EPTThe narrative of soO is a huge chapter in Starcraft history, far more important than that of herO, and I'm fine with him being considered "greater" because of it.
Team Liquid Greatest of All Time Contest - Page 63
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
The narrative of soO is a huge chapter in Starcraft history, far more important than that of herO, and I'm fine with him being considered "greater" because of it. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 21 2019 04:30 pvsnp wrote: soO and herO might be close achievements-wise but everybody is familiar with soO's story and struggle, whereas far fewer people know or care about herO's career in the same way. And you might say that's unfair, but soO paid a steep price for that recognition. The narrative of soO is a huge chapter in Starcraft history, far more important than that of herO, and I'm fine with him being considered "greater" because of it. soO's story seems a very good reason to root for him, to me, but I don't think it makes him greater. Charoisaur might be right. | ||
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JJH777
United States4376 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 21 2019 10:36 JJH777 wrote: A 2nd place in GSL is worth more than basically any other tournament. Even if it has a similar player pool no other tournaments have the prep factor, no jet lag, fully rested players in peak condition who have been focused on the matchup they are about to play, etc. That's why soO is far superior to herO. I'll be the devil's advocate and say that there's the argument that getting 6 GSL silvers but no gold makes you a choker which detracts from your greatness. And herO does have a Starleague gold. | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
On June 21 2019 10:36 JJH777 wrote: A 2nd place in GSL is worth more than basically any other tournament. Even if it has a similar player pool no other tournaments have the prep factor, no jet lag, fully rested players in peak condition who have been focused on the matchup they are about to play, etc. That's why soO is far superior to herO. i love soO and i voted for him but sorry, gotta call you out on this line of argumentation. your argument doesn't make any sense because these conditions apply to every player in the GSL, including soO. everybody gets to prep for him, he gets to prep for them too. they're not jetlagged, neither is he. etc.... | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
He does not belong in the RO8, and absolutely not at the expense of soO, who is miles ahead as a player. Fortunately, the voting shows that. 45 to 4 now is it? As one-sided as it should be. | ||
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HolydaKing
21253 Posts
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Philozovic
France1676 Posts
On June 20 2019 22:32 Moonerz wrote: Back to back seasons leading Proleague in wins, 3 IEMs, Kespa Cup and an SSL in that same 2-3 year window is pretty dominant to me. That tops any period of dominance that soO has had. But soO is crushing in the voting First IEM he won hero beat all the WOL old guard. That could have been a feat if it wasn't late 2013 on HOTS : dream bomber in groupe stage MVP in ro8 DRG on ro4 (that was the last ro4 drg ever made in premier) and the oh so frightening San in finals. Fun fact because you seems to rank proleague so highly effort and Hydra where the only proleague players to play in this tourney. What a way to start a period of dominance Second IEM is even better Lost to polt and beats kelazhur and tunico on groupe stage then major in the ro8 tlo in the ro4 and the 500k Man all won by crushing lesser players MC. If that's not dominance what is It's not over though after being exposed as the fraud that he is by sOs in IEM World losing against the first kespa player he faced in three IEM he won his third IEM which was a bo7 showmatch between him and Rain as he was as Always the only Kespa player of the tourney. Before that he beat the usual pack of second/third tier Korean and snute His great achievement (and it is one) is ssl 3 in 2015 His only other meaningfull win was kespa cup 2015 he also got second in 2014 by being in the easy part of the bracket As for the most win in proleague he also had the most loses he was the most field player in a team that wasn't in the finals By no mean hero is bad but he was never dominant soO has 6 gsl finals 4 in a row during a year and a half none outside his nerves bested him in gsl. i don't care of any other achievement he has. 6 gsl finals period | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On June 21 2019 19:55 Philozovic wrote: First IEM he won hero beat all the WOL old guard. That could have been a feat if it wasn't late 2013 on HOTS : dream bomber in groupe stage MVP in ro8 DRG on ro4 (that was the last ro4 drg ever made in premier) and the oh so frightening San in finals. Fun fact because you seems to rank proleague so highly effort and Hydra where the only proleague players to play in this tourney. What a way to start a period of dominance Second IEM is even better Lost to polt and beats kelazhur and tunico on groupe stage then major in the ro8 tlo in the ro4 and the 500k Man all won by crushing lesser players MC. If that's not dominance what is It's not over though after being exposed as the fraud that he is by sOs in IEM World losing against the first kespa player he faced in three IEM he won his third IEM which was a bo7 showmatch between him and Rain as he was as Always the only Kespa player of the tourney. Before that he beat the usual pack of second/third tier Korean and snute His great achievement (and it is one) is ssl 3 in 2015 His only other meaningfull win was kespa cup 2015 he also got second in 2014 by being in the easy part of the bracket As for the most win in proleague he also had the most loses he was the most field player in a team that wasn't in the finals By no mean hero is bad but he was never dominant soO has 6 gsl finals 4 in a row during a year and a half none outside his nerves bested him in gsl. i don't care of any other achievement he has. 6 gsl finals period This is quite spot on. I dont get the hype around herO at all... He is the prime example of a patchtoss. Just think about his periods of domination. First the blink mothersip core era where he abused aggressive OP blink builds and hidden immortal pushes. When nerfs came in he layed lower for a while. Then the adept era, he was abusing adept phoenix like no other player could, he looked very strong then, but again only because of an inbalanced patch. Once adepts got nerfed, he dissappeared completely, falled to the bottom for a long time and reappeared only recently, when surprise surprise, protoss is at its strongest again  His pro-league record is largely inflated because he was the only good player in his team and played basically every match every time. And he has only 1 starleague win. Realistically, herO is top 20 all time at best, maybe not even, and that is still good, but comparing him to the likes of soO is just laughable. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
Match 3  soO: 49 votes herO[jOin]: 6 votessoO goes through!Match 4  Polt: 21 votesNesTea 34 votesNesTea goes through and we are guarantee at least 1 zerg and 1 terran in the round of 4! | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
Theses polls are closed Match 5: MMA vs MaruMMA highlight: MMA vs DRG Blizzard cup 2011 final game 7 (although the full series deserve a watch)+ Show Spoiler + The definite game of the glory day of pre-Kespa Korean StarCraft and most likely the best final map of a tournament we ever had. Coming in a game 7 after starting up 3-0 on the world biggest stage was a terrible situation for MMA, most other would have crumble, but MMA somehow got his head into the game and gave us almost 40 minutes of a razor edge back and forth macro game, where he had to not only fight non stop to establish his half map economy and stopping the DRG from growing, but also always keep in check the tech switches of the zerg. And of course all of theses 40 minutes of decisions, moves and conter-moves ending up in a single final yes or no question: Can MMA stop DRG brood lords to get to his production? All of hit with the roaring of the crowd and a top tier performance from Tastosis made this game a worthy of MMA coronation as the best player in the world Maru highlight: Maru vs Cella GSL 1 round of 64 game 3+ Show Spoiler + Maru has one of the biggest library of game out there, even tho his high agression play style doesn't always make for the most entertaining of games almost 7 years of going deep in every tournament, a good number of ProLeague classic he goes to as well as an unparalleled 5 Korean league trophy tend to create a lot of highlights. Yet despite all of those I chose his first ever televise match, that came in the first ever week of competitive Starcraft 2 in Korea. His match was also surprisingly one of the most anticipated opening matches of the first round of GSL, the young 13 years old that manage to qualify certainly turn head (funilly enough the comparaison with a certain Baby was already made during his first ever match, a story line ending 8 year down the line) but his was mostly his adversary Cella playing in for the ''Werra'' clan that grabbed the attention. 10 years his elder Cella was one of the most popular Korean in the western land and one of the first streamer of the game as well as a TeamLiquid forum poster, hopes were high for him. Instead the little Maru, looking just as bored as he is now, brought on the show and brought Cella to the brink of tears. After an agressive spire play from Cella (I'm talking of course about the good old 1 base-2 spines-2 queens-no creep spire play) destabilize Maru, who managed to got a thor just in time, the whole affair devolve into a 1 base vs 1 base 20 minutes game worthy of the depth of the NA ladder. Now I could try to tell you that we already saw the making of legend in Maru, but outside of the signature nonchalant wrist spin, there's not a lot of the strategical and micro genius in this game. I didn't chose it because I wanted to show that Maru was able to leapfrog tank, but rather so we could see how much Maru has grown before our eyes. Having played is GSL match before Losira and GuMiho he has the longest SC2 carrer of any Korean player despite beeing one of the youngest. Maru whole life has been SC2, he's one of the only singular point we can track across the entire history of our game, and from his humble (yet successful) opening game to a 4 time back to back GSL champ we can follow his play getting better time and time again. Match 4: Stats vs MC Stats highlight: Stats vs soO 2016 Proleague round 2 playoff semi-final map 4+ Show Spoiler + The final year of Proleague was a great year for Stats, in 2016 he was still hadn't won a tournament, a final loss in SSL against Dark had earn him the respect from the fans, but his was his Proleague performance that really turn heads. The penultimate Kespa tournament had been the favorite playground of Stats since the start of his career, being one of the best player in proleague HOTS despite being a rather forgettable player individual tournament.The playoff of round 2 gave us yet another Telecom derby, Stats quickly cleave through the SKT team, putting his team up 3-0 until SKT chose soO to get the reverse all-kill. King Sejong station was the chosen map and the potential of the map was fully used, giving us yet another great macro game. Stats was the first to put on pressure, but very quickly he was put on the defensive and had to prove that he was in fact the ''Shield of Aiur'' defending soO lurker, lings and mutalisk and putting pressure while making sure to never fully commit until forcing the SKT zerg to launch a last ditch attack against him. MC highlight: MC vs IdrA MLG Providence 2011 winner bracket round 4 game 2It is surprisingly hard to find game from MC greatest day, all of his GSL march final seems to have been completely loss to history, so his a lot of the 2011-12 foreign tournament, yet there's one type of MC highlight that exist in drove on the Internet, video of MC shit talking other players and most of all IdrA. MC rivalry against IdrA is the type of narrative that a lot of people wanted to make happen for a long time, it was a mainstay of any MLG, almost every time IdrA would win the group or winner bracket matches but MC would win every time he needed to. The winner bracket at MLG Providence was the final great chapter of this rivalry, as MC demonstrated full dominance over the American champ. Beating IdrA is far from MC biggest SC2 achievement, but his legacy couldn't be understand without these MLG duels and the opportunity it made for him to garnish the love and support of fans. [spoiler]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brN5--qI9yM/spoiler] Theses polls are closed Theses polls are open until Wednesday June 26 around 8pm EST | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
Squirtle, Parting and Rain soon came and took away his thunder. His foreign sucess mostly came against lesser players. The best player MC ever beat in a final was Puma, a Terran who made his name by poaching weak foreign prey with imbalanced builds, almost a doppelganger of MC. Stats faced much stiffer competition, had to grind for years before he managed to earn his place among KT's greats, and finally earned his GSL in 2017. Stats so far has been THE protoss of LotV, being the "first best protoss" doesn't come close to that. As a final note i think sOs, Rain, Zest and maybe Classic deserve higher ranking than MC. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
On June 23 2019 12:03 Morbidius wrote: Stats vs MC is seemed hard at first, but i think MC was the "Best Protoss" for a very short time, after 2011 GSL march he had no results in korea until the dreaded PvP finals. Squirtle, Parting and Rain soon came and took away his thunder. His foreign sucess mostly came against lesser players. The best player MC ever beat in a final was Puma, a Terran who made his name by poaching weak foreign prey with imbalanced builds, almost a doppelganger of MC. Stats faced much stiffer competition, had to grind for years before he managed to earn his place among KT's greats, and finally earned his GSL in 2017. Stats so far has been THE protoss of LotV, being the "first best protoss" doesn't come close to that. As a final note i think sOs, Rain, Zest and maybe Classic deserve higher ranking than MC. yeah that sounds reasonable to me. Even if the achievements are close, it can't be ignored that Stats had very tough competition and also has great proleague records. | ||
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RatzBarcode
United States98 Posts
Stats is the best protoss of LOTV, over Classic I guess. But yeah, Rain, sOs, and maybe Zest have had nicer careers than MC. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On June 23 2019 18:53 Xain0n wrote: The anti-WoL bias is impressive. No WCS region locked tournaments in WoL.  | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Oh, I know! You can't look at NASL S1 and tell me it was Puma taking down weak foreigners, because foreigners weren't that weak in 2011(Huk was in Code S reaching ro8 at the time) and there were strong korean players in the lineup(Puma beat Squirtle, July and MC on his way to the title). MC was the best korean Protoss since the end of 2010 to mid 2012 until Rain came and PartinG exploded; in this first part of his career he won two Code S(only Zest has as many), the first HSC with koreans, IEM World Championship(it was held in Hanover, but it was the equivalent of Katowice) and Red Ball Austin(a tournament with PartinG, TaeJa, Stephano..ah, he beat Bomber in the finals, I guess he's stronger than Puma to your eyes as well?); he collected three second places and a third place in international tournaments as well, in this period. MC did not win anything on korean soil after his second Code S? Well, you forgot that no Protoss did in that whole year, NesTea then GomTvT into DRG. InCa, Genius, Oz, Squirtle proceeded to go further than MC in Code S but they didn't win and basically made a single each run each. Then Code S S3 2012 came, and MC got swept 1-4 in the finals by the likes of Seed, who seemed the best Protoss in the world for maybe five days(I remember watching that final, it was really disappointing; even more so in retrospective considering how volatile Seed's greatness was); just one month after, MC only got only stopped by the ascending TaeJa in ASUS ROG Summer whose ro4 was completely korean. Before KeSpa, MC was THE best korean Protoss, without any doubt(HerO had fewer international success and no korean titles at all). In HoTS, MC(clearly past his prime) reinvented himself and went to Europe to chase easier titles in a scenario where the best non korean player was barely worth of reaching the Global Finals and any top 50 korean had a shot to win a foreign tournament; that probably what you guys remember him for, yet he collected one WCS title against MMA(another one who, we can agree on, is a better player than PuMa) and five other silver(for a total of 10, not even soO lost as many Premier finals). Is MC's career greater than Stats'? I think sobut it's very close, Stats in LoTV has been, after a Zest prologue, the best Protoss alongside Classic. Also, he has the best record in Proleague bar none(5-2 in ace matches, almost the same win ratio as Maru with 15 more wins, the same all kill number of Inno). | ||
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Philozovic
France1676 Posts
On June 23 2019 18:53 Xain0n wrote: The anti-WoL bias is impressive. Well not really the 3 best players in WoL are ofter ranked very high : MVP/taeja/you know who MMA as good as he was is clearly behind Maru MC is by far the most over-rated player of all Time because he was the best at crushing lesser player. He won two gsl code S The first one he beated Odin who qualified twice for open Season 2 and 3 Lost in the opening round never to qualify again hyperdub a random terran whose greatest achievement is a top 16 in the first code S Julyzerg one of the best zerg at the time who fade away pretty quickly Marineking most likely the best terran at that Time Jinro foreign Monster and one of the best terran for a few months Rain in the finals who never made it past ro32 ever again So to win a GSL MC had to beat three worthy opponents (even if the only really good one was mkp) the others where a bunch of low tier Scrubs who where there only because the game was so fresh His second gsl he beat July and hyperdub again in bo1 (Monster feat) Byun who became good much later even if he made a ro4 latter in the year Hongun a random protoss who made some splash in the gsl in 2011 only to disapered as soon as the competition got better San not even gonna comment on the fact that you could face San in early 2011 to go to the finals July zerg again in the finals In two GSL mc only had to beat one of the great of History "But MC was so good outside of gsl" let see about that MLG : In 2011 when he was among the first Korean to be invited he went 3rd at Colombus and 2nd at Orlando 6th at providence everytime the script was the same beats a bunch of foreigners and some low tier koreans (plus mkp) wins against Idra loses against Huk Not Really worthy of one of the goat 2012 is way worse as more good Korean where able to travel mc never made it past 4th place 6 MLG and only two better results than ro8 IEM ? 2nd at Cologne losing to the only other Korean the great puma Won iem World by going 3-2 in groupe stage against a bunch of foreigners and somehow still toping the group then beating violet in ro8 the great Feast un semis and again puma in finals The next Season top 8 at Cologne getting 3-0 by nerchio then top 8 at Singapore getting 3-2 by grubby and didn't get out of group stage in IEM world being in a group with Yoda ret and first ... (Now kids remember of serral 5 wcs in a row) NASL ? 2nd by beating boxer select and sen in NASL1 before losing to puma again in the final 3rd by beating puma and a bunch of foreigner in NASL3 TSL3 ? Top8 losing to Thorzain Results before the region lock are meuh at best after the region. Lock he farmed the third division for 2 years and lost in first round at blizzcon twice The fact the MC is rank above DRG for example is beyond me he was a good player with a loud fucking mouth who embarrassed players with cheesy plays. The only reason he won that much money is because he rack up many top8+ by being able to fly 3 times more than everybody else by being famous his "fun personality" Edit : On June 23 2019 23:38 Xain0n wrote: Oh, I know! You can't look at NASL S1 and tell me it was Puma taking down weak foreigners, because foreigners weren't that weak in 2011(Huk was in Code S reaching ro8 at the time) and there were strong korean players in the lineup(Puma beat Squirtle, July and MC on his way to the title). The fact that there were 5 good foreigners in 2011 (idra huk Nani sen and jinro/Thorzain) didn't change the fact that the rest were terrible. Squirtle was so good in 2011 he never qualify for a single code S The offline part of nasl was filled with second tier Korean moon and Squirtle weren't code S player alive was barely at that time MC and July were the only strong code S player and puma was a strong Korean in his foreign kingdom that's even more region lock than 2014 | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On June 23 2019 23:52 Philozovic wrote: Well not really the 3 best players in WoL are ofter ranked very high : MVP/taeja/you know who MMA as good as he was is clearly behind Maru MC is by far the most over-rated player of all Time because he was the best at crushing lesser player. He won two gsl code S The first one he beated Odin who qualified twice for open Season 2 and 3 Lost in the opening round never to qualify again hyperdub a random terran whose greatest achievement is a top 16 in the first code S Julyzerg one of the best zerg at the time who fade away pretty quickly Marineking most likely the best terran at that Time Jinro foreign Monster and one of the best terran for a few months Rain in the finals who never made it past ro32 ever again So to win a GSL MC had to beat three worthy opponents (even if the only really good one was mkp) the others where a bunch of low tier Scrubs who where there only because the game was so fresh His second gsl he beat July and hyperdub again in bo1 (Monster feat) Byun who became good much later even if he made a ro4 latter in the year Hongun a random protoss who made some splash in the gsl in 2011 only to disapered as soon as the competition got better San not even gonna comment on the fact that you could face San in early 2011 to go to the finals July zerg again in the finals In two GSL mc only had to beat one of the great of History "But MC was so good outside of gsl" let see about that MLG : In 2011 when he was among the first Korean to be invited he went 3rd at Colombus and 2nd at Orlando 6th at providence everytime the script was the same beats a bunch of foreigners and some low tier koreans (plus mkp) wins against Idra loses against Huk Not Really worthy of one of the goat 2012 is way worse as more good Korean where able to travel mc never made it past 4th place 6 MLG and only two better results than ro8 IEM ? 2nd at Cologne losing to the only other Korean the great puma Won iem World by going 3-2 in groupe stage against a bunch of foreigners and somehow still toping the group then beating violet in ro8 the great Feast un semis and again puma in finals The next Season top 8 at Cologne getting 3-0 by nerchio then top 8 at Singapore getting 3-2 by grubby and didn't get out of group stage in IEM world being in a group with Yoda ret and first ... (Now kids remember of serral 5 wcs in a row) NASL ? 2nd by beating boxer select and sen in NASL1 before losing to puma again in the final 3rd by beating puma and a bunch of foreigner in NASL3 TSL3 ? Top8 losing to Thorzain Results before the region lock are meuh at best after the region. Lock he farmed the third division for 2 years and lost in first round at blizzcon twice The fact the MC is rank above DRG for example is beyond me he was a good player with a loud fucking mouth who embarrassed players with cheesy plays. The only reason he won that much money is because he rack up many top8+ by being able to fly 3 times more then everybody else by being famous his "fun personality" Edit : The fact that they were 5 good foreigners in 2011 (idra huk Nani sen and jinro/Thorzain) didn't change the fact that the rest were terrible. Squirtle was so good in 2011 he never qualify for a single code S The offline part of nasl was filled with second tier Korean moon and Squirtle weren't code S player alive was barely at that time MC and July were the only strong code S player and puma was a strong Korean in his foreign kingdom that's even more region lock than 2014 Stephano, Dimaga, White Ra, Mana, Nerchio were not good enough in 2011? Also, from your analysis not only foreigner were "terrible", half of the koreans were. Judging players in retrospective is a risky business(San and HongUn were legit at the time, for example), Sc2 in his first years was quite a different game than it later became and many pioneers were playing, yet they were the best players for their times: if MC took down July in Code S finals when the latter was the best Zerg, it counts as winning against the best Zerg even if he retained that title for mere months: I wouldn't say this is a worse feat than Zest taking down soO when he was the best Zerg in the world(despite soO's career being way longer and more relevant in comparison to July's). You did not consider the fact Protoss were struggling in Korea in 2011; regarding his international success, MC surely travelled a lot but he was consistently good. During his era, he was the best Protoss in the world, even if now we can look down on his opponents since they didn't age well. Regardless of increased competition, he declined as a player after 2012. | ||
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