EPT[GSL 2018] Season 3 - Semi Finals Day 1 - Page 26
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MASTERCAKES
United States127 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On September 05 2018 20:36 nojok wrote: It's just neeb's weak spot, everyone knew TY would come with this plan to create a messy early game. TY literally proxies almost every TvP, regardless of the opponent. Most other Terrans do too. | ||
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repomaniak
Poland324 Posts
GSL tide goes in murlock | team neeb cheer GSL some non KR audience GSL leonardo da vinci | audience GSL beach tsunami draw gsl GSL Artosis dont tell my wife GSL Artosis 1920's dancing GSL TY interview GSL bald eagle screams freedom intensifies GSL Tastosis x marks the spot / kr cheers GSL Neeb channeling the power of all previous gsl foreigners GSL Artosis am i crazy? | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
On September 05 2018 20:39 repomaniak wrote: GSL draw? https://clips.twitch.tv/BraveScaryAsparagusNinjaGrumpy GSL tide goes in murlock | team neeb cheer https://clips.twitch.tv/DarlingAuspiciousHeronM4xHeh GSL some non KR audience https://clips.twitch.tv/AstuteSmoggyOcelotWTRuck GSL leonardo da vinci | audience https://clips.twitch.tv/IcyKindHerbsPJSalt GSL beach tsunami draw gsl https://clips.twitch.tv/ColorfulImpossibleTigerPunchTrees GSL Artosis dont tell my wife https://clips.twitch.tv/SparklyFrozenLasagnaResidentSleeper GSL Artosis 1920's dancing https://clips.twitch.tv/UgliestBeautifulYogurtRiPepperonis GSL TY interview https://clips.twitch.tv/LittleAgileWitchBibleThump GSL bald eagle screams freedom intensifies https://clips.twitch.tv/DifferentSassyDugongOSfrog GSL Tastosis x marks the spot / kr cheers https://clips.twitch.tv/CrazyOnerousFungusAMPTropPunch GSL Neeb channeling the power of all previous gsl foreigners https://clips.twitch.tv/CourageousVenomousKuduSMOrc GSL Artosis am i crazy? https://clips.twitch.tv/DependableSlipperyRedpandaWTRuck Lmao thanks for doing this. | ||
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FrkFrJss
Canada1205 Posts
On September 05 2018 20:29 Koivusto wrote: The decisive moment was that late recall. If it would've been 3-1 and harder to lose from there. It has been brought up before, but I do think that Terran's ability to lift up should be looked at. This was the tipping point between doing another game and Neeb going up 3-1. At 3-1, yes he could have won, but it would have also been a lot harder. I know there are arguments like leaving 400 minerals to build a nexus or leaving enough money to build a phoenix or recalling like 10 seconds earlier. But I still see no rational argument as to why there isn't like a 5 minute floating timer on Terran buildings. It doesn't affect gameplay whatsoever (except that you couldn't use it as an eternal scout), and it's long enough that the Protoss does actually have to damage another building or enemy unit to extend the draw timer. Because switch the situations around, where Terran has the bigger army but is out of position. In every situation with Zerg and Protoss, the Terran wins, but in every situation with the Zerg and Protoss, the Terran can force a draw. I don't really think that I've ever seen a situation like this where a single racial difference is the true tipping point between draw and loss. It also affects the win condition. Terran's "win" condition isn't destroy all my opponent's buildings; it's destroy all my opponent's main bases. The win condition for any other opponent is to destroy all the opponent's buildings. So it fundamentally puts the Terran at an imbalanced position (from a standard win perspective). Even from a draw perspective, the P/Z has to whittle down the T enough so that their army cannot engage the P/Z army and vice versa, whereas the T just has to lift their buildings. Again, in normal ladder games, this is fine. It's part of the game, but I don't think it should be a major decider in a tight series like this. | ||
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La1
United Kingdom659 Posts
1) could protoss open with some sort of forge build to dump a cannon at the front for protection? or does this delay everything else too much 2) is it possible that a change where buildings have limited float gas that recharges slowly over time to add a punishment to proxies? this way you can still move buildings about but the gas limits floating indefinitely | ||
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Durnuu
13322 Posts
On September 05 2018 20:55 La1 wrote: Recently got back into SC2, Having seen all the proxies recently i have two questions 1) could protoss open with some sort of forge build to dump a cannon at the front for protection? or does this delay everything else too much 2) is it possible that a change where buildings have limited float gas that recharges slowly over time to add a punishment to proxies? this way you can still move buildings about but the gas limits floating indefinitely Cannons don't do anything against proxies. If you only make one the reaper can just jump past it (or go poke the edges if you make it in your mineral line) and then you take free damage because you have no units to kill it/make it go away. And then the cyclone(s) follow-up just kills the cannon with ease. | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
Stephano, Serral, Neeb are my top 3 for sure | ||
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dankobanana
Croatia244 Posts
On September 05 2018 20:54 FrkFrJss wrote: It has been brought up before, but I do think that Terran's ability to lift up should be looked at. This was the tipping point between doing another game and Neeb going up 3-1. At 3-1, yes he could have won, but it would have also been a lot harder. I know there are arguments like leaving 400 minerals to build a nexus or leaving enough money to build a phoenix or recalling like 10 seconds earlier. But I still see no rational argument as to why there isn't like a 5 minute floating timer on Terran buildings. It doesn't affect gameplay whatsoever (except that you couldn't use it as an eternal scout), and it's long enough that the Protoss does actually have to damage another building or enemy unit to extend the draw timer. Because switch the situations around, where Terran has the bigger army but is out of position. In every situation with Zerg and Protoss, the Terran wins, but in every situation with the Zerg and Protoss, the Terran can force a draw. I don't really think that I've ever seen a situation like this where a single racial difference is the true tipping point between draw and loss. It also affects the win condition. Terran's "win" condition isn't destroy all my opponent's buildings; it's destroy all my opponent's main bases. The win condition for any other opponent is to destroy all the opponent's buildings. So it fundamentally puts the Terran at an imbalanced position (from a standard win perspective). Even from a draw perspective, the P/Z has to whittle down the T enough so that their army cannot engage the P/Z army and vice versa, whereas the T just has to lift their buildings. Again, in normal ladder games, this is fine. It's part of the game, but I don't think it should be a major decider in a tight series like this. I agree. Its not because Neeb was on the other side of this today but because I think this is fundamentally unfair | ||
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La1
United Kingdom659 Posts
On September 05 2018 20:58 Durnuu wrote: Cannons don't do anything against proxies. If you only make one the reaper can just jump past it (or go poke the edges if you make it in your mineral line) and then you take free damage because you have no units to kill it/make it go away. And then the cyclone(s) follow-up just kills the cannon with ease. I didn't realise cyclones rinse cannons, i was thinking a pvz style build but instead of a second gate a forge and a cannon at the front and a few defensive units in the main but then if the cannon doesn't stop cyclones that's the whole build gone, and its pointless having a cannon in your natural as banshees / reapers etc can sit on the outside of it after seeing so many protoss just "die" to what is a pretty standard pressure with no hard impact to T i think P may have to re-think their entire build process | ||
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Parrek
United States893 Posts
On September 05 2018 20:39 Fango wrote: The 8th spot for WCS korea is really contested. Gumiho, Trap, sOs, Dear, INnoVation, soO, and Solar are all within 1500 points of eachother and can potentially take it with supertournament. Nah. Neeb will qualify for ST and take it and ruin all their hopes and dreams | ||
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nosink_
6 Posts
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tskarzyn
United States516 Posts
On September 05 2018 20:54 FrkFrJss wrote: It has been brought up before, but I do think that Terran's ability to lift up should be looked at. This was the tipping point between doing another game and Neeb going up 3-1. At 3-1, yes he could have won, but it would have also been a lot harder. I know there are arguments like leaving 400 minerals to build a nexus or leaving enough money to build a phoenix or recalling like 10 seconds earlier. But I still see no rational argument as to why there isn't like a 5 minute floating timer on Terran buildings. It doesn't affect gameplay whatsoever (except that you couldn't use it as an eternal scout), and it's long enough that the Protoss does actually have to damage another building or enemy unit to extend the draw timer. Because switch the situations around, where Terran has the bigger army but is out of position. In every situation with Zerg and Protoss, the Terran wins, but in every situation with the Zerg and Protoss, the Terran can force a draw. I don't really think that I've ever seen a situation like this where a single racial difference is the true tipping point between draw and loss. It also affects the win condition. Terran's "win" condition isn't destroy all my opponent's buildings; it's destroy all my opponent's main bases. The win condition for any other opponent is to destroy all the opponent's buildings. So it fundamentally puts the Terran at an imbalanced position (from a standard win perspective). Even from a draw perspective, the P/Z has to whittle down the T enough so that their army cannot engage the P/Z army and vice versa, whereas the T just has to lift their buildings. Again, in normal ladder games, this is fine. It's part of the game, but I don't think it should be a major decider in a tight series like this. IMO, it adds an additional layer of strategy that makes for much more interesting end game scenarios. Neeb had the game won with recall but Ty's brain is op. While we're at it, can we talk about recall? Seems like the equivalent of being able to recall your queen in chess after being pulled out of position and I don't think it belongs in RTS in its current form. | ||
Poopi
France12925 Posts
On September 05 2018 20:34 Myrddrael wrote: When did SC2 become a proxy fest? Super boring and seems like there's no risk at all vs Protoss? If the proxy is found you might be in a very bad spot depending on the version you are doing. The real advantage here is that there are multiple variations of it (double cyclone proxied or factory at home, agressive with marauders or defensive or whatever) Seems like the standard TvP build | ||
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nosink_
6 Posts
On September 05 2018 21:27 tskarzyn wrote: IMO, it adds an additional layer of strategy that makes for much more interesting end game scenarios. Neeb had the game won with recall but Ty's brain is op. While we're at it, can we talk about recall? Seems like the equivalent of being able to recall your queen in chess after being pulled out of position and I don't think it belongs in RTS in its current form. The game hinging on whether or not the protoss has one phoenix so he could theoretically spend the next 40 minutes chasing down every single Terran building and destroy it is not what I would call an "interesting end game scenario" | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19364 Posts
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Lexender
Mexico2656 Posts
On September 05 2018 20:54 FrkFrJss wrote: It has been brought up before, but I do think that Terran's ability to lift up should be looked at. This was the tipping point between doing another game and Neeb going up 3-1. At 3-1, yes he could have won, but it would have also been a lot harder. I know there are arguments like leaving 400 minerals to build a nexus or leaving enough money to build a phoenix or recalling like 10 seconds earlier. But I still see no rational argument as to why there isn't like a 5 minute floating timer on Terran buildings. It doesn't affect gameplay whatsoever (except that you couldn't use it as an eternal scout), and it's long enough that the Protoss does actually have to damage another building or enemy unit to extend the draw timer. Because switch the situations around, where Terran has the bigger army but is out of position. In every situation with Zerg and Protoss, the Terran wins, but in every situation with the Zerg and Protoss, the Terran can force a draw. I don't really think that I've ever seen a situation like this where a single racial difference is the true tipping point between draw and loss. It also affects the win condition. Terran's "win" condition isn't destroy all my opponent's buildings; it's destroy all my opponent's main bases. The win condition for any other opponent is to destroy all the opponent's buildings. So it fundamentally puts the Terran at an imbalanced position (from a standard win perspective). Even from a draw perspective, the P/Z has to whittle down the T enough so that their army cannot engage the P/Z army and vice versa, whereas the T just has to lift their buildings. Again, in normal ladder games, this is fine. It's part of the game, but I don't think it should be a major decider in a tight series like this. The ammount of things that have to line up to make lifting buildings a decisive factor is so big that its stupid to say its an advantage, actual draws are so far between that I think its been years since there was a draw in GSL. You have to understand also that terran players know how to play around using the advantage of lifting their buildings, its a inherent point of allowing aggressive play. If you take that out protoss players will have to big of an advantage with recall because they know they will have the upper hand in any base trade, kind of like what happens in PvZ, they kill a few bases, recall and suddenly your fucked up. Neeb had all the tools he needed to deal with the situation, floating buildings didn't suddenly destroyed all of Neebs nexus and automatically gave TY the draw, TY simply made the best choice with what he had. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On September 05 2018 21:54 BisuDagger wrote: Oh man, great playing by Neeb. I feel like the draw game should have been given to Neeb, but that's just my heart talking right now. Hopefully TY can play really well in the finals. TY thew the game by losing all the units in Neeb's main. Then Neeb threw it by not protecting any of his nexuses (or making a pheonix, he had a stargate and money for a quite a while during the basetrade iirc). A draw seems as fair as you can get really. They both made game-losing mistake(s). | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19364 Posts
On September 05 2018 22:02 Fango wrote: TY thew the game by losing all the units in Neeb's main. Then Neeb threw it by not protecting any of his nexuses (or making a pheonix, he had a stargate and money for a quite a while during the basetrade iirc). A draw seems as fair as you can get really. They both made game-losing mistake(s). Yup, totally unwilling to argue for what is just what I want lol. edit: I wouldn't be opposed to map makers either making a 1 unit width platform into those void sections or a pad that a single blink stalker could get to. I'm totally opposed to a gameplay change to resolve floating buildings. | ||
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