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Game 3 of ByuN vs Dark was so good it caused Seeker to make a recommendation poll. Just gotta find it...
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Poll: Recommend Dark vs ByuN Game 3?★★★★★ - One of the Best Games this year (23) 61% ★★★★ - Good Game (9) 24% ★ - Do not watch no matter what (4) 11% ★★ - Watch if you have nothing better to do (1) 3% ★★★ - Average Game (1) 3% 38 total votes Your vote: Recommend Dark vs ByuN Game 3? (Vote): ★ - Do not watch no matter what
(Vote): ★★ - Watch if you have nothing better to do
(Vote): ★★★ - Average Game
(Vote): ★★★★ - Good Game
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the Best Games this year
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Damn i wanted to watch it by doing an all nighter and then i fell asleep -.-
GJ Dark!
It shows the problem i have with cross finals though, now the SSL and GSL champ lost and somebody else won (like in season 1), that's kinda anti hype tbh
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On September 25 2016 23:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Damn i wanted to watch it by doing an all nighter and then i fell asleep -.-
GJ Dark!
It shows the problem i have with cross finals though, now the SSL and GSL champ lost and somebody else won (like in season 1), that's kinda anti hype tbh
Is it? Imo in both cases the SSL runner-up beating the GSL champion and then getting their revenge against the SSL champion was way more hype as a storyline.
Also that's not really a problem with the Cross Finals themselves. If ByuN beat Dark it would have been different. It's the champions' fault they didn't prove their dominance by winning.
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On September 26 2016 00:21 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2016 23:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Damn i wanted to watch it by doing an all nighter and then i fell asleep -.-
GJ Dark!
It shows the problem i have with cross finals though, now the SSL and GSL champ lost and somebody else won (like in season 1), that's kinda anti hype tbh Is it? Imo in both cases the SSL runner-up beating the GSL champion and then getting their revenge against the SSL champion was way more hype as a storyline. Also that's not really a problem with the Cross Finals themselves. If ByuN beat Dark it would have been different. It's the champions' fault they didn't prove their dominance by winning.
I think it is. You just crowned your GSL/SSL champion and soon after somebody else wins against them the crossfinals.
It kinda devalues GSL/SSL imo. And yeah sure it is the fault of the champions, but at that top lvl it is simply that volatile.
Imo it would be better if only the actual champions would play and crown the overall winner of the season.
Or even better, remove the crossfinals and have another kespa cup.
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On September 25 2016 23:27 juicyjames wrote:
I missed it, were there any recommended matches?
Byun - Dark is definitely to be recommended
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On September 26 2016 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 00:21 Elentos wrote:On September 25 2016 23:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Damn i wanted to watch it by doing an all nighter and then i fell asleep -.-
GJ Dark!
It shows the problem i have with cross finals though, now the SSL and GSL champ lost and somebody else won (like in season 1), that's kinda anti hype tbh Is it? Imo in both cases the SSL runner-up beating the GSL champion and then getting their revenge against the SSL champion was way more hype as a storyline. Also that's not really a problem with the Cross Finals themselves. If ByuN beat Dark it would have been different. It's the champions' fault they didn't prove their dominance by winning. I think it is. You just crowned your GSL/SSL champion and soon after somebody else wins against them the crossfinals. It kinda devalues GSL/SSL imo. And yeah sure it is the fault of the champions, but at that top lvl it is simply that volatile. Imo it would be better if only the actual champions would play and crown the overall winner of the season. Or even better, remove the crossfinals and have another kespa cup.
But Blizzard doesn't support Global Events financially. So removing the Cross Finals does nothing for a KeSPA Cup.
The Cross Finals are just their way of getting away with no 3rd season of Korean SC2 relatively cheap anyway.
Also devaluing really? They already make each other look silly. Our SSL champion finished 25th-32nd in GSL mind you, the league most people would say was the weaker one this season. The season 1 Cross Finals champion didn't get through Code A. And Wolf even said that, even though Dark's performance was great, ultimately it was pretty meaningless because he didn't win one of the leagues, he only won some money and was the best player of the day.
People should know there's barely any stability in an environment where players have to juggle multiple competitions. So will this mini tournament really make people change their minds about the players involved? Or will they carry on with their opinions, still thinking ByuN is the best player in the world or whatever? That seems more likely to me. For me personally the only one who had a chance to change my mind about him was sOs and he didn't manage to.
In the end though I think they should have just brought back the Season Finals from 2013.
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On September 25 2016 22:26 Damusson wrote:No spoiler tags on results? That just ruined it for me 
I almost got caught by it when I scrolled down for vods. I ended up going to the YouTube esportsTV page, but I got spoiled anyways because the vods were not organized well (finals videos mixed in earlier than ro4 matches).
OP or mods, please edit the thread to have spoiler tags.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
The essential problem with cross finals is they are like the old 2013 WCS Season finals except with way less participants.
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On September 26 2016 01:30 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 26 2016 00:21 Elentos wrote:On September 25 2016 23:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Damn i wanted to watch it by doing an all nighter and then i fell asleep -.-
GJ Dark!
It shows the problem i have with cross finals though, now the SSL and GSL champ lost and somebody else won (like in season 1), that's kinda anti hype tbh Is it? Imo in both cases the SSL runner-up beating the GSL champion and then getting their revenge against the SSL champion was way more hype as a storyline. Also that's not really a problem with the Cross Finals themselves. If ByuN beat Dark it would have been different. It's the champions' fault they didn't prove their dominance by winning. I think it is. You just crowned your GSL/SSL champion and soon after somebody else wins against them the crossfinals. It kinda devalues GSL/SSL imo. And yeah sure it is the fault of the champions, but at that top lvl it is simply that volatile. Imo it would be better if only the actual champions would play and crown the overall winner of the season. Or even better, remove the crossfinals and have another kespa cup. But Blizzard doesn't support Global Events financially. So removing the Cross Finals does nothing for a KeSPA Cup. The Cross Finals are just their way of getting away with no 3rd season of Korean SC2 relatively cheap anyway. Also devaluing really? They already make each other look silly. Our SSL champion finished 25th-32nd in GSL mind you, the league most people would say was the weaker one this season. The season 1 Cross Finals champion didn't get through Code A. And Wolf even said that, even though Dark's performance was great, ultimately it was pretty meaningless because he didn't win one of the leagues, he only won some money and was the best player of the day. People should know there's barely any stability in an environment where players have to juggle multiple competitions. So will this mini tournament really make people change their minds about the players involved? Or will they carry on with their opinions, still thinking ByuN is the best player in the world or whatever? That seems more likely to me. For me personally the only one who had a chance to change my mind about him was sOs and he didn't manage to. In the end though I think they should have just brought back the Season Finals from 2013.
Well then Blizzard should support kespa cup instead of cross finals.
Don't get me wrong, for me personally this cross finals means basically nothing. But as a concept i think it is bad that you basically let the finalists of the two leagues play and thus kinda crown the champ of the season (that is the basic concept i would think).
In both cases a runner up won, which basically shows that anybody could have been champion of GSL/SSL anyway.
It would be a lot better if only the champions would play it out, that way we only have the storyline of one player "winning" the whole season.
Season finals had the same problem, you don't wanna crown a new champ right after the main leagues ended. That's kinda meh for storylines. (unless we really have one player who wins all, which is quite rare)
I guess it's not the biggest deal, but these cross finals feel underwhelming for multiple reasons and in a scene where the money is already an issue i don't feel like you should spend it that way :/
On September 26 2016 04:56 stuchiu wrote:
The essential problem with cross finals is they are like the old 2013 WCS Season finals except with way less participants.
Well the wcs season finals were better in the way that it felt more like a real tournament, but had the same problem that you essentially crown the "season champion" who most likely is not a champion of the main tournaments.
That's kinda underwhelming. Dear was the only exception iirc.
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Dark mentioned Nerchio in the post match interview which wasn't translated in TL:
http://sports.news.naver.com/esports/news/read.nhn?oid=442&aid=0000044097
Q: Nerchio has recently defeated many Koreans in a foreign tournament and shown confidence. What are your thoughts on that?
A: I looked up the VODs, but I don't see any difference(from past foreigners). As far as I know the tournament was held in European server, and he won't be much of a threat if he plays in Korea.
It seems Dark isn't aware that the games were played on neutral server.
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On September 26 2016 06:05 highsis wrote:
It seems Dark isn't aware that the games were played on neutral server.
He always seemed to me a little bit cocky 
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On September 26 2016 06:34 slit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 06:05 highsis wrote:
It seems Dark isn't aware that the games were played on neutral server.
He always seemed to me a little bit cocky
I don't know if it's Korean thing or Dark but they almost always 'assume' these online tournaments give ping disadvantage to Koreans.
Dark is the best zerg player in the world but it is kinda lame that the tournament organizer's efforts to make it fair for both Koreans and foreigners gets ignored by prejudice.
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United States97276 Posts
On September 26 2016 06:05 highsis wrote:Dark mentioned Nerchio in the post match interview which wasn't translated in TL: http://sports.news.naver.com/esports/news/read.nhn?oid=442&aid=0000044097Q: Nerchio has recently defeated many Koreans in a foreign tournament and shown confidence. What are your thoughts on that? A: I looked up the VODs, but I don't see any difference(from past foreigners). As far as I know the tournament was held in European server, and he won't be much of a threat if he plays in Korea. It seems Dark isn't aware that the games were played on neutral server.
which is interesting because he played in one of the king of the hills
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On September 26 2016 05:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 01:30 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 26 2016 00:21 Elentos wrote:On September 25 2016 23:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Damn i wanted to watch it by doing an all nighter and then i fell asleep -.-
GJ Dark!
It shows the problem i have with cross finals though, now the SSL and GSL champ lost and somebody else won (like in season 1), that's kinda anti hype tbh Is it? Imo in both cases the SSL runner-up beating the GSL champion and then getting their revenge against the SSL champion was way more hype as a storyline. Also that's not really a problem with the Cross Finals themselves. If ByuN beat Dark it would have been different. It's the champions' fault they didn't prove their dominance by winning. I think it is. You just crowned your GSL/SSL champion and soon after somebody else wins against them the crossfinals. It kinda devalues GSL/SSL imo. And yeah sure it is the fault of the champions, but at that top lvl it is simply that volatile. Imo it would be better if only the actual champions would play and crown the overall winner of the season. Or even better, remove the crossfinals and have another kespa cup. But Blizzard doesn't support Global Events financially. So removing the Cross Finals does nothing for a KeSPA Cup. The Cross Finals are just their way of getting away with no 3rd season of Korean SC2 relatively cheap anyway. Also devaluing really? They already make each other look silly. Our SSL champion finished 25th-32nd in GSL mind you, the league most people would say was the weaker one this season. The season 1 Cross Finals champion didn't get through Code A. And Wolf even said that, even though Dark's performance was great, ultimately it was pretty meaningless because he didn't win one of the leagues, he only won some money and was the best player of the day. People should know there's barely any stability in an environment where players have to juggle multiple competitions. So will this mini tournament really make people change their minds about the players involved? Or will they carry on with their opinions, still thinking ByuN is the best player in the world or whatever? That seems more likely to me. For me personally the only one who had a chance to change my mind about him was sOs and he didn't manage to. In the end though I think they should have just brought back the Season Finals from 2013. Well then Blizzard should support kespa cup instead of cross finals. Don't get me wrong, for me personally this cross finals means basically nothing. But as a concept i think it is bad that you basically let the finalists of the two leagues play and thus kinda crown the champ of the season (that is the basic concept i would think). In both cases a runner up won, which basically shows that anybody could have been champion of GSL/SSL anyway. It would be a lot better if only the champions would play it out, that way we only have the storyline of one player "winning" the whole season. Season finals had the same problem, you don't wanna crown a new champ right after the main leagues ended. That's kinda meh for storylines. (unless we really have one player who wins all, which is quite rare) I guess it's not the biggest deal, but these cross finals feel underwhelming for multiple reasons and in a scene where the money is already an issue i don't feel like you should spend it that way :/ On September 26 2016 04:56 stuchiu wrote:
The essential problem with cross finals is they are like the old 2013 WCS Season finals except with way less participants. Well the wcs season finals were better in the way that it felt more like a real tournament, but had the same problem that you essentially crown the "season champion" who most likely is not a champion of the main tournaments. That's kinda underwhelming. Dear was the only exception iirc.
If you only have the champions play there's no point in having the event because you're done after like 90 minutes tho. And I would argue that one of the key points of the Cross Finals - and the reason the winner gets 1000 WCS points - is likely to help out the runner-ups in the race for Blizzcon.
And yes, Dear was technically the only one who actually won both. But let's be honest INnoVation only lost his GSL finals by accident and he proved it a week later. And 2 out of 3 ain't bad. Or so I heard.
The other one was Maru going out against aLive and Scarlett which I'm sure in hindsight Noonius still finds highly delightful. Actually that season none of the champions got through the group stage.
But at least the Cross Finals this year weren't total stomps. In 2013 every Season Final was a 4-0.
On September 26 2016 06:48 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 06:05 highsis wrote:Dark mentioned Nerchio in the post match interview which wasn't translated in TL: http://sports.news.naver.com/esports/news/read.nhn?oid=442&aid=0000044097Q: Nerchio has recently defeated many Koreans in a foreign tournament and shown confidence. What are your thoughts on that? A: I looked up the VODs, but I don't see any difference(from past foreigners). As far as I know the tournament was held in European server, and he won't be much of a threat if he plays in Korea. It seems Dark isn't aware that the games were played on neutral server. which is interesting because he played in one of the king of the hills
He only had to play KR vs KR against Dear though. So he probably didn't care about the rest 
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On September 26 2016 06:58 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 05:05 The_Red_Viper wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 26 2016 01:30 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 00:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 26 2016 00:21 Elentos wrote:On September 25 2016 23:48 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Damn i wanted to watch it by doing an all nighter and then i fell asleep -.-
GJ Dark!
It shows the problem i have with cross finals though, now the SSL and GSL champ lost and somebody else won (like in season 1), that's kinda anti hype tbh Is it? Imo in both cases the SSL runner-up beating the GSL champion and then getting their revenge against the SSL champion was way more hype as a storyline. Also that's not really a problem with the Cross Finals themselves. If ByuN beat Dark it would have been different. It's the champions' fault they didn't prove their dominance by winning. I think it is. You just crowned your GSL/SSL champion and soon after somebody else wins against them the crossfinals. It kinda devalues GSL/SSL imo. And yeah sure it is the fault of the champions, but at that top lvl it is simply that volatile. Imo it would be better if only the actual champions would play and crown the overall winner of the season. Or even better, remove the crossfinals and have another kespa cup. But Blizzard doesn't support Global Events financially. So removing the Cross Finals does nothing for a KeSPA Cup. The Cross Finals are just their way of getting away with no 3rd season of Korean SC2 relatively cheap anyway. Also devaluing really? They already make each other look silly. Our SSL champion finished 25th-32nd in GSL mind you, the league most people would say was the weaker one this season. The season 1 Cross Finals champion didn't get through Code A. And Wolf even said that, even though Dark's performance was great, ultimately it was pretty meaningless because he didn't win one of the leagues, he only won some money and was the best player of the day. People should know there's barely any stability in an environment where players have to juggle multiple competitions. So will this mini tournament really make people change their minds about the players involved? Or will they carry on with their opinions, still thinking ByuN is the best player in the world or whatever? That seems more likely to me. For me personally the only one who had a chance to change my mind about him was sOs and he didn't manage to. In the end though I think they should have just brought back the Season Finals from 2013. Well then Blizzard should support kespa cup instead of cross finals. Don't get me wrong, for me personally this cross finals means basically nothing. But as a concept i think it is bad that you basically let the finalists of the two leagues play and thus kinda crown the champ of the season (that is the basic concept i would think). In both cases a runner up won, which basically shows that anybody could have been champion of GSL/SSL anyway. It would be a lot better if only the champions would play it out, that way we only have the storyline of one player "winning" the whole season. Season finals had the same problem, you don't wanna crown a new champ right after the main leagues ended. That's kinda meh for storylines. (unless we really have one player who wins all, which is quite rare) I guess it's not the biggest deal, but these cross finals feel underwhelming for multiple reasons and in a scene where the money is already an issue i don't feel like you should spend it that way :/ On September 26 2016 04:56 stuchiu wrote:
The essential problem with cross finals is they are like the old 2013 WCS Season finals except with way less participants. Well the wcs season finals were better in the way that it felt more like a real tournament, but had the same problem that you essentially crown the "season champion" who most likely is not a champion of the main tournaments. That's kinda underwhelming. Dear was the only exception iirc. If you only have the champions play there's no point in having the event because you're done after like 90 minutes tho. And I would argue that one of the key points of the Cross Finals - and the reason the winner gets 1000 WCS points - is likely to help out the runner-ups in the race for Blizzcon. And yes, Dear was technically the only one who actually won both. But let's be honest INnoVation only lost his GSL finals by accident and he proved it a week later. And 2 out of 3 ain't bad. Or so I heard. The other one was Maru going out against aLive and Scarlett which I'm sure in hindsight Noonius still finds highly delightful. Actually that season none of the champions got through the group stage. But at least the Cross Finals this year weren't total stomps. In 2013 every Season Final was a 4-0.
Well yeah if only the champions play then the event doesn't produce enoug content. I am sure you could find a way to fill it somehow though. Showmatches, maybe have a third place match with the runner ups (even though in general i dislike that haha), etc.
I mean the runner ups already get more points than anyone who wasn't a runner up, makes little sense to me to do it because of that :D If you wanna put more importance on second place you can do that just fine in the main tournament.
Sure Innovation should have won the gsl, but he didn not, so it stays at 1 out of 3 It's how sc2 works, the best players can beat each other depending on day form, etc. Personally i would prefer storylines which are about big champions, that way an upset actually is one. If you have the GSL champ and SSL champ and none of them wins the cross finals a short time after then it doesn't paint the most stable hierarchy. (maybe most people actually prefer new champion after new champion, would seem weird to me though tbh?)
I mean i take the cross finals because it is more korean content, but it feels like it shouldn't be a thing. At least not in that execution. The dramatic structure is off imo.
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With that being said, i surely will watch the games. Shame that i fell asleep -.-
Dark vs Byun was good i heard, Solar vs Dark as well?
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Dark vs Byun was good i heard, Solar vs Dark as well?
I liked it a lot, just like the actual SSL finals between them
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Ok will check out both series then. Not really interested in Solar vs sOs tbh^^
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On September 26 2016 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I mean the runner ups already get more points than anyone who wasn't a runner up, makes little sense to me to do it because of that :D If you wanna put more importance on second place you can do that just fine in the main tournament.
The runner-up gets 2800 points, maybe 3000 if it's season 1 and they get seeded into the next one. You can see with sOs that just being the runner-up isn't enough points. Now, you could say "But sOs didn't do anything in the other Korean tournaments and wouldn't have made Blizzcon even if he won", which is a valid point. But Stats, who did quite a bit better, would be fighting for his Blizzcon life in KeSPA Cup without the points from the Cross Finals. So these points actually matter in the end.
And realistically, how many interesting showmatches could you produce for the Cross Finals? With no prize money. The first CF was one day after a Proleague round finals, this one was two days before KeSPA Cup. How many pros will you find, willing and able to do this showmatch, for no gain, and who the fans want to see play?
Also I don't really get your point about storylines. On the one hand you say you would want your champions to appear big and uncontested for as long as possible, preferably having them lose as few matches against non-champions as possible. On the other hand you admitted that the playing field at the top is incredibly close and that anyone can beat anyone. So you're asking for a story about something that doesn't exist in Starcraft 2 right now.
You want the system to pretend big, dominant champions exist, even though you know the result of the finals could be the opposite if they replay on any other day. I mean, I can't deny that there is appeal to made-up stories, but I'm sure in this case it would be more interesting if the story actually happened.
Oh and one last thing. I got up early to watch this for the sole reason of watching Dark play ByuN in a best of 5. The only chance to see that outside of Blizzcon - where there's no guarantee it'll happen. And I wasn't disappointed. So yeah, I will gladly take dethroned champions and whatever story comes with them if it means I get to see matches I wanted to see.
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EPT
