zerg, 1 Terran, and 1 Protoss. Finals are going to be either a TvZ or a ZvZ. And people will still complain about Protoss. Pre-emptive complaining about hypothetical balance whine about results that didn't happen yet. Truly next level. Has there ever been a time in SC2 when people weren't complaining about Protoss? I'm pretty sure Zerg were still complaining about Protoss in early 2018 when the match up was Wings of Liberty levels of broken. If GSL were 16 Terran, 15 Zerg, and 1 Protoss, people would still be calling Protoss OP. there also has never been a time where people weren't complaining about Terran ore Zerg. I mean I can't say I have seen someone complain about Terran since IEM Katowice There's also been moment when everyone was pretty ok with zerg, late HOTS for exemple. People are complaining extensively about Terran whiners in this very thread. How dare Terrans not rejoice at the 5/2/1 distribution, this is clearly the epitome of balance. I will never cease to be amazed at the shamelessness of people whining about whine. Winning isn't enough, disproportionate and dare I say imbalanced representation isn't enough, no, any hint of dissent must be totally suppressed and stamped out. Winning? One Super Tournament(against a Terran who isn't Maru or Inno), a competition Protoss dominated even in their subpar 2018? Oppressive, I dare to say... In the last six weeks Protoss, in GSL only, have had a presence slightly superior to Zerg's during BL Infestor era; GomTvT is tiers above. Those periods of imbalance, however(including Blinkfest), lasted much longer(four months or more) and produced a streak of champions of the same race in addiction to many mirror finals, not to mention the fact global winrates were heavily skewed in favor of the dominant faction; that's not definitely what we are seeing at the moment. It's undeniable that race distribution is not ideal at the moment and that Protoss need to have some of their early/mid game strenght nerfed and/or translated to the late game; people are instead whining as if Protoss was unbeatable in all the matchups and globally dominating for months, it's just disproportionate. Our current PvPlayoffs has surpassed even GomTvT and BL/Infestor in terms of GSL (mis)representation. And why do we remember GomTvT and BL/Infestor so many years later? Because they were exceptionally imbalanced periods that persisted for far too long without intervention from Blizzard. At the time, many opportunistic hypocrites were happy to defend imbalance when it was in their favor. But who today will argue that Blizzard should have allowed those eras to continue? Now we are confronted by PvPlayoffs, and what do we hear? Opportunistic hypocrites once again advocating for continued imbalance, simply because it's in their favor. Well no. BL/Infestor had periods where players placed highly or won tournaments who were never relevant again at the highest level, current period has Protoss players with historically consistent results doing well. BL/Infestor had obviously broken elements of the game that needed tweaked, not the case with this current period of Protoss doing well. There may be issues that need a rework sure, but some people can’t even point to what the actual problems are other then Protoss winning games. With BL/Infestor it was absolutely obvious, they could rush to BL/Infestor, fungal was too good and this was an issue in both ZvT and ZvP. What is the shared problem that is seeing Protoss doing well in both PvT and PvZ?
Why do you think imbalance demands a big bad composition or push that affects all matchups? Terran in 2011 in Korean tournaments for many reasons, none of which could be applied to all matchups: shitty maps, 1/1/1, Blue Flame, Snipe. Imbalance comes in many different flavors.
On June 02 2019 07:52 Wombat_NI wrote:
Where’s the Terran or Zerg Hurricane then?
Losing to good players players in the RO32 as they should.
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Based on GSL results and aligulac, it does look like Protoss is strongest race atm. That said, I don't think the imbalance was much worse than 2018, when Zerg looked like the strongest race. That said, I think Blizzard should do something to make timing attacks less popular in the Protoss matchups.
Edit: Actually I checked again and it still looks like Zerg is doing the best overall based on Balance Report. Protoss winrates I think improved and Terran looks like it's clearly the weakest race.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On June 02 2019 07:46 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 07:38 pvsnp wrote:On June 02 2019 06:34 Xain0n wrote:On June 02 2019 05:58 pvsnp wrote:On June 01 2019 23:43 Nakajin wrote:On June 01 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 23:12 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 22:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 21:38 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 21:27 Xain0n wrote:
If I didn't want Inno out as soon as possible, I'd be delighted to see the "Era of Protoss" leading to a TvZ Grand Final. Semis are going to be 2 Zerg, 1 Terran, and 1 Protoss. Finals are going to be either a TvZ or a ZvZ. And people will still complain about Protoss. Pre-emptive complaining about hypothetical balance whine about results that didn't happen yet. Truly next level. Has there ever been a time in SC2 when people weren't complaining about Protoss? I'm pretty sure Zerg were still complaining about Protoss in early 2018 when the match up was Wings of Liberty levels of broken. If GSL were 16 Terran, 15 Zerg, and 1 Protoss, people would still be calling Protoss OP. there also has never been a time where people weren't complaining about Terran ore Zerg. I mean I can't say I have seen someone complain about Terran since IEM Katowice There's also been moment when everyone was pretty ok with zerg, late HOTS for exemple. People are complaining extensively about Terran whiners in this very thread. How dare Terrans not rejoice at the 5/2/1 distribution, this is clearly the epitome of balance. I will never cease to be amazed at the shamelessness of people whining about whine. Winning isn't enough, disproportionate and dare I say imbalanced representation isn't enough, no, any hint of dissent must be totally suppressed and stamped out. Winning? One Super Tournament(against a Terran who isn't Maru or Inno), a competition Protoss dominated even in their subpar 2018? Oppressive, I dare to say... In the last six weeks Protoss, in GSL only, have had a presence slightly superior to Zerg's during BL Infestor era; GomTvT is tiers above. Those periods of imbalance, however(including Blinkfest), lasted much longer(four months or more) and produced a streak of champions of the same race in addiction to many mirror finals, not to mention the fact global winrates were heavily skewed in favor of the dominant faction; that's not definitely what we are seeing at the moment. It's undeniable that race distribution is not ideal at the moment and that Protoss need to have some of their early/mid game strenght nerfed and/or translated to the late game; people are instead whining as if Protoss was unbeatable in all the matchups and globally dominating for months, it's just disproportionate. Our current PvPlayoffs has surpassed even GomTvT and BL/Infestor in terms of GSL (mis)representation. And why do we remember GomTvT and BL/Infestor so many years later? Because they were exceptionally imbalanced periods that persisted for far too long without intervention from Blizzard. At the time, many opportunistic hypocrites were happy to defend imbalance when it was in their favor. But who today will argue that Blizzard should have allowed those eras to continue? Now we are confronted by PvPlayoffs, and what do we hear? Opportunistic hypocrites once again advocating for continued imbalance, simply because it's in their favor. Well no. BL/Infestor had periods where players placed highly or won tournaments who were never relevant again at the highest level, current period has Protoss players with historically consistent results doing well. BL/Infestor had obviously broken elements of the game that needed tweaked, not the case with this current period of Protoss doing well. There may be issues that need a rework sure, but some people can’t even point to what the actual problems are other then Protoss winning games. With BL/Infestor it was absolutely obvious, they could rush to BL/Infestor, fungal was too good and this was an issue in both ZvT and ZvP. What is the shared problem that is seeing Protoss doing well in both PvT and PvZ?
The fuck?
1) We're not professional balancing team, they're payed by Blizzard. The last time I checked my payroll there wasn't anything about Blizzard at all. So the pure fact we can't see what should be fixed isn't an argument. There are people who are payed to see this and fix this. NOT US.
2) We're not even professional players here, FFS even not enough top GMs here. That's the place where balancing is happening.
Why should we do someone else's job for free or try to point out GM things?
What we see is that SC2 is broken. Terran is struggling for a long time, Zerg is struggling in Korea for even longer and isn't being helped just because of WCS.
Blizzard shot themselves in both feet by splitting regions and not being able to address the game long term issues(e.g. WP pick up range, it was obvious much sooner it is an issue).
Yes, it's not super obvious. So what, will we wait for ages until even *we* can see the issue?
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If you actually watch the games i think its pretty clear that Toss can afford far more mistakes in both matchups than their opponents. Imo the fact that Patience is "good" is pretty telling. Its hard to say what exactly needs to be changed though.
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On June 02 2019 08:54 Moonerz wrote:
If you actually watch the games i think its pretty clear that Toss can afford far more mistakes in both matchups than their opponents. Imo the fact that Patience is "good" is pretty telling. Its hard to say what exactly needs to be changed though.
Did you watch any of Inno against Stats?
Stats defended really bloody well in their last set, made a mistake on the last engagement and got EMPed, raven disabled and died
Starcraft at that level is inherently unforgiving
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On June 02 2019 08:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 07:46 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 02 2019 07:38 pvsnp wrote:On June 02 2019 06:34 Xain0n wrote:On June 02 2019 05:58 pvsnp wrote:On June 01 2019 23:43 Nakajin wrote:On June 01 2019 23:32 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 23:12 Boggyb wrote:On June 01 2019 22:56 Charoisaur wrote:On June 01 2019 21:38 Boggyb wrote:
[quote]
Semis are going to be 2 Zerg, 1 Terran, and 1 Protoss. Finals are going to be either a TvZ or a ZvZ. And people will still complain about Protoss. Pre-emptive complaining about hypothetical balance whine about results that didn't happen yet. Truly next level. Has there ever been a time in SC2 when people weren't complaining about Protoss? I'm pretty sure Zerg were still complaining about Protoss in early 2018 when the match up was Wings of Liberty levels of broken. If GSL were 16 Terran, 15 Zerg, and 1 Protoss, people would still be calling Protoss OP. there also has never been a time where people weren't complaining about Terran ore Zerg. I mean I can't say I have seen someone complain about Terran since IEM Katowice There's also been moment when everyone was pretty ok with zerg, late HOTS for exemple. People are complaining extensively about Terran whiners in this very thread. How dare Terrans not rejoice at the 5/2/1 distribution, this is clearly the epitome of balance. I will never cease to be amazed at the shamelessness of people whining about whine. Winning isn't enough, disproportionate and dare I say imbalanced representation isn't enough, no, any hint of dissent must be totally suppressed and stamped out. Winning? One Super Tournament(against a Terran who isn't Maru or Inno), a competition Protoss dominated even in their subpar 2018? Oppressive, I dare to say... In the last six weeks Protoss, in GSL only, have had a presence slightly superior to Zerg's during BL Infestor era; GomTvT is tiers above. Those periods of imbalance, however(including Blinkfest), lasted much longer(four months or more) and produced a streak of champions of the same race in addiction to many mirror finals, not to mention the fact global winrates were heavily skewed in favor of the dominant faction; that's not definitely what we are seeing at the moment. It's undeniable that race distribution is not ideal at the moment and that Protoss need to have some of their early/mid game strenght nerfed and/or translated to the late game; people are instead whining as if Protoss was unbeatable in all the matchups and globally dominating for months, it's just disproportionate. Our current PvPlayoffs has surpassed even GomTvT and BL/Infestor in terms of GSL (mis)representation. And why do we remember GomTvT and BL/Infestor so many years later? Because they were exceptionally imbalanced periods that persisted for far too long without intervention from Blizzard. At the time, many opportunistic hypocrites were happy to defend imbalance when it was in their favor. But who today will argue that Blizzard should have allowed those eras to continue? Now we are confronted by PvPlayoffs, and what do we hear? Opportunistic hypocrites once again advocating for continued imbalance, simply because it's in their favor. Well no. BL/Infestor had periods where players placed highly or won tournaments who were never relevant again at the highest level, current period has Protoss players with historically consistent results doing well. BL/Infestor had obviously broken elements of the game that needed tweaked, not the case with this current period of Protoss doing well. There may be issues that need a rework sure, but some people can’t even point to what the actual problems are other then Protoss winning games. With BL/Infestor it was absolutely obvious, they could rush to BL/Infestor, fungal was too good and this was an issue in both ZvT and ZvP. What is the shared problem that is seeing Protoss doing well in both PvT and PvZ? The fuck? 1) We're not professional balancing team, they're payed by Blizzard. The last time I checked my payroll there wasn't anything about Blizzard at all. So the pure fact we can't see what should be fixed isn't an argument. There are people who are payed to see this and fix this. NOT US.2) We're not even professional players here, FFS even not enough top GMs here. That's the place where balancing is happening. Why should we do someone else's job for free or try to point out GM things? What we see is that SC2 is broken. Terran is struggling for a long time, Zerg is struggling in Korea for even longer and isn't being helped just because of WCS. Blizzard shot themselves in both feet by splitting regions and not being able to address the game long term issues(e.g. WP pick up range, it was obvious much sooner it is an issue). Yes, it's not super obvious. So what, will we wait for ages until even *we* can see the issue?
Ok yeah Zerg is struggling with their Blizzcon and GSL vs the world and 7 WCS titles and Terran is struggling with their 4 GSLs, Protoss is dominating with their two Super Tournaments though.
You’re complaining, I’m not. I think the game is actually in a pretty good state overall, some tweaks maybe.
If you’re complaining something is broken then, maybe you should have an idea of what is broken in the first place.
I’ve suggested more actual balance fixes than most of the Terran whine crew have that are vaguely sensible, create a trade off with using the prism to warp in vs a pylon. More cost, slower warp in, sets gateway cooldowns back a bit. Any of those I’m fine with, the issue IMO is difficulty in scouting and responding, if a hard to scout all-in hits less hard because the prism is weaker as a reinforcement point, then reactive play is made stronger overall.
Pick up range is stupid IMO and should be nerfed, it’s not actually a factor in a ton of games though
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
I think most issues in vT and vZ are due to difficulty in picking if they’re all-inning, just poking and macroing behind etc.
It’s extremely hard to figure if they’re just posturing and dicking around, but going macro game, or if they’re going to just all-in you. The prism enables this.
Nerf the prism’s warp in potential and you make this less of an issue.
Makes it harder to go from a few poking stalkers, spot a weakness and warp in a whole bunch of blink stalkers and all in.
I think it’s this flexibility in transition from poking to game-ending aggression that is the actual issue here, and I do think it is absolutely an issue.
Go too defensive and a Toss will just put up that third and go dual forge, go too greedy and you get all-inned.
If Toss has less flexibility in making that decision I think it’s less of an issue.
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On June 02 2019 07:43 Morbidius wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 07:32 Wombat_NI wrote:On June 02 2019 06:57 Argonauta wrote:On June 02 2019 06:39 M2 wrote:
I joined SC2 fairly recently, so I dont have the background for an educated opinion, but isnt this Protoss dominated period not that long yet for steady conclusions regarding balance, since, it could be a temporary anomaly or perhaps the protoss players just playing better or adapting faster. Especially since this trend is only in Korea if I am not mistaken and also I see some people genuine discussing the possibility of no protoss reaching the final based on what they saw in Dark and Innovation game play, which should means that people believe that protoss is vulnerable when outskilled, hence, not imbalanced or at least not heavily unbalanced Its hard to make a believable statement saying all protoss players became much better than their peers of others races at the same time. Is that what people argue? It’s not they became better, they have been better, and for a long, long time than some of their peers. There are more Protoss players I’d put in the top 16 in Korea than those of the other races, guys with pedigree in winning big tournaments. They’re not however, better than the top players of other races, so they don’t dominate tournaments but they can maybe dominate the top 16/8 of a particular tournament. Zest, Parting, sOs, herO, Stats and Classic have all won big big tournaments. Dear has even won a GSL and Trap is a bloody good player. That’s 7 players who have a premier, many have multiples. Terran have what, 4 in Maru, Inno, Ty and Gumiho? The argument isn’t that Protoss have better players than those 4, it’s that they have better players than Bunny/Cure/Fantasy etc, which they do on historic achievement. Its embarassing that we have to read arguments such as ''My race has more good players'' in 2019. Its funny how you list every single Protoss player who achieved something and is still active as a argument. Lets do that for Zerg too? Losira is a GSL finalist, Leenock and Solar have won multiple premier tournaments, Scarlett won an IEM in Korea, why aren't Korean tournaments flooded by these amazing Zergs? The fact is you can do whatever mental gymnastics you want, the amount of good Protoss players is not more than the other two races combined times two as your logic and recent results would suggest. Show nested quote +On June 02 2019 07:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
I’ll also add that Terrans and Zergs have been unfortunate in Korea in terms of the players they’ve lost vs their Protoss equivalents.
Taeja to Mvp to injury were big losses to fans of Terran and fans of Starcraft. Byun hit the top of the mountain and had to vacate it for reasons outside his control. Flash had shown consistent improvement and won a tournament, Dream showed tournament winning potential.
Zergs lost the most talented player they ever had IMO for extremely regrettable reasons.
Protoss have basically had Rain depart and that’s basically it in terms of people who didn’t just fall off naturally Oh yes, i wonder why these 2015 retirements took 4 years to change the competition. Byun, Life and Taeja retiring is certainly what allowed the GSL to be filled by players like Hurricane.
It's more embarrassing that you think any of those listed zerg players are better than any of the top tier toss players lol.
You are probably one of those terran kids who also think bunny/cure are top tier players too.
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EPT
