On January 13 2017 04:29 seopthi wrote: Does anyone know whether the finals will be Maru vs TY, or whether they can eliminate each other in earlier round?
No way to know at this point. Depends on if TY finishes first in his group and then on how they seed into the bracket
Group C has went from a decent group for Neeb to a nightmare in the span of 2 weeks. Scarlett/MajOr in good form/iAsonu qualified for iem Korea and did decent/elazer always being a monster to play against. #WorriedforNeeb
I want a Korean final with TY and Maru so at least we won't have a crappy final for a $400k event. And it will most likely happen if they keep destroying everyone.
On January 13 2017 06:09 SNSeigifried wrote: Group C has went from a decent group for Neeb to a nightmare in the span of 2 weeks. Scarlett/MajOr in good form/iAsonu qualified for iem Korea and did decent/elazer always being a monster to play against. #WorriedforNeeb
True, but Neeb'a form isn't that bad. He won vs Gumiho and uThermal in the OSC finals, he tied with Innovation, beat Guru, and beat TRUE. I think he can take out MajOr, iA, Zerghamdi, do decent against Elazer, and get slaughtered by Scarlett.
Also, I don't get why a final other than the two Koreans would be a bad one. As we've seen since Nation Wars and other tournaments, foreigners can hold their own vs not just the medium Koreans but also some of the best. I'm not saying the Koreans wouldn't win, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be a good finals anyways.
Neeb has been doing fairly well against Terran recently, and Scarlett is in high form.
they somehow managed to make this game look a little closer than it really was for a second there. I mean she was never going to break him but Neeb was trying to do that as inefficient as possible
On January 13 2017 12:42 Shellshock wrote: they somehow managed to make this game look a little closer than it really was for a second there. I mean she was never going to break him but Neeb was trying to do that as inefficient as possible
If we are both talking about game 2 I actually disagree. I thought it was on a knife's edge and neeb's hold was really really on point.
On January 13 2017 12:43 Solar424 wrote: Nice to see Carriers are still OP. But Blizzard say they're "cool" so it's OK.
oh come on. Neeb could have gone for literally anything he wanted and won from that position. She was dead when her drop didn't do anything
They were mostly even on bases, army supply, and workers. Carriers are just a risk-free investment that make it so that if you turtle up you can't lose. In that game she was pretty far behind from her opener but Carriers just made it impossible.
On January 13 2017 12:42 Shellshock wrote: they somehow managed to make this game look a little closer than it really was for a second there. I mean she was never going to break him but Neeb was trying to do that as inefficient as possible
If we are both talking about game 2 I actually disagree. I thought it was on a knife's edge and neeb's hold was really really on point.
Neeb did time it out well. He knew exactly how many carriers out he needed to hold with. I don't think it was close though, she was so damn far behind
On January 13 2017 12:42 Shellshock wrote: they somehow managed to make this game look a little closer than it really was for a second there. I mean she was never going to break him but Neeb was trying to do that as inefficient as possible
If we are both talking about game 2 I actually disagree. I thought it was on a knife's edge and neeb's hold was really really on point.
Only cos he went for Skytoss though.
Any kind of robo army timing would have either been just held or hugely in neebs favor once he pushed.
On January 13 2017 12:42 Shellshock wrote: they somehow managed to make this game look a little closer than it really was for a second there. I mean she was never going to break him but Neeb was trying to do that as inefficient as possible
If we are both talking about game 2 I actually disagree. I thought it was on a knife's edge and neeb's hold was really really on point.
Neeb did time it out well. He knew exactly how many carriers out he needed to hold with. I don't think it was close though, she was so damn far behind
On January 13 2017 12:42 Shellshock wrote: they somehow managed to make this game look a little closer than it really was for a second there. I mean she was never going to break him but Neeb was trying to do that as inefficient as possible
If we are both talking about game 2 I actually disagree. I thought it was on a knife's edge and neeb's hold was really really on point.
Neeb did time it out well. He knew exactly how many carriers out he needed to hold with. I don't think it was close though, she was so damn far behind
Yeah rushing out Carriers ASAP so much game sense
IT WAS! After that opening she did, which I'll remind you was early pool, speedlings, +1 melee, overlord drop that did literally nothing besides a few seconds of probe pulling, Neeb knew she wouldn't be able to hold against it.
On January 13 2017 12:42 Shellshock wrote: they somehow managed to make this game look a little closer than it really was for a second there. I mean she was never going to break him but Neeb was trying to do that as inefficient as possible
If we are both talking about game 2 I actually disagree. I thought it was on a knife's edge and neeb's hold was really really on point.
she had no econ to really fall back on and Neeb had his 3rd cannoned up. with no more banelings in play he could have rebuilt the cyber core and eventually held with adept spam. By the time her attack really got going too he had like 6 carriers ready so I don't think Scarlett could have ever quite broken him. I don't think even just killing the natural would have been enough.
On January 13 2017 12:42 Shellshock wrote: they somehow managed to make this game look a little closer than it really was for a second there. I mean she was never going to break him but Neeb was trying to do that as inefficient as possible
If we are both talking about game 2 I actually disagree. I thought it was on a knife's edge and neeb's hold was really really on point.
Neeb did time it out well. He knew exactly how many carriers out he needed to hold with. I don't think it was close though, she was so damn far behind
Yeah rushing out Carriers ASAP so much game sense
IT WAS! After that opening she did, which I'll remind you was early pool, speedlings, +1 melee, overlord drop that did literally nothing besides a few seconds of probe pulling, Neeb knew she wouldn't be able to hold against it.
If you're going skytoss you get fast carriers anyway because it shortens the window Zerg has to do something about it. Once you get above 5 the game is basically over.
On January 13 2017 12:42 Shellshock wrote: they somehow managed to make this game look a little closer than it really was for a second there. I mean she was never going to break him but Neeb was trying to do that as inefficient as possible
If we are both talking about game 2 I actually disagree. I thought it was on a knife's edge and neeb's hold was really really on point.
Neeb did time it out well. He knew exactly how many carriers out he needed to hold with. I don't think it was close though, she was so damn far behind
Yeah rushing out Carriers ASAP so much game sense
IT WAS! After that opening she did, which I'll remind you was early pool, speedlings, +1 melee, overlord drop that did literally nothing besides a few seconds of probe pulling, Neeb knew she wouldn't be able to hold against it.
If you're going skytoss you get fast carriers anyway because it shortens the window Zerg has to do something about it. Once you get above 5 the game is basically over.
wow. he just told you why neeb may have chosen to go skytoss in that situation and your comeback was that general statement?
On January 13 2017 12:42 Shellshock wrote: they somehow managed to make this game look a little closer than it really was for a second there. I mean she was never going to break him but Neeb was trying to do that as inefficient as possible
If we are both talking about game 2 I actually disagree. I thought it was on a knife's edge and neeb's hold was really really on point.
Neeb did time it out well. He knew exactly how many carriers out he needed to hold with. I don't think it was close though, she was so damn far behind
Yeah rushing out Carriers ASAP so much game sense
IT WAS! After that opening she did, which I'll remind you was early pool, speedlings, +1 melee, overlord drop that did literally nothing besides a few seconds of probe pulling, Neeb knew she wouldn't be able to hold against it.
If you're going skytoss you get fast carriers anyway because it shortens the window Zerg has to do something about it. Once you get above 5 the game is basically over.
wow. he just told you why neeb may have chosen to go skytoss in that situation and your comeback was that general statement?
I don't even know man.
I'm saying he would have gone fast carriers regardless of Scarlett's opening because that's what you do when you go skytoss.
On January 13 2017 12:42 Shellshock wrote: they somehow managed to make this game look a little closer than it really was for a second there. I mean she was never going to break him but Neeb was trying to do that as inefficient as possible
If we are both talking about game 2 I actually disagree. I thought it was on a knife's edge and neeb's hold was really really on point.
Neeb did time it out well. He knew exactly how many carriers out he needed to hold with. I don't think it was close though, she was so damn far behind
Yeah rushing out Carriers ASAP so much game sense
IT WAS! After that opening she did, which I'll remind you was early pool, speedlings, +1 melee, overlord drop that did literally nothing besides a few seconds of probe pulling, Neeb knew she wouldn't be able to hold against it.
If you're going skytoss you get fast carriers anyway because it shortens the window Zerg has to do something about it. Once you get above 5 the game is basically over.
wow. he just told you why neeb may have chosen to go skytoss in that situation and your comeback was that general statement?
I don't even know man.
I'm saying he would have gone fast carriers regardless of Scarlett's opening because that's what you do when you go skytoss.
He didn't go skytoss in game one so I'm not sure how you can make that call
On January 13 2017 12:42 Shellshock wrote: they somehow managed to make this game look a little closer than it really was for a second there. I mean she was never going to break him but Neeb was trying to do that as inefficient as possible
If we are both talking about game 2 I actually disagree. I thought it was on a knife's edge and neeb's hold was really really on point.
Neeb did time it out well. He knew exactly how many carriers out he needed to hold with. I don't think it was close though, she was so damn far behind
Yeah rushing out Carriers ASAP so much game sense
IT WAS! After that opening she did, which I'll remind you was early pool, speedlings, +1 melee, overlord drop that did literally nothing besides a few seconds of probe pulling, Neeb knew she wouldn't be able to hold against it.
If you're going skytoss you get fast carriers anyway because it shortens the window Zerg has to do something about it. Once you get above 5 the game is basically over.
wow. he just told you why neeb may have chosen to go skytoss in that situation and your comeback was that general statement?
I don't even know man.
I'm saying he would have gone fast carriers regardless of Scarlett's opening because that's what you do when you go skytoss.
You maybe right, you maybe wrong.
One thing is certain, going carriers at that stage of the game was an almost sure fire way of cementing the win. Crying OP or not.
On January 13 2017 12:42 Shellshock wrote: they somehow managed to make this game look a little closer than it really was for a second there. I mean she was never going to break him but Neeb was trying to do that as inefficient as possible
If we are both talking about game 2 I actually disagree. I thought it was on a knife's edge and neeb's hold was really really on point.
Neeb did time it out well. He knew exactly how many carriers out he needed to hold with. I don't think it was close though, she was so damn far behind
Yeah rushing out Carriers ASAP so much game sense
IT WAS! After that opening she did, which I'll remind you was early pool, speedlings, +1 melee, overlord drop that did literally nothing besides a few seconds of probe pulling, Neeb knew she wouldn't be able to hold against it.
If you're going skytoss you get fast carriers anyway because it shortens the window Zerg has to do something about it. Once you get above 5 the game is basically over.
wow. he just told you why neeb may have chosen to go skytoss in that situation and your comeback was that general statement?
I don't even know man.
I'm saying he would have gone fast carriers regardless of Scarlett's opening because that's what you do when you go skytoss.
He didn't go skytoss in game one so I'm not sure how you can make that call
It mostly has to do with the map geometry on Echo. You can just put a bunch of cannons in the area between the natural and 3rd and tear down the cooling tower and you're invincible until you get enough carriers out to steamroll.
On January 13 2017 13:38 Olli wrote: The best thing about being here is hearing all the players balance whine about different things
what is the latest balance whine from players ?
Most protoss hate terran, most zergs hate carriers
Major challenged two people to grudgematches for 10 pushups each yesterday to prove that he could beat them in a reverse match because their race is better, and lost both -> had to do 20 pushups.
On January 13 2017 13:38 Olli wrote: The best thing about being here is hearing all the players balance whine about different things
what is the latest balance whine from players ?
Most protoss hate terran, most zergs hate carriers
Major challenged two people to grudgematches for 10 pushups each yesterday to prove that he could beat them in a reverse match because their race is better, and lost both -> had to do 20 pushups.
I can't believe I though that tournament was gonna be one of the most spectacular esport tournament of all time when it was announce. I should have guess that the Chinese curse was always gonna prevail whatever the amount of money you are going to trow in the pit.
Ah well the game are good at least that's the most important.
On January 13 2017 16:50 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: Seriously, how the fuck you gonna 2-0 scarlett then get 2-0'd by IA? Are you trying to make me sad? Dude c'mon
PsiArc 2-0 Kelazhur is actually kind of embarrassing for Kela. I mean don't get me wrong, PsiArc seems like a super cool guy but... he's supposed to be the worst player in the group.
So, Scarlett is 6-2, after 2-0ing ZergHamdi. Neeb finished 8-3. If Scarlett 2-0's Elazer, does she advance in first? Or does the fact that Neeb defeated Scarlett take precedent?
On January 13 2017 18:45 Soke wrote: So, Scarlett is 6-2, after 2-0ing ZergHamdi. Neeb finished 8-3. If Scarlett 2-0's Elazer, does she advance in first? Or does the fact that Neeb defeated Scarlett take precedent?
Head-to-head takes priority. Which is to say Neeb won his group.
On January 13 2017 18:45 Soke wrote: So, Scarlett is 6-2, after 2-0ing ZergHamdi. Neeb finished 8-3. If Scarlett 2-0's Elazer, does she advance in first? Or does the fact that Neeb defeated Scarlett take precedent?
On January 13 2017 19:54 Elentos wrote: So in group C anything can still happen between Scarlett, Elazer and Major and it all depends on the score for Elazer vs Scarlett.
Now, if it's a tie breaker do we count the total map difference or only the one from when they faced?
On January 13 2017 19:54 Elentos wrote: So in group C anything can still happen between Scarlett, Elazer and Major and it all depends on the score for Elazer vs Scarlett.
Now, if it's a tie breaker do we count the total map difference or only the one from when they faced?
Pretty sure it's total map score. So like... Scarlett can't afford to get 2-0'd by Elazer.
On January 13 2017 19:54 Elentos wrote: So in group C anything can still happen between Scarlett, Elazer and Major and it all depends on the score for Elazer vs Scarlett.
Now, if it's a tie breaker do we count the total map difference or only the one from when they faced?
Pretty sure it's total map score. So like... Scarlett can't afford to get 2-0'd by Elazer.
but she would be at 6-4 (+2), elazer at 7-5 (+2) and MajOr at 7-6 (+1) so it's bad for major
On January 13 2017 19:54 Elentos wrote: So in group C anything can still happen between Scarlett, Elazer and Major and it all depends on the score for Elazer vs Scarlett.
Now, if it's a tie breaker do we count the total map difference or only the one from when they faced?
Pretty sure it's total map score. So like... Scarlett can't afford to get 2-0'd by Elazer.
but she would be at 6-4 (+2), elazer at 7-5 (+2) and MajOr at 7-6 (+1) so it's bad for major
Usually tournaments that look at map score just take into account maps won instead of the difference between lost and won games so I was assuming that was what WESG was going to do.
On January 13 2017 19:54 Elentos wrote: So in group C anything can still happen between Scarlett, Elazer and Major and it all depends on the score for Elazer vs Scarlett.
Now, if it's a tie breaker do we count the total map difference or only the one from when they faced?
Pretty sure it's total map score. So like... Scarlett can't afford to get 2-0'd by Elazer.
but she would be at 6-4 (+2), elazer at 7-5 (+2) and MajOr at 7-6 (+1) so it's bad for major
Usually tournaments that look at map score just look take into account maps won instead of the difference between lost and won games so I was assuming that was what WESG was going to do.
On January 13 2017 20:12 digmouse wrote: TY isn't feeling well due to a cold he caught yesterday.
I'm waiting for the day TY doesn't feel unwell cause he caught a fucking cold before attending a tournament outside of Korea. Happens every time. But he still won the group so whatever.
On January 13 2017 20:12 digmouse wrote: TY isn't feeling well due to a cold he caught yesterday.
I'm waiting for the day TY doesn't feel unwell cause he caught a fucking cold before attending a tournament outside of Korea. Happens every time. But he still won the group so whatever.
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first?
Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series.
Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too.
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first?
Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series.
Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too.
what if it was bo9 and TY 5-0ed showtime, would he still not deserve 1st place because of map total even though he clearly owns the other? Doesn't make sense...
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first?
Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series.
Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too.
what if it was bo9 and TY 5-0ed showtime, would he still not deserve 1st place because of map total even though he clearly owns the other? Doesn't make sense...
Makes sense to me if TY performed that much worse vs the other players in the group. This is round robin and not Showtime vs TY (which it should only come down to at the same map score and if Showtime managed to get a better map score despite going 0-5 he deserves first).
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first?
Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series.
Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too.
what if it was bo9 and TY 5-0ed showtime, would he still not deserve 1st place because of map total even though he clearly owns the other? Doesn't make sense...
Makes sense to me if TY performed that much worse vs the other players in the group. This is round robin and not Showtime vs TY (which it should only come down to at the same map score and if Showtime managed to get a better map score despite going 0-5 he deserves first).
why didn't you stop at "let's agree to disagree" now you're triggering me
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first?
Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series.
Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too.
what if it was bo9 and TY 5-0ed showtime, would he still not deserve 1st place because of map total even though he clearly owns the other? Doesn't make sense...
Makes sense to me if TY performed that much worse vs the other players in the group. This is round robin and not Showtime vs TY (which it should only come down to at the same map score and if Showtime managed to get a better map score despite going 0-5 he deserves first).
why didn't you stop at "let's agree to disagree" now you're triggering me
I did end it at that with you, just answered to someone else .
On January 13 2017 20:47 Penev wrote: Scarlett > Major > Elazer > Scarlett
Scarlett has best map score so out in second
Major same map score as Elazer but Major won their match so Major 3rd, Elazer 4th makes the most sense to me
that's what I think.. so why is Elazer in 3rd place in their tables?
I heard Rotti just mentioning looking at map scores just for the matches the 3 players involved played against each other, so probably that. Liquipedia is still agreeing with us though
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first?
Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series.
Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too.
map point does not count, match point does. Example: GSL code S group C Match 1: SOS 0 - 2 Billowy Deciding match: SOS 2 - 1 Billowy and then SOS advances to the next round while Billowy is eliminated.
So overall SOS 2 - 3 Billowy in terms of map, according to you, Billowy is better and should have advanced over SOS. NO, it doesn't work that way.
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first?
Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series.
Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too.
map point does not count, match point does. Example: GSL code S group C Match 1: SOS 0 - 2 Billowy Deciding match: SOS 2 - 1 Billowy and then SOS advances to the next group while Billowy is eliminated.
So overall SOS 2 - 3 Billowy in terms of map, according to you, Billowy is better and should have advanced over SOS. NO, it doesn't work that way.
We are talking about round robin and not GSL group format, you can't use GSL as an example.
On January 13 2017 20:47 Penev wrote: Scarlett > Major > Elazer > Scarlett
Scarlett has best map score so out in second
Major same map score as Elazer but Major won their match so Major 3rd, Elazer 4th makes the most sense to me
that's what I think.. so why is Elazer in 3rd place in their tables?
I heard Rotti just mentioning looking at map scores just for the matches the 3 players involved played against each other, so probably that. Liquipedia is still agreeing with us though
...I edited LP so that's not a point ps. I'll change it to the official standings (ofc) but I really don't get it...
On January 13 2017 20:47 Penev wrote: Scarlett > Major > Elazer > Scarlett
Scarlett has best map score so out in second
Major same map score as Elazer but Major won their match so Major 3rd, Elazer 4th makes the most sense to me
that's what I think.. so why is Elazer in 3rd place in their tables?
I heard Rotti just mentioning looking at map scores just for the matches the 3 players involved played against each other, so probably that. Liquipedia is still agreeing with us though
...I edited LP so that's not a point ps. I'll change it to the official standings (ofc) but I really don't get it...
If they break the 3-way-tie with mutual map scores first, that breaks out MajOr. Now we have a 2-way-tie between Elazer and Scarlett, which goes in favor of Elazer, so Elazer should be 2nd in the group.
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first?
Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series.
Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too.
map point does not count, match point does. Example: GSL code S group C Match 1: SOS 0 - 2 Billowy Deciding match: SOS 2 - 1 Billowy and then SOS advances to the next group while Billowy is eliminated.
So overall SOS 2 - 3 Billowy in terms of map, according to you, Billowy is better and should have advanced over SOS. NO, it doesn't work that way.
We are talking about round robin and not GSL group format, you can't use GSL as an example.
No, I'm just saying, whether it's GSL format or round robin format. They always aim to pick the best players to advance, in a RTS game, one map win is not clearly a win overall, that's why we have bo3 and bo5 or even bo7. And as the result shown, TY 4-1, Showtime 4-1 and Showtime lost against TY, so TY is better and should get out as 1st place.
The same way with football, at the end of the tournament, if 2 clubs are equal in point, which club won head to head will become the champion.
On January 13 2017 20:50 TaKeTV wrote: Tiebreaker rules are
Head to Head Head to Head Map Score Global Map Score
Admin statement.
And what exactly does that mean in this specific 3 way circumstance?
Elazer is in and Major is out. H2H Map Score: 1. Scarlett 3:2 2. Elazer 3:3 3. Major 2:3
...ok, that makes sense... I do not agree with this method but at least it has some sense...
I would argue in a tournament with such a huge skill gap, that's actually the best option, to be honest. If you break a tie solely by looking at the H2H, the results against the "Top players" (who might have secured his spot in the next round before the group stage ends and therefore their last games didn't matter anymore) and the "lowest players" (who might be eliminated before the group stage ends and therefore their last games didn't matter anymore) matter less than the games against each other. (which all have to fight until the very end)
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first?
Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series.
Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too.
what if it was bo9 and TY 5-0ed showtime, would he still not deserve 1st place because of map total even though he clearly owns the other? Doesn't make sense...
Makes sense to me if TY performed that much worse vs the other players in the group. This is round robin and not Showtime vs TY (which it should only come down to at the same map score and if Showtime managed to get a better map score despite going 0-5 he deserves first).
You're just assuming that if they did it that way the results would have been the same though. Because after TY 2-0'd PsiArc he knew he had first place secured, there's a chance he was half-assing it in his last match against Kelazhur (keep in mind Digmouse said he had a cold so he's probably just happy when it's over), not scouting properly, cheesing himself or doing TaeJa GGs.
So uh... which 1st place plays against which Ro12 winner?
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first?
Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series.
Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too.
map point does not count, match point does. Example: GSL code S group C Match 1: SOS 0 - 2 Billowy Deciding match: SOS 2 - 1 Billowy and then SOS advances to the next group while Billowy is eliminated.
So overall SOS 2 - 3 Billowy in terms of map, according to you, Billowy is better and should have advanced over SOS. NO, it doesn't work that way.
We are talking about round robin and not GSL group format, you can't use GSL as an example.
No, I'm just saying, whether it's GSL format or round robin format. They always aim to pick the best players to advance, in a RTS game, one map win is not clearly a win overall, that's why we have bo3 and bo5 or even bo7. And as the result shown, TY 4-1, Showtime 4-1 and Showtime lost against TY, so TY is better and should get out as 1st place.
The same way with football, at the end of the tournament, if 2 clubs are equal in point, which club won head to head will become the champion.
I don't get your football example, since there a win is worth 3 points and they have ties worth 1 point, it's again completely different and can't be compared to this round robin format.
I agree that the best player should advance, but if two players have the same match score I think the player with the better map score is the player that performed better. The whole arguement is basically that I think 2:0 is worth more than 2:1 and in a round robin format head to head should come after the overall score. It's just opinion based, but that's how they usually do it in sc2 tournaments that use round robin.
I think it's hard to gauge which system is better. All in all, the system needs to be transparent and players must know what they need to do in order to advance before the tournament even starts. If that's the case, then everyone should be happy.
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first?
Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series.
Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too.
what if it was bo9 and TY 5-0ed showtime, would he still not deserve 1st place because of map total even though he clearly owns the other? Doesn't make sense...
Makes sense to me if TY performed that much worse vs the other players in the group. This is round robin and not Showtime vs TY (which it should only come down to at the same map score and if Showtime managed to get a better map score despite going 0-5 he deserves first).
You're just assuming that if they did it that way the results would have been the same though. Because after TY 2-0'd PsiArc he knew he had first place secured, there's a chance he was half-assing it in his last match against Kelazhur (keep in mind Digmouse said he had a cold so he's probably just happy when it's over), not scouting properly, cheesing himself or doing TaeJa GGs.
I'm not assuming that. I just say that the format should be that way, then maybe TY would've tried harder and won 5-0. Anyway it woulld still be better that way even if the result does not change, at least it makes sure every player tries on every map until the end.
If TY indeed did no try his hardest in the last match, it already proves that their ruleset is inferior imo.
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first?
Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series.
Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too.
what if it was bo9 and TY 5-0ed showtime, would he still not deserve 1st place because of map total even though he clearly owns the other? Doesn't make sense...
Makes sense to me if TY performed that much worse vs the other players in the group. This is round robin and not Showtime vs TY (which it should only come down to at the same map score and if Showtime managed to get a better map score despite going 0-5 he deserves first).
You're just assuming that if they did it that way the results would have been the same though. Because after TY 2-0'd PsiArc he knew he had first place secured, there's a chance he was half-assing it in his last match against Kelazhur (keep in mind Digmouse said he had a cold so he's probably just happy when it's over), not scouting properly, cheesing himself or doing TaeJa GGs.
I'm not assuming that. I just say that the format should be that way, then maybe TY would've tried harder and won 5-0. Anyway it woulld still be better that way even if the result does not change, at least it makes sure every player tries on every map until the end.
That's purely situational. And usually H2H is more likely for players to try their best until the very end than Mapscore. Map Score can be decided way earlier than H2H depending on the draw.
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first?
Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series.
Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too.
what if it was bo9 and TY 5-0ed showtime, would he still not deserve 1st place because of map total even though he clearly owns the other? Doesn't make sense...
Makes sense to me if TY performed that much worse vs the other players in the group. This is round robin and not Showtime vs TY (which it should only come down to at the same map score and if Showtime managed to get a better map score despite going 0-5 he deserves first).
You're just assuming that if they did it that way the results would have been the same though. Because after TY 2-0'd PsiArc he knew he had first place secured, there's a chance he was half-assing it in his last match against Kelazhur (keep in mind Digmouse said he had a cold so he's probably just happy when it's over), not scouting properly, cheesing himself or doing TaeJa GGs.
I'm not assuming that. I just say that the format should be that way, then maybe TY would've tried harder and won 5-0. Anyway it woulld still be better that way even if the result does not change, at least it makes sure every player tries on every map until the end.
If TY indeed did no try his hardest in the last match, it already proves that their ruleset is inferior imo.
in a RTS game, not every map is the same. You can lose the first map then adjust your play and win the next two maps. TY might lost 1 game to some players but he turned it back and won 2-1 -> he is better than those players. And TY won 2-0 against Showtime -> he is better than Showtime. That's it, only "better", not how much better, therefore 2-0 and 2-1 are all the same.
On January 13 2017 20:19 Musicus wrote: Pretty stupid that TY is first place with 8-4 vs the 9-2 from Showtime.
Ty beat showtime so its completely fair.
I know that, but still don't think it's fair, since Showtime performed better overall and this format should show who does the best vs all the opponents in the group first, instead of how 2 players did vs each other. Head to head should only come into play when two players haver the same map score imo.
But this opinion is obviously subjective, so I can see your point of view.
Well overall they both went 4-1 in series. I think this kind of tie should be a tie broken by head to head first, then map score if necessary (in this format its not).
Plus both ty and showtime knew they had 1st/2nd in their groups. I doubt there performances on the last series will be amazing (normally players just troll or have fun when the score cant effect their place haha).
So if TY had gone 2-1 in all his wins and had a 8-6 map score vs the 9-2 from Showtime, you still think that TY deserves first?
Every map should count imo, 4-1 in matches is not equal 4-1 in matches, 2-0 is worth more than 2-1 and this also makes sure that every player gives his best even in the last series.
Head to head should come after map score, it's standard and worked this way in other round robin tournaments like DH Winter etc. too.
what if it was bo9 and TY 5-0ed showtime, would he still not deserve 1st place because of map total even though he clearly owns the other? Doesn't make sense...
Makes sense to me if TY performed that much worse vs the other players in the group. This is round robin and not Showtime vs TY (which it should only come down to at the same map score and if Showtime managed to get a better map score despite going 0-5 he deserves first).
You're just assuming that if they did it that way the results would have been the same though. Because after TY 2-0'd PsiArc he knew he had first place secured, there's a chance he was half-assing it in his last match against Kelazhur (keep in mind Digmouse said he had a cold so he's probably just happy when it's over), not scouting properly, cheesing himself or doing TaeJa GGs.
I'm not assuming that. I just say that the format should be that way, then maybe TY would've tried harder and won 5-0. Anyway it woulld still be better that way even if the result does not change, at least it makes sure every player tries on every map until the end.
If TY indeed did no try his hardest in the last match, it already proves that their ruleset is inferior imo.
in a RTS game, not every map is the same. You can lose the first map then adjust your play and win the next two maps. TY might lost 1 game to some players but he turned it back and won 2-1 -> he is better than those players. And TY won 2-0 against Showtime -> he is better than Showtime. That's it, only "better", not how much better, therefore 2-0 and 2-1 are all the same.
That's what it comes down to (btw TY "only" won 2-1 vs Showtime).
But if you think 2:0 and 2-1 are the same we can agree to disagree.
On January 13 2017 21:22 ZiggyPG wrote: I still cant understand how Kelazhur lost to Psiarc and then beat TY
Maybe he cheesed TY. Maybe TY cheesed him. Maybe TY did TaeJa GGs and left when he didn't have to. The match was definitely over quick enough for one of those to be true.
All-Korean grand finals still possible, but with how TY played today he probably loses to Nerchio or Neeb. Actually I guess if he can beat Showtime he can beat Neeb but it'd be close.
regardless of the issues with round robin priority, i'm so happy to see it used here in WESG over stuff like SE32. thank goodness how awful that was and how nice it is for us to be able to watch players show off their skill on a somewhat broader scale. now if the entire pro scene could agree on a golden standard for h2h/mapscore/etc priority and stick to it we'd be making some good progress
On January 13 2017 21:27 Elentos wrote: All-Korean grand finals still possible, but with how TY played today he probably loses to Nerchio or Neeb. Actually I guess if he can beat Showtime he can beat Neeb but it'd be close.
TY's TvT is actually his weakest MU atm even though he just beat Maru 3-0 few weeks ago in qualifer. I dont see a chance of TY losing to either Nerchio or Neeb, especially in a bo5, he is a beast in a macro game and both Nerchio and Neeb are not known for cheeky play.
On January 13 2017 21:27 Elentos wrote: All-Korean grand finals still possible, but with how TY played today he probably loses to Nerchio or Neeb. Actually I guess if he can beat Showtime he can beat Neeb but it'd be close.
TY's TvT is actually his weakest MU atm even though he just beat Maru 3-0 few weeks ago in qualifer. I dont see a chance of TY losing to either Nerchio or Neeb, especially in a bo5, he is a beast in a macro game and both Nerchio and Neeb are not known for cheeky play.
Right now it's his weakest, yeah. Because of the patch (that came after the series against Maru) that removed tankivacs. He'll adjust to that eventually.
However, the fact that dropped a map to Cham (off stream so who knows how) and in a standard macro game to Showtime make Nerchio and Neeb seem a lot scarier.
On January 13 2017 21:27 Elentos wrote: All-Korean grand finals still possible, but with how TY played today he probably loses to Nerchio or Neeb. Actually I guess if he can beat Showtime he can beat Neeb but it'd be close.
TY's TvT is actually his weakest MU atm even though he just beat Maru 3-0 few weeks ago in qualifer. I dont see a chance of TY losing to either Nerchio or Neeb, especially in a bo5, he is a beast in a macro game and both Nerchio and Neeb are not known for cheeky play.
Right now it's his weakest, yeah. Because of the patch (that came after the series against Maru) that removed tankivacs. He'll adjust to that eventually.
However, the fact that dropped a map to Cham (off stream so who knows how) and in a standard macro game to Showtime make Nerchio and Neeb seem a lot scarier.
Nerchios tvz doesn't look very good right now considerin how hopeless he looked against Maru so I don't think he has a shot against TY especially not in bo5. And I think Showtimes pvt is better than Neebs who always struggled in the matchup so I don't think TY will have much difficulties advancing to the finals.
On January 13 2017 21:27 Elentos wrote: All-Korean grand finals still possible, but with how TY played today he probably loses to Nerchio or Neeb. Actually I guess if he can beat Showtime he can beat Neeb but it'd be close.
TY's TvT is actually his weakest MU atm even though he just beat Maru 3-0 few weeks ago in qualifer. I dont see a chance of TY losing to either Nerchio or Neeb, especially in a bo5, he is a beast in a macro game and both Nerchio and Neeb are not known for cheeky play.
Right now it's his weakest, yeah. Because of the patch (that came after the series against Maru) that removed tankivacs. He'll adjust to that eventually.
However, the fact that dropped a map to Cham (off stream so who knows how) and in a standard macro game to Showtime make Nerchio and Neeb seem a lot scarier.
Nerchios tvz doesn't look very good right now considerin how hopeless he looked against Maru so I don't think he has a shot against TY especially not in bo5. And I think Showtimes pvt is better than Neebs who always struggled in the matchup so I don't think TY will have much difficulties advancing to the finals.
With Nerchio its hard to call, as he isn't that consistent lately. Some days he is on fire and some days he make mistakes over and over. Mistakes like getting a second infestation pit at Hive time (or a second Ultra cavern), and other errors. I guess its about getting used to the new patch with the new builds. In nation wars, for example. he was doomed when Poland played Mexico, lost twice to Major. And on the other hand, a day (or two) later, at the quarter finals he all-killed the netherlands, which included two victories over Uthermal as well as a winning the same Harstem who beat him yesterday. So its up to which Nerchio shows up tomorrow. The one who beat Uthermal 2 times with a comeback in the first game has a decent chance of beating TY, the one who lost 2 times to Major and finished his group with a 3-2 record doesn't stand a chance.
Neeb is a good macro player and it seems like he lacks the variety to hold all-ins, early aggressions, making a comeback after being thrown off his plan in the very early game, and be aggressive from time to time. So if it was Neeb vs Maru I would say that Neeb doesn't have a chance, but vs TY who is more known for his Macro play may be Neeb has some chance. I'd say its 70-30 in a TY-Necrhio (again, depends highly upon which Nechio shows up tomorrow) match and 80-20 in a TY-Neeb match. But it still means TY has only 56% beating them both in the quarterfinals and sems (if they get there, and I think they will). In other words, he is most likely be in the finals, but I won't be that surprised if he won't be there.
I guess on the other side of the bracket Showtime will probably be the only challange for Maru, although Showtime may not even get there as in Blizzcon it seemed like a match vs Showtime is the comfort zone for Elazer. The thing going quite good for Showtime is that Elazer isn't in a great form lately.
Edit: The TY chance calculation here is irrelevant as the seeds has changed so that TY won't play both Neeb and Nerchio, at most one of them.
On January 13 2017 21:22 ZiggyPG wrote: I still cant understand how Kelazhur lost to Psiarc and then beat TY
Ty had already garanteed 1st place, whats likely is either he cheesed or got cheesed/didnt scout by kela. He probably wouldnt wouldn't play full force when it doesn't matter.
Edit:seeing how off-stream the match ended in a couple minutes that was probably the case. TY could have scv rushed for all we know. If they based it of map score then TY would have tried harder for sure
Regarding the tie breaking process my previous info was not correct, the rule was changed a week before the tournament but I only received the older version thus the misunderstanding.
What actually settles the group c tie is:
Head to head result: all 3 are 1-1 between them Map score different of the matches between them 3: Scarlett at +1, elazer at 0 and major at -1, so Scarlett and elazer advance in 2nd and 3rd places respectively.
On January 14 2017 01:52 Fango wrote: Okay now that I've seen the full bracket I think a showtime vs maru and nerchio vs ty are fairly likely semifinals.
Possible upsets are neeb beating nerchio, mlord beating TY, elazer beating showtime.
On January 14 2017 01:52 Fango wrote: Okay now that I've seen the full bracket I think a showtime vs maru and nerchio vs ty are fairly likely semifinals.
Possible upsets are neeb beating nerchio, mlord beating TY, elazer beating showtime.
Maru should win overall.
Nerchio vs TY would be Ro8.
Seems like the liquipedia WESG page has changed, and the winner of Namshar vs Nerchio will play Neeb in the RO8 while the winner of the french RO12 will play TY.
I won't be surprised if something changes by tomorrow...
On January 14 2017 01:52 Fango wrote: Okay now that I've seen the full bracket I think a showtime vs maru and nerchio vs ty are fairly likely semifinals.
Possible upsets are neeb beating nerchio, mlord beating TY, elazer beating showtime.
Maru should win overall.
Nerchio vs TY would be Ro8.
Seems like the liquipedia WESG page has changed, and the winner of Namshar vs Nerchio will play Neeb in the RO8 while the winner of the french RO12 will play TY.
I won't be surprised if something changes by tomorrow...
Wait really? They changed it again?
<.<
I guess if I wake up tomorrow and the whole bracket is fully inverted for no reason I won't be surprised at least. This makes it a bit easier for TY all things considered, Nerchio followed by Neeb would have been a much harder run.
On January 14 2017 01:52 Fango wrote: Okay now that I've seen the full bracket I think a showtime vs maru and nerchio vs ty are fairly likely semifinals.
Possible upsets are neeb beating nerchio, mlord beating TY, elazer beating showtime.
Maru should win overall.
Nerchio vs TY would be Ro8.
Seems like the liquipedia WESG page has changed, and the winner of Namshar vs Nerchio will play Neeb in the RO8 while the winner of the french RO12 will play TY.
I won't be surprised if something changes by tomorrow...
Wait really? They changed it again?
<.<
I guess if I wake up tomorrow and the whole bracket is fully inverted for no reason I won't be surprised at least. This makes it a bit easier for TY all things considered, Nerchio followed by Neeb would have been a much harder run.
Mlords never switched it on properly on an offline cup but of he gives it his all I reckon he could make it hard for TY. Given its his last cup
On January 14 2017 01:52 Fango wrote: Okay now that I've seen the full bracket I think a showtime vs maru and nerchio vs ty are fairly likely semifinals.
Possible upsets are neeb beating nerchio, mlord beating TY, elazer beating showtime.
Maru should win overall.
Nerchio vs TY would be Ro8.
Seems like the liquipedia WESG page has changed, and the winner of Namshar vs Nerchio will play Neeb in the RO8 while the winner of the french RO12 will play TY.
I won't be surprised if something changes by tomorrow...
Wait really? They changed it again?
<.<
I guess if I wake up tomorrow and the whole bracket is fully inverted for no reason I won't be surprised at least. This makes it a bit easier for TY all things considered, Nerchio followed by Neeb would have been a much harder run.
I don't think Liquipedia is the official bracket. The official matches can now be seen here.
I suppose the organizers didn't change a thing, it's just that Liquipedia got it wrong the first time.
On January 13 2017 22:32 Liquid`Snute wrote: regardless of the issues with round robin priority, i'm so happy to see it used here in WESG over stuff like SE32. thank goodness how awful that was and how nice it is for us to be able to watch players show off their skill on a somewhat broader scale. now if the entire pro scene could agree on a golden standard for h2h/mapscore/etc priority and stick to it we'd be making some good progress
Completely agree, so I'm excited for the IEM Katowice format that was just announced!
On January 14 2017 01:52 Fango wrote: Okay now that I've seen the full bracket I think a showtime vs maru and nerchio vs ty are fairly likely semifinals.
Possible upsets are neeb beating nerchio, mlord beating TY, elazer beating showtime.
Maru should win overall.
Nerchio vs TY would be Ro8.
Seems like the liquipedia WESG page has changed, and the winner of Namshar vs Nerchio will play Neeb in the RO8 while the winner of the french RO12 will play TY.
I won't be surprised if something changes by tomorrow...
Wait really? They changed it again?
<.<
I guess if I wake up tomorrow and the whole bracket is fully inverted for no reason I won't be surprised at least. This makes it a bit easier for TY all things considered, Nerchio followed by Neeb would have been a much harder run.
I don't think Liquipedia is the official bracket. The official matches can now be seen here.
I suppose the organizers didn't change a thing, it's just that Liquipedia got it wrong the first time.
I think the first bracket was added to Liquipedia by one of the admins of the event (Liquipedia had it way before the official site and such). Maybe they just messed up and put people in the wrong place despite knowing the bracket was the other way around (although it took a while to fix).
On January 13 2017 22:13 The_Red_Viper wrote: Imo map score and head to head are both bad ways to do this. Let them play extra games to decide the outcome. If that isn't possible throw a coin
I actually strongly disagree with using map-score when tied in matches. For one, it's unfair to compare two Bo3's like that. You have a different strategy for a Bo3 than you do for a Bo1 for a reason. If you beat 3 people in a Bo3, and lost to 2 people in a Bo3 with a mapscore of (+2), I consider that to be the exact same as beating 3 people, losing to 2 with a ms of (+3).
I also don't think it should matter who won the Bo3 between the two tied players either. That doesn't make any sense in a Round Robin. Especially because the strategy for a Bo3 could change depending on when it is played (if it's the last Bo3 in the whole RR, it's quite likely the players will be playing differently than if it were any of the others).
Unless there are extreme circumstances preventing them from doing so, it's obvious a tie-breaker should be played. I find nothing more ridiculous than progression in a tournament being decided by something so arbitrary.
On January 13 2017 22:13 The_Red_Viper wrote: Imo map score and head to head are both bad ways to do this. Let them play extra games to decide the outcome. If that isn't possible throw a coin
I actually strongly disagree with using map-score when tied in matches. For one, it's unfair to compare two Bo3's like that. You have a different strategy for a Bo3 than you do for a Bo1 for a reason. If you beat 3 people in a Bo3, and lost to 2 people in a Bo3 with a mapscore of (+2), I consider that to be the exact same as beating 3 people, losing to 2 with a ms of (+3). I also don't think it should matter who won the Bo3 between the two tied players either. That doesn't make any sense in a Round Robin.
Unless there are extreme circumstances preventing them from doing so, it's obvious a tie-breaker should be played. I find nothing more ridiculous than progression in a tournament being decided by something so arbitrary.
I don't really see why you wouldn't use head-to-head when it's a 2-way tie (not a 3-way tie). A tie breaker match in that situation is essentially the same thing. Maybe even with a psychological disadvantage for whoever won the round robin match (the pressure is now higher and you've shown your preferred strategies to win or maybe your opponent was even half-assing it and not showing theirs).
If it's a 3-way tie I'm totally down for having tie breaker matches, and if the schedule and all demands it they don't have to be streamed either.
Why would a tie-breaker match be the same thing?? It's an additional 'match' that prevents them from being tied in matches. I consider a match win to be the same, even if it's won with different map scores because that's the point of playing a Bo3 instead of just Bo1's...
Head to head is reasonable and makes logical sense. people like map score because that's the way DH did it and they're used to it, but in reality what matter is how many sets you win, not how many maps. It's like if other sports used the overall score differential in a seaon to determine playoff spots in tie situations over Head to head comparisons and strength of schedule.
On January 14 2017 05:41 Blargh wrote: Why would a tie-breaker match be the same thing?? It's an additional 'match' that prevents them from being tied in matches. I consider a match win to be the same, even if it's won with different map scores because that's the point of playing a Bo3 instead of just Bo1's...
You said it shouldn't matter who won the best of 3 between the tied players because it doesn't make sense for a round robin. Fair enough, maybe for a system that has everyone play everyone and is focused on who did the best overall across all opponents, looking at the result of the direct comparison between the 2 tied players to see who did better and should advance is not the right way.
So what is your proposed solution? Looking at the result of the direct comparison between the 2 tied players in a second match. Which really doesn't do much to change the "doesn't make sense for round robin" issue.
I feel pretty robbed tbh under no circumstances scarlett should be tied with us since she lose 2 less maps than me and elazer dhould b tied between me and elazer and i beat him xd
On January 14 2017 12:25 Major wrote: I feel pretty robbed tbh under no circumstances scarlett should be tied with us since she lose 2 less maps than me and elazer dhould b tied between me and elazer and i beat him xd
Well, they went by different rules, so they had to follow them. Its ok we got garbage games instead of u vs showtime, sorry papi.
On January 14 2017 01:52 Fango wrote: Okay now that I've seen the full bracket I think a showtime vs maru and nerchio vs ty are fairly likely semifinals.
Possible upsets are neeb beating nerchio, mlord beating TY, elazer beating showtime.
Maru should win overall.
Nerchio vs TY would be Ro8.
Seems like the liquipedia WESG page has changed, and the winner of Namshar vs Nerchio will play Neeb in the RO8 while the winner of the french RO12 will play TY.
I won't be surprised if something changes by tomorrow...
Wait really? They changed it again?
<.<
I guess if I wake up tomorrow and the whole bracket is fully inverted for no reason I won't be surprised at least. This makes it a bit easier for TY all things considered, Nerchio followed by Neeb would have been a much harder run.
I don't think Liquipedia is the official bracket. The official matches can now be seen here.
I suppose the organizers didn't change a thing, it's just that Liquipedia got it wrong the first time.
I think the first bracket was added to Liquipedia by one of the admins of the event (Liquipedia had it way before the official site and such). Maybe they just messed up and put people in the wrong place despite knowing the bracket was the other way around (although it took a while to fix).
The original bracket was added by a Dutch guy, and I doubt he is in China working for WESG. I don't think the WESG organization is updating Liquipedia at all.
I'm just saying this because as great as Liquipedia is, we need to remember that it's not the official source for results.
On January 14 2017 01:52 Fango wrote: Okay now that I've seen the full bracket I think a showtime vs maru and nerchio vs ty are fairly likely semifinals.
Possible upsets are neeb beating nerchio, mlord beating TY, elazer beating showtime.
Maru should win overall.
Nerchio vs TY would be Ro8.
Seems like the liquipedia WESG page has changed, and the winner of Namshar vs Nerchio will play Neeb in the RO8 while the winner of the french RO12 will play TY.
I won't be surprised if something changes by tomorrow...
Wait really? They changed it again?
<.<
I guess if I wake up tomorrow and the whole bracket is fully inverted for no reason I won't be surprised at least. This makes it a bit easier for TY all things considered, Nerchio followed by Neeb would have been a much harder run.
I don't think Liquipedia is the official bracket. The official matches can now be seen here.
I suppose the organizers didn't change a thing, it's just that Liquipedia got it wrong the first time.
I think the first bracket was added to Liquipedia by one of the admins of the event (Liquipedia had it way before the official site and such). Maybe they just messed up and put people in the wrong place despite knowing the bracket was the other way around (although it took a while to fix).
The original bracket was added by a Dutch guy, and I doubt he is in China working for WESG. I don't think the WESG organization is updating Liquipedia at all.
I'm just saying this because as great as Liquipedia is, we need to remember that it's not the official source for results.
This Dutch guy, no?
On January 14 2017 03:17 VanCaspel wrote: I'm in Changzhou to help as an admin
On January 14 2017 01:52 Fango wrote: Okay now that I've seen the full bracket I think a showtime vs maru and nerchio vs ty are fairly likely semifinals.
Possible upsets are neeb beating nerchio, mlord beating TY, elazer beating showtime.
Maru should win overall.
Nerchio vs TY would be Ro8.
Seems like the liquipedia WESG page has changed, and the winner of Namshar vs Nerchio will play Neeb in the RO8 while the winner of the french RO12 will play TY.
I won't be surprised if something changes by tomorrow...
Wait really? They changed it again?
<.<
I guess if I wake up tomorrow and the whole bracket is fully inverted for no reason I won't be surprised at least. This makes it a bit easier for TY all things considered, Nerchio followed by Neeb would have been a much harder run.
I don't think Liquipedia is the official bracket. The official matches can now be seen here.
I suppose the organizers didn't change a thing, it's just that Liquipedia got it wrong the first time.
I think the first bracket was added to Liquipedia by one of the admins of the event (Liquipedia had it way before the official site and such). Maybe they just messed up and put people in the wrong place despite knowing the bracket was the other way around (although it took a while to fix).
The original bracket was added by a Dutch guy, and I doubt he is in China working for WESG. I don't think the WESG organization is updating Liquipedia at all.
I'm just saying this because as great as Liquipedia is, we need to remember that it's not the official source for results.
EPT
WESG SC2 | 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0zGpOpr.png)
