On April 30 2019 19:21 DieuCure wrote: And GSL isnt tournament where participants are present because of their popularity and not their competence.
.
It's not something you can argue with, GSL vs the World is a GSL event and it is a Premier tournament; WCS Challenger is a WCS event but it is one major/qualifier, the difference is enormous.
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
here's another 60-70 supply comeback
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
I dunno, it doesn’t feel like it’s quite as doable to claw your way back into a game without your opponent doing something silly.
Part of this may be simply that I know SC2 very well at this stage, I know BW and WC3 pretty well but not to the same degree, so what seems a miraculous comeback to me may be just obvious to someone with a keener eye.
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
The beautiful example of how it's impossible to claw back is Maru v Dear on that big map where Dear won. Maru failed at the push, did nothing, got behind and lost. Even though he played very well. Against a competent player on a different map it's impossible to get back.
This game in general doesn't like comebacks, it doesn't matter what MU it is
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
The beautiful example of how it's impossible to claw back is Maru v Dear on that big map where Dear won. Maru failed at the push, did nothing, got behind and lost. Even though he played very well. Against a competent player on a different map it's impossible to get back.
This game in general doesn't like comebacks, it doesn't matter what MU it is
It’s super hard for sure, can be done but I don’t think the game really allows for it all that much without throws.
WC3 has heroes, as well as the upkeep mechanic where you absolutely can build a max army but it becomes a risk to do so because getting 40% of your gold income for an extended period can leave you completely broke if you don’t kill your opponent.
Brood War has a combo of the macro being so hard that even at the highest levels of play some players actually gain an advantage in it, the general buildup to huge armies being slower and high ground advantage enabling efficient trades from a deficit.
I still love SC2 but it’s a real snowbally game, even at lower levels of play that’s the case. I gradually just took to leaving games if I took too much damage early game because the times I pulled it back were massive exceptions to the times I just died 5-10 minutes later. That or I would just allin and stop macroing altogether and use the engagement purely to practice micro against a human opponent.
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
I dunno, it doesn’t feel like it’s quite as doable to claw your way back into a game without your opponent doing something silly.
Part of this may be simply that I know SC2 very well at this stage, I know BW and WC3 pretty well but not to the same degree, so what seems a miraculous comeback to me may be just obvious to someone with a keener eye.
Maybe it isnt as doable, since sc2 is more balanced and technical than both BW and WC3, but it certainly far from near impossible like the other posters were claiming.
Also, "something silly" is very vague lol. SC2 is a very difficult game, nobody plays perfectly all the time. Like in all those games I posted here, I don't think anything was so bad to the point that it was silly. Maybe if analyzed in hindsight, we could find more optimal strategy/tactic, but the whole point of real time strategy is that it's real time lol.
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
The beautiful example of how it's impossible to claw back is Maru v Dear on that big map where Dear won. Maru failed at the push, did nothing, got behind and lost. Even though he played very well. Against a competent player on a different map it's impossible to get back.
This game in general doesn't like comebacks, it doesn't matter what MU it is
How is it "impossible to claw back" when I just posted several instances of players clawing back from huge deficits lol?
Dear outplayed Maru for most of that game. Maru wasn't able to comeback, but that doesnt mean comebacks in SC2 are impossible
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
I dunno, it doesn’t feel like it’s quite as doable to claw your way back into a game without your opponent doing something silly.
Part of this may be simply that I know SC2 very well at this stage, I know BW and WC3 pretty well but not to the same degree, so what seems a miraculous comeback to me may be just obvious to someone with a keener eye.
Maybe it isnt as doable, since sc2 is more balanced and technical than both BW and WC3, but it certainly far from near impossible like the other posters were claiming.
Also, "something silly" is very vague lol. SC2 is a very difficult game, nobody plays perfectly all the time. Like in all those games I posted here, I don't think anything was so bad to the point that it was silly. Maybe if analyzed in hindsight, we could find more optimal strategy/tactic, but the whole point of real time strategy is that it's real time lol.
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
The beautiful example of how it's impossible to claw back is Maru v Dear on that big map where Dear won. Maru failed at the push, did nothing, got behind and lost. Even though he played very well. Against a competent player on a different map it's impossible to get back.
This game in general doesn't like comebacks, it doesn't matter what MU it is
How is it "impossible to claw back" when I just posted several instances of players clawing back from huge deficits lol?
Dear outplayed Maru for most of that game. Maru wasn't able to comeback, but that doesnt mean comebacks in SC2 are impossible
My point was that on a standard map with standard layout and without the person in advantage doing any mistakes it's impossible. This was Maru being on a good map and Neeb doing some slight mistakes which allowed Maru to get back. The best example is actually the WCS Mvp game
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
I dunno, it doesn’t feel like it’s quite as doable to claw your way back into a game without your opponent doing something silly.
Part of this may be simply that I know SC2 very well at this stage, I know BW and WC3 pretty well but not to the same degree, so what seems a miraculous comeback to me may be just obvious to someone with a keener eye.
Maybe it isnt as doable, since sc2 is more balanced and technical than both BW and WC3, but it certainly far from near impossible like the other posters were claiming.
Also, "something silly" is very vague lol. SC2 is a very difficult game, nobody plays perfectly all the time. Like in all those games I posted here, I don't think anything was so bad to the point that it was silly. Maybe if analyzed in hindsight, we could find more optimal strategy/tactic, but the whole point of real time strategy is that it's real time lol.
On May 02 2019 06:28 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 01 2019 05:03 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 30 2019 18:24 deacon.frost wrote:
On April 30 2019 17:49 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 30 2019 15:56 SHODAN wrote:
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
The beautiful example of how it's impossible to claw back is Maru v Dear on that big map where Dear won. Maru failed at the push, did nothing, got behind and lost. Even though he played very well. Against a competent player on a different map it's impossible to get back.
This game in general doesn't like comebacks, it doesn't matter what MU it is
How is it "impossible to claw back" when I just posted several instances of players clawing back from huge deficits lol?
Dear outplayed Maru for most of that game. Maru wasn't able to comeback, but that doesnt mean comebacks in SC2 are impossible
My point was that on a standard map with standard layout and without the person in advantage doing any mistakes it's impossible. This was Maru being on a good map and Neeb doing some slight mistakes which allowed Maru to get back. The best example is actually the WCS Mvp game
What does "making a mistake" even mean? SC2 is such a demanding game that nobody ever plays it perfectly. Players can constantly push the limits though. If a player has an advantage/big lead, and the other player out macros and or out micros him (or pursues a certain strategy, or takes a high risk high reward route) and makes a comeback to win it, does it mean that the player who lost the lead made a mistake? This is the idea of "real time" in the strategy. This is not chess.
Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!" 
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