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[IEM] World Championship Qualifiers - Page 68

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Yhamm
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
France7248 Posts
February 24 2015 15:16 GMT
#1341
On February 25 2015 00:08 OtherWorld wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2015 00:08 Yhamm wrote:
On February 25 2015 00:00 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On February 24 2015 23:58 Darkdwarf wrote:
On February 24 2015 23:45 Werwolf wrote:
Ok, so random ESL rule buried sOs on KR qualliy :


What you mean?

Also super sad to see sOs go out of the qualifiers.


Everyone expected bo3 last game because semifinals were bo3, celebrated sOs advancing because he was 2-1 up, then it randomly appeared that it's bo5, Dark took 2 last games and qualified, sending Kim Yoo Jin into another qualiier to complete whole day in tournament setting.

semifinals were meant to be bo5

From LP : "all matches are Bo3"...

yeah, you don't really have to tell me what is on LP...
I asked an admin, and semifinals were meant to be bo5, same way all qualifying matchs in NA qual were bo5 and the 3rd place match was too in KR/TW qual
LiquipediaWe will have only each other at the last
KeksX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Germany3634 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-24 15:19:48
February 24 2015 15:17 GMT
#1342
On February 25 2015 00:09 sAsImre wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2015 00:01 KeksX wrote:
On February 24 2015 23:58 sAsImre wrote:
On February 24 2015 23:53 OtherWorld wrote:
On February 24 2015 23:52 sAsImre wrote:
On February 24 2015 23:51 KeksX wrote:
On February 24 2015 23:46 OtherWorld wrote:
On February 24 2015 23:44 [PkF] Wire wrote:
On February 24 2015 23:43 sAsImre wrote:
On February 24 2015 23:41 [PkF] Wire wrote:
[quote]
I hope lurkers solve that issue in LotV.


it's an issue in his dreams, you can totally play w/o sh in zvp except superlategame. and you can play zvp style that'll never reach this stage.

You surprise me, I was quite convinced SH was needed at the highest level to deal with lategame compositions. For instance colossi + templars without SHs : except don't let him do that, how do you manage to deal with it ?

You don't. The only successful top Zergs in ZvP right now are aggro Zergs (aka "don't let him do that") or SH-based players. You can play Roach/Hydra/Vipers but it's a gamble and is not a long-term comp. You can also try to go full air (muta/corruptor) but it's boooooooooooooooooring to play. The only other viable option is to force a basetrade, preferably with a muta switch.



Relying on "well don't let him get there" has always been a thing. It's the very basic concept of rushing. "Can't win later? Just rush before he gets there" - I thought we'd all agree that while it should be a thing, it shouldn't be the only option.


the main problem here is that there is another option: turtling SH. Which sucks for most ppl (players and viewers)

Well yeah but you can't ask for rushes to be the only option, can you?


I like aggro games so i'm fine if the Z is kinda forced to play aggressive but that's my own pov and I perfectly understand that it's not shared. It'd obviously be cool if there is a lategame transition that's effective and allows a Z to kill a P when he's decently ahead in a macro game but the truth is that atm there is nothing close to that, except mass muta which can still be dealt with.


The problem with aggressive play, and rushes in particular, is that once your opponent knows you're doing it, it's not working anymore. He's just going to defend and win the fights against you. And since Protoss can negate reinforcement distance and has superior lategame options, winning a game after a failed aggression (in the sense of committing to aggression heavily) is mostly impossible for zergs.

Playing aggressive is only worth it if you can win the fights, and a Protoss has a lot of great mechanics to make sure he wins fights against a same-tech-tier/supply opponent.

What Zergs mostly rely on to win is forcing the opponent to make mistakes(multi pronged attacks etc), but the reality is that if Protoss is on two bases there's little to no room to make mistakes, even if attacked(land forcefields, put stalkers at drops/nydus positions).


EDIT: Please don't think I'm balance whining. From a balance POV it's fine, since Zerg can rely on SH to make up for all of the issues I just mentioned. What I'm arguing for is a case where SH would be non-existent.



You're definitely not balance whining don't worry.

What i'm talking about is the style popularized by Solar/SoO that isn't all inish, you get 3bases, 60ish drones and one evo upgrading (I love the +1range/+1melee style from Solar) so it's a stage that you reach once the P takes a 3rd. The main offender in PvZ imo is the +2/blink/sentries style with an early third, there is no 2b Protoss play that looks ultra imba nowadays.

So you want to attack a P on 3 bases and except on Deadwing I think you can do real work in the current map pool.

I'm not advocating the mass ling against a 3rd style Life love to use but something a bit more solid that would ideally transition into something les gimmicky than mass muta but that's not really possible nowadays and that's sad.



Well it's getting pretty theoretical now, but anyway: I love the style you talked about, but I think it suffers from the same problems we mentioned earlier. What if he takes a third even after losing some units? If you take a fourth then, you're vulnerable.


I'm gonna make myself some enemies now but I think IdrA said it best. There's no "safe play" for zerg. What I mean is that you can't just take Solars style and transition out of it if it's not working out - if it's not working out you're pretty dead.

SH kinda changed that, you can actually fail an attack with SH, but as long as you don't lose the SH you're still fine.
(If you lose an attack as Protoss, you just warp the hell out of it. Blink stalkers can blink out, forcefields can stop an attack as well. Terrans have similar stuff with medivacs and tanklines that can force an opponent to retreat, and I don't think I have to mention the Raven do I?)

Obligatory mention of this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/478011-legacy-of-the-void-multiplayer-development-update where we talked about things like these. I don't want to derail this tournament thread too much even though it's downtime atm
GumBa
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United Kingdom31935 Posts
February 24 2015 15:17 GMT
#1343
On February 24 2015 23:46 Ej_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2015 23:46 GumBa wrote:
So who has qualified from asia? I had to go out -.-

(T)INnoVation, (P)Patience, (Z)Dark

Inno and Dark? SIIICK
To all the haters: you deserve to witness many, many more Serral victories, worthy of the godlike player he is.
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
February 24 2015 15:19 GMT
#1344
On February 25 2015 00:16 Yhamm wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2015 00:08 OtherWorld wrote:
On February 25 2015 00:08 Yhamm wrote:
On February 25 2015 00:00 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On February 24 2015 23:58 Darkdwarf wrote:
On February 24 2015 23:45 Werwolf wrote:
Ok, so random ESL rule buried sOs on KR qualliy :


What you mean?

Also super sad to see sOs go out of the qualifiers.


Everyone expected bo3 last game because semifinals were bo3, celebrated sOs advancing because he was 2-1 up, then it randomly appeared that it's bo5, Dark took 2 last games and qualified, sending Kim Yoo Jin into another qualiier to complete whole day in tournament setting.

semifinals were meant to be bo5

From LP : "all matches are Bo3"...

yeah, you don't really have to tell me what is on LP...
I asked an admin, and semifinals were meant to be bo5, same way all qualifying matchs in NA qual were bo5 and the 3rd place match was too in KR/TW qual

Hmm it's a bit strange that they didn't play the semis as Bo5 then. (I'd even say that it would be reclamation-worthy, but well)
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18761 Posts
February 24 2015 15:20 GMT
#1345
Normally I would be happy that sOs didn't make it but he finished 4th so he has a spot at IEM 100%
GumBa
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
United Kingdom31935 Posts
February 24 2015 15:20 GMT
#1346
Also let's all hope Inno doesnt cancel
To all the haters: you deserve to witness many, many more Serral victories, worthy of the godlike player he is.
Yhamm
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
France7248 Posts
February 24 2015 15:20 GMT
#1347
On February 25 2015 00:19 OtherWorld wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2015 00:16 Yhamm wrote:
On February 25 2015 00:08 OtherWorld wrote:
On February 25 2015 00:08 Yhamm wrote:
On February 25 2015 00:00 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
On February 24 2015 23:58 Darkdwarf wrote:
On February 24 2015 23:45 Werwolf wrote:
Ok, so random ESL rule buried sOs on KR qualliy :


What you mean?

Also super sad to see sOs go out of the qualifiers.


Everyone expected bo3 last game because semifinals were bo3, celebrated sOs advancing because he was 2-1 up, then it randomly appeared that it's bo5, Dark took 2 last games and qualified, sending Kim Yoo Jin into another qualiier to complete whole day in tournament setting.

semifinals were meant to be bo5

From LP : "all matches are Bo3"...

yeah, you don't really have to tell me what is on LP...
I asked an admin, and semifinals were meant to be bo5, same way all qualifying matchs in NA qual were bo5 and the 3rd place match was too in KR/TW qual

Hmm it's a bit strange that they didn't play the semis as Bo5 then. (I'd even say that it would be reclamation-worthy, but well)

Koreans are known to rush their games and never ask admins anything, so it's not really surprising
LiquipediaWe will have only each other at the last
Alchemik
Profile Joined March 2014
Poland7124 Posts
February 24 2015 15:23 GMT
#1348

rip
SmoKim
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark10305 Posts
February 24 2015 15:26 GMT
#1349
^ hahaha, ohhh TargA <3
"LOL I have 202 supply right now (3 minutes later)..."LOL NOW I HAVE 220 SUPPLY SUP?!?!?" - Mondragon
Irrational_Animal
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1059 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-24 15:30:25
February 24 2015 15:29 GMT
#1350
How come that there are no Liquid guys in the qualifier?
Darkdwarf
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Sweden960 Posts
February 24 2015 15:30 GMT
#1351
On February 25 2015 00:20 sharkie wrote:
Normally I would be happy that sOs didn't make it but he finished 4th so he has a spot at IEM 100%


He didn't qualify. Top3 qualified.
Teams: IM, Jin Air, Invictus || Players: Maru, GuMiho, INnoVation, Ryung, sOs, Squirtle, NaNiwa, Has, Zoun, Life, Rogue, Dark
HolydaKing
Profile Joined February 2010
21254 Posts
February 24 2015 15:32 GMT
#1352
Hope that Fantasy qualifies, but I really doubt it.
pretender58
Profile Joined August 2013
Germany713 Posts
February 24 2015 15:34 GMT
#1353
On February 25 2015 00:29 Irrational_Animal wrote:
How come that there are no Liquid guys in the qualifier?

players that already checked in (including Snute, Bunny,TLO and mana)
sharkie
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Austria18761 Posts
February 24 2015 15:35 GMT
#1354
On February 25 2015 00:30 Darkdwarf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2015 00:20 sharkie wrote:
Normally I would be happy that sOs didn't make it but he finished 4th so he has a spot at IEM 100%


He didn't qualify. Top3 qualified.


Innovation "qualified", so his spot will go to sOs
oo_Wonderful_oo
Profile Blog Joined December 2013
The land of freedom23126 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-24 15:36:27
February 24 2015 15:35 GMT
#1355
On February 25 2015 00:29 Irrational_Animal wrote:
How come that there are no Liquid guys in the qualifier?


Snute, Bunny, TLO and Mana are playing.

On February 25 2015 00:35 sharkie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2015 00:30 Darkdwarf wrote:
On February 25 2015 00:20 sharkie wrote:
Normally I would be happy that sOs didn't make it but he finished 4th so he has a spot at IEM 100%


He didn't qualify. Top3 qualified.


Innovation "qualified", so his spot will go to sOs


Rofl.
Pretty sure that Bogus will go this time.
LiquidLegends StaffFPL 25 #1 | tfw I cast games on-air | back-to-back Liquibet winner
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
February 24 2015 15:36 GMT
#1356
On February 25 2015 00:35 sharkie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2015 00:30 Darkdwarf wrote:
On February 25 2015 00:20 sharkie wrote:
Normally I would be happy that sOs didn't make it but he finished 4th so he has a spot at IEM 100%


He didn't qualify. Top3 qualified.


Innovation "qualified", so his spot will go to sOs

I think GSL/NSSL will schedule around IEM.
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
Irrational_Animal
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany1059 Posts
February 24 2015 15:36 GMT
#1357
On February 25 2015 00:34 pretender58 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2015 00:29 Irrational_Animal wrote:
How come that there are no Liquid guys in the qualifier?

players that already checked in (including Snute, Bunny,TLO and mana)


my fault, thx for correcting me
AWalker9
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
United Kingdom7229 Posts
February 24 2015 15:42 GMT
#1358
sOs and soO pls qualify
soOjwa has returned to smite all that stand in his way
Tesarul
Profile Joined February 2014
Belgium79 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-24 15:46:05
February 24 2015 15:45 GMT
#1359
Nevermind
Inflicted
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Australia18228 Posts
February 24 2015 15:55 GMT
#1360
On February 25 2015 00:42 AWalker9 wrote:
sOs and soO pls qualify


sOs hasn't checked in yet
Liquipedia"Expert"
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