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On September 26 2016 08:05 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 07:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I mean the runner ups already get more points than anyone who wasn't a runner up, makes little sense to me to do it because of that :D If you wanna put more importance on second place you can do that just fine in the main tournament.
The runner-up gets 2800 points, maybe 3000 if it's season 1 and they get seeded into the next one. You can see with sOs that just being the runner-up isn't enough points. Now, you could say "But sOs didn't do anything in the other Korean tournaments and wouldn't have made Blizzcon even if he won", which is a valid point. But Stats, who did quite a bit better, would be fighting for his Blizzcon life in KeSPA Cup without the points from the Cross Finals. So these points actually matter in the end. And realistically, how many interesting showmatches could you produce for the Cross Finals? With no prize money. The first CF was one day after a Proleague round finals, this one was two days before KeSPA Cup. How many pros will you find, willing and able to do this showmatch, for no gain, and who the fans want to see play? Also I don't really get your point about storylines. On the one hand you say you would want your champions to appear big and uncontested for as long as possible, preferably having them lose as few matches against non-champions as possible. On the other hand you admitted that the playing field at the top is incredibly close and that anyone can beat anyone. So you're asking for a story about something that doesn't exist in Starcraft 2 right now. You want the system to pretend big, dominant champions exist, even though you know the result of the finals could be the opposite if they replay on any other day. I mean, I can't deny that there is appeal to made-up stories, but I'm sure in this case it would be more interesting if the story actually happened. Oh and one last thing. I got up early to watch this for the sole reason of watching Dark play ByuN in a best of 5. The only chance to see that outside of Blizzcon - where there's no guarantee it'll happen. And I wasn't disappointed. So yeah, I will gladly take dethroned champions and whatever story comes with them if it means I get to see matches I wanted to see.
The point is that if you think the point distribution doesn't value runner ups enough you don't need to create a different tournament where there is the potential to get more points ONLY for them. You simply change the amount of points they get in the main tournaments.
At the end of the day the relative point distribution is what matters for players.
Regarding that Stats example: Getting 2nd and 5-8th got him 4k points. Patience got 3600 for being both times 3th/4th.
Stats already got more points for a similar achievement because 2nd apaprently is valued more relatively speaking.
Then he also had the chance to get even more points in the cross finals, something the other players cannot do.
I don't think the system is good in this case at all tbh. (this gets even more clear when looking at Dear)
I mean sure i get that it would be hard to fill the evening if only the champs play. I am not gonna deny that, you are right.
I still think it would be better dramatically.
That's how storylines work though. Mvp being the greatest of the greatest "having a two year reign" is a made up concept as well. You could say that the truth is that anybody can beat anybody and we should accept that. But if we follow that logic to an extreme and don't even have seeds for the next season so everyone has to qualify for each season, we simply might get a new champion each season (or even worse we won't even have the common "s class" players playing in each one)
There always is a thin line between having the fairest system possible and trying to get certain storylines going. At the end of the day it's still an entertainment product.
So yeah i don't neccessarily want to test my new crowned champion the next day to see him potentially lose (extreme example) because that storyline simply sucks.
And yeah i also wanted to watch the cross finals because Byun vs Dark looked very interesting on paper and in general korean sc2 is on hiatus atm. That's the positive aspect of it, more content.
I still think we could get better content instead of it for the same amount of money 
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On September 26 2016 04:56 stuchiu wrote:
The essential problem with cross finals is they are like the old 2013 WCS Season finals except with way less participants.
and those were super hype. Personally the first two finals were the best tournaments of 2013 for me
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On September 26 2016 08:39 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 04:56 stuchiu wrote:
The essential problem with cross finals is they are like the old 2013 WCS Season finals except with way less participants. and those were super hype. Personally the first two finals were the best tournaments of 2013 for me
especially season 2 finals was one of the best tournaments ever. probably the tournament with the most entertaining games.
INnoVation vs TaeJa, TaeJa vs Rain, MC vs Jaedong, Scarlett vs Bomber; then the foreigner storylines with Scarlett and Naniwa both making it into the playoffs and Bomber finally winning a big tournament.
that tournament was just amazing.
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I don't think the Cross Finals devalues the Starleagues. In a year's time or longer, it is the Starleague champions who will burn into people's memories.
I have even trouble remembering the past KeSPA Cup champions (Dark & soO?).
But these two seasons of Cross Finals have produced some high quality games (Byun v Dark was like 5x better than the GSL final itself). Of course having more KeSPA Cups will be better. But I rather have the Cross Finals than nothing at all.
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Canada8989 Posts
On September 26 2016 11:16 RKC wrote:
I don't think the Cross Finals devalues the Starleagues. In a year's time or longer, it is the Starleague champions who will burn into people's memories.
I have even trouble remembering the past KeSPA Cup champions (Dark & soO?).
But these two seasons of Cross Finals have produced some high quality games (Byun v Dark was like 5x better than the GSL final itself). Of course having more KeSPA Cups will be better. But I rather have the Cross Finals than nothing at all.
Can't believe forgot the greatest final of all time SoS-MKP, never before and never after have we seen such a strategic masterclass. SoS genius brain analysing the style of MarineKing and then coming up with the perfect strategy "building a Zealot!".
And then MKP adapt to the situation by doing, and I could not believe it, doing absolutely nothing and losing the series.
+ Show Spoiler +But seriously I still watch the game 3 from time to time, "he is a human being... WITH FEELING" crack me up every time
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I thought korean Zergs were not good?
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On September 26 2016 13:10 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 11:16 RKC wrote:
I don't think the Cross Finals devalues the Starleagues. In a year's time or longer, it is the Starleague champions who will burn into people's memories.
I have even trouble remembering the past KeSPA Cup champions (Dark & soO?).
But these two seasons of Cross Finals have produced some high quality games (Byun v Dark was like 5x better than the GSL final itself). Of course having more KeSPA Cups will be better. But I rather have the Cross Finals than nothing at all. Can't believe forgot the greatest final of all time SoS-MKP, never before and never after have we seen such a strategic masterclass. SoS genius brain analysing the style of MarineKing and then coming up with the perfect strategy "building a Zealot!". And then MKP adapt to the situation by doing, and I could not believe it, doing absolutely nothing and losing the series. + Show Spoiler +But seriously I still watch the game 3 from time to time, "he is a human being... WITH FEELING" crack me up every time
sOs-MKP was in Hot6ix Cup, not KeSPA Cup.
The KeSPA Cups winners last year were herO and soO (both against Dark)
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On September 26 2016 08:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:
So yeah i don't neccessarily want to test my new crowned champion the next day to see him potentially lose (extreme example) because that storyline simply sucks.
This was 2 weeks after the SSL finals. How long are we supposed to have to wait until the champions get tested? KeSPA Cup starts tomorrow with ByuN's group. Would 2 weeks and 2 days have been significantly better? And we're in the off-season now. Beside the Cross Finals and KeSPA Cup, there is nothing until Blizzcon. Supposing those didn't exist, or the CF is just the champions playing each other and both fail the qualifiers for KeSPA Cup (which I'm sure you wouldn't really care about because it was online), going into Blizzcon, what are ByuN and Solar? Big champions in a 2 month reign, or players who haven't faced offline competition in 2 months? I'd go with the second option.
The point is, a champion who doesn't have to prove their dominance isn't an interesting storyline to me.
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On September 26 2016 08:03 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Ok will check out both series then. Not really interested in Solar vs sOs tbh^^
That is the only one, I watched ... but it looked like if sOs did not take it seriously, he was just trying new, unexpected builds ... the first one was quite entertaining and it worked, the other ones got demolished hard by Solar.
But I will also check the ByuN vs Dark one.
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Byun´s loss was so heart-breaking ;(
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wow what an amazing series in Dark vs ByuN, all coming down to ByuN not lifting his CC in game 5h tho ;___;
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On September 26 2016 14:38 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
I thought korean Zergs were not good?
Who have you been talking too? Foreigners who think they know better? Thing with korean zergs in the history of sc2 is there is always one or two super good ones. Everyone else sucks. Awhile ago no one knew how to deal with terran, but rogue fixed that. Not to mention dark is a badass, and solar just played a bunch of toss.
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On September 26 2016 08:39 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 04:56 stuchiu wrote:
The essential problem with cross finals is they are like the old 2013 WCS Season finals except with way less participants. and those were super hype. Personally the first two finals were the best tournaments of 2013 for me
I absolutely LOVED the seasons finals as well. I really liked this format and I think it could still work and generate tons of hype (top 8 from WCS and top 8 from KR leagues for instance).
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On September 26 2016 22:45 Ej_ wrote:
wow what an amazing series in Dark vs ByuN, all coming down to ByuN not lifting his CC in game 5h tho ;___;
worth catching up to ?
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On September 26 2016 23:51 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 22:45 Ej_ wrote:
wow what an amazing series in Dark vs ByuN, all coming down to ByuN not lifting his CC in game 5h tho ;___; worth catching up to ?
Yes.
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On September 26 2016 17:27 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 08:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:
So yeah i don't neccessarily want to test my new crowned champion the next day to see him potentially lose (extreme example) because that storyline simply sucks.
This was 2 weeks after the SSL finals. How long are we supposed to have to wait until the champions get tested? KeSPA Cup starts tomorrow with ByuN's group. Would 2 weeks and 2 days have been significantly better? And we're in the off-season now. Beside the Cross Finals and KeSPA Cup, there is nothing until Blizzcon. Supposing those didn't exist, or the CF is just the champions playing each other and both fail the qualifiers for KeSPA Cup (which I'm sure you wouldn't really care about because it was online), going into Blizzcon, what are ByuN and Solar? Big champions in a 2 month reign, or players who haven't faced offline competition in 2 months? I'd go with the second option. The point is, a champion who doesn't have to prove their dominance isn't an interesting storyline to me.
The problem in this case isn't necessarily that the cross finals happens soon after the main tournaments, it's that it's basically crowning the best player of the season. The champion of the champions. When a runner up wins this it's just a bad storyline and actively shows how volatile it is at the top. There is no reason to design it that way other than having more content.
Kespa Cup is at least a new tournament with 16 players. If the GSL/SSL champ doesn't win this one it's at least not directly related to the starleagues.
This is a lot about appearance because in the end there isn't much difference, i understand that. But it still matters i think.
See i am not saying i wanna have total artificially created big champions, etc. As i said before there is a thin line to walk.
I also want my champions to defend their status. I don't think it is necessarly a good idea to do it like the cross finals though. It just feels different having a completely new tournament going on where a lot of top players have to fight through it. Cross finals places the best 4 players of starleagues into "semis" and the chance we get a runner up winning is pretty high. So you either look at it and say it's a worthless tournament (which most people seem to do? Including me; worthless as in prestige) Or you look at it and pretend Stats and Dark winning it means they are the champions of the season because they won the "cross finals".
Both situations i am not happy with tbh. I guess we should be happy about extra korean content, but it could be much, much better
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On September 27 2016 00:51 The_Red_Viper wrote:
and actively shows how volatile it is at the top.
It's just showing the scene how it is. And yes, having more content is why the Cross Finals exist in the first place. An excuse to better get away with only 2 seasons of Korean Starcraft.
I'm not saying the Cross Finals as they exist are the ideal solution in a perfect world. But we're not in that perfect world. Sure, they could do more. They could do better with the Korean scene. But I think the WCS changes for this year showed pretty clearly that that was not their focus.
And with that I'm pretty happy with how CFs turned out.
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Yeah well i already have fulfilled my negativity workload for today i guess. Let's just say i am unhappy with it and i think for most people it's just a little extra content without much meaning.
With that being said though, Dark vs Byun was pretty good. Need to still watch the finals later today
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EPT
