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On January 13 2017 20:40 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2017 20:37 ArtyK wrote:On January 13 2017 20:34 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:31 Fango wrote:On January 13 2017 20:26 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:24 Fango wrote:On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote:
Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime. Ty beat showtime so its completely fair. I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo. But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view. Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not). Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha). So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first? Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series. Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too. what if it was bo9 and TY 5-0ed showtime, would he still not deserve 1st place because of map total even though he clearly owns the other? Doesn't make sense... Makes sense to me if TY performed that much worse vs the other players in the group. This is round robin and not Showtime vs TY (which it should only come down to at the same map score and if Showtime managed to get a better map score despite going 0-5 he deserves first).
You're just assuming that if they did it that way the results would have been the same though. Because after TY 2-0'd PsiArc he knew he had first place secured, there's a chance he was half-assing it in his last match against Kelazhur (keep in mind Digmouse said he had a cold so he's probably just happy when it's over), not scouting properly, cheesing himself or doing TaeJa GGs.
So uh... which 1st place plays against which Ro12 winner?
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On January 13 2017 20:59 ParksonVN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2017 20:51 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:50 ParksonVN wrote:On January 13 2017 20:34 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:31 Fango wrote:On January 13 2017 20:26 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:24 Fango wrote:On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote:
Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime. Ty beat showtime so its completely fair. I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo. But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view. Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not). Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha). So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first? Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series. Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too. map point does not count, match point does. Example: GSL code S group C Match 1: SOS 0 - 2 Billowy Deciding match: SOS 2 - 1 Billowy and then SOS advances to the next group while Billowy is eliminated. So overall SOS 2 - 3 Billowy in terms of map, according to you, Billowy is better and should have advanced over SOS. NO, it doesn't work that way. We are talking about round robin and not GSL group format, you can't use GSL as an example. No, I'm just saying, whether it's GSL format or round robin format. They always aim to pick the best players to advance, in a RTS game, one map win is not clearly a win overall, that's why we have bo3 and bo5 or even bo7. And as the result shown, TY 4-1, Showtime 4-1 and Showtime lost against TY, so TY is better and should get out as 1st place. The same way with football, at the end of the tournament, if 2 clubs are equal in point, which club won head to head will become the champion.
I don't get your football example, since there a win is worth 3 points and they have ties worth 1 point, it's again completely different and can't be compared to this round robin format.
I agree that the best player should advance, but if two players have the same match score I think the player with the better map score is the player that performed better. The whole arguement is basically that I think 2:0 is worth more than 2:1 and in a round robin format head to head should come after the overall score. It's just opinion based, but that's how they usually do it in sc2 tournaments that use round robin.
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I think it's hard to gauge which system is better.
All in all, the system needs to be transparent and players must know what they need to do in order to advance before the tournament even starts. If that's the case, then everyone should be happy.
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On January 13 2017 20:58 Musicus wrote:
So how will the RO8 look like?
I mean, which winner plays TY, which winner plays Maru, ...
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On January 13 2017 21:04 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2017 20:40 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:37 ArtyK wrote:On January 13 2017 20:34 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:31 Fango wrote:On January 13 2017 20:26 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:24 Fango wrote:On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote:
Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime. Ty beat showtime so its completely fair. I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo. But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view. Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not). Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha). So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first? Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series. Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too. what if it was bo9 and TY 5-0ed showtime, would he still not deserve 1st place because of map total even though he clearly owns the other? Doesn't make sense... Makes sense to me if TY performed that much worse vs the other players in the group. This is round robin and not Showtime vs TY (which it should only come down to at the same map score and if Showtime managed to get a better map score despite going 0-5 he deserves first). You're just assuming that if they did it that way the results would have been the same though. Because after TY 2-0'd PsiArc he knew he had first place secured, there's a chance he was half-assing it in his last match against Kelazhur (keep in mind Digmouse said he had a cold so he's probably just happy when it's over), not scouting properly, cheesing himself or doing TaeJa GGs.
I'm not assuming that. I just say that the format should be that way, then maybe TY would've tried harder and won 5-0. Anyway it woulld still be better that way even if the result does not change, at least it makes sure every player tries on every map until the end.
If TY indeed did no try his hardest in the last match, it already proves that their ruleset is inferior imo.
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On January 13 2017 21:07 bulya wrote:So how will the RO8 look like? I mean, which winner plays TY, which winner plays Maru, ...
That would be good to know!
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On January 13 2017 21:07 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2017 21:04 Elentos wrote:On January 13 2017 20:40 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:37 ArtyK wrote:On January 13 2017 20:34 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:31 Fango wrote:On January 13 2017 20:26 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:24 Fango wrote:On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote:
Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime. Ty beat showtime so its completely fair. I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo. But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view. Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not). Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha). So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first? Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series. Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too. what if it was bo9 and TY 5-0ed showtime, would he still not deserve 1st place because of map total even though he clearly owns the other? Doesn't make sense... Makes sense to me if TY performed that much worse vs the other players in the group. This is round robin and not Showtime vs TY (which it should only come down to at the same map score and if Showtime managed to get a better map score despite going 0-5 he deserves first). You're just assuming that if they did it that way the results would have been the same though. Because after TY 2-0'd PsiArc he knew he had first place secured, there's a chance he was half-assing it in his last match against Kelazhur (keep in mind Digmouse said he had a cold so he's probably just happy when it's over), not scouting properly, cheesing himself or doing TaeJa GGs. I'm not assuming that. I just say that the format should be that way, then maybe TY would've tried harder and won 5-0. Anyway it woulld still be better that way even if the result does not change, at least it makes sure every player tries on every map until the end.
That's purely situational. And usually H2H is more likely for players to try their best until the very end than Mapscore. Map Score can be decided way earlier than H2H depending on the draw.
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On January 13 2017 21:11 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2017 21:07 bulya wrote:So how will the RO8 look like? I mean, which winner plays TY, which winner plays Maru, ... That would be good to know!
Yeah would be nice if we got a full bracket.
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On January 13 2017 21:14 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2017 21:11 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 21:07 bulya wrote:So how will the RO8 look like? I mean, which winner plays TY, which winner plays Maru, ... That would be good to know! Yeah would be nice if we got a full bracket.
it's on LP
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On January 13 2017 21:15 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2017 21:14 Elentos wrote:On January 13 2017 21:11 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 21:07 bulya wrote:So how will the RO8 look like? I mean, which winner plays TY, which winner plays Maru, ... That would be good to know! Yeah would be nice if we got a full bracket. it's on LP
I would say it's good for the winner of Elazer vs Showtime, but damn XY looked good!
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Showtime vs TY in the finals, hopefully.
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On January 13 2017 21:07 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2017 21:04 Elentos wrote:On January 13 2017 20:40 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:37 ArtyK wrote:On January 13 2017 20:34 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:31 Fango wrote:On January 13 2017 20:26 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:24 Fango wrote:On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote:
Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime. Ty beat showtime so its completely fair. I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo. But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view. Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not). Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha). So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first? Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series. Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too. what if it was bo9 and TY 5-0ed showtime, would he still not deserve 1st place because of map total even though he clearly owns the other? Doesn't make sense... Makes sense to me if TY performed that much worse vs the other players in the group. This is round robin and not Showtime vs TY (which it should only come down to at the same map score and if Showtime managed to get a better map score despite going 0-5 he deserves first). You're just assuming that if they did it that way the results would have been the same though. Because after TY 2-0'd PsiArc he knew he had first place secured, there's a chance he was half-assing it in his last match against Kelazhur (keep in mind Digmouse said he had a cold so he's probably just happy when it's over), not scouting properly, cheesing himself or doing TaeJa GGs. I'm not assuming that. I just say that the format should be that way, then maybe TY would've tried harder and won 5-0. Anyway it woulld still be better that way even if the result does not change, at least it makes sure every player tries on every map until the end. If TY indeed did no try his hardest in the last match, it already proves that their ruleset is inferior imo.
in a RTS game, not every map is the same. You can lose the first map then adjust your play and win the next two maps. TY might lost 1 game to some players but he turned it back and won 2-1 -> he is better than those players. And TY won 2-0 against Showtime -> he is better than Showtime.
That's it, only "better", not how much better, therefore 2-0 and 2-1 are all the same.
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Eh bracket matches are what I expected. Nerchio vs TY and Scarlett vs Maru Ro8s are gonna hurt. So I guess go Jim and Namshar 
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On January 13 2017 21:18 ParksonVN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2017 21:07 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 21:04 Elentos wrote:On January 13 2017 20:40 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:37 ArtyK wrote:On January 13 2017 20:34 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:31 Fango wrote:On January 13 2017 20:26 Musicus wrote:On January 13 2017 20:24 Fango wrote:On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote:
Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime. Ty beat showtime so its completely fair. I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo. But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view. Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not). Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha). So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first? Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series. Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too. what if it was bo9 and TY 5-0ed showtime, would he still not deserve 1st place because of map total even though he clearly owns the other? Doesn't make sense... Makes sense to me if TY performed that much worse vs the other players in the group. This is round robin and not Showtime vs TY (which it should only come down to at the same map score and if Showtime managed to get a better map score despite going 0-5 he deserves first). You're just assuming that if they did it that way the results would have been the same though. Because after TY 2-0'd PsiArc he knew he had first place secured, there's a chance he was half-assing it in his last match against Kelazhur (keep in mind Digmouse said he had a cold so he's probably just happy when it's over), not scouting properly, cheesing himself or doing TaeJa GGs. I'm not assuming that. I just say that the format should be that way, then maybe TY would've tried harder and won 5-0. Anyway it woulld still be better that way even if the result does not change, at least it makes sure every player tries on every map until the end. If TY indeed did no try his hardest in the last match, it already proves that their ruleset is inferior imo. in a RTS game, not every map is the same. You can lose the first map then adjust your play and win the next two maps. TY might lost 1 game to some players but he turned it back and won 2-1 -> he is better than those players. And TY won 2-0 against Showtime -> he is better than Showtime. That's it, only "better", not how much better, therefore 2-0 and 2-1 are all the same.
That's what it comes down to (btw TY "only" won 2-1 vs Showtime).
But if you think 2:0 and 2-1 are the same we can agree to disagree.
Again it is subjective, but it used to work differently in sc2, like http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/DreamHack_ROCCAT_LotV_Championship.
I'm now done with this topic, nobody is wrong or right, I just don't like the ruleset, but of course they still have to stick to it!
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Belgium4020 Posts
lol Nerchio vs TY could only be better if that was Nerchio vs Maru. Perfect
Scarlett vs Maru is fun too.
EDIT: considering Nerchio and Scarlett pass RO12 ofc, sorry for that 
Great bracket!
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South Korea2105 Posts
I still cant understand how Kelazhur lost to Psiarc and then beat TY
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On January 13 2017 21:22 ZiggyPG wrote:
I still cant understand how Kelazhur lost to Psiarc and then beat TY
Maybe he cheesed TY. Maybe TY cheesed him. Maybe TY did TaeJa GGs and left when he didn't have to. The match was definitely over quick enough for one of those to be true.
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All-Korean grand finals still possible, but with how TY played today he probably loses to Nerchio or Neeb. Actually I guess if he can beat Showtime he can beat Neeb but it'd be close.
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Glorious round robin tie discussions <3
Looks like a Neeb vs Maru finals to me
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Imo map score and head to head are both bad ways to do this. Let them play extra games to decide the outcome.
If that isn't possible throw a coin
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EPT
