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On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 22:03 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:59 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 21:55 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote:
Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player". Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time. If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced. Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year. Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic? It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me. That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2). So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it.
Then again, why doesn't Maru win weekenders? He suffers from travelling? He disrespect his opponents or doesn't care about 280k tournaments?
If weekenders would made of bo1 series the fact Maru was a successful ace in Proleague(and he still delivers the most recent Chinese one) would effectively counter my argument.
I am not saying Jin Air is the sole reason of his success, it would be silly: his mechanics are top notch and he won Korean tournaments when KeSpa was still around.
As for Patience, we will see. Shape can look wildly different from one day to another, Sc2 is indeed a volatile game, 2018 almost made us forget it; players can as well get better, Patience seems on the rise to me.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 29 2019 22:40 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 22:03 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:59 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 21:55 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote:
Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player". Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time. If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced. Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year. Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic? It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me. That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2). So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it. In this situation both players can't prepare, then his mechanical prowess can and will prevail often, but what if a player can prepare for him, but he doesn't get to do the same to the extent that he needs to cover everything? That's my main point here, I think almost anyone in the top 25 can beat Maru if they play in an unorthodox way that targets his standard way of playing.
Aw yeah, but for these builds applies another rule - when you see the build for the first time you are more vulnerable to it. That's what happened here IMO. Also Maru being Maru and way too aggressive when he doesn't have to be. His TvInnovation being bad in LotV wasn't even a question.
EDit>
On April 29 2019 22:46 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 22:03 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:59 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 21:55 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote:
Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player". Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time. If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced. Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year. Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic? It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me. That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2). So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it. Then again, why doesn't Maru win weekenders? He suffers from travelling? He disrespect his opponents or doesn't care about 280k tournaments? If weekenders would made of bo1 series the fact Maru was a successful ace in Proleague(and he still delivers the most recent Chinese one) would effectively counter my argument. I am not saying Jin Air is the sole reason of his success, it would be silly: his mechanics are top notch and he won Korean tournaments when KeSpa was still around. As for Patience, we will see. Shape can look wildly different from one day to another, Sc2 is indeed a volatile game, 2018 almost made us forget it; players can as well get better, Patience seems on the rise to me.
IEM 2018 - lost to a teammate
Blizzcon 2018 - lost to a teammate
IEM 2019 - every Terran was bad
So, let's talk about the fact that using teamkills isn't exactly wise as they have been producing wrong results for over 9 years now, or let's not, because that way your theory wouldn't be quite good, would it?
Edit of edit> and I am mentioning this for 50th time again too. That's why I need that ignore function 
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Patience plays in the most protoss way lol. Stupid aggression with a 3rd base behind.
At least we will have a new champion this season though.
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without Maru I bet a protoss will win this GSL, hopefully Stats
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On April 29 2019 22:46 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 22:40 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 22:03 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:59 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 21:55 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time. If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced. Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year. Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic? It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me. That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2). So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it. In this situation both players can't prepare, then his mechanical prowess can and will prevail often, but what if a player can prepare for him, but he doesn't get to do the same to the extent that he needs to cover everything? That's my main point here, I think almost anyone in the top 25 can beat Maru if they play in an unorthodox way that targets his standard way of playing. Aw yeah, but for these builds applies another rule - when you see the build for the first time you are more vulnerable to it. That's what happened here IMO. Also Maru being Maru and way too aggressive when he doesn't have to be. His TvInnovation being bad in LotV wasn't even a question. EDit> Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 22:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 22:03 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:59 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 21:55 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time. If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced. Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year. Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic? It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me. That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2). So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it. Then again, why doesn't Maru win weekenders? He suffers from travelling? He disrespect his opponents or doesn't care about 280k tournaments? If weekenders would made of bo1 series the fact Maru was a successful ace in Proleague(and he still delivers the most recent Chinese one) would effectively counter my argument. I am not saying Jin Air is the sole reason of his success, it would be silly: his mechanics are top notch and he won Korean tournaments when KeSpa was still around. As for Patience, we will see. Shape can look wildly different from one day to another, Sc2 is indeed a volatile game, 2018 almost made us forget it; players can as well get better, Patience seems on the rise to me. IEM 2018 - lost to a teammate Blizzcon 2018 - lost to a teammate IEM 2019 - every Terran was bad So, let's talk about the fact that using teamkills isn't exactly wise as they have been producing wrong results for over 9 years now, or let's not, because that way your theory wouldn't be quite good, would it? Edit of edit> and I am mentioning this for 50th time again too. That's why I need that ignore function
You make it looks like your answer is evidently right and you have to remind me of that every time xD
Speaking of nine years, Maru only won one weekender in that timespan and your explanation by saying he never cared enough and, when he did, he was constantly stopped by teammates? One of the brightest part of Maru's career was his ability of beating Protoss in 2014 and generally to be unaffected by balance and now the opposite happened at IEM 2019?
No, thank you; you are free to believe whatever you want, I'll stick with Ishinshishi's theory which seems to be much more fitting.
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On April 29 2019 21:59 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 21:57 sudete wrote:On April 29 2019 21:55 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote:
Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player". Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all I'm sure it's not disrespectful at all to consider patience getting absolutely lucky, and this having nothing to do with the fact that he prepared builds for a preparation-based tournament like the GSL that everyone gets excited over. Adept-ing well to your opponent is not simply a matter of luck. To say that maru doesn't respect him at all, you must have some evidence for it. Oh FFS Patience is the worse player, he got BO wins and tell me he wasn't lucky when he shade in just as Inno unsieges... how else do you want to define luck? He didn't see the unsiege so it wasn't a good move, he didn't know, he just YOLO and it worked.
This is why Protoss is feeling too strong. Inno always plays so safe he shouldn't be losing to scrubs like patience
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As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 30 2019 00:03 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 22:46 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:40 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 22:03 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:59 Ej_ wrote:
[quote]
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time. If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced. Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year. Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic? It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me. That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2). So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it. In this situation both players can't prepare, then his mechanical prowess can and will prevail often, but what if a player can prepare for him, but he doesn't get to do the same to the extent that he needs to cover everything? That's my main point here, I think almost anyone in the top 25 can beat Maru if they play in an unorthodox way that targets his standard way of playing. Aw yeah, but for these builds applies another rule - when you see the build for the first time you are more vulnerable to it. That's what happened here IMO. Also Maru being Maru and way too aggressive when he doesn't have to be. His TvInnovation being bad in LotV wasn't even a question. EDit> On April 29 2019 22:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 22:03 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:59 Ej_ wrote:
[quote]
Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time. If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced. Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year. Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic? It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me. That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2). So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it. Then again, why doesn't Maru win weekenders? He suffers from travelling? He disrespect his opponents or doesn't care about 280k tournaments? If weekenders would made of bo1 series the fact Maru was a successful ace in Proleague(and he still delivers the most recent Chinese one) would effectively counter my argument. I am not saying Jin Air is the sole reason of his success, it would be silly: his mechanics are top notch and he won Korean tournaments when KeSpa was still around. As for Patience, we will see. Shape can look wildly different from one day to another, Sc2 is indeed a volatile game, 2018 almost made us forget it; players can as well get better, Patience seems on the rise to me. IEM 2018 - lost to a teammate Blizzcon 2018 - lost to a teammate IEM 2019 - every Terran was bad So, let's talk about the fact that using teamkills isn't exactly wise as they have been producing wrong results for over 9 years now, or let's not, because that way your theory wouldn't be quite good, would it? Edit of edit> and I am mentioning this for 50th time again too. That's why I need that ignore function You make it looks like your answer is evidently right and you have to remind me of that every time xD Speaking of nine years, Maru only won one weekender in that timespan and your explanation by saying he never cared enough and, when he did, he was constantly stopped by teammates? One of the brightest part of Maru's career was his ability of beating Protoss in 2014 and generally to be unaffected by balance and now the opposite happened at IEM 2019? No, thank you; you are free to believe whatever you want, I'll stick with Ishinshishi's theory which seems to be much more fitting.
You mentioned 280k tournaments, we were talking about the biggest tourneys we have which are IEM and Blizzcon, now you had to back paddled to the "1 weekender" theme. The same way you are free to believe w/e you want but somehow you feel strong to convince me to switch believes to your nonsense. Which doesn't work, duh.
Not sure if you're just trolling or what... but hey, w/e
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On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 22:03 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:59 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 21:55 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote:
Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player". Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all Ignorance is bliss, I wish I had this much confidence in myself as you do when it comes to writing off Maru's losses as whatever fits at the given time. If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced. Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year. Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic? It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me. Btw, did you guys notice the difference in respect Maru had for Inno when compared to Patience? In both games vs inno he gged out in a considerably better position than the ones he did vs Patience, it was like he believed he could beat Patience with half the supply, but not Inno.
So why didn't he prepare extensively for Inno and Patience then? Because he didn't respect them enough/thought he'd win anyways would be my guess
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On April 29 2019 21:59 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 21:57 sudete wrote:On April 29 2019 21:55 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote:
Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player". Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all I'm sure it's not disrespectful at all to consider patience getting absolutely lucky, and this having nothing to do with the fact that he prepared builds for a preparation-based tournament like the GSL that everyone gets excited over. Adept-ing well to your opponent is not simply a matter of luck. To say that maru doesn't respect him at all, you must have some evidence for it. Oh FFS Patience is the worse player, he got BO wins and tell me he wasn't lucky when he shade in just as Inno unsieges... how else do you want to define luck? He didn't see the unsiege so it wasn't a good move, he didn't know, he just YOLO and it worked.
It didn't really matter so it's not that lucky
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 30 2019 00:43 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 21:59 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 21:57 sudete wrote:On April 29 2019 21:55 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote:
Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player". Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all I'm sure it's not disrespectful at all to consider patience getting absolutely lucky, and this having nothing to do with the fact that he prepared builds for a preparation-based tournament like the GSL that everyone gets excited over. Adept-ing well to your opponent is not simply a matter of luck. To say that maru doesn't respect him at all, you must have some evidence for it. Oh FFS Patience is the worse player, he got BO wins and tell me he wasn't lucky when he shade in just as Inno unsieges... how else do you want to define luck? He didn't see the unsiege so it wasn't a good move, he didn't know, he just YOLO and it worked. It didn't really matter so it's not that lucky
Well I don't claim he was just lucky, he's a good player and he had luck on his side and won. The next time he may not be that lucky and will look like a trash. Patience can look both ways and often does (similarly to the old sOs, nowadays sOs just looks bad)
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On April 30 2019 00:45 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 00:43 Elentos wrote:On April 29 2019 21:59 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 21:57 sudete wrote:On April 29 2019 21:55 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 21:54 sudete wrote:
Stop being disrespectful to inno and patience. They played better than maru in these series and took very well-deserved wins - not every game that maru loses has to be a throw or "playing cocky against a weaker player". Say what you want about INno but Patience got absolutely lucky and Maru didn't respect him at all I'm sure it's not disrespectful at all to consider patience getting absolutely lucky, and this having nothing to do with the fact that he prepared builds for a preparation-based tournament like the GSL that everyone gets excited over. Adept-ing well to your opponent is not simply a matter of luck. To say that maru doesn't respect him at all, you must have some evidence for it. Oh FFS Patience is the worse player, he got BO wins and tell me he wasn't lucky when he shade in just as Inno unsieges... how else do you want to define luck? He didn't see the unsiege so it wasn't a good move, he didn't know, he just YOLO and it worked. It didn't really matter so it's not that lucky Well I don't claim he was just lucky, he's a good player and he had luck on his side and won. The next time he may not be that lucky and will look like a trash. Patience can look both ways and often does (similarly to the old sOs, nowadays sOs just looks bad)
Speaking of sOs, adept all-ins are a thing again now in every Protoss match-up and sOs got through the first 20 months of LotV doing nothing but adept all-ins. This may be his time.
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On April 30 2019 00:37 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 00:03 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:46 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:40 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 22:03 Fango wrote:
[quote]
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced. Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year. Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic? It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me. That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2). So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it. In this situation both players can't prepare, then his mechanical prowess can and will prevail often, but what if a player can prepare for him, but he doesn't get to do the same to the extent that he needs to cover everything? That's my main point here, I think almost anyone in the top 25 can beat Maru if they play in an unorthodox way that targets his standard way of playing. Aw yeah, but for these builds applies another rule - when you see the build for the first time you are more vulnerable to it. That's what happened here IMO. Also Maru being Maru and way too aggressive when he doesn't have to be. His TvInnovation being bad in LotV wasn't even a question. EDit> On April 29 2019 22:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote:On April 29 2019 22:03 Fango wrote:
[quote]
If it makes you feel better I called this happening when the groups were announced. Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year. Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic? It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me. That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2). So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it. Then again, why doesn't Maru win weekenders? He suffers from travelling? He disrespect his opponents or doesn't care about 280k tournaments? If weekenders would made of bo1 series the fact Maru was a successful ace in Proleague(and he still delivers the most recent Chinese one) would effectively counter my argument. I am not saying Jin Air is the sole reason of his success, it would be silly: his mechanics are top notch and he won Korean tournaments when KeSpa was still around. As for Patience, we will see. Shape can look wildly different from one day to another, Sc2 is indeed a volatile game, 2018 almost made us forget it; players can as well get better, Patience seems on the rise to me. IEM 2018 - lost to a teammate Blizzcon 2018 - lost to a teammate IEM 2019 - every Terran was bad So, let's talk about the fact that using teamkills isn't exactly wise as they have been producing wrong results for over 9 years now, or let's not, because that way your theory wouldn't be quite good, would it? Edit of edit> and I am mentioning this for 50th time again too. That's why I need that ignore function You make it looks like your answer is evidently right and you have to remind me of that every time xD Speaking of nine years, Maru only won one weekender in that timespan and your explanation by saying he never cared enough and, when he did, he was constantly stopped by teammates? One of the brightest part of Maru's career was his ability of beating Protoss in 2014 and generally to be unaffected by balance and now the opposite happened at IEM 2019? No, thank you; you are free to believe whatever you want, I'll stick with Ishinshishi's theory which seems to be much more fitting. You mentioned 280k tournaments, we were talking about the biggest tourneys we have which are IEM and Blizzcon, now you had to back paddled to the "1 weekender" theme. The same way you are free to believe w/e you want but somehow you feel strong to convince me to switch believes to your nonsense. Which doesn't work, duh. Not sure if you're just trolling or what... but hey, w/e
I mentioned BlizzCon because Maru openly stated it was his goal to win it, so that you cannot answer with the real nonsense saying he did not care enough; the point has always been why Maru performs so much better at preparation formats.
You are way beyond anyone's reach, don't worry, I'm not even remotely interested in trying to convince you; still, I cannot passively accept your idea for which there is no real explanation and Maru is truly godlike, it's just that his evil teammates steal his food when tournaments do not last three months.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 30 2019 00:50 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 00:37 deacon.frost wrote:On April 30 2019 00:03 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:46 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:40 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote:
[quote]
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year. Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic? It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me. That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2). So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it. In this situation both players can't prepare, then his mechanical prowess can and will prevail often, but what if a player can prepare for him, but he doesn't get to do the same to the extent that he needs to cover everything? That's my main point here, I think almost anyone in the top 25 can beat Maru if they play in an unorthodox way that targets his standard way of playing. Aw yeah, but for these builds applies another rule - when you see the build for the first time you are more vulnerable to it. That's what happened here IMO. Also Maru being Maru and way too aggressive when he doesn't have to be. His TvInnovation being bad in LotV wasn't even a question. EDit> On April 29 2019 22:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:On April 29 2019 22:05 Ej_ wrote:
[quote]
Yes, I know you say it every time Maru plays anything. We got the hint. He's the best and just disrespects Stats/Patience/doesn't try Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year. Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic? It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me. That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2). So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it. Then again, why doesn't Maru win weekenders? He suffers from travelling? He disrespect his opponents or doesn't care about 280k tournaments? If weekenders would made of bo1 series the fact Maru was a successful ace in Proleague(and he still delivers the most recent Chinese one) would effectively counter my argument. I am not saying Jin Air is the sole reason of his success, it would be silly: his mechanics are top notch and he won Korean tournaments when KeSpa was still around. As for Patience, we will see. Shape can look wildly different from one day to another, Sc2 is indeed a volatile game, 2018 almost made us forget it; players can as well get better, Patience seems on the rise to me. IEM 2018 - lost to a teammate Blizzcon 2018 - lost to a teammate IEM 2019 - every Terran was bad So, let's talk about the fact that using teamkills isn't exactly wise as they have been producing wrong results for over 9 years now, or let's not, because that way your theory wouldn't be quite good, would it? Edit of edit> and I am mentioning this for 50th time again too. That's why I need that ignore function You make it looks like your answer is evidently right and you have to remind me of that every time xD Speaking of nine years, Maru only won one weekender in that timespan and your explanation by saying he never cared enough and, when he did, he was constantly stopped by teammates? One of the brightest part of Maru's career was his ability of beating Protoss in 2014 and generally to be unaffected by balance and now the opposite happened at IEM 2019? No, thank you; you are free to believe whatever you want, I'll stick with Ishinshishi's theory which seems to be much more fitting. You mentioned 280k tournaments, we were talking about the biggest tourneys we have which are IEM and Blizzcon, now you had to back paddled to the "1 weekender" theme. The same way you are free to believe w/e you want but somehow you feel strong to convince me to switch believes to your nonsense. Which doesn't work, duh. Not sure if you're just trolling or what... but hey, w/e I mentioned BlizzCon because Maru openly stated it was his goal to win it, so that you cannot answer with the real nonsense saying he did not care enough; the point has always been why Maru performs so much better at preparation formats. You are way beyond anyone's reach, don't worry, I'm not even remotely interested in trying to convince you; still, I cannot passively accept your idea for which there is no real explanation and Maru is truly godlike, it's just that his evil teammates steal his food when tournaments do not last three months.
Yet you keep replying to me like you want to, isn't that weird?
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On April 30 2019 01:19 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 00:50 Xain0n wrote:On April 30 2019 00:37 deacon.frost wrote:On April 30 2019 00:03 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:46 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:40 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic? It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me. That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2). So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it. In this situation both players can't prepare, then his mechanical prowess can and will prevail often, but what if a player can prepare for him, but he doesn't get to do the same to the extent that he needs to cover everything? That's my main point here, I think almost anyone in the top 25 can beat Maru if they play in an unorthodox way that targets his standard way of playing. Aw yeah, but for these builds applies another rule - when you see the build for the first time you are more vulnerable to it. That's what happened here IMO. Also Maru being Maru and way too aggressive when he doesn't have to be. His TvInnovation being bad in LotV wasn't even a question. EDit> On April 29 2019 22:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:32 deacon.frost wrote:On April 29 2019 22:29 Xain0n wrote:On April 29 2019 22:21 IshinShishi wrote:On April 29 2019 22:11 Fango wrote:
[quote]
Feel free to present another explanation as to why he has consistently been sloppy in the ro32 yet almost been untouchable in the playoffs for over a year.
Is Maru just better against tougher competition? Or are Patience/Zanster/Leenock/Ragnarok/Keen just better than Stats/TY/Dark/Rogue/Gumiho/Classic? It makes a lot more sense to say that Maru plays much better and at his peak when he gets to prepare extensively (mostly due to the help of his teammates and coach) for one player instead of playing like he would on the fly/ on ladder/weekenders plus he is a mechanical god, and sometimes being a god lets him pull through despite his wonky suboptimal on-the-fly play, but if he doesn't have the perfect setup he is very beatable by a lot of players that don't play standard and that he didn't study/prepare for enough, that's the most logical explanation to me. That's exactly what I think; it explains well both why he lost at BlizzCon and why Maru is the one benefitting the most of Jin Air's teamhouse(he is a mechanichal monster but his decisions on the fly aren't the best; when you give him time to prepare and builds to execute, he is the fittest to succeed with them on top of how well he plays sc2). So why he had ace kills in PL? You can't fully prepare on that format... this simply doesn't make sense but I'm just mentioning this for like 50th time again and you will ignore it again or dismiss it. Then again, why doesn't Maru win weekenders? He suffers from travelling? He disrespect his opponents or doesn't care about 280k tournaments? If weekenders would made of bo1 series the fact Maru was a successful ace in Proleague(and he still delivers the most recent Chinese one) would effectively counter my argument. I am not saying Jin Air is the sole reason of his success, it would be silly: his mechanics are top notch and he won Korean tournaments when KeSpa was still around. As for Patience, we will see. Shape can look wildly different from one day to another, Sc2 is indeed a volatile game, 2018 almost made us forget it; players can as well get better, Patience seems on the rise to me. IEM 2018 - lost to a teammate Blizzcon 2018 - lost to a teammate IEM 2019 - every Terran was bad So, let's talk about the fact that using teamkills isn't exactly wise as they have been producing wrong results for over 9 years now, or let's not, because that way your theory wouldn't be quite good, would it? Edit of edit> and I am mentioning this for 50th time again too. That's why I need that ignore function You make it looks like your answer is evidently right and you have to remind me of that every time xD Speaking of nine years, Maru only won one weekender in that timespan and your explanation by saying he never cared enough and, when he did, he was constantly stopped by teammates? One of the brightest part of Maru's career was his ability of beating Protoss in 2014 and generally to be unaffected by balance and now the opposite happened at IEM 2019? No, thank you; you are free to believe whatever you want, I'll stick with Ishinshishi's theory which seems to be much more fitting. You mentioned 280k tournaments, we were talking about the biggest tourneys we have which are IEM and Blizzcon, now you had to back paddled to the "1 weekender" theme. The same way you are free to believe w/e you want but somehow you feel strong to convince me to switch believes to your nonsense. Which doesn't work, duh. Not sure if you're just trolling or what... but hey, w/e I mentioned BlizzCon because Maru openly stated it was his goal to win it, so that you cannot answer with the real nonsense saying he did not care enough; the point has always been why Maru performs so much better at preparation formats. You are way beyond anyone's reach, don't worry, I'm not even remotely interested in trying to convince you; still, I cannot passively accept your idea for which there is no real explanation and Maru is truly godlike, it's just that his evil teammates steal his food when tournaments do not last three months. Yet you keep replying to me like you want to, isn't that weird?
If I didn't want to reply to such statements I'd have never created my account on Team Liquid.
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On April 30 2019 00:20 M2 wrote:
As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents.
right on target with this comment. I don't have much BW experience, but it's the same story with wc3. you can get pretty damn far behind and still claw your way back if you are the better player. in sc2 you are absolutely fucked if you get behind, no matter how mechanically / strategically gifted you are. vP? no chance of comeback. vT? almost no chance. vZ? maybe you can make some magic happen in this match-up, but nothing like the comebacks of wc3
half-way through the defense against the adepts, you could have swapped patience with a 5.1k amateur protoss player and maru still would have lost
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On April 30 2019 03:22 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 00:20 M2 wrote:
As a person who joined SC2 community recently but with a lot of BW experience, my opinion regarding Maru arguments is that SC2 looks to me as a much more let me find the word...I guess much more exploitable game, there are way too many ways to lose or to win. No matter how good you are prepared, how good is your macro, micro etc. you cant even get close to patch all the holes that can lose you a game. In that sense, players like Flash, Jaedong, Iloveoov etc from BW who were able to dominate every single game they played does not look achievable in SC2, at least in the state the game is atm, cannot comment for the previous expansions. So what Maru is doing atm is as close to what the BW bonjwas were doing as much as the game he plays allows it. Just my 2 cents. right on target with this comment. I don't have much BW experience, but it's the same story with wc3. you can get pretty damn far behind and still claw your way back if you are the better player. in sc2 you are absolutely fucked if you get behind, no matter how mechanically / strategically gifted you are. vP? no chance of comeback. vT? almost no chance. vZ? maybe you can make some magic happen in this match-up, but nothing like the comebacks of wc3 half-way through the defense against the adepts, you could have swapped patience with a 5.1k amateur protoss player and maru still would have lost
This is wrong. Huge comebacks are possible, especially in TvP and TvZ
I don't know what to tell you if you think a 5.1 k MMR protoss couldve controlled the adepts like that to finish off literally Maru
All the bonjwas except 1 were Terran players. Terran is broken in BW. Siege tanks and vultures dwarf every other unit in BW in terms of capability per cost (both resource and supply) That's why the bonjwas can dominate like that. Don't get me wrong the Terran bonjwas were skilled but so were the protoss dragons and jaedong and they were never able to enter bonjwa territory. the one non-terran bonjwa was involved in match fixing
sc2 also has almost same degree of of comeback potential as in wc3 if the skill difference is there.
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daaaaaaaaaaaamn. G5L trophy goes back in the closet
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Hopefully we can finaly see another zerg champion
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EPT
