On February 24 2015 23:40 OtherWorld wrote: Ok avancing from the EU qualifier : Snute, Bunny and MaNa. LIQUID'FIGHTING, I believe.
hahahahaha of course
Honestly apart from sOs, soO and PartinG there aren't many top-tier KR signed up. And those three can take them down.
sOs will be exhausted and playing with lag, I doubt he'll make it. soO and PartinG didn't look good anyway in the previous qualifiers. I think we'll get some foreign representation. Did Serral and Snute register ?
He can play against Korean players on KR server and considering that he probably is going to be top-4 seed, he might not face decent foreign players at all.
Rogue, Cure are my favourites probably with sOs/PartinG/soO/MC advancing as well.
On February 24 2015 23:35 KatatoniK wrote: Eurgh, this is why I fucking hate Swarm Hosts, free units are dumb. Protoss can't possibly trade well against that :/
Please tell me how else dark would be able to fight that army?
I'm so sick of this excuse. How about trying to innovate?
Like we haven't done that? Blink stalker is just so strong, since infestors suck dick, SH is the only realy option.
I hope lurkers solve that issue in LotV.
it's an issue in his dreams, you can totally play w/o sh in zvp except superlategame. and you can play zvp style that'll never reach this stage.
You surprise me, I was quite convinced SH was needed at the highest level to deal with lategame compositions. For instance colossi + templars without SHs : except don't let him do that, how do you manage to deal with it ?
You don't. The only successful top Zergs in ZvP right now are aggro Zergs (aka "don't let him do that") or SH-based players. You can play Roach/Hydra/Vipers but it's a gamble and is not a long-term comp. You can also try to go full air (muta/corruptor) but it's boooooooooooooooooring to play. The only other viable option is to force a basetrade, preferably with a muta switch.
Relying on "well don't let him get there" has always been a thing. It's the very basic concept of rushing. "Can't win later? Just rush before he gets there" - I thought we'd all agree that while it should be a thing, it shouldn't be the only option.
On February 24 2015 23:40 OtherWorld wrote: Ok avancing from the EU qualifier : Snute, Bunny and MaNa. LIQUID'FIGHTING, I believe.
hahahahaha of course
Honestly apart from sOs, soO and PartinG there aren't many top-tier KR signed up. And those three can take them down.
sOs will be exhausted and playing with lag, I doubt he'll make it. soO and PartinG didn't look good anyway in the previous qualifiers. I think we'll get some foreign representation. Did Serral and Snute register ?
He can play against Korean players on KR ladder and considering that he probably is going to be top-4 seed, he might not face decent foreign players at all.
Rogue, Cure are my favourites probably with sOs/PartinG/soO/MC advancing as well.
Is ForGG signed up? On his own turf it'd be quite an advantage for him.
On February 24 2015 23:40 OtherWorld wrote: Ok avancing from the EU qualifier : Snute, Bunny and MaNa. LIQUID'FIGHTING, I believe.
hahahahaha of course
Honestly apart from sOs, soO and PartinG there aren't many top-tier KR signed up. And those three can take them down.
sOs will be exhausted and playing with lag, I doubt he'll make it. soO and PartinG didn't look good anyway in the previous qualifiers. I think we'll get some foreign representation. Did Serral and Snute register ?
He can play against Korean players on KR ladder and considering that he probably is going to be top-4 seed, he might not face decent foreign players at all.
Rogue, Cure are my favourites probably with sOs/PartinG/soO/MC advancing as well.
Is ForGG signed up? On his own turf it'd be quite an advantage for him.
On February 24 2015 23:35 KatatoniK wrote: Eurgh, this is why I fucking hate Swarm Hosts, free units are dumb. Protoss can't possibly trade well against that :/
Please tell me how else dark would be able to fight that army?
I'm so sick of this excuse. How about trying to innovate?
Like we haven't done that? Blink stalker is just so strong, since infestors suck dick, SH is the only realy option.
I hope lurkers solve that issue in LotV.
it's an issue in his dreams, you can totally play w/o sh in zvp except superlategame. and you can play zvp style that'll never reach this stage.
You surprise me, I was quite convinced SH was needed at the highest level to deal with lategame compositions. For instance colossi + templars without SHs : except don't let him do that, how do you manage to deal with it ?
You don't. The only successful top Zergs in ZvP right now are aggro Zergs (aka "don't let him do that") or SH-based players. You can play Roach/Hydra/Vipers but it's a gamble and is not a long-term comp. You can also try to go full air (muta/corruptor) but it's boooooooooooooooooring to play. The only other viable option is to force a basetrade, preferably with a muta switch.
Relying on "well don't let him get there" has always been a thing. It's the very basic concept of rushing. "Can't win later? Just rush before he gets there" - I thought we'd all agree that while it should be a thing, it shouldn't be the only option.
the main problem here is that there is another option: turtling SH. Which sucks for most ppl (players and viewers)
On February 24 2015 23:35 KatatoniK wrote: Eurgh, this is why I fucking hate Swarm Hosts, free units are dumb. Protoss can't possibly trade well against that :/
Please tell me how else dark would be able to fight that army?
I'm so sick of this excuse. How about trying to innovate?
Like we haven't done that? Blink stalker is just so strong, since infestors suck dick, SH is the only realy option.
I hope lurkers solve that issue in LotV.
it's an issue in his dreams, you can totally play w/o sh in zvp except superlategame. and you can play zvp style that'll never reach this stage.
You surprise me, I was quite convinced SH was needed at the highest level to deal with lategame compositions. For instance colossi + templars without SHs : except don't let him do that, how do you manage to deal with it ?
You don't. The only successful top Zergs in ZvP right now are aggro Zergs (aka "don't let him do that") or SH-based players. You can play Roach/Hydra/Vipers but it's a gamble and is not a long-term comp. You can also try to go full air (muta/corruptor) but it's boooooooooooooooooring to play. The only other viable option is to force a basetrade, preferably with a muta switch.
Relying on "well don't let him get there" has always been a thing. It's the very basic concept of rushing. "Can't win later? Just rush before he gets there" - I thought we'd all agree that while it should be a thing, it shouldn't be the only option.
the main problem here is that there is another option: turtling SH. Which sucks for most ppl (players and viewers)
Yes obviously, I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that people shouldn't blame them if the other option is just risky and gimmicky.
On February 24 2015 23:35 KatatoniK wrote: Eurgh, this is why I fucking hate Swarm Hosts, free units are dumb. Protoss can't possibly trade well against that :/
Please tell me how else dark would be able to fight that army?
I'm so sick of this excuse. How about trying to innovate?
Like we haven't done that? Blink stalker is just so strong, since infestors suck dick, SH is the only realy option.
I hope lurkers solve that issue in LotV.
it's an issue in his dreams, you can totally play w/o sh in zvp except superlategame. and you can play zvp style that'll never reach this stage.
You surprise me, I was quite convinced SH was needed at the highest level to deal with lategame compositions. For instance colossi + templars without SHs : except don't let him do that, how do you manage to deal with it ?
You don't. The only successful top Zergs in ZvP right now are aggro Zergs (aka "don't let him do that") or SH-based players. You can play Roach/Hydra/Vipers but it's a gamble and is not a long-term comp. You can also try to go full air (muta/corruptor) but it's boooooooooooooooooring to play. The only other viable option is to force a basetrade, preferably with a muta switch.
Relying on "well don't let him get there" has always been a thing. It's the very basic concept of rushing. "Can't win later? Just rush before he gets there" - I thought we'd all agree that while it should be a thing, it shouldn't be the only option.
the main problem here is that there is another option: turtling SH. Which sucks for most ppl (players and viewers)
Well yeah but you can't ask for rushes to be the only option, can you?
On February 24 2015 23:35 KatatoniK wrote: Eurgh, this is why I fucking hate Swarm Hosts, free units are dumb. Protoss can't possibly trade well against that :/
Please tell me how else dark would be able to fight that army?
I'm so sick of this excuse. How about trying to innovate?
Like we haven't done that? Blink stalker is just so strong, since infestors suck dick, SH is the only realy option.
I hope lurkers solve that issue in LotV.
it's an issue in his dreams, you can totally play w/o sh in zvp except superlategame. and you can play zvp style that'll never reach this stage.
You surprise me, I was quite convinced SH was needed at the highest level to deal with lategame compositions. For instance colossi + templars without SHs : except don't let him do that, how do you manage to deal with it ?
You don't. The only successful top Zergs in ZvP right now are aggro Zergs (aka "don't let him do that") or SH-based players. You can play Roach/Hydra/Vipers but it's a gamble and is not a long-term comp. You can also try to go full air (muta/corruptor) but it's boooooooooooooooooring to play. The only other viable option is to force a basetrade, preferably with a muta switch.
Relying on "well don't let him get there" has always been a thing. It's the very basic concept of rushing. "Can't win later? Just rush before he gets there" - I thought we'd all agree that while it should be a thing, it shouldn't be the only option.
the main problem here is that there is another option: turtling SH. Which sucks for most ppl (players and viewers)
there are other ways to play, all involving Swarm Hosts, but they also all rely on killing the Protoss fast enough
On February 24 2015 23:40 OtherWorld wrote: Ok avancing from the EU qualifier : Snute, Bunny and MaNa. LIQUID'FIGHTING, I believe.
hahahahaha of course
Honestly apart from sOs, soO and PartinG there aren't many top-tier KR signed up. And those three can take them down.
sOs will be exhausted and playing with lag, I doubt he'll make it. soO and PartinG didn't look good anyway in the previous qualifiers. I think we'll get some foreign representation. Did Serral and Snute register ?
He can play against Korean players on KR ladder and considering that he probably is going to be top-4 seed, he might not face decent foreign players at all.
Rogue, Cure are my favourites probably with sOs/PartinG/soO/MC advancing as well.
Is ForGG signed up? On his own turf it'd be quite an advantage for him.
Not yet at least. But I won't be surprised to see him signing up last moment.
On February 24 2015 23:36 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: [quote]
Please tell me how else dark would be able to fight that army?
I'm so sick of this excuse. How about trying to innovate?
Like we haven't done that? Blink stalker is just so strong, since infestors suck dick, SH is the only realy option.
I hope lurkers solve that issue in LotV.
it's an issue in his dreams, you can totally play w/o sh in zvp except superlategame. and you can play zvp style that'll never reach this stage.
You surprise me, I was quite convinced SH was needed at the highest level to deal with lategame compositions. For instance colossi + templars without SHs : except don't let him do that, how do you manage to deal with it ?
You don't. The only successful top Zergs in ZvP right now are aggro Zergs (aka "don't let him do that") or SH-based players. You can play Roach/Hydra/Vipers but it's a gamble and is not a long-term comp. You can also try to go full air (muta/corruptor) but it's boooooooooooooooooring to play. The only other viable option is to force a basetrade, preferably with a muta switch.
Relying on "well don't let him get there" has always been a thing. It's the very basic concept of rushing. "Can't win later? Just rush before he gets there" - I thought we'd all agree that while it should be a thing, it shouldn't be the only option.
the main problem here is that there is another option: turtling SH. Which sucks for most ppl (players and viewers)
Well yeah but you can't ask for rushes to be the only option, can you?
I like aggro games so i'm fine if the Z is kinda forced to play aggressive but that's my own pov and I perfectly understand that it's not shared. It'd obviously be cool if there is a lategame transition that's effective and allows a Z to kill a P when he's decently ahead in a macro game but the truth is that atm there is nothing close to that, except mass muta which can still be dealt with.
On February 24 2015 23:45 Werwolf wrote: Ok, so random ESL rule buried sOs on KR qualliy :
What you mean?
Also super sad to see sOs go out of the qualifiers.
Everyone expected bo3 last game because semifinals were bo3, celebrated sOs advancing because he was 2-1 up, then it randomly appeared that it's bo5, Dark took 2 last games and qualified, sending Kim Yoo Jin into another qualiier to complete whole day in tournament setting.
On February 24 2015 23:37 royalroadweed wrote: [quote] I'm so sick of this excuse. How about trying to innovate?
Like we haven't done that? Blink stalker is just so strong, since infestors suck dick, SH is the only realy option.
I hope lurkers solve that issue in LotV.
it's an issue in his dreams, you can totally play w/o sh in zvp except superlategame. and you can play zvp style that'll never reach this stage.
You surprise me, I was quite convinced SH was needed at the highest level to deal with lategame compositions. For instance colossi + templars without SHs : except don't let him do that, how do you manage to deal with it ?
You don't. The only successful top Zergs in ZvP right now are aggro Zergs (aka "don't let him do that") or SH-based players. You can play Roach/Hydra/Vipers but it's a gamble and is not a long-term comp. You can also try to go full air (muta/corruptor) but it's boooooooooooooooooring to play. The only other viable option is to force a basetrade, preferably with a muta switch.
Relying on "well don't let him get there" has always been a thing. It's the very basic concept of rushing. "Can't win later? Just rush before he gets there" - I thought we'd all agree that while it should be a thing, it shouldn't be the only option.
the main problem here is that there is another option: turtling SH. Which sucks for most ppl (players and viewers)
Well yeah but you can't ask for rushes to be the only option, can you?
I like aggro games so i'm fine if the Z is kinda forced to play aggressive but that's my own pov and I perfectly understand that it's not shared. It'd obviously be cool if there is a lategame transition that's effective and allows a Z to kill a P when he's decently ahead in a macro game but the truth is that atm there is nothing close to that, except mass muta which can still be dealt with.
The problem with aggressive play, and rushes in particular, is that once your opponent knows you're doing it, it's not working anymore. He's just going to defend and win the fights against you. And since Protoss can negate reinforcement distance and has superior lategame options, winning a game after a failed aggression (in the sense of committing to aggression heavily) is mostly impossible for zergs.
Playing aggressive is only worth it if you can win the fights, and a Protoss has a lot of great mechanics to make sure he wins fights against a same-tech-tier/supply opponent.
What Zergs mostly rely on to win is forcing the opponent to make mistakes(multi pronged attacks etc), but the reality is that if Protoss is on two bases there's little to no room to make mistakes, even if attacked(land forcefields, put stalkers at drops/nydus positions).
EDIT: Please don't think I'm balance whining. From a balance POV it's fine, since Zerg can rely on SH to make up for all of the issues I just mentioned. What I'm arguing for is a case where SH would be non-existent.
^Yup. The only "true" way to beat Protoss as Zerg without SHs is transitional play, as Life does or as Serral showed versus NaNiwa G2. Force the P to produce units that counter what you might attack him with, but then threaten him with another type of unit that doesn't have the same counter, etc. The issue is that it's a really hard style to play, and requires a fuckton of skill.
On February 24 2015 23:45 Werwolf wrote: Ok, so random ESL rule buried sOs on KR qualliy :
What you mean?
Also super sad to see sOs go out of the qualifiers.
Everyone expected bo3 last game because semifinals were bo3, celebrated sOs advancing because he was 2-1 up, then it randomly appeared that it's bo5, Dark took 2 last games and qualified, sending Kim Yoo Jin into another qualiier to complete whole day in tournament setting.
On February 24 2015 23:45 Werwolf wrote: Ok, so random ESL rule buried sOs on KR qualliy :
What you mean?
Also super sad to see sOs go out of the qualifiers.
Everyone expected bo3 last game because semifinals were bo3, celebrated sOs advancing because he was 2-1 up, then it randomly appeared that it's bo5, Dark took 2 last games and qualified, sending Kim Yoo Jin into another qualiier to complete whole day in tournament setting.
On February 24 2015 23:41 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: [quote]
Like we haven't done that? Blink stalker is just so strong, since infestors suck dick, SH is the only realy option.
I hope lurkers solve that issue in LotV.
it's an issue in his dreams, you can totally play w/o sh in zvp except superlategame. and you can play zvp style that'll never reach this stage.
You surprise me, I was quite convinced SH was needed at the highest level to deal with lategame compositions. For instance colossi + templars without SHs : except don't let him do that, how do you manage to deal with it ?
You don't. The only successful top Zergs in ZvP right now are aggro Zergs (aka "don't let him do that") or SH-based players. You can play Roach/Hydra/Vipers but it's a gamble and is not a long-term comp. You can also try to go full air (muta/corruptor) but it's boooooooooooooooooring to play. The only other viable option is to force a basetrade, preferably with a muta switch.
Relying on "well don't let him get there" has always been a thing. It's the very basic concept of rushing. "Can't win later? Just rush before he gets there" - I thought we'd all agree that while it should be a thing, it shouldn't be the only option.
the main problem here is that there is another option: turtling SH. Which sucks for most ppl (players and viewers)
Well yeah but you can't ask for rushes to be the only option, can you?
I like aggro games so i'm fine if the Z is kinda forced to play aggressive but that's my own pov and I perfectly understand that it's not shared. It'd obviously be cool if there is a lategame transition that's effective and allows a Z to kill a P when he's decently ahead in a macro game but the truth is that atm there is nothing close to that, except mass muta which can still be dealt with.
The problem with aggressive play, and rushes in particular, is that once your opponent knows you're doing it, it's not working anymore. He's just going to defend and win the fights against you. And since Protoss can negate reinforcement distance and has superior lategame options, winning a game after a failed aggression (in the sense of committing to aggression heavily) is mostly impossible for zergs.
Playing aggressive is only worth it if you can win the fights, and a Protoss has a lot of great mechanics to make sure he wins fights against a same-tech-tier/supply opponent.
What Zergs mostly rely on to win is forcing the opponent to make mistakes(multi pronged attacks etc), but the reality is that if Protoss is on two bases there's little to no room to make mistakes, even if attacked(land forcefields, put stalkers at drops/nydus positions).
EDIT: Please don't think I'm balance whining. From a balance POV it's fine, since Zerg can rely on SH to make up for all of the issues I just mentioned. What I'm arguing for is a case where SH would be non-existent.
You're definitely not balance whining don't worry.
What i'm talking about is the style popularized by Solar/SoO that isn't all inish, you get 3bases, 60ish drones and one evo upgrading (I love the +1range/+1melee style from Solar) so it's a stage that you reach once the P takes a 3rd. The main offender in PvZ imo is the +2/blink/sentries style with an early third, there is no 2b Protoss play that looks ultra imba nowadays.
So you want to attack a P on 3 bases and except on Deadwing I think you can do real work in the current map pool.
I'm not advocating the mass ling against a 3rd style Life love to use but something a bit more solid that would ideally transition into something les gimmicky than mass muta but that's not really possible nowadays and that's sad.
On February 24 2015 23:45 Werwolf wrote: Ok, so random ESL rule buried sOs on KR qualliy :
What you mean?
Also super sad to see sOs go out of the qualifiers.
Everyone expected bo3 last game because semifinals were bo3, celebrated sOs advancing because he was 2-1 up, then it randomly appeared that it's bo5, Dark took 2 last games and qualified, sending Kim Yoo Jin into another qualiier to complete whole day in tournament setting.
semifinals were meant to be bo5
Bo5 semis wouldn't even change those results, they were such stomps
EPT
