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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On June 16 2019 23:43 renaissanceMAN wrote: How does Thor/Hellbat win you the game though? Thor/Hellbat just seem to evaporate against Hydralisks. Also just accidentally voted against Taeja fuck. Dude Taeja is fine, and so is Inno =P | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 16 2019 23:43 renaissanceMAN wrote: How does Thor/Hellbat win you the game though? Thor/Hellbat just seem to evaporate against Hydralisks. Also just accidentally voted against Taeja fuck. You're skipping the tank part of the composition lol 6 or so tanks behind thorns and hellbats will eat hydras alive Serral wasn't going hydras that game anyway. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24931 Posts
On June 17 2019 01:00 BerserkSword wrote: You're skipping the tank part of the composition lol 6 or so tanks behind thorns and hellbats will eat hydras alive Serral wasn't going hydras that game anyway. I think Serral is happy enough if you transition. Those nyduses are there to pin you back from encroaching on his side of the map. If you transition to tank based comps or whatever, especially after initially starting with cyclone/hellion, you have to cede map presence, plus a wonky transition phase Basically either I can pin you back, or you can pin yourself back while you’re building a big enough mech ball to do a push, I think Serral is super comfortable with either scenario I look forward to more Serral versus Terran, especially the top Korean guys to see if he keeps lategame nyduses as a part of his gameplan and how they deal with them. Remembered the other game I saw him was the last WCS vs Time, worth a watch too. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On June 16 2019 20:33 Morbidius wrote: Rain was kinda robbed, players who were very good in HOTS have it the worst in these discussions. They don't have multiple premier tournaments to boost up their resumé, nor do they have the recency bias. The most forgotten good player is Byul, the guy was a monster in 2015 ByuL losing in the group stage is the biggest bust, with MKP at 64th a close second, but overall there are not that many cleary wrong results, just a few small one (Roro/Sniper/Squirtle out in group stage) Rain at 17th is not that crazy to me, Solar, Polt and maybe MMA are the only one I could argue should be behind him. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15914 Posts
On June 17 2019 08:48 Nakajin wrote: Rain at 17th is not that crazy to me, Solar, Polt and maybe MMA are the only one I could argue should be behind him. PartinG? MC? NesTea? TaeJa? | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6860 Posts
And about fun discussions! You can't derivate a top 10 list out of the results cause of some unfortunate match ups in earlier rounds  | ||
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BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On June 17 2019 05:32 Wombat_NI wrote: I think Serral is happy enough if you transition. Those nyduses are there to pin you back from encroaching on his side of the map. If you transition to tank based comps or whatever, especially after initially starting with cyclone/hellion, you have to cede map presence, plus a wonky transition phase Basically either I can pin you back, or you can pin yourself back while you’re building a big enough mech ball to do a push, I think Serral is super comfortable with either scenario I look forward to more Serral versus Terran, especially the top Korean guys to see if he keeps lategame nyduses as a part of his gameplan and how they deal with them. Remembered the other game I saw him was the last WCS vs Time, worth a watch too. Swarm hosts + nydus only work that well against the old battlemech comp Clem chose to go with the older battlemech comp for some reason (the modern battlemech has banshees, which wouldve easily handled that swarm host nydus play). A transition is vital for the Terran player to win in the late game if it's the old style. Cyclones just do not cut it at that point because the new cyclone dynamics is reliant on the hit and run nature of lock on. Youre right that serral was probably comfortable going up against a thor/siege unit push, but that's more a testament to how the old battlemech doesnt work too well in the face of modern zerg players' swarm host counters - serral built up a big lead at that point. Clem never even gave himself a chance by not transitioning though. When Serral fights the modern battlemech (hellion + banshee/battlecruiser + cyclone) he doesnt rely on swarm hosts nearly as much, or just doesnt build them. Like against gumiho's battlemech at IEM, and heromarine's battlemech at WCS winter, he didn't build swarm hosts since they used the banshee variant. Against special's BC battlemech at the last WCS, he sacked his swarmhosts early What I found interesting is that innovation did not use mech a single time against serral at wesg finals. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
Parting yes, the three other no, maybe if he had played longuer, but as it is he only has 2 Korean Starleague and 3 weekender with 2 of them, WCS Asia and HSC, having reasonable opposition (3 pvp vs Korean in the first one and 2 match vs korean in the second one) and and a very good proleague reccord. Nestea has the 3 GSL in under a year and MC also has 2 GSL, but a lot more win and podium under his belt and TaeJa just has a lot more wins even tho he's missing the GSL I think it's enough. Rain is about equal with MMA in my mind, of course Rain didn't have a lot of opportunity to play outside of Korea but I don't think he can be higher than 12-13 with what he has, outside of his two Starleague run, but followed immediately followed by a tournament win he only has the one Kespa Cup. It's an era thing as well, Rain is somewhere between the 3rd and 5th best Protoss of the Kespa era with Classic and herO (I would put him 4th behind herO personnaly) so if you have him in the top 10 you need to also put them in, especially because they played for longer than him and also won thing in LoTV and quick enough you have a to 10 that is half composed of Kespa protoss. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
Match 1  TaeJa: 54 votes Solar: 10 votesTaeJa goes to the round of 8!Match 2 INnoVation: 59 votes Classic: 7 votesINnoVation is in the quarter and we are in for a rematch of one of the greatest game ever to be played. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
Theses polls are closed Match 3: soO vs herO[jOin]soO highlight: ex aequo: soO vs Zest GSL 2014 Season 3 semi-final, game 7. AND soO vs Serral IEM Katowice 2019 round of 8, game 3+ Show Spoiler + https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nL7bXYKUkLg&list=PLFVgw8Tv8pV0rufNHZ4J7jgsUp48k406D&index=24&t=473s + Show Spoiler + https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wAgejOzfkPg One game isn't enough to display all of soO brilliance so I chose 2 of them. The first one was the cornerstone of soO curse, in his final GSL run of HoTS soO faced the best protoss player in the world, back then he had lost 3 consecutive GSL final, all to protoss player as it seemed like the later could be his problem more than the former. The start of the series certainly give credit to that idea, Zest gave himself a comfortable 3-1 lead and looked garante of a duel vs INnovation in the final. What come next is a brillant display of soO unbrokable spirit, as he come down with the next 2 games in close situation, and finally on Foxtrot Labs soO ling-roach attack at Zest third was deflected and the Starcraft history tells us were in for a innevitable protoss win as a low tech zerg get run over, instead soO seemingly had an unlimited amount of units as he kept on barreling down roaches for ever stopping the +2 immortals blink army of Zest until he reach mutalisk and went on to his 4th grand final. The whole series was one of the most impressive comeback in GSL and almost gave hope to the fan he would ''finally'' has his title, of course non of it happen, he went on to lose 2 more final in the next week, this time against a zerg and terran and was in for many more to come. It was until this second game. IEM Katowice is close enough to us to remember that everyone else had forgotten about soO appart for the eternal memes and a disapointing group stage wasn't gonna help us giving him credit before his confrontation against the world champion. It has been a long time soO had lost throne, once the undisputed best zvz player in the world, he had been overtook in Korea by Rogue and Dark playing more complex and diverse composition. On the opposite side, Serral was comming of a nearly perfect year of zvz acheived by dragging his opponent into the late game and drowing them, but when Serral challenge the roach king to his own game he was in for a nasty surprise.Game 3 devolved into a well named slug fest, as soO apparent stubornest to stay on a pure roach ravager army turn out to out to be the good call and he became the first player to world champion, saved his tournament run and as you guys may remember had a pretty good end of the tournament. herO[jOin] highlight: HerO vs Rain IEM San Jose 2014, game 5+ Show Spoiler + https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JxRbz9NFWs8&t=684s After being crush in back to back final against sOs at IEM Katowice and Zest at Kespa Cup he seemed to be ready to lose yet another pvp final. This time it was a a revitalize Rain that stand in front of him and was trying to innovate the protoss meta once again with a bunch of templar build. On Overgrowth Rain didn't go for the storm drop and instead went the way of the most traditionnal chargelot archons composition. After herO understood what was going on he stayed defensive but after a while he thought he could pounce on half of Rain army but instead he walk right into a trap. Rain got the full surround and everyone thought he had found the winning move. Instead it was a moment to see CJ herO trademark quick thinking as he perfectly micro out of the surround, splitting his zealot to wall off Rain away from his tech unit on both side, while making sure his collossus lazers do the job, in one of the best (understable) pvp fight. Also now that I have met my pvp cota, you can also go watch herO vs HyuN at IEM Katowice game 4. Match 4 Polt vs NesTeaPolt highlight: Polt vs Hydra WCS 2015 season 1, game 6+ Show Spoiler + https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_TqWphRI5YM From one of the most prolifict highlight maker in Starcraft 2 history, I propose you his last tournament final. Hydra was looking like the man to ruin Polt WCS party after the ban of Koreans. The former CJ zerg beat Polt in group and swept his playoff bracket as his terran opponent struggle all the way to the final and continue to do so, getting down 1-3 in the grand final. Comeback usually involved some kind of switch up in style, for exemple Soulkey busting out the roach-bane build in GSL final, instead Polt stay true to his style and played to last three game with frentic biomine vs LBM macro games. It lead to one of the better final of SC2, with game 6 beeing the best of the best, and giving bio tvz his last great classic.Polt dedication to beeing the greatest show in Starcraft hurt him a lot of time especially in zvt, meching or cheesing the final would have be the easy solution but it's also what made him one of the most popular player around and be in more memorable game than almost anyone. NesTea highlight: NesTea vs sC GSL May 2011 semi-final, game 5+ Show Spoiler + https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9zGvYYm4g&t=769s The best game you never watch. The start of Starcraft 2 was a whole different world and to understand early players greatness we need to look back at it. A quick way to look at it would be that the players didn't understand know how the game work, and while it's certainly a part of it, a good part of it was there was nothing to understand. Crossfire was considered one of the better map at the time, and I mean just look at this thing. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/BTjTmlH.jpg) The third is like 5 screen away from both the natural and the main and has a main base ramp and as anyone who ever played a game of Starcraft realize, it make it a very jucy target for a tank push, something SC and Nestea realize just as well. After an early defense on the first push, Nestea was unable to stop SC getting the strong siege position in the middle of the map and was on the back foot for the rest of the game, and by back foot I mean he looked like he was 100% dead for 5 minutes. The rest of the game is a textbook exemple to play zerg from behind, Nestea giving ground as slowly as possible forcing SC to siege and unsiege while countering the terran economy and isolating his stronger army until he enventualy was able to stop it at the exact time as it hit his bases. Polls are open until Sathurday June 22 around 8pm EST Theses polls are closed | ||
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Moonerz
United States444 Posts
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Jealous
10115 Posts
On June 20 2019 13:08 Moonerz wrote: It's still early but I'm surprised to see soO beating herO. herO won multiple IEMs and was an absolute killer in Proleague. soO was far and away the best and most consistent Zerg for what felt like forever, even though he didn't win the tournaments he made it to. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Proko
United States1022 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
Plus Nestea basically completely fell off by 2012 and afterwards, whereas Polt was a consistent tournament contendor (and champion) up until when he went to the military. | ||
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
Polt's tournament victories aside from the LG 3D super tourney were in semi region-locked tournaments (WCS) or mixed fields with limited korean presence (exception: MLG spring 2013 which had some kespa players). It's not to say that these tournaments were easy to win - they still had some strong korean players and the strongest foreigners, but in the context of sc2 history you can't possibly call WCS NA/EU premier a harder tournament than a GSL, blizzcon, IEM katowice... etc. And so compared to players like inno or maru who have won multiple korean-dominated tournaments (e.g. GSL, IEM Katowice), I think it's fair to comment that polt's performance hasn't really rivalled these S+ tier players. I would place the likes of rogue, sos above polt as well. Personally, though, I still think polt has had a way longer period of competitiveness and didn't ever fall off the map the way nestea did. He may never have done exceptionally well in GSL but he was winning tournaments through 3 expansions and was an obvious contender + fan favourite for tournaments the entire time. P.S. fun forgotten fact: Polt's furthest run in the GSL was August 2011; he was beaten by TOP aka Kiwian in the semis (if you don't consider his super tourney a GSL) | ||
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Moonerz
United States444 Posts
On June 20 2019 13:56 Jealous wrote: soO was far and away the best and most consistent Zerg for what felt like forever, even though he didn't win the tournaments he made it to. Back to back seasons leading Proleague in wins, 3 IEMs, Kespa Cup and an SSL in that same 2-3 year window is pretty dominant to me. That tops any period of dominance that soO has had. But soO is crushing in the voting | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 20 2019 22:32 Moonerz wrote: Back to back seasons leading Proleague in wins, 3 IEMs, Kespa Cup and an SSL in that same 2-3 year window is pretty dominant to me. That tops any period of dominance that soO has had. But soO is crushing in the voting I agree. soO is undoubtly a great Zerg player but I guess the sympathy for his story here weights more than his actual accomplisments when compared to herO's ; the voting should at least be close, herO's victories can't be dismissed this easily. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
On June 20 2019 22:37 Xain0n wrote: I agree. soO is undoubtly a great Zerg player but I guess the sympathy for his story here weights more than his actual accomplisments when compared to herO's ; the voting should at least be close, herO's victories can't be dismissed this easily. I agree that it's very close, but soO edge it out with the fact that he was the best zerg for a long time, even including a certain somebody he was clearly the best of his race in 2014 and in 2016, while herO wasn't really + soO usualy delivered in the big tournament while herO usually has his best results in smaller stuff (altought he actually won a bunch of event so that one can both way) Polt-Nestea is even harder for me, altought it's a bit of bracket luck for both. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15914 Posts
On June 20 2019 22:37 Xain0n wrote: I agree. soO is undoubtly a great Zerg player but I guess the sympathy for his story here weights more than his actual accomplisments when compared to herO's ; the voting should at least be close, herO's victories can't be dismissed this easily. when 2 players are very close in results but most people agree that one is slightly ahead of the other one the results still turn out to be one-sided. I think this is the case here. | ||
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