They have already planned the live streams: Group A:
It has a timer and I have there a "create reminder" button but I don't know what it does because I'm not logged into my Google/YT account. + Show Spoiler +
Well we all know why Maru picked Armani like....now if INnoVation sucks at TvP still then Maru should 4-0 this group, however if INnoVation has figured something out in TvP then Maru might find himself in second place.
On April 29 2019 18:57 Pandemona wrote: Well we all know why Maru picked Armani like....now if INnoVation sucks at TvP still then Maru should 4-0 this group, however if INnoVation has figured something out in TvP then Maru might find himself in second place.
Does the 2nd place change something for the group selection? He still has the swaps, doesn't he?
That was easy for Maru. Armani had some good moves like catching those tanks and getting a ling run by into the natural. Seemed for naught though. Maru just walked over him with his push.
On April 29 2019 18:57 Pandemona wrote: Well we all know why Maru picked Armani like....now if INnoVation sucks at TvP still then Maru should 4-0 this group, however if INnoVation has figured something out in TvP then Maru might find himself in second place.
Does the 2nd place change something for the group selection? He still has the swaps, doesn't he?
True, i don't think it would because he will still be number 1 seed so he would get swaps like you say.
On April 29 2019 19:17 Penev wrote: Innovation doesn't seem to care
This bo3 will be irrelevant given these two are looking like the decider match anyway.
I see, Inno wants the curse to be on his side
In a scenario where you fully believe you'll get the rematch regardless of who wins, it makes sense to not show your best builds in the opening match and try to figure out how your opponent is playing.
Although INno can beat Maru so there's no reason for him to believe that
On April 29 2019 19:17 Penev wrote: Innovation doesn't seem to care
This bo3 will be irrelevant given these two are looking like the decider match anyway.
I see, Inno wants the curse to be on his side
In a scenario where you fully believe you'll get the rematch regardless of who wins, it makes sense to not show your best builds in the opening match and try to figure out how your opponent is playing.
Although INno can beat Maru so there's no reason for him to believe that
Or Inno just didn't prepare properly and is going to die to patience twice in one day
the balance whine after the 2 rax from Maru was hillarious, armani pulled 10 drones and did nothing with them for a whole minute, he was pretty much dead even if Maru didnt much after that.
Patience is crazy, Maru just picked up the mines that would've blown up all his adepts at the wall and he would've insta lost the game lol. Always entertaining games from him.
I think Patience just came prepared better. Knows the meta and how his opponents usually play. He did really well to win even after those mines killed a bunch of probes earlier on.
On April 29 2019 19:51 NoS-Craig wrote: I think Patience just came prepared better. Knows the meta and how his opponents usually play. He did really well to win even after those mines killed a bunch of probes earlier on.
He would have suicided all his adepts into Maru's setup then Maru got greedy and lifted the mines a second before the attack started.
I think patience has some sort of internal random number generator that goes off every minute or so that he must respect and this is how we end up with these builds.
On April 29 2019 19:50 deacon.frost wrote: Aaand it's 1:0 for Patience.
Edit> and that's why eveyrone was so afraid of Patience in the preview Thread
i'm eating my words bigtime
Patience is worse player than both Maru and Innovation. VERY worse. But he's Protoss and he has some killer builds/instincts.
Killer instinct =/= doing random aggressive shit that sometimes works and sometimes absolutely fails
Well if his builds fail he looks like an idiot, but generally he has some weird builds that can kill.
Edit> What I meant by the instinct - it's not that thing per se. But when Patence goes for the kill he goes for the kill. He f2s his army ang GOES. He's not liek one of those "should I move? or not? Return? Not? what?", he's decisive in this, very.
On April 29 2019 19:57 Doko wrote: I think patience has some sort of internal random number generator that goes off every minute or so that he must respect and this is how we end up with these builds.
Plausible. It's not completely random though; It has landed on "blink all stalkers forward" too often for that.
On April 29 2019 19:50 deacon.frost wrote: Aaand it's 1:0 for Patience.
Edit> and that's why eveyrone was so afraid of Patience in the preview Thread
i'm eating my words bigtime
Patience is worse player than both Maru and Innovation. VERY worse. But he's Protoss and he has some killer builds/instincts.
i just always remember him getting stomped by the terran horsemen/gumiho lately
That's true, but Protoss has some quite strong timings you can abuse and Patience is like a big random number generator throwing builds left and right, prepare against this
pretty sad first series from inno, patience with two strats that reeked of "I hooooope it woooooorks" and inno just responding extremely slowly to everything eeeh
Patience played that very nicely, he won by knowing how to abuse Protoss bullshit while also microing it well. Also he didn't forget to macro and defend, nice games by him.
the great sc2 debate: what's more important, doing flashy mouseclick tornadoes that look cool or causing the other guy to quit the game? more on this at 11
On April 29 2019 20:17 HolydaKing wrote: Patience played that very nicely, he won by knowing how to abuse Protoss bullshit while also microing it well. Also he didn't forget to macro and defend, nice games by him.
I'd say it he won by having better game plan, great harass and outmicroing his opponent.
On April 29 2019 20:18 brickrd wrote: the great sc2 debate: what's more important, doing flashy mouseclick tornadoes that look cool or causing the other guy to quit the game? more on this at 11
I think Blizzard got the "making people quit the game" thing figured out really nicely. Bonjwa?
On April 29 2019 20:12 agsub wrote: Infuriating to watch such protoss nonsense
just stop
patience micro'd better than classic did against maru
Patience doesn't micro well, he yolo's well
edit: There's a reason Patience blinks are a thing XD
I actually found this series tons of fun to watch.
I know patience usually doesnt micro too well
I am talking about just this series. he was on fire with his micro and decision making
I feel like he's always had good micro, at least better than people give him credit for. But I think calling his micro this series 'on fire' is a huge stretch. He consistently lost considerably more probes than he needed to to mine drops, overextended with gateway units, lost an oracle to a mine when he was actively microing it, ect. Really what was impressive here was his relentless pressure allowing him to capitalize on every mistake Maru made. He took advantage of the huge advantage Protoss has in the earlier stages of the game before stim + medivac are done.
On April 29 2019 20:18 brickrd wrote: the great sc2 debate: what's more important, doing flashy mouseclick tornadoes that look cool or causing the other guy to quit the game? more on this at 11
I think Blizzard got the "making people quit the game" thing figured out really nicely. Bonjwa?
i like the game i'm spending my time watching! it's a good game and i have fun watching and playing it
On April 29 2019 20:19 sudete wrote: So glad to see patience playing well. It makes me a bit hopeful that we'll see his best starcraft this year
Nah you don't get Patience, he probably gonna get bop by Keen next round.
And it won't even be a throw, it'll be some really poorly executed 3 gate blink into getting stomped by a 2 base tank push. But you know, we could always imagine a world where patience is consistent... or not
I want those noise cancelling headset which removes all the high volume noises like good screams or a fire track The current I am using cannot surpress those
On April 29 2019 20:12 agsub wrote: Infuriating to watch such protoss nonsense
just stop
patience micro'd better than classic did against maru
I dont think it was really a question of micro, I think that Patience really caught them both off guard, Maru less so than Inno, but it felt like Maru's play strongly lacked respect, I feel like he never loses game three if he just plays defensively instead of trying to harass someone 4gating him. Patience's play really reminded of prime MC, very strong execution of cheesy-ish strats, but not much more than that.
On April 29 2019 20:12 agsub wrote: Infuriating to watch such protoss nonsense
just stop
patience micro'd better than classic did against maru
Patience doesn't micro well, he yolo's well
edit: There's a reason Patience blinks are a thing XD
I actually found this series tons of fun to watch.
I know patience usually doesnt micro too well
I am talking about just this series. he was on fire with his micro and decision making
I feel like he's always had good micro, at least better than people give him credit for. But I think calling his micro this series 'on fire' is a huge stretch. He consistently lost considerably more probes than he needed to to mine drops, overextended with gateway units, lost an oracle to a mine when he was actively microing it, ect. Really what was impressive here was his relentless pressure allowing him to capitalize on every mistake Maru made. He took advantage of the huge advantage Protoss has in the earlier stages of the game before stim + medivac are done.
well yea, his relentless pressure was only possible because of his excellent micro.
Controlling that many adepts in multiple groups in early pressure situation like Patience did is difficult micro. Patient was almost flawless with it and overwhelmed Maru. Of course stalkers have to be microed. His splits against the mines were excellent. Patience couldve lost so much during his pushes but he had immaculate control as well as decision making
his micro only suffered when the game went back to a more standard kind of battle in game 2. he seemed really comfortable with the adept and stalker offensive
On April 29 2019 20:12 agsub wrote: Infuriating to watch such protoss nonsense
just stop
patience micro'd better than classic did against maru
Patience doesn't micro well, he yolo's well
edit: There's a reason Patience blinks are a thing XD
I actually found this series tons of fun to watch.
I know patience usually doesnt micro too well
I am talking about just this series. he was on fire with his micro and decision making
I feel like he's always had good micro, at least better than people give him credit for. But I think calling his micro this series 'on fire' is a huge stretch. He consistently lost considerably more probes than he needed to to mine drops, overextended with gateway units, lost an oracle to a mine when he was actively microing it, ect. Really what was impressive here was his relentless pressure allowing him to capitalize on every mistake Maru made. He took advantage of the huge advantage Protoss has in the earlier stages of the game before stim + medivac are done.
well yea, his relentless pressure was only possible because of his excellent micro.
Controlling that many adepts in multiple groups in early pressure situation like Patience did is difficult micro. Patient was almost flawless with it and overwhelmed Maru. Of course stalkers have to be microed. His splits against the mines were excellent. Patience couldve lost so much during his pushes but he had immaculate control as well as decision making
his micro only suffered when the game went back to a more standard kind of battle in game 2. he seemed really comfortable with the adept and stalker offensive
Please stop, re-view the games later and check again. He selected good builds and executed them properly, but he wasn't microing that well you are making him.
What's really frustrating is Maru's lack of adaptability sometimes, his play reaches almost mkp levels of dumbness when he just keeps doing what he set out to do at first when he should adapt to clearly all-in moves from his opponents, shows the lack of smart you could see in Mvp's play or Flash's in bw.
On April 29 2019 20:39 IshinShishi wrote: What's really frustrating is Maru's lack of adaptability sometimes, his play reaches almost mkp levels of dumbness when he just keeps doing what he set out to do at first when he should adapt to clearly all-in moves from his opponents, shows the lack of smart you could see in Mvp's play or Flash's in bw.
Against shit opponents yes. But he's been incredibly adaptable and innovative in the ro8 onwards. His matches against Dark, Rogue, Classic, Dear etc in playoffs have been exceptional.
On April 29 2019 20:39 IshinShishi wrote: What's really frustrating is Maru's lack of adaptability sometimes, his play reaches almost mkp levels of dumbness when he just keeps doing what he set out to do at first when he should adapt to clearly all-in moves from his opponents, shows the lack of smart you could see in Mvp's play or Flash's in bw.
More like Parting IMO. I still remember him trying to make the blink work against Inno when all he had to do is to move on and play a standard game and win, but no, let's blink into loss ><
the lurker play set armani back a lot, he probably could've gotten 3/3 before the final fight and even ultras, I can appreciate wonky plays tho, so I guess that was cool.
cant help but feel like they should've both practiced better vs protoss and it wouldnt have come down to this, armani was a non-factor from the start and inno looked like he had played more league of legends than tvp coming up to today..
On April 29 2019 20:51 IshinShishi wrote: the lurker play set armani back a lot, he probably could've gotten 3/3 before the final fight and even ultras, I can appreciate wonky plays tho, so I guess that was cool.
i think 3/3 was actually greedy after dumping gas in lurkers and taking a fight. he needed a round of ling bane to make it to brood lords, and the spines were pretty stupid (what do spines do below a ramp against tanks?)
he was in a decent enough spot that i think it was possible to take a fight with 2/2 ling bane hydra viper and get to broods. doesn't mean he would win but he might not die
On April 29 2019 20:12 agsub wrote: Infuriating to watch such protoss nonsense
just stop
patience micro'd better than classic did against maru
Patience doesn't micro well, he yolo's well
edit: There's a reason Patience blinks are a thing XD
I actually found this series tons of fun to watch.
I know patience usually doesnt micro too well
I am talking about just this series. he was on fire with his micro and decision making
I feel like he's always had good micro, at least better than people give him credit for. But I think calling his micro this series 'on fire' is a huge stretch. He consistently lost considerably more probes than he needed to to mine drops, overextended with gateway units, lost an oracle to a mine when he was actively microing it, ect. Really what was impressive here was his relentless pressure allowing him to capitalize on every mistake Maru made. He took advantage of the huge advantage Protoss has in the earlier stages of the game before stim + medivac are done.
well yea, his relentless pressure was only possible because of his excellent micro.
Controlling that many adepts in multiple groups in early pressure situation like Patience did is difficult micro. Patient was almost flawless with it and overwhelmed Maru. Of course stalkers have to be microed. His splits against the mines were excellent. Patience couldve lost so much during his pushes but he had immaculate control as well as decision making
his micro only suffered when the game went back to a more standard kind of battle in game 2. he seemed really comfortable with the adept and stalker offensive
Please stop, re-view the games later and check again. He selected good builds and executed them properly, but he wasn't microing that well you are making him.
there was a point in the game where he shaded a clump of 12 battered adepts on top of 3 widow mines and only lost 4. he couldve lost so many adepts at various points in the series but he didnt because of his control
his adept control and stalker micro were excellent. it's not everyday you see a protoss player make maru submit with early to mid game aggression.
On April 29 2019 20:12 agsub wrote: Infuriating to watch such protoss nonsense
just stop
patience micro'd better than classic did against maru
Patience doesn't micro well, he yolo's well
edit: There's a reason Patience blinks are a thing XD
I actually found this series tons of fun to watch.
I know patience usually doesnt micro too well
I am talking about just this series. he was on fire with his micro and decision making
I feel like he's always had good micro, at least better than people give him credit for. But I think calling his micro this series 'on fire' is a huge stretch. He consistently lost considerably more probes than he needed to to mine drops, overextended with gateway units, lost an oracle to a mine when he was actively microing it, ect. Really what was impressive here was his relentless pressure allowing him to capitalize on every mistake Maru made. He took advantage of the huge advantage Protoss has in the earlier stages of the game before stim + medivac are done.
well yea, his relentless pressure was only possible because of his excellent micro.
Controlling that many adepts in multiple groups in early pressure situation like Patience did is difficult micro. Patient was almost flawless with it and overwhelmed Maru. Of course stalkers have to be microed. His splits against the mines were excellent. Patience couldve lost so much during his pushes but he had immaculate control as well as decision making
his micro only suffered when the game went back to a more standard kind of battle in game 2. he seemed really comfortable with the adept and stalker offensive
Please stop, re-view the games later and check again. He selected good builds and executed them properly, but he wasn't microing that well you are making him.
there was a point in the game where he shaded a clump of 12 battered adepts on top of 3 widow mines and only lost 4. he couldve lost so many adepts at various points in the series but he didnt because of his control
his adept control and stalker micro were excellent. it's not everyday you see a protoss player make maru submit with early to mid game aggression.
I remember that, thinking "dude, don't do this, all adepts will die" and then he proceeds to kill Maru O.O
Maru lost this when he STOPPED making Vikings man, just what the fuck?! he won the last game for the same reason, air superiority is EVERYTHING in TvT and he just fucking stopped making Vikings. Innovation pushed him COMPLETELY across the map with a single fucking Liberator.
Full Prime Terran man. He just completely threw that game.
I dont understand why maru did this jjakji cosplay and stopped making scvs despite getting a much quicker third, Inno had such better production with superior economy that it didn't matter how well Maru maneuvered, the relentless push was too much
No fuck that. Innovation didn't win that anywhere near as much as Maru lost that. I cannot believe he completely and stubbornly just GAVE Innovation complete air dominance. Never tried to contest it.
I dont understand what the fuck was going through his mind.
On April 29 2019 21:48 Vindicare605 wrote: Maru lost this when he STOPPED making Vikings man, just what the fuck?! he won the last game for the same reason, air superiority is EVERYTHING in TvT and he just fucking stopped making Vikings. Innovation pushed him COMPLETELY across the map with a single fucking Liberator.
Full Prime Terran man. He just completely threw that game.
He lost the game when he was behind in upgrades, behind in production and behind in SCVs and that happened way earlier than this.
On April 29 2019 21:49 Vindicare605 wrote: No fuck that. Innovation didn't win that anywhere near as much as Maru lost that. I cannot believe he completely and stubbornly just GAVE Innovation complete air dominance. Never tried to contest it.
I dont understand what the fuck was going through his mind.
He didnt have enough eco to compete, he had less scvs because he stopped making them for at least 3 cycles in the early game, probably even 4 cycles.
Inno got outclassed in army control and maneuvers, Maru held on in an incredibly shitty position and almost came back when any other terran would've just lost, but his macro decisions or lack there of cost him too much.
I can't believe maru managed to throw game 3 so hard. It was painful to watch him being chased for like 3 minutes in the middle of map without a viking, cyclone or thor in the production queue to make his medvac count stay relevant.
On April 29 2019 21:51 Doko wrote: I can't believe maru managed to throw game 3 so hard. It was painful to watch him being chased for like 3 minutes in the middle of map without a viking, cyclone or thor in the production queue to make his medvac count stay relevant.
He couldn't build any of these because he needed superior siege tank numbers And he didn't have the eco to afford anti air. It wasn't a throw.
On April 29 2019 21:48 Vindicare605 wrote: Maru lost this when he STOPPED making Vikings man, just what the fuck?! he won the last game for the same reason, air superiority is EVERYTHING in TvT and he just fucking stopped making Vikings. Innovation pushed him COMPLETELY across the map with a single fucking Liberator.
Full Prime Terran man. He just completely threw that game.
He lost the game when he was behind in upgrades, behind in production and behind in SCVs and that happened way earlier than this.
He had a 40 supply lead after the first battle at Inno's 4th and a superior position. Inno's SCV lead meant nothing when he couldn't mine at his third.
Maru had a completely perfect position to just win that game, but a SINGLE Liberator pushed him completely back across the map. It started with just 2 Vikings and a Liberator and Maru just DIDNT make any Vikings to fight back. He continued to make fucking MEDIVACS.
Maru had the economy. Inno wasn't mining at his third. He had that game. He just stopped making Vikings.
On April 29 2019 19:48 Fango wrote: If Maru didn't try to lift the mines at the natural just before the attack hit they would have gone of on the adept clump and he holds easy.
And lifting those mines just cost Maru his 5th championship
Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
On April 29 2019 21:48 Vindicare605 wrote: Maru lost this when he STOPPED making Vikings man, just what the fuck?! he won the last game for the same reason, air superiority is EVERYTHING in TvT and he just fucking stopped making Vikings. Innovation pushed him COMPLETELY across the map with a single fucking Liberator.
Full Prime Terran man. He just completely threw that game.
He lost the game when he was behind in upgrades, behind in production and behind in SCVs and that happened way earlier than this.
He had a 40 supply lead after the first battle at Inno's 4th and a superior position. Inno's SCV lead meant nothing when he couldn't mine at his third.
Maru had a completely perfect position to just win that game, but a SINGLE Liberator pushed him completely back across the map. It started with just 2 Vikings and a Liberator and Maru just DIDNT make any Vikings to fight back. He continued to make fucking MEDIVACS.
Maru had the economy. Inno wasn't mining at his third. He had that game. He just stopped making Vikings.
I'm pretty sure that at that point Inno had already better numbers. Maru bet on the push, that didn't happen and from that point onwards he was dead. Just his abilities kept him longer in the game as Inno isn't as good as he used to be.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
There's no disrespect, Patience is the worse player of these two and in a longer series he would lose every time. This was just his lucky BO3. Or you think it was an accident Patience get 2:0 in the Chinese league from Maru? We can continue like that, Patience isn't a good player in the terms the top players are, but can have good builds to kill somebody.
On April 29 2019 21:48 Vindicare605 wrote: Maru lost this when he STOPPED making Vikings man, just what the fuck?! he won the last game for the same reason, air superiority is EVERYTHING in TvT and he just fucking stopped making Vikings. Innovation pushed him COMPLETELY across the map with a single fucking Liberator.
Full Prime Terran man. He just completely threw that game.
He lost the game when he was behind in upgrades, behind in production and behind in SCVs and that happened way earlier than this.
He had a 40 supply lead after the first battle at Inno's 4th and a superior position. Inno's SCV lead meant nothing when he couldn't mine at his third.
Maru had a completely perfect position to just win that game, but a SINGLE Liberator pushed him completely back across the map. It started with just 2 Vikings and a Liberator and Maru just DIDNT make any Vikings to fight back. He continued to make fucking MEDIVACS.
Maru had the economy. Inno wasn't mining at his third. He had that game. He just stopped making Vikings.
He didn't have the eco, go watch it again, Inno had more income for 10+ minutes, Maru's fast 3ccs were absolute shite because everything else was slower (stim and upgrades) and he just didnt make scvs, how does that make any sense?
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
There's no disrespect in any of those posts, you're just interpreting it that way.
On April 29 2019 21:48 Vindicare605 wrote: Maru lost this when he STOPPED making Vikings man, just what the fuck?! he won the last game for the same reason, air superiority is EVERYTHING in TvT and he just fucking stopped making Vikings. Innovation pushed him COMPLETELY across the map with a single fucking Liberator.
Full Prime Terran man. He just completely threw that game.
He lost the game when he was behind in upgrades, behind in production and behind in SCVs and that happened way earlier than this.
He had a 40 supply lead after the first battle at Inno's 4th and a superior position. Inno's SCV lead meant nothing when he couldn't mine at his third.
Maru had a completely perfect position to just win that game, but a SINGLE Liberator pushed him completely back across the map. It started with just 2 Vikings and a Liberator and Maru just DIDNT make any Vikings to fight back. He continued to make fucking MEDIVACS.
Maru had the economy. Inno wasn't mining at his third. He had that game. He just stopped making Vikings.
He didn't have the eco, go watch it again, Inno had more income for 10+ minutes, Maru's fast 3ccs were absolute shite because everything else was slower (stim and upgrades) and he just didnt make scvs, how does that make any sense?
Once INno scouted the 3CC Maru delayed everything to get more units expecting a 2 base push
I'm not one to balance whine and I play Protoss but I am really starting to feel that Protoss is a bit too strong in PvT. Like Patience is obviously a good player but he is not a 2-0 Bop one of the best Terrans in the world then beat the Best terran in the world good.
On April 29 2019 21:48 Vindicare605 wrote: Maru lost this when he STOPPED making Vikings man, just what the fuck?! he won the last game for the same reason, air superiority is EVERYTHING in TvT and he just fucking stopped making Vikings. Innovation pushed him COMPLETELY across the map with a single fucking Liberator.
Full Prime Terran man. He just completely threw that game.
He lost the game when he was behind in upgrades, behind in production and behind in SCVs and that happened way earlier than this.
He had a 40 supply lead after the first battle at Inno's 4th and a superior position. Inno's SCV lead meant nothing when he couldn't mine at his third.
Maru had a completely perfect position to just win that game, but a SINGLE Liberator pushed him completely back across the map. It started with just 2 Vikings and a Liberator and Maru just DIDNT make any Vikings to fight back. He continued to make fucking MEDIVACS.
Maru had the economy. Inno wasn't mining at his third. He had that game. He just stopped making Vikings.
He didn't have the eco, go watch it again, Inno had more income for 10+ minutes, Maru's fast 3ccs were absolute shite because everything else was slower (stim and upgrades) and he just didnt make scvs, how does that make any sense?
Bro, he was MAKING Medivacs when the Liberator was killing his tanks. If he could afford 2 Medivacs He could afford 2 Vikings.
You go back and watch it. Economy wasn't the issue, the choice of Starport production was.
He had 3 more Medivacs than Innovation already at that point and he was MAKING more.
My eyes were glued to the production tab that entire time that Innovation was pushing him back. If that ONE Liberator had died, Innovation would have been unable to advance any further without another one. His air superiority won him the battle despite having an inferior ground force.
That is BASIC TvT 101. Air Superiority is everything. Air Superiority is how Maru won Game 2. He either just didn't recognize it in game 3, or was too tilted to care. He had the money, he just didn't react to it.
On April 29 2019 21:48 Vindicare605 wrote: Maru lost this when he STOPPED making Vikings man, just what the fuck?! he won the last game for the same reason, air superiority is EVERYTHING in TvT and he just fucking stopped making Vikings. Innovation pushed him COMPLETELY across the map with a single fucking Liberator.
Full Prime Terran man. He just completely threw that game.
He lost the game when he was behind in upgrades, behind in production and behind in SCVs and that happened way earlier than this.
He had a 40 supply lead after the first battle at Inno's 4th and a superior position. Inno's SCV lead meant nothing when he couldn't mine at his third.
Maru had a completely perfect position to just win that game, but a SINGLE Liberator pushed him completely back across the map. It started with just 2 Vikings and a Liberator and Maru just DIDNT make any Vikings to fight back. He continued to make fucking MEDIVACS.
Maru had the economy. Inno wasn't mining at his third. He had that game. He just stopped making Vikings.
He didn't have the eco, go watch it again, Inno had more income for 10+ minutes, Maru's fast 3ccs were absolute shite because everything else was slower (stim and upgrades) and he just didnt make scvs, how does that make any sense?
Once INno scouted the 3CC Maru delayed everything to get more units expecting a 2 base push
While Inno got the lead with a push that didn't happen.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
I'm sure it's not disrespectful at all to consider patience getting absolutely lucky, and this having nothing to do with the fact that he prepared builds for a preparation-based tournament like the GSL that everyone gets excited over. Adept-ing well to your opponent is not simply a matter of luck. To say that maru doesn't respect him at all, you must have some evidence for it.
On April 29 2019 21:56 Syn Harvest wrote: I'm not one to balance whine and I play Protoss but I am really starting to feel that Protoss is a bit too strong in PvT. Like Patience is obviously a good player but he is not a 2-0 Bop one of the best Terrans in the world then beat the Best terran in the world good.
Patience also has just bopped herO 3-0in ST in PvP and had unarguably the closest series vs Classic out of all ST contenders.
On April 29 2019 21:56 Syn Harvest wrote: I'm not one to balance whine and I play Protoss but I am really starting to feel that Protoss is a bit too strong in PvT. Like Patience is obviously a good player but he is not a 2-0 Bop one of the best Terrans in the world then beat the Best terran in the world good.
It's not the first time he did something like this, he's just that unpredictable
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
I'm sure it's not disrespectful at all to consider patience getting absolutely lucky, and this having nothing to do with the fact that he prepared builds for a preparation-based tournament like the GSL that everyone gets excited over. Adept-ing well to your opponent is not simply a matter of luck. To say that maru doesn't respect him at all, you must have some evidence for it.
Oh FFS Patience is the worse player, he got BO wins and tell me he wasn't lucky when he shade in just as Inno unsieges... how else do you want to define luck? He didn't see the unsiege so it wasn't a good move, he didn't know, he just YOLO and it worked.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
On April 29 2019 21:48 Vindicare605 wrote: Maru lost this when he STOPPED making Vikings man, just what the fuck?! he won the last game for the same reason, air superiority is EVERYTHING in TvT and he just fucking stopped making Vikings. Innovation pushed him COMPLETELY across the map with a single fucking Liberator.
Full Prime Terran man. He just completely threw that game.
He lost the game when he was behind in upgrades, behind in production and behind in SCVs and that happened way earlier than this.
He had a 40 supply lead after the first battle at Inno's 4th and a superior position. Inno's SCV lead meant nothing when he couldn't mine at his third.
Maru had a completely perfect position to just win that game, but a SINGLE Liberator pushed him completely back across the map. It started with just 2 Vikings and a Liberator and Maru just DIDNT make any Vikings to fight back. He continued to make fucking MEDIVACS.
Maru had the economy. Inno wasn't mining at his third. He had that game. He just stopped making Vikings.
He didn't have the eco, go watch it again, Inno had more income for 10+ minutes, Maru's fast 3ccs were absolute shite because everything else was slower (stim and upgrades) and he just didnt make scvs, how does that make any sense?
Bro, he was MAKING Medivacs when the Liberator was killing his tanks. If he could afford 2 Medivacs He could afford 2 Vikings.
You go back and watch it. Economy wasn't the issue, the choice of Starport production was.
He had 3 more Medivacs than Innovation already at that point and he was MAKING more.
My eyes were glued to the production tab that entire time that Innovation was pushing him back.
Then inno outplayed him in those two areas, he was smarter than Maru because he didn't do what Maru expected him to do (a 2 base push in response to the fast 3ccs) and he chose the right units to build, a deserved albeit sad loss it is then.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
I'm sure it's not disrespectful at all to consider patience getting absolutely lucky, and this having nothing to do with the fact that he prepared builds for a preparation-based tournament like the GSL that everyone gets excited over. Adept-ing well to your opponent is not simply a matter of luck. To say that maru doesn't respect him at all, you must have some evidence for it.
Put it this way, if this was further into the season and he was playing Classic/Dear/sOs/Stats etc instead of Patience, I don't think Maru loses.
He literally had a perfect setup that would have won him the game and then said fuck it lets take all my widow mines and go for a drop.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
On April 29 2019 21:48 Vindicare605 wrote: Maru lost this when he STOPPED making Vikings man, just what the fuck?! he won the last game for the same reason, air superiority is EVERYTHING in TvT and he just fucking stopped making Vikings. Innovation pushed him COMPLETELY across the map with a single fucking Liberator.
Full Prime Terran man. He just completely threw that game.
He lost the game when he was behind in upgrades, behind in production and behind in SCVs and that happened way earlier than this.
He had a 40 supply lead after the first battle at Inno's 4th and a superior position. Inno's SCV lead meant nothing when he couldn't mine at his third.
Maru had a completely perfect position to just win that game, but a SINGLE Liberator pushed him completely back across the map. It started with just 2 Vikings and a Liberator and Maru just DIDNT make any Vikings to fight back. He continued to make fucking MEDIVACS.
Maru had the economy. Inno wasn't mining at his third. He had that game. He just stopped making Vikings.
He didn't have the eco, go watch it again, Inno had more income for 10+ minutes, Maru's fast 3ccs were absolute shite because everything else was slower (stim and upgrades) and he just didnt make scvs, how does that make any sense?
Bro, he was MAKING Medivacs when the Liberator was killing his tanks. If he could afford 2 Medivacs He could afford 2 Vikings.
You go back and watch it. Economy wasn't the issue, the choice of Starport production was.
He had 3 more Medivacs than Innovation already at that point and he was MAKING more.
My eyes were glued to the production tab that entire time that Innovation was pushing him back.
Then inno outplayed him in those two areas, he was smarter than Maru because he didn't do what Maru expected him to do (a 2 base push in response to the fast 3ccs) and he chose the right units to build, a deserved albeit sad loss it is then.
If Maru doesn't get pushed back to his mining bases, Inno's SCV lead doesn't matter because Maru had just as many bases at that point. Inno's SCV and Upgrade lead didn't matter when Maru won the first major battle at Inno's 3rd. And Maru's 3-3 was started earlier than Inno's was
The lead that Inno gained with that 2 base push bluff is being massively overstated in this thread. Sure it was definitely an obvious thing that happened, but Maru made a MUCH bigger mistake later, Maru threw the game. If he had just stopped that one push back across the map, the game stabilizes and they are even. Maru let a small bleeding wound fester into a much bigger problem.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
You were not the only one, it's funny how some people were denying Patience being this good and now they're making him godlike xD
On April 24 2019 03:02 BerserkSword wrote: are people trolling about patience?
Maru and Inno should have this easily
There's one player I will never count out for an upset, and it's Patience. Calling it now, he advances in first and then Maru loses to Inno in the decider.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Several people called that group with Patience will be hard to pull through.
On April 29 2019 21:53 NoS-Craig wrote: I got back into sc2 about 3-4 months ago. I had no idea how much SC2 got posters angry.
Heh man, the rage and saltiness is real in Sc2's forum if you compare it with BW's.
I remember how kindly people reacted to the latest defeats Serral had to suffer, if Serral's fan were as bad as they like to depict them I should be shouting how Maru sucks and is washed up right now; it would be, however, a blatant lie the way those posts were.
Patience studied Maru deeply while he underestimated our Protoss friend like he always does, ending up dying to tailored builds and nice execution . Inno(almost) always had an edge over Maru in TvT and the series more or less played out as expected; it has to be said he impartially administrates justice, he took from Serral before and now he takes from Maru as well.
Maru is out after one year and half, his streak was becoming boring; I hope this season will belong to some of the great names who are still missing a Code S(all of the Zerg, TY, some of the Protoss).
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Several people called that group with Patience will be hard to pull through.
Few said that Maru just didn't respect their opponent and would've won if he had tried
Edit: and here's the token Xainon post somehow twisting another absolutely not Serral-related event to mention the player. Who do I call to get my bingo checked?
I feel like Maru wins despite misreading and responding in a completely crazy way to a lot of strategies and moves, he is a mechanical god, not an rts master mind. I used to think that Maru didn't respect some players too, but he just plays in a weird way and does his thing and makes it work.
On April 29 2019 21:53 NoS-Craig wrote: I got back into sc2 about 3-4 months ago. I had no idea how much SC2 got posters angry.
Heh man, the rage and saltiness is real in Sc2's forum if you compare it with BW's.
I remember how kindly people reacted to the latest defeats Serral had to suffer, if Serral's fan were as bad as they like to depict them I should be shouting how Maru sucks and is washed up right now; it would be, however, a blatant lie the way those posts were.
Patience studied Maru deeply while he underestimated our Protoss friend like he always does, ending up dying to tailored builds and nice execution . Inno(almost) always had an edge over Maru in TvT and the series more or less played out as expected; it has to be said he impartially administrates justice, he took from Serral before and now he takes from Maru as well.
Maru is out after one year and half, his streak was becoming boring; I hope this season will belong to some of the great names who are still missing a Code S(all of the Zerg, TY, some of the Protoss).
Oh bullshit. Check more games of Patience and you realize he goes random builds every time and when it works it looks really awesome. Just check more of his games, he's not that trash some people think and can pull surprise builds out of his protoss bag of tricks.
He didn't study anything otherwise he wouldn't have lost in previous games(he was hiding builds, I know, but not using anything from his studies and losing hilariously...? )
On April 29 2019 21:53 NoS-Craig wrote: I got back into sc2 about 3-4 months ago. I had no idea how much SC2 got posters angry.
Maru is out after one year and half, his streak was becoming boring; I hope this season will belong to some of the great names who are still missing a Code S(all of the Zerg, TY, some of the Protoss).
That'd be nice, but it's probably going to be another PvP fest like Super Tournament. ZvP in Korea has looked pretty hopeless all year.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Several people called that group with Patience will be hard to pull through.
Few said that Maru just didn't respect their opponent and would've won if he had tried
Edit: and here's the token Xainon post somehow twisting another absolutely not Serral-related event to mention the player. Who do I call to get my bingo checked?
I just need the ignore function and I will be happy. Let's take a thread not about Serral to make it into Serral talk... like dafuq?
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
On April 29 2019 22:11 sudete wrote: Anyway, I'm sure maru will do a lot better in the next code S. Hopefully inno gives us some terran representation in the later stages
Considering how he has looked vs Protoss all year long, I have very strong doubts.
Inno's TvZ and TvT are in top form, but he has not looked like he can handle any Protoss at all, even when I catch his streams he just gets annihilated by Protoss constantly.
Maybe with some good bracket luck he can make Ro8, but he's gonna have to show a resurgent form in TvP to stand a chance of getting to the Ro4, since Protoss seems to be very favored in PvZ in Korea.
On April 29 2019 22:12 Pandemona wrote: So crazy Maru is goat in TvZ and TvP but his TvT is so questionable throughout his career xD
I think he just loses patients with it, nice pun
He got one of his title by beating the Peak Innovation in 2013 in one of the shortest series He was better in HotS TvT than he's in LotV TvT(the pre-game stats showed that pretty clearly, because they were almost equal while Inno leading 9-4 in LotV games)
On April 29 2019 22:14 Penev wrote: So who wins this GSL now?
Protoss. Let's see who get into RO8 but if Stats found his old mojo, I would bet on him. Getting another 2nd place
On April 29 2019 22:12 Pandemona wrote: So crazy Maru is goat in TvZ and TvP but his TvT is so questionable throughout his career xD
I think he just loses patients with it, nice pun
I dont know about that, I think it's just been more of a rock paper scissors thing in TvT among the horsemen, with Gumiho being the dark horse that shakes it up.
On April 29 2019 22:11 sudete wrote: Anyway, I'm sure maru will do a lot better in the next code S. Hopefully inno gives us some terran representation in the later stages
Considering how he has looked vs Protoss all year long, I have very strong doubts.
Inno's TvZ and TvT are in top form, but he has not looked like he can handle any Protoss at all, even when I catch his streams he just gets annihilated by Protoss constantly.
Maybe with some good bracket luck he can make Ro8, but he's gonna have to show a resurgent form in TvP to stand a chance of getting to the Ro4, since Protoss seems to be very favored in PvZ in Korea.
I think the chances of IEM/ST repeating are very high.
On April 29 2019 22:15 ShAd_1337 wrote: alive game! dark gonna win this season!
He won't. Korean Zergs are generally in a bad state and Korean Protosses seem to know how to ZvP. Unless some balance update comes in.
Which probably won't happen because it would just guarantee a massive ZvZ fest in the foreign scene (not that it isn't one already). Korean Zergs are feeling the pain that foreign Terrans have been feeling since.... always.
On April 29 2019 21:53 NoS-Craig wrote: I got back into sc2 about 3-4 months ago. I had no idea how much SC2 got posters angry.
Heh man, the rage and saltiness is real in Sc2's forum if you compare it with BW's.
I remember how kindly people reacted to the latest defeats Serral had to suffer, if Serral's fan were as bad as they like to depict them I should be shouting how Maru sucks and is washed up right now; it would be, however, a blatant lie the way those posts were.
Patience studied Maru deeply while he underestimated our Protoss friend like he always does, ending up dying to tailored builds and nice execution . Inno(almost) always had an edge over Maru in TvT and the series more or less played out as expected; it has to be said he impartially administrates justice, he took from Serral before and now he takes from Maru as well.
Maru is out after one year and half, his streak was becoming boring; I hope this season will belong to some of the great names who are still missing a Code S(all of the Zerg, TY, some of the Protoss).
Oh bullshit. Check more games of Patience and you realize he goes random builds every time and when it works it looks really awesome. Just check more of his games, he's not that trash some people think and can pull surprise builds out of his protoss bag of tricks.
He didn't study anything otherwise he wouldn't have lost in previous games(he was hiding builds, I know, but not using anything from his studies and losing hilariously...? )
Oh, I have come to greatly respect Patience as a player in 2019; I was disappointed when he qualified for IEM, but he has shown real growth as a player and he should not be underestimated. Don't be surprised if he wins something this year.
If you realize there are some builds you could use against a certain opponent I'd say it's better to use it in Code S than in the group stages of a team based tournaments, don't you think? Thus said, since I am not sure of that, Patience may have just pulled out lucky builds; they just seemed extremely effective against what Maru was doing.
The fact Maru loves to pick Patience for his Code S groups may have even lead Patience to try his hardest to defeat him, in the post game interview Patience mentioned he was someway offended by this behavior if I heard it right.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
Btw, did you guys notice the difference in respect Maru had for Inno when compared to Patience? In both games vs inno he gged out in a considerably better position than the ones he did vs Patience, it was like he believed he could beat Patience with half the supply, but not Inno.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
This hits it pretty well IMO. And is the reason why I don't consider him GOAT. It is just too niche
On April 29 2019 21:53 NoS-Craig wrote: I got back into sc2 about 3-4 months ago. I had no idea how much SC2 got posters angry.
Heh man, the rage and saltiness is real in Sc2's forum if you compare it with BW's.
I remember how kindly people reacted to the latest defeats Serral had to suffer, if Serral's fan were as bad as they like to depict them I should be shouting how Maru sucks and is washed up right now; it would be, however, a blatant lie the way those posts were.
Patience studied Maru deeply while he underestimated our Protoss friend like he always does, ending up dying to tailored builds and nice execution . Inno(almost) always had an edge over Maru in TvT and the series more or less played out as expected; it has to be said he impartially administrates justice, he took from Serral before and now he takes from Maru as well.
Maru is out after one year and half, his streak was becoming boring; I hope this season will belong to some of the great names who are still missing a Code S(all of the Zerg, TY, some of the Protoss).
Oh bullshit. Check more games of Patience and you realize he goes random builds every time and when it works it looks really awesome. Just check more of his games, he's not that trash some people think and can pull surprise builds out of his protoss bag of tricks.
He didn't study anything otherwise he wouldn't have lost in previous games(he was hiding builds, I know, but not using anything from his studies and losing hilariously...? )
Oh, I have come to greatly respect Patience as a player in 2019; I was disappointed when he qualified for IEM, but he has shown real growth as a player and he should not be underestimated. Don't be surprised if he wins something this year.
If you realize there are some builds you could use against a certain opponent I'd say it's better to use it in Code S than in the group stages of a team based tournaments, don't you think? Thus said, since I am not sure of that, Patience may have just pulled out lucky builds; they just seemed extremely effective against what Maru was doing.
The fact Maru loves to pick Patience for his Code S groups may have even lead Patience to try his hardest to defeat him, in the post game interview Patience mentioned he was someway offended by this behavior if I heard it right.
Yeah that's why he looked 2 leagues bellow. Suuuuure. He didn't do anything imposant, he had luck on his side. Patience isn't a good player, good player doesn't f2 3 warp prisms into the same location and then forgets these exist. Jeez, Patience is a strong player, people respect him, but he's not a good player. He's a good Patience and this works only for Patience.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
How can you prepare for 30141 Protoss BS builds? I mean, no offense to your analysis, Classic played a similar style so it wasn't like Maru didn't have any preparation. Mistakes happens - see MeomaikA games. He did mistakes and lost G5L trophy because of it. BO3 is still pretty volatile in SC2 considering all the proxy shenanigans that can go and how it's easy to lose in BO loss with the new economy. In the end Maru won 2018 with proxies because of this reason IMO
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
Thing is even his mechanics are worse in groups compared to playoffs. It's not like he's winning playoff matches through just preparation and build orders, although that is a big part.
The difference in skill between who he beats in playoffs and who he loses to in groups is astonishing. No one should be surprised he lost to Patience/INno when last season he almost went out to Bunny/Impact.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
He was young then. Now he has settled in his ways
Now he even uses less proxy bui ... oh, wait, wrong settling thingy, he won 3 Code S titles with proxies
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
In this situation both players can't prepare, then his mechanical prowess can and will prevail often, but what if a player can prepare for him, but he doesn't get to do the same to the extent that he needs to cover everything? That's my main point here, I think almost anyone in the top 25 can beat Maru if they play in an unorthodox way that targets his standard way of playing.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
Then again, why doesn't Maru win weekenders? He suffers from travelling? He disrespect his opponents or doesn't care about 280k tournaments? If weekenders would made of bo1 series the fact Maru was a successful ace in Proleague(and he still delivers the most recent Chinese one) would effectively counter my argument. I am not saying Jin Air is the sole reason of his success, it would be silly: his mechanics are top notch and he won Korean tournaments when KeSpa was still around.
As for Patience, we will see. Shape can look wildly different from one day to another, Sc2 is indeed a volatile game, 2018 almost made us forget it; players can as well get better, Patience seems on the rise to me.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
In this situation both players can't prepare, then his mechanical prowess can and will prevail often, but what if a player can prepare for him, but he doesn't get to do the same to the extent that he needs to cover everything? That's my main point here, I think almost anyone in the top 25 can beat Maru if they play in an unorthodox way that targets his standard way of playing.
Aw yeah, but for these builds applies another rule - when you see the build for the first time you are more vulnerable to it. That's what happened here IMO. Also Maru being Maru and way too aggressive when he doesn't have to be. His TvInnovation being bad in LotV wasn't even a question.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
Then again, why doesn't Maru win weekenders? He suffers from travelling? He disrespect his opponents or doesn't care about 280k tournaments? If weekenders would made of bo1 series the fact Maru was a successful ace in Proleague(and he still delivers the most recent Chinese one) would effectively counter my argument. I am not saying Jin Air is the sole reason of his success, it would be silly: his mechanics are top notch and he won Korean tournaments when KeSpa was still around.
As for Patience, we will see. Shape can look wildly different from one day to another, Sc2 is indeed a volatile game, 2018 almost made us forget it; players can as well get better, Patience seems on the rise to me.
IEM 2018 - lost to a teammate Blizzcon 2018 - lost to a teammate IEM 2019 - every Terran was bad
So, let's talk about the fact that using teamkills isn't exactly wise as they have been producing wrong results for over 9 years now, or let's not, because that way your theory wouldn't be quite good, would it?
Edit of edit> and I am mentioning this for 50th time again too. That's why I need that ignore function
On April 29 2019 21:55 Fango wrote: [quote] Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
In this situation both players can't prepare, then his mechanical prowess can and will prevail often, but what if a player can prepare for him, but he doesn't get to do the same to the extent that he needs to cover everything? That's my main point here, I think almost anyone in the top 25 can beat Maru if they play in an unorthodox way that targets his standard way of playing.
Aw yeah, but for these builds applies another rule - when you see the build for the first time you are more vulnerable to it. That's what happened here IMO. Also Maru being Maru and way too aggressive when he doesn't have to be. His TvInnovation being bad in LotV wasn't even a question.
On April 29 2019 21:55 Fango wrote: [quote] Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
Then again, why doesn't Maru win weekenders? He suffers from travelling? He disrespect his opponents or doesn't care about 280k tournaments? If weekenders would made of bo1 series the fact Maru was a successful ace in Proleague(and he still delivers the most recent Chinese one) would effectively counter my argument. I am not saying Jin Air is the sole reason of his success, it would be silly: his mechanics are top notch and he won Korean tournaments when KeSpa was still around.
As for Patience, we will see. Shape can look wildly different from one day to another, Sc2 is indeed a volatile game, 2018 almost made us forget it; players can as well get better, Patience seems on the rise to me.
IEM 2018 - lost to a teammate Blizzcon 2018 - lost to a teammate IEM 2019 - every Terran was bad
So, let's talk about the fact that using teamkills isn't exactly wise as they have been producing wrong results for over 9 years now, or let's not, because that way your theory wouldn't be quite good, would it?
Edit of edit> and I am mentioning this for 50th time again too. That's why I need that ignore function
You make it looks like your answer is evidently right and you have to remind me of that every time xD
Speaking of nine years, Maru only won one weekender in that timespan and your explanation by saying he never cared enough and, when he did, he was constantly stopped by teammates? One of the brightest part of Maru's career was his ability of beating Protoss in 2014 and generally to be unaffected by balance and now the opposite happened at IEM 2019?
No, thank you; you are free to believe whatever you want, I'll stick with Ishinshishi's theory which seems to be much more fitting.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
I'm sure it's not disrespectful at all to consider patience getting absolutely lucky, and this having nothing to do with the fact that he prepared builds for a preparation-based tournament like the GSL that everyone gets excited over. Adept-ing well to your opponent is not simply a matter of luck. To say that maru doesn't respect him at all, you must have some evidence for it.
Oh FFS Patience is the worse player, he got BO wins and tell me he wasn't lucky when he shade in just as Inno unsieges... how else do you want to define luck? He didn't see the unsiege so it wasn't a good move, he didn't know, he just YOLO and it worked.
This is why Protoss is feeling too strong. Inno always plays so safe he shouldn't be losing to scrubs like patience
As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
On April 29 2019 21:59 Ej_ wrote: [quote] Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
In this situation both players can't prepare, then his mechanical prowess can and will prevail often, but what if a player can prepare for him, but he doesn't get to do the same to the extent that he needs to cover everything? That's my main point here, I think almost anyone in the top 25 can beat Maru if they play in an unorthodox way that targets his standard way of playing.
Aw yeah, but for these builds applies another rule - when you see the build for the first time you are more vulnerable to it. That's what happened here IMO. Also Maru being Maru and way too aggressive when he doesn't have to be. His TvInnovation being bad in LotV wasn't even a question.
EDit>
On April 29 2019 22:46 Xain0n wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:03 Fango wrote:
On April 29 2019 21:59 Ej_ wrote: [quote] Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
Then again, why doesn't Maru win weekenders? He suffers from travelling? He disrespect his opponents or doesn't care about 280k tournaments? If weekenders would made of bo1 series the fact Maru was a successful ace in Proleague(and he still delivers the most recent Chinese one) would effectively counter my argument. I am not saying Jin Air is the sole reason of his success, it would be silly: his mechanics are top notch and he won Korean tournaments when KeSpa was still around.
As for Patience, we will see. Shape can look wildly different from one day to another, Sc2 is indeed a volatile game, 2018 almost made us forget it; players can as well get better, Patience seems on the rise to me.
IEM 2018 - lost to a teammate Blizzcon 2018 - lost to a teammate IEM 2019 - every Terran was bad
So, let's talk about the fact that using teamkills isn't exactly wise as they have been producing wrong results for over 9 years now, or let's not, because that way your theory wouldn't be quite good, would it?
Edit of edit> and I am mentioning this for 50th time again too. That's why I need that ignore function
You make it looks like your answer is evidently right and you have to remind me of that every time xD
Speaking of nine years, Maru only won one weekender in that timespan and your explanation by saying he never cared enough and, when he did, he was constantly stopped by teammates? One of the brightest part of Maru's career was his ability of beating Protoss in 2014 and generally to be unaffected by balance and now the opposite happened at IEM 2019?
No, thank you; you are free to believe whatever you want, I'll stick with Ishinshishi's theory which seems to be much more fitting.
You mentioned 280k tournaments, we were talking about the biggest tourneys we have which are IEM and Blizzcon, now you had to back paddled to the "1 weekender" theme. The same way you are free to believe w/e you want but somehow you feel strong to convince me to switch believes to your nonsense. Which doesn't work, duh.
Not sure if you're just trolling or what... but hey, w/e
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time.
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
Btw, did you guys notice the difference in respect Maru had for Inno when compared to Patience? In both games vs inno he gged out in a considerably better position than the ones he did vs Patience, it was like he believed he could beat Patience with half the supply, but not Inno.
So why didn't he prepare extensively for Inno and Patience then? Because he didn't respect them enough/thought he'd win anyways would be my guess
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
I'm sure it's not disrespectful at all to consider patience getting absolutely lucky, and this having nothing to do with the fact that he prepared builds for a preparation-based tournament like the GSL that everyone gets excited over. Adept-ing well to your opponent is not simply a matter of luck. To say that maru doesn't respect him at all, you must have some evidence for it.
Oh FFS Patience is the worse player, he got BO wins and tell me he wasn't lucky when he shade in just as Inno unsieges... how else do you want to define luck? He didn't see the unsiege so it wasn't a good move, he didn't know, he just YOLO and it worked.
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
I'm sure it's not disrespectful at all to consider patience getting absolutely lucky, and this having nothing to do with the fact that he prepared builds for a preparation-based tournament like the GSL that everyone gets excited over. Adept-ing well to your opponent is not simply a matter of luck. To say that maru doesn't respect him at all, you must have some evidence for it.
Oh FFS Patience is the worse player, he got BO wins and tell me he wasn't lucky when he shade in just as Inno unsieges... how else do you want to define luck? He didn't see the unsiege so it wasn't a good move, he didn't know, he just YOLO and it worked.
It didn't really matter so it's not that lucky
Well I don't claim he was just lucky, he's a good player and he had luck on his side and won. The next time he may not be that lucky and will look like a trash. Patience can look both ways and often does (similarly to the old sOs, nowadays sOs just looks bad)
On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote: Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player".
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all
I'm sure it's not disrespectful at all to consider patience getting absolutely lucky, and this having nothing to do with the fact that he prepared builds for a preparation-based tournament like the GSL that everyone gets excited over. Adept-ing well to your opponent is not simply a matter of luck. To say that maru doesn't respect him at all, you must have some evidence for it.
Oh FFS Patience is the worse player, he got BO wins and tell me he wasn't lucky when he shade in just as Inno unsieges... how else do you want to define luck? He didn't see the unsiege so it wasn't a good move, he didn't know, he just YOLO and it worked.
It didn't really matter so it's not that lucky
Well I don't claim he was just lucky, he's a good player and he had luck on his side and won. The next time he may not be that lucky and will look like a trash. Patience can look both ways and often does (similarly to the old sOs, nowadays sOs just looks bad)
Speaking of sOs, adept all-ins are a thing again now in every Protoss match-up and sOs got through the first 20 months of LotV doing nothing but adept all-ins. This may be his time.
On April 29 2019 22:03 Fango wrote: [quote] If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
In this situation both players can't prepare, then his mechanical prowess can and will prevail often, but what if a player can prepare for him, but he doesn't get to do the same to the extent that he needs to cover everything? That's my main point here, I think almost anyone in the top 25 can beat Maru if they play in an unorthodox way that targets his standard way of playing.
Aw yeah, but for these builds applies another rule - when you see the build for the first time you are more vulnerable to it. That's what happened here IMO. Also Maru being Maru and way too aggressive when he doesn't have to be. His TvInnovation being bad in LotV wasn't even a question.
EDit>
On April 29 2019 22:46 Xain0n wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:03 Fango wrote: [quote] If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced.
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
Then again, why doesn't Maru win weekenders? He suffers from travelling? He disrespect his opponents or doesn't care about 280k tournaments? If weekenders would made of bo1 series the fact Maru was a successful ace in Proleague(and he still delivers the most recent Chinese one) would effectively counter my argument. I am not saying Jin Air is the sole reason of his success, it would be silly: his mechanics are top notch and he won Korean tournaments when KeSpa was still around.
As for Patience, we will see. Shape can look wildly different from one day to another, Sc2 is indeed a volatile game, 2018 almost made us forget it; players can as well get better, Patience seems on the rise to me.
IEM 2018 - lost to a teammate Blizzcon 2018 - lost to a teammate IEM 2019 - every Terran was bad
So, let's talk about the fact that using teamkills isn't exactly wise as they have been producing wrong results for over 9 years now, or let's not, because that way your theory wouldn't be quite good, would it?
Edit of edit> and I am mentioning this for 50th time again too. That's why I need that ignore function
You make it looks like your answer is evidently right and you have to remind me of that every time xD
Speaking of nine years, Maru only won one weekender in that timespan and your explanation by saying he never cared enough and, when he did, he was constantly stopped by teammates? One of the brightest part of Maru's career was his ability of beating Protoss in 2014 and generally to be unaffected by balance and now the opposite happened at IEM 2019?
No, thank you; you are free to believe whatever you want, I'll stick with Ishinshishi's theory which seems to be much more fitting.
You mentioned 280k tournaments, we were talking about the biggest tourneys we have which are IEM and Blizzcon, now you had to back paddled to the "1 weekender" theme. The same way you are free to believe w/e you want but somehow you feel strong to convince me to switch believes to your nonsense. Which doesn't work, duh.
Not sure if you're just trolling or what... but hey, w/e
I mentioned BlizzCon because Maru openly stated it was his goal to win it, so that you cannot answer with the real nonsense saying he did not care enough; the point has always been why Maru performs so much better at preparation formats.
You are way beyond anyone's reach, don't worry, I'm not even remotely interested in trying to convince you; still, I cannot passively accept your idea for which there is no real explanation and Maru is truly godlike, it's just that his evil teammates steal his food when tournaments do not last three months.
On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote: [quote] Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
In this situation both players can't prepare, then his mechanical prowess can and will prevail often, but what if a player can prepare for him, but he doesn't get to do the same to the extent that he needs to cover everything? That's my main point here, I think almost anyone in the top 25 can beat Maru if they play in an unorthodox way that targets his standard way of playing.
Aw yeah, but for these builds applies another rule - when you see the build for the first time you are more vulnerable to it. That's what happened here IMO. Also Maru being Maru and way too aggressive when he doesn't have to be. His TvInnovation being bad in LotV wasn't even a question.
EDit>
On April 29 2019 22:46 Xain0n wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote: [quote] Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
Then again, why doesn't Maru win weekenders? He suffers from travelling? He disrespect his opponents or doesn't care about 280k tournaments? If weekenders would made of bo1 series the fact Maru was a successful ace in Proleague(and he still delivers the most recent Chinese one) would effectively counter my argument. I am not saying Jin Air is the sole reason of his success, it would be silly: his mechanics are top notch and he won Korean tournaments when KeSpa was still around.
As for Patience, we will see. Shape can look wildly different from one day to another, Sc2 is indeed a volatile game, 2018 almost made us forget it; players can as well get better, Patience seems on the rise to me.
IEM 2018 - lost to a teammate Blizzcon 2018 - lost to a teammate IEM 2019 - every Terran was bad
So, let's talk about the fact that using teamkills isn't exactly wise as they have been producing wrong results for over 9 years now, or let's not, because that way your theory wouldn't be quite good, would it?
Edit of edit> and I am mentioning this for 50th time again too. That's why I need that ignore function
You make it looks like your answer is evidently right and you have to remind me of that every time xD
Speaking of nine years, Maru only won one weekender in that timespan and your explanation by saying he never cared enough and, when he did, he was constantly stopped by teammates? One of the brightest part of Maru's career was his ability of beating Protoss in 2014 and generally to be unaffected by balance and now the opposite happened at IEM 2019?
No, thank you; you are free to believe whatever you want, I'll stick with Ishinshishi's theory which seems to be much more fitting.
You mentioned 280k tournaments, we were talking about the biggest tourneys we have which are IEM and Blizzcon, now you had to back paddled to the "1 weekender" theme. The same way you are free to believe w/e you want but somehow you feel strong to convince me to switch believes to your nonsense. Which doesn't work, duh.
Not sure if you're just trolling or what... but hey, w/e
I mentioned BlizzCon because Maru openly stated it was his goal to win it, so that you cannot answer with the real nonsense saying he did not care enough; the point has always been why Maru performs so much better at preparation formats.
You are way beyond anyone's reach, don't worry, I'm not even remotely interested in trying to convince you; still, I cannot passively accept your idea for which there is no real explanation and Maru is truly godlike, it's just that his evil teammates steal his food when tournaments do not last three months.
Yet you keep replying to me like you want to, isn't that weird?
On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote: [quote] Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
In this situation both players can't prepare, then his mechanical prowess can and will prevail often, but what if a player can prepare for him, but he doesn't get to do the same to the extent that he needs to cover everything? That's my main point here, I think almost anyone in the top 25 can beat Maru if they play in an unorthodox way that targets his standard way of playing.
Aw yeah, but for these builds applies another rule - when you see the build for the first time you are more vulnerable to it. That's what happened here IMO. Also Maru being Maru and way too aggressive when he doesn't have to be. His TvInnovation being bad in LotV wasn't even a question.
EDit>
On April 29 2019 22:46 Xain0n wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:
On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote: [quote] Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic?
It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me.
That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2).
So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
Then again, why doesn't Maru win weekenders? He suffers from travelling? He disrespect his opponents or doesn't care about 280k tournaments? If weekenders would made of bo1 series the fact Maru was a successful ace in Proleague(and he still delivers the most recent Chinese one) would effectively counter my argument. I am not saying Jin Air is the sole reason of his success, it would be silly: his mechanics are top notch and he won Korean tournaments when KeSpa was still around.
As for Patience, we will see. Shape can look wildly different from one day to another, Sc2 is indeed a volatile game, 2018 almost made us forget it; players can as well get better, Patience seems on the rise to me.
IEM 2018 - lost to a teammate Blizzcon 2018 - lost to a teammate IEM 2019 - every Terran was bad
So, let's talk about the fact that using teamkills isn't exactly wise as they have been producing wrong results for over 9 years now, or let's not, because that way your theory wouldn't be quite good, would it?
Edit of edit> and I am mentioning this for 50th time again too. That's why I need that ignore function
You make it looks like your answer is evidently right and you have to remind me of that every time xD
Speaking of nine years, Maru only won one weekender in that timespan and your explanation by saying he never cared enough and, when he did, he was constantly stopped by teammates? One of the brightest part of Maru's career was his ability of beating Protoss in 2014 and generally to be unaffected by balance and now the opposite happened at IEM 2019?
No, thank you; you are free to believe whatever you want, I'll stick with Ishinshishi's theory which seems to be much more fitting.
You mentioned 280k tournaments, we were talking about the biggest tourneys we have which are IEM and Blizzcon, now you had to back paddled to the "1 weekender" theme. The same way you are free to believe w/e you want but somehow you feel strong to convince me to switch believes to your nonsense. Which doesn't work, duh.
Not sure if you're just trolling or what... but hey, w/e
I mentioned BlizzCon because Maru openly stated it was his goal to win it, so that you cannot answer with the real nonsense saying he did not care enough; the point has always been why Maru performs so much better at preparation formats.
You are way beyond anyone's reach, don't worry, I'm not even remotely interested in trying to convince you; still, I cannot passively accept your idea for which there is no real explanation and Maru is truly godlike, it's just that his evil teammates steal his food when tournaments do not last three months.
Yet you keep replying to me like you want to, isn't that weird?
If I didn't want to reply to such statements I'd have never created my account on Team Liquid.
On April 30 2019 00:20 M2 wrote: As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
right on target with this comment. I don't have much BW experience, but it's the same story with wc3. you can get pretty damn far behind and still claw your way back if you are the better player. in sc2 you are absolutely fucked if you get behind, no matter how mechanically / strategically gifted you are. vP? no chance of comeback. vT? almost no chance. vZ? maybe you can make some magic happen in this match-up, but nothing like the comebacks of wc3
half-way through the defense against the adepts, you could have swapped patience with a 5.1k amateur protoss player and maru still would have lost
On April 30 2019 00:20 M2 wrote: As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
right on target with this comment. I don't have much BW experience, but it's the same story with wc3. you can get pretty damn far behind and still claw your way back if you are the better player. in sc2 you are absolutely fucked if you get behind, no matter how mechanically / strategically gifted you are. vP? no chance of comeback. vT? almost no chance. vZ? maybe you can make some magic happen in this match-up, but nothing like the comebacks of wc3
half-way through the defense against the adepts, you could have swapped patience with a 5.1k amateur protoss player and maru still would have lost
This is wrong. Huge comebacks are possible, especially in TvP and TvZ
I don't know what to tell you if you think a 5.1 k MMR protoss couldve controlled the adepts like that to finish off literally Maru
All the bonjwas except 1 were Terran players. Terran is broken in BW. Siege tanks and vultures dwarf every other unit in BW in terms of capability per cost (both resource and supply) That's why the bonjwas can dominate like that. Don't get me wrong the Terran bonjwas were skilled but so were the protoss dragons and jaedong and they were never able to enter bonjwa territory. the one non-terran bonjwa was involved in match fixing
sc2 also has almost same degree of of comeback potential as in wc3 if the skill difference is there.
On April 30 2019 00:20 M2 wrote: As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
This is pretty accurate. It is mostly due to how low the macro skill ceiling is compared to broodwar, and due to how hard some of the counters are in sc2. Aoe/Splash damage is also insane in SC2.
In broodwar, even flash didnt macro perfectly. Its almost impossible to do with how much stuff is going on in a normal game.
Creating scvs, sending scvs to mine, clicking individually on each production facility to make them produce...No group hotkeys for multiple buildings.
Also bases mined out a lot slower, you were not FORCED to expand as fast. You could only select 12 units per group, making the deathball finishing move harder to execute. Players could defend easier with fewer units because of that reason and because defender advantage was stronger ( highground).
There was no warp-ins, no warp-prism, no offensive nydus, no medivac boosts. It was harder to capitalize on a lead by warp-in in 12 zealots in the main and sending huge army at the front.
It was much easier to stabilize and come back in broodwar, especially if you were a superior player with macro constantly better than your opponent that would snowball the longer the game went, even if you were behind.
On April 30 2019 04:30 Toua wrote: Hopefully we can finaly see another zerg champion
Well it's not like Maru has been preventing Zerg champions left and right. He's prevented 3 (possibly 4) Protoss championships.
Maru Dark(RO4) 4-2 Maru Rogue(RO8) 3-2 (which many rated as the finals of that season)
While those two weren't in the finals, Rogue had the form to do it and we can't tell what Dark would be able to do to Zest considering how bad he was(maybe just Maru was that good, who knows)
On April 30 2019 07:56 Anc13nt wrote: Wow Patience is a madman lol. Happy that Inno won. I'm hoping that Inno, Classic, Dark or Stats wins this whole tournament.
Dark won't win, he will get to RO4 at best, if he gets some crazy schemes running at group selection and everything goes right I can see him getting 2nd place, but realistically there are at least 2 players better at him in BO7. (Stats & Classic)
Inno ends at RO8 IMO. Edit> To clear the Inno thing out - he's bad in PvT, strong in TvT and TvZ. Considering two biggest names to get the title at the moment are Classic and Stats and Inno's PvT... uhm, he would have to have bracket luck where somebody else kicks out all the Protoss players and then meet some Zerg in the finals. Which I don't see happening in the current Zerg situation. And somehow I cannot see TvT finals either, Inno would have to have too many things going his way.
On April 30 2019 04:30 Toua wrote: Hopefully we can finaly see another zerg champion
Well it's not like Maru has been preventing Zerg champions left and right. He's prevented 3 (possibly 4) Protoss championships.
Maru Dark(RO4) 4-2 Maru Rogue(RO8) 3-2 (which many rated as the finals of that season)
While those two weren't in the finals, Rogue had the form to do it and we can't tell what Dark would be able to do to Zest considering how bad he was(maybe just Maru was that good, who knows)
On April 30 2019 07:56 Anc13nt wrote: Wow Patience is a madman lol. Happy that Inno won. I'm hoping that Inno, Classic, Dark or Stats wins this whole tournament.
Dark won't win, he will get to RO4 at best, if he gets some crazy schemes running at group selection and everything goes right I can see him getting 2nd place, but realistically there are at least 2 players better at him in BO7. (Stats & Classic)
Inno ends at RO8 IMO. Edit> To clear the Inno thing out - he's bad in PvT, strong in TvT and TvZ. Considering two biggest names to get the title at the moment are Classic and Stats and Inno's PvT... uhm, he would have to have bracket luck where somebody else kicks out all the Protoss players and then meet some Zerg in the finals. Which I don't see happening in the current Zerg situation. And somehow I cannot see TvT finals either, Inno would have to have too many things going his way.
What makes you so sure that Dark will not be able to overcome his curse? Others have done it in the past.
Inno's prediction seems pretty on point(too many Protoss around), his TvT shouldn't be better than TY's anyway.
On April 30 2019 00:20 M2 wrote: As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
right on target with this comment. I don't have much BW experience, but it's the same story with wc3. you can get pretty damn far behind and still claw your way back if you are the better player. in sc2 you are absolutely fucked if you get behind, no matter how mechanically / strategically gifted you are. vP? no chance of comeback. vT? almost no chance. vZ? maybe you can make some magic happen in this match-up, but nothing like the comebacks of wc3
half-way through the defense against the adepts, you could have swapped patience with a 5.1k amateur protoss player and maru still would have lost
This is wrong. Huge comebacks are possible, especially in TvP and TvZ
sc2 also has almost same degree of of comeback potential as in wc3 if the skill difference is there.
it's like I'm reading a comment by somehow who has never played a single game of wc3 or sc2. what I wrote isn't even remotely controversial. but ok, show me a replay / vod of a pro terran making a comeback vP
the sc2 equivalent of this game would be probably involve some kind of mid-game max with low-tech units; imagine protoss 190 supply (mostly gateway units) vs terran 130 supply (mostly infantry) and terran still winning
On April 30 2019 12:31 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: Patience's games were disgusting. Shades of early LOTV... Congratulations on destroying Innovation and Maru I guess...
Yeah Patience looking pretty strong so far this year.
On April 30 2019 00:20 M2 wrote: As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
right on target with this comment. I don't have much BW experience, but it's the same story with wc3. you can get pretty damn far behind and still claw your way back if you are the better player. in sc2 you are absolutely fucked if you get behind, no matter how mechanically / strategically gifted you are. vP? no chance of comeback. vT? almost no chance. vZ? maybe you can make some magic happen in this match-up, but nothing like the comebacks of wc3
half-way through the defense against the adepts, you could have swapped patience with a 5.1k amateur protoss player and maru still would have lost
This is wrong. Huge comebacks are possible, especially in TvP and TvZ
sc2 also has almost same degree of of comeback potential as in wc3 if the skill difference is there.
it's like I'm reading a comment by somehow who has never played a single game of wc3 or sc2. what I wrote isn't even remotely controversial. but ok, show me a replay / vod of a pro terran making a comeback vP
the sc2 equivalent of this game would be probably involve some kind of mid-game max with low-tech units; imagine protoss 190 supply (mostly gateway units) vs terran 130 supply (mostly infantry) and terran still winning
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
On April 30 2019 19:21 DieuCure wrote: And GSL isnt tournament where participants are present because of their popularity and not their competence.
.
It's not something you can argue with, GSL vs the World is a GSL event and it is a Premier tournament; WCS Challenger is a WCS event but it is one major/qualifier, the difference is enormous.
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
I dunno, it doesn’t feel like it’s quite as doable to claw your way back into a game without your opponent doing something silly.
Part of this may be simply that I know SC2 very well at this stage, I know BW and WC3 pretty well but not to the same degree, so what seems a miraculous comeback to me may be just obvious to someone with a keener eye.
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
The beautiful example of how it's impossible to claw back is Maru v Dear on that big map where Dear won. Maru failed at the push, did nothing, got behind and lost. Even though he played very well. Against a competent player on a different map it's impossible to get back.
This game in general doesn't like comebacks, it doesn't matter what MU it is
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
The beautiful example of how it's impossible to claw back is Maru v Dear on that big map where Dear won. Maru failed at the push, did nothing, got behind and lost. Even though he played very well. Against a competent player on a different map it's impossible to get back.
This game in general doesn't like comebacks, it doesn't matter what MU it is
It’s super hard for sure, can be done but I don’t think the game really allows for it all that much without throws.
WC3 has heroes, as well as the upkeep mechanic where you absolutely can build a max army but it becomes a risk to do so because getting 40% of your gold income for an extended period can leave you completely broke if you don’t kill your opponent.
Brood War has a combo of the macro being so hard that even at the highest levels of play some players actually gain an advantage in it, the general buildup to huge armies being slower and high ground advantage enabling efficient trades from a deficit.
I still love SC2 but it’s a real snowbally game, even at lower levels of play that’s the case. I gradually just took to leaving games if I took too much damage early game because the times I pulled it back were massive exceptions to the times I just died 5-10 minutes later. That or I would just allin and stop macroing altogether and use the engagement purely to practice micro against a human opponent.
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
I dunno, it doesn’t feel like it’s quite as doable to claw your way back into a game without your opponent doing something silly.
Part of this may be simply that I know SC2 very well at this stage, I know BW and WC3 pretty well but not to the same degree, so what seems a miraculous comeback to me may be just obvious to someone with a keener eye.
Maybe it isnt as doable, since sc2 is more balanced and technical than both BW and WC3, but it certainly far from near impossible like the other posters were claiming.
Also, "something silly" is very vague lol. SC2 is a very difficult game, nobody plays perfectly all the time. Like in all those games I posted here, I don't think anything was so bad to the point that it was silly. Maybe if analyzed in hindsight, we could find more optimal strategy/tactic, but the whole point of real time strategy is that it's real time lol.
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
The beautiful example of how it's impossible to claw back is Maru v Dear on that big map where Dear won. Maru failed at the push, did nothing, got behind and lost. Even though he played very well. Against a competent player on a different map it's impossible to get back.
This game in general doesn't like comebacks, it doesn't matter what MU it is
How is it "impossible to claw back" when I just posted several instances of players clawing back from huge deficits lol?
Dear outplayed Maru for most of that game. Maru wasn't able to comeback, but that doesnt mean comebacks in SC2 are impossible
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
I dunno, it doesn’t feel like it’s quite as doable to claw your way back into a game without your opponent doing something silly.
Part of this may be simply that I know SC2 very well at this stage, I know BW and WC3 pretty well but not to the same degree, so what seems a miraculous comeback to me may be just obvious to someone with a keener eye.
Maybe it isnt as doable, since sc2 is more balanced and technical than both BW and WC3, but it certainly far from near impossible like the other posters were claiming.
Also, "something silly" is very vague lol. SC2 is a very difficult game, nobody plays perfectly all the time. Like in all those games I posted here, I don't think anything was so bad to the point that it was silly. Maybe if analyzed in hindsight, we could find more optimal strategy/tactic, but the whole point of real time strategy is that it's real time lol.
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
The beautiful example of how it's impossible to claw back is Maru v Dear on that big map where Dear won. Maru failed at the push, did nothing, got behind and lost. Even though he played very well. Against a competent player on a different map it's impossible to get back.
This game in general doesn't like comebacks, it doesn't matter what MU it is
How is it "impossible to claw back" when I just posted several instances of players clawing back from huge deficits lol?
Dear outplayed Maru for most of that game. Maru wasn't able to comeback, but that doesnt mean comebacks in SC2 are impossible
My point was that on a standard map with standard layout and without the person in advantage doing any mistakes it's impossible. This was Maru being on a good map and Neeb doing some slight mistakes which allowed Maru to get back. The best example is actually the WCS Mvp game
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
I dunno, it doesn’t feel like it’s quite as doable to claw your way back into a game without your opponent doing something silly.
Part of this may be simply that I know SC2 very well at this stage, I know BW and WC3 pretty well but not to the same degree, so what seems a miraculous comeback to me may be just obvious to someone with a keener eye.
Maybe it isnt as doable, since sc2 is more balanced and technical than both BW and WC3, but it certainly far from near impossible like the other posters were claiming.
Also, "something silly" is very vague lol. SC2 is a very difficult game, nobody plays perfectly all the time. Like in all those games I posted here, I don't think anything was so bad to the point that it was silly. Maybe if analyzed in hindsight, we could find more optimal strategy/tactic, but the whole point of real time strategy is that it's real time lol.
On May 02 2019 06:28 deacon.frost wrote:
On May 01 2019 05:03 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 30 2019 18:24 deacon.frost wrote:
On April 30 2019 17:49 BerserkSword wrote:
On April 30 2019 15:56 SHODAN wrote:
On April 30 2019 14:05 BerserkSword wrote: hell, gumiho just eliminated dark last super tournament in a game where dark was consistently 60+ supply above gumiho lmao
and these cats want to act like there are no comebacks in starcraft 2
why'd you link Maru vs Neeb? Maru wasn't far behind at any point during that game
well done digging 3 years into the past for the obscure Taeja example. not much of a comeback though, is it? Taeja is equal or ahead in army supply the entire game. Zest has a better economy but no tech, no storm, no colossus, no splash, no dick, no balls. failed gateway all-in into 100 supply pure gateway with 1/1 upgrades vs. 100 supply marauder-heavy MMM with 1/1 upgrades + liberator, on an antiquated map with easily accessible island bases - gee, I wonder who won that one
I already wrote that you can make some magic happen in TvZ, but ok
what are you smoking dude
vs Neeb, there was a point in the game when Maru was around 30 supply down, 20 workers down, a bunch of lvl 3 upgrades denied, tech structures/infrastructure destroyed, Neeb with the bank, but Maru turned it around and won
you need to watch taeja vs zest again. at about 10 minutes in Taeja's economy is in shambles and Zest is reguarly 50-60 supply ahead until taeja makes his comeback
In any case, I don't have a list of TvP games that fit your completely arbitrary 190 vs 130 supply criteria at the top of my head. I literally just picked the two that immediately came to mind since they more or less matched. Not all comebacks have to be "epic" either...some can be smaller but significant. So many times a Protoss or Zerg player gets like a 20 worker lead and then the Terran player just turtles and makes his comeback.
regarding vZ, you said the comebacks of sc2 are nothing like the comebacks of wc3. and i just gave u two examples of sc2 players making comebacks despite being down 60-70 supply for periods of time
Neeb v Maru got its own episode, but let's rewatch it together. yes, Maru got pressured and it was 170 against 200 supply when the denial of 3/3 happened, that was big but Neeb wasn't able to press this so that's a minor comeback but not a big one. At the same time Neeb loses Probes while Maru has MULEs, Maru lost less minerals than Neeb did, so Neebs economy is hit harder than Marus! Maru's losses were mostly in the gas(it was something about 9k/3k vs Neeb's 11k/1k). So the game was essentially equal besides upgrades.
And here comes the kicker.
AFter some skirmishes and tempest/oracle shenanigans we get those DTs sniping PF. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. And then Neeb LOSES those DTs. That was what, 10 DTs? 1k/1k over a PF of Terran who has at least 2 spare CCs? Uhm... uhm...
Maru played very well and was defensively using the strongest Terran weapons on a map that's good for this style. I believe that on any other map Neeb would have won during the 3/3 denial.
But again, it wasn't that huge comeback, Neeb was worse at army control and he wasn't that far ahead thanks to Maru being the better player.
Edit> for example at one point was Neeb like "oy mate! i'm gonna kill you!" and Maru was like "nah mate, pawn da protoss" and EMPed all his templars Neeb then was "ok mate, i'm gonna kill you later!"
Those were some very dire straits for maru. Denial of 3/3 which we both agree were big, loss of tech structures including armories, 30 supply down to a protoss comfortably on 4 bases, a protoss army that essentially killed off terran 4th base, isolating the 5th base (which was then the 4th base), Maru's counterattack successfully fended off, and the protoss army freely establishing complete map control, and the protoss player had a 5x bigger bank and a more stable economy.
That is far from "essentially equal besides upgrades"
We both agree that it was thanks to Maru's phenomenal capabilities at this game that he came back and won. that doesnt mean it wasnt a huge comeback though. also I think Maru wouldve won that scenario on king's cove too.
In any case, going back to the original discussion, whether it's a small or big comeback, it still shows that comebacks do occur in sc2, unlike what other posters are suggesting here
The beautiful example of how it's impossible to claw back is Maru v Dear on that big map where Dear won. Maru failed at the push, did nothing, got behind and lost. Even though he played very well. Against a competent player on a different map it's impossible to get back.
This game in general doesn't like comebacks, it doesn't matter what MU it is
How is it "impossible to claw back" when I just posted several instances of players clawing back from huge deficits lol?
Dear outplayed Maru for most of that game. Maru wasn't able to comeback, but that doesnt mean comebacks in SC2 are impossible
My point was that on a standard map with standard layout and without the person in advantage doing any mistakes it's impossible. This was Maru being on a good map and Neeb doing some slight mistakes which allowed Maru to get back. The best example is actually the WCS Mvp game
What does "making a mistake" even mean? SC2 is such a demanding game that nobody ever plays it perfectly. Players can constantly push the limits though. If a player has an advantage/big lead, and the other player out macros and or out micros him (or pursues a certain strategy, or takes a high risk high reward route) and makes a comeback to win it, does it mean that the player who lost the lead made a mistake? This is the idea of "real time" in the strategy. This is not chess.
EPT
2019 Global StarCraft II League Season 2/Code S
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1850.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/4742.jpg)
Maru vs 
Armani![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/663.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/5308.jpg)
Patience
