On September 05 2018 21:54 BisuDagger wrote: Oh man, great playing by Neeb. I feel like the draw game should have been given to Neeb, but that's just my heart talking right now. Hopefully TY can play really well in the finals.
TY thew the game by losing all the units in Neeb's main. Then Neeb threw it by not protecting any of his nexuses (or making a pheonix, he had a stargate and money for a quite a while during the basetrade iirc).
A draw seems as fair as you can get really. They both made game-losing mistake(s).
But switch that around and have Neeb make the big mistake of getting his army caught and TY having his CCs knocked out. In that base trade, TY wins easily.
On September 05 2018 21:54 BisuDagger wrote: Oh man, great playing by Neeb. I feel like the draw game should have been given to Neeb, but that's just my heart talking right now. Hopefully TY can play really well in the finals.
TY thew the game by losing all the units in Neeb's main. Then Neeb threw it by not protecting any of his nexuses (or making a pheonix, he had a stargate and money for a quite a while during the basetrade iirc).
A draw seems as fair as you can get really. They both made game-losing mistake(s).
But switch that around and have Neeb make the big mistake of getting his army caught and TY having his CCs knocked out. In that base trade, TY wins easily.
TvP is not a mirror on both sides, so the reverse sitation is kinda different.
Besides, if Neeb gets his army caught in TY's base he just recalls out
I know the rules, but still find stupid how a 0 supply player can force a draw against a 50 army supply player, just because he can lift off his buildings. That being said, after Neeb's push where sacrificed his army for worker kills it was TY's game to lose. It was 20 army supply vs. like 80, TY should have killed him right away... I also wanted Neeblet to advance, but if we are honest, TY was the better player today. Neeb was still impressive tough.
On September 05 2018 22:26 kajtarp wrote: I know the rules, but still find stupid how a 0 supply player can force a draw against a 50 army supply player, just because he can lift off his buildings. That being said, after Neeb's push where sacrificed his army for worker kills it was TY's game to lose. It was 20 army supply vs. like 80, TY should have killed him right away... I also wanted Neeblet to advance, but if we are honest, TY was the better player today. Neeb was still impressive tough.
Same can happen with 50 supply terran vs 2 supply protoss when that 2 supply is a DT.
On September 05 2018 22:26 kajtarp wrote: I know the rules, but still find stupid how a 0 supply player can force a draw against a 50 army supply player, just because he can lift off his buildings. That being said, after Neeb's push where sacrificed his army for worker kills it was TY's game to lose. It was 20 army supply vs. like 80, TY should have killed him right away... I also wanted Neeblet to advance, but if we are honest, TY was the better player today. Neeb was still impressive tough.
Same can happen with 50 supply terran vs 2 supply protoss when that 2 supply is a DT.
I mean it could happen, but that's not zero supply and it practically speaking doesn't happen so why mention it?
On September 05 2018 22:26 kajtarp wrote: I know the rules, but still find stupid how a 0 supply player can force a draw against a 50 army supply player, just because he can lift off his buildings. That being said, after Neeb's push where sacrificed his army for worker kills it was TY's game to lose. It was 20 army supply vs. like 80, TY should have killed him right away... I also wanted Neeblet to advance, but if we are honest, TY was the better player today. Neeb was still impressive tough.
Same can happen with 50 supply terran vs 2 supply protoss when that 2 supply is a DT.
I mean it could happen, but that's not zero supply and it practically speaking doesn't happen so why mention it?
Terran forcing draws almost never happens either (more often than other races though tbf)
On September 05 2018 22:26 kajtarp wrote: I know the rules, but still find stupid how a 0 supply player can force a draw against a 50 army supply player, just because he can lift off his buildings. That being said, after Neeb's push where sacrificed his army for worker kills it was TY's game to lose. It was 20 army supply vs. like 80, TY should have killed him right away... I also wanted Neeblet to advance, but if we are honest, TY was the better player today. Neeb was still impressive tough.
Same can happen with 50 supply terran vs 2 supply protoss when that 2 supply is a DT.
I mean it could happen, but that's not zero supply and it practically speaking doesn't happen so why mention it?
Terran forcing draws almost never happens either (more often than other races though tbf)
If people learn to recall in time every time draws will be a TvT only mechanic
On September 05 2018 22:26 kajtarp wrote: I know the rules, but still find stupid how a 0 supply player can force a draw against a 50 army supply player, just because he can lift off his buildings. That being said, after Neeb's push where sacrificed his army for worker kills it was TY's game to lose. It was 20 army supply vs. like 80, TY should have killed him right away... I also wanted Neeblet to advance, but if we are honest, TY was the better player today. Neeb was still impressive tough.
Same can happen with 50 supply terran vs 2 supply protoss when that 2 supply is a DT.
I mean it could happen, but that's not zero supply and it practically speaking doesn't happen so why mention it?
Terran forcing draws almost never happens either (more often than other races though tbf)
If people learn to recall in time every time draws will be a TvT only mechanic
With the way TvT is with tank stalemates and doomdrops, it pretty much already is
On September 05 2018 22:26 kajtarp wrote: I know the rules, but still find stupid how a 0 supply player can force a draw against a 50 army supply player, just because he can lift off his buildings. That being said, after Neeb's push where sacrificed his army for worker kills it was TY's game to lose. It was 20 army supply vs. like 80, TY should have killed him right away... I also wanted Neeblet to advance, but if we are honest, TY was the better player today. Neeb was still impressive tough.
Same can happen with 50 supply terran vs 2 supply protoss when that 2 supply is a DT.
I mean it could happen, but that's not zero supply and it practically speaking doesn't happen so why mention it?
It happened in Maru vs Has. Not exactly 50 vs 2 supply but similar.
How is Tasteless not constantly shitting himself? Artosis just keeps getting funnier.
On September 05 2018 22:26 kajtarp wrote: I know the rules, but still find stupid how a 0 supply player can force a draw against a 50 army supply player, just because he can lift off his buildings. That being said, after Neeb's push where sacrificed his army for worker kills it was TY's game to lose. It was 20 army supply vs. like 80, TY should have killed him right away... I also wanted Neeblet to advance, but if we are honest, TY was the better player today. Neeb was still impressive tough.
It seems a bit silly when it does happen, but I don't think two forced draws in GSL history indicate that there needs to be a change.
On September 05 2018 20:09 sneakyfox wrote: So did TY just figure out Neeb's weak spot?
Nah. He rammed home the natural on that base. Good use of map. Not necessarily indictive of how the other maps will play
If you're the real Feardragon it'd be nice for the staff to give you a Commentator badge or something.
Haha I'm not. It's a funny story. This username was literally from a random name generator when I played WoW in like 2008. I kept the username. The fact Feardragon's last name is Pareek is just really funny coincidence
This is a constant source hilarity to me as I see your name all the time. I always recognize you because of it but you usually have cool stuff to say. =D
On September 05 2018 22:26 kajtarp wrote: I know the rules, but still find stupid how a 0 supply player can force a draw against a 50 army supply player, just because he can lift off his buildings. That being said, after Neeb's push where sacrificed his army for worker kills it was TY's game to lose. It was 20 army supply vs. like 80, TY should have killed him right away... I also wanted Neeblet to advance, but if we are honest, TY was the better player today. Neeb was still impressive tough.
Same can happen with 50 supply terran vs 2 supply protoss when that 2 supply is a DT.
I mean it could happen, but that's not zero supply and it practically speaking doesn't happen so why mention it?
It happened in Maru vs Has. Not exactly 50 vs 2 supply but similar.
On September 05 2018 20:29 Koivusto wrote: The decisive moment was that late recall. If it would've been 3-1 and harder to lose from there.
It has been brought up before, but I do think that Terran's ability to lift up should be looked at. This was the tipping point between doing another game and Neeb going up 3-1. At 3-1, yes he could have won, but it would have also been a lot harder.
I know there are arguments like leaving 400 minerals to build a nexus or leaving enough money to build a phoenix or recalling like 10 seconds earlier. But I still see no rational argument as to why there isn't like a 5 minute floating timer on Terran buildings. It doesn't affect gameplay whatsoever (except that you couldn't use it as an eternal scout), and it's long enough that the Protoss does actually have to damage another building or enemy unit to extend the draw timer.
Because switch the situations around, where Terran has the bigger army but is out of position. In every situation with Zerg and Protoss, the Terran wins, but in every situation with the Zerg and Protoss, the Terran can force a draw. I don't really think that I've ever seen a situation like this where a single racial difference is the true tipping point between draw and loss.
It also affects the win condition. Terran's "win" condition isn't destroy all my opponent's buildings; it's destroy all my opponent's main bases. The win condition for any other opponent is to destroy all the opponent's buildings. So it fundamentally puts the Terran at an imbalanced position (from a standard win perspective). Even from a draw perspective, the P/Z has to whittle down the T enough so that their army cannot engage the P/Z army and vice versa, whereas the T just has to lift their buildings.
Again, in normal ladder games, this is fine. It's part of the game, but I don't think it should be a major decider in a tight series like this.
Neeb shouldn't even be in the game after donating 8 disruptors, he was down 20-30 army supply most of the game and kept being a threat solely because of disruptors, TvP was never like that, you can see how I can use your argument for anything that fits an agenda.
On September 05 2018 20:29 Koivusto wrote: The decisive moment was that late recall. If it would've been 3-1 and harder to lose from there.
It has been brought up before, but I do think that Terran's ability to lift up should be looked at. This was the tipping point between doing another game and Neeb going up 3-1. At 3-1, yes he could have won, but it would have also been a lot harder.
I know there are arguments like leaving 400 minerals to build a nexus or leaving enough money to build a phoenix or recalling like 10 seconds earlier. But I still see no rational argument as to why there isn't like a 5 minute floating timer on Terran buildings. It doesn't affect gameplay whatsoever (except that you couldn't use it as an eternal scout), and it's long enough that the Protoss does actually have to damage another building or enemy unit to extend the draw timer.
Because switch the situations around, where Terran has the bigger army but is out of position. In every situation with Zerg and Protoss, the Terran wins, but in every situation with the Zerg and Protoss, the Terran can force a draw. I don't really think that I've ever seen a situation like this where a single racial difference is the true tipping point between draw and loss.
It also affects the win condition. Terran's "win" condition isn't destroy all my opponent's buildings; it's destroy all my opponent's main bases. The win condition for any other opponent is to destroy all the opponent's buildings. So it fundamentally puts the Terran at an imbalanced position (from a standard win perspective). Even from a draw perspective, the P/Z has to whittle down the T enough so that their army cannot engage the P/Z army and vice versa, whereas the T just has to lift their buildings.
Again, in normal ladder games, this is fine. It's part of the game, but I don't think it should be a major decider in a tight series like this.
Neeb shouldn't even be in the game after donating 8 disruptors, he was down 20-30 army supply most of the game and kept being a threat solely because of disruptors, TvP was never like that, you can see how I can use your argument for anything that fits an agenda.
Let's not even talk about "mommy I fucked up" aka Recall.
On September 05 2018 20:29 Koivusto wrote: The decisive moment was that late recall. If it would've been 3-1 and harder to lose from there.
It has been brought up before, but I do think that Terran's ability to lift up should be looked at. This was the tipping point between doing another game and Neeb going up 3-1. At 3-1, yes he could have won, but it would have also been a lot harder.
I know there are arguments like leaving 400 minerals to build a nexus or leaving enough money to build a phoenix or recalling like 10 seconds earlier. But I still see no rational argument as to why there isn't like a 5 minute floating timer on Terran buildings. It doesn't affect gameplay whatsoever (except that you couldn't use it as an eternal scout), and it's long enough that the Protoss does actually have to damage another building or enemy unit to extend the draw timer.
Because switch the situations around, where Terran has the bigger army but is out of position. In every situation with Zerg and Protoss, the Terran wins, but in every situation with the Zerg and Protoss, the Terran can force a draw. I don't really think that I've ever seen a situation like this where a single racial difference is the true tipping point between draw and loss.
It also affects the win condition. Terran's "win" condition isn't destroy all my opponent's buildings; it's destroy all my opponent's main bases. The win condition for any other opponent is to destroy all the opponent's buildings. So it fundamentally puts the Terran at an imbalanced position (from a standard win perspective). Even from a draw perspective, the P/Z has to whittle down the T enough so that their army cannot engage the P/Z army and vice versa, whereas the T just has to lift their buildings.
Again, in normal ladder games, this is fine. It's part of the game, but I don't think it should be a major decider in a tight series like this.
Neeb shouldn't even be in the game after donating 8 disruptors, he was down 20-30 army supply most of the game and kept being a threat solely because of disruptors, TvP was never like that, you can see how I can use your argument for anything that fits an agenda.
The difference is that we're talking about situational events. TY and Neeb both made big mistakes; there is no doubt of that fact. I've seen doom drops break a Protoss in a winning situation. I've seen an archon toilet bring a lost game into a win. I've seen burrowed banelings cause a loss. A game is never played perfectly by either person.
My argument was and is based off of the fundamental principle around the basic win and draw conditions. Can you say that the draw condition is the same for P, Z, and T? T can disproportionately cause a draw because of lift off. They don't have to whittle down the army into a no win situation on either side; they just have to kill the nexii and stargate. However, P and Z have to actually fight the army or maneuver it around to kill all the buildings.
On September 05 2018 22:26 kajtarp wrote: I know the rules, but still find stupid how a 0 supply player can force a draw against a 50 army supply player, just because he can lift off his buildings. That being said, after Neeb's push where sacrificed his army for worker kills it was TY's game to lose. It was 20 army supply vs. like 80, TY should have killed him right away... I also wanted Neeblet to advance, but if we are honest, TY was the better player today. Neeb was still impressive tough.
Same can happen with 50 supply terran vs 2 supply protoss when that 2 supply is a DT.
I mean it could happen, but that's not zero supply and it practically speaking doesn't happen so why mention it?
It happened in Maru vs Has. Not exactly 50 vs 2 supply but similar.
Which game was this?
game 1
Wasn't there also a MKP vs Alicia game in Wol where this happened?
EPT
