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On August 18 2014 10:30 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 10:26 D-light wrote:On August 18 2014 08:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On August 18 2014 08:51 HoMM wrote:
I'm a huge Scarlett fan, but it looks like Bunny really needs the support so my vote goes for him right now! if welmu gets in over bunny it will be a goddamn tragedy. I guess some people like the story of an university student fighting an illness and consistently doing well in the WCS for a good while. Well, hopefully both will get in to the tournament eventually. I did not know he had an illness... now I kind of feel bad.
It's related to his stomach. (Crohn's disease?) I can't even count how many events he has had to cancel his participation due it. Lately Homestory cup and several DH. Also he couldnt practice for 1 week just before 2013 season2 or 3 season finals.
related:
Also, if you use or like Aligulac you must vote Welmu  , that way you support sponsors 
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Voted for  Welmu, naturally. 
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Russian Federation145 Posts
No Happy in Poll wtf man??
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Major is def a top foreign player.
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SEn not being on the top with the votes is funny, and Nerchio placed so high instead of Major and SEn is hilarious.
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On August 18 2014 19:37 Liquid`Drone wrote:
honestly I think with the randomness of a draw, unless you make it like a best of 5 round robin featuring the top 30 players (as determined by what anyway?), which would be an absurd amount of games, you probably get more precise results with this type of poll.
I mean, so far top 3 is scarlett snute bunny, and it seems likely that all these get a spot. Scarlett and Snute have been the best two foreigners for some time, and bunny has arguably the most impressive recent performance out of anyone. And then the 4th spot is like, welmu major and nerchio, all players who are at least pretty close to the 4th spot, and then there's a qualifier where sen or vortix or whomever feels like they are unjustly left out can prove their worth and get a spot. (assuming you think that a qualifier would yield correct results in the first place, then certainly any player you think deserves to make it will end up qualifying. )
Having open qualifiers is a good way of making unknown talent get some spotlight. But it is not a good way of ensuring that the best players end up playing.
So because the voted players coincide with your personal opinion that means that are more or less right? Sorry, but the idea that a poll can provide something even remotely related to "precise results", or "more precise" than something objective like real play is nonsense.
He could very much forget about the poll and pick the four foreigners with more followers in twitter and save us the show.
Besides, there are lot of objective metrics to choose the players, even if arbitrary, like aligulac, wcs points, top4, top8 finishes, whatever. But a poll? C'mon.
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On August 18 2014 20:07 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 10:30 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On August 18 2014 10:26 D-light wrote:On August 18 2014 08:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On August 18 2014 08:51 HoMM wrote:
I'm a huge Scarlett fan, but it looks like Bunny really needs the support so my vote goes for him right now! if welmu gets in over bunny it will be a goddamn tragedy. I guess some people like the story of an university student fighting an illness and consistently doing well in the WCS for a good while. Well, hopefully both will get in to the tournament eventually. I did not know he had an illness... now I kind of feel bad. It's related to his stomach. (Crohn's disease?) I can't even count how many events he has had to cancel his participation due it. Lately Homestory cup and several DH. Also he couldnt practice for 1 week just before 2013 season2 or 3 season finals. related: https://twitter.com/NrSWelmu/status/377768351579140096Also, if you use or like Aligulac you must vote Welmu , that way you support sponsors https://twitter.com/Sc2Aligulac/status/501119264448073728
Well I feel like a dick now for not voting for him 
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voted  Nerchio as I imagine there would be no way for Sen to get in
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Ya, Ourk should get a spot in this! He's top 5 foreigners right now :p
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Norway28929 Posts
On August 18 2014 22:14 lotteryman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 19:37 Liquid`Drone wrote:
honestly I think with the randomness of a draw, unless you make it like a best of 5 round robin featuring the top 30 players (as determined by what anyway?), which would be an absurd amount of games, you probably get more precise results with this type of poll.
I mean, so far top 3 is scarlett snute bunny, and it seems likely that all these get a spot. Scarlett and Snute have been the best two foreigners for some time, and bunny has arguably the most impressive recent performance out of anyone. And then the 4th spot is like, welmu major and nerchio, all players who are at least pretty close to the 4th spot, and then there's a qualifier where sen or vortix or whomever feels like they are unjustly left out can prove their worth and get a spot. (assuming you think that a qualifier would yield correct results in the first place, then certainly any player you think deserves to make it will end up qualifying. )
Having open qualifiers is a good way of making unknown talent get some spotlight. But it is not a good way of ensuring that the best players end up playing. So because the voted players coincide with your personal opinion that means that are more or less right? Sorry, but the idea that a poll can provide something even remotely related to "precise results", or "more precise" than something objective like real play is nonsense. He could very much forget about the poll and pick the four foreigners with more followers in twitter and save us the show. Besides, there are lot of objective metrics to choose the players, even if arbitrary, like aligulac, wcs points, top4, top8 finishes, whatever. But a poll? C'mon.
in any sport asking fans who the best players are yields you very accurate results.. this is because supporters by large actually follow the sport and pay close attention to who is best. And okay, let's compare the current poll to say, a combined aligulac and wcs points.. hell,we can include TLPD as well.
I said that basically the poll reflects reality in the sense that snute scarlett and bunny all seem fairly certain, and they're also (imo) the three players with the best results "lately". And well, aligulac has these three as the highest non-koreans. (Scarlett ahead of bunny ahead of snute, vortix 4th)
WCS points gives you snute ahead of bunny ahead of sen ahead of scarlett. (vortix 5th, welmu 6th)
TLPD gives you scarlett ahead of bunny, then major vortix heromarine jim starbuck before snute comes in 8th place.
Basically, the poll results seem fairly well aligned with reality. Top 3 in the poll would also be top 3 if going by a combined aligulac+wcs points+TLPD ranking, maybe with bunny ahead of snute but that hardly matters. the 4th place would be contentious, I guess maybe vortix "deserves" it based on the aforementioned criteria and he's trailing a little (meaning that he's 7th) in the poll, but major and welmu are both up there. But this is not to argue that this type of poll gives a perfect result. I am just arguing that if you want the qualifier to be likely to do a better job accurately representing reality, then you need a shitload of games. You can't just do like, two 256 player tournaments, have top 3 from both going on to the finals and expect something better than this - randomness of brackets would make it probable that someone out of snute, scarlett, bunny, or whomever you actually think is deserving of this would be knocked out before reaching a qualifier spot. Going by an invite+qualifier system is much more likely to get the actual best players than just having a qualifier, unless you want to make the qualifier exceptionally long lasting and intricate - which players might not be willing to take part of.
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On August 19 2014 01:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 22:14 lotteryman wrote:On August 18 2014 19:37 Liquid`Drone wrote:
honestly I think with the randomness of a draw, unless you make it like a best of 5 round robin featuring the top 30 players (as determined by what anyway?), which would be an absurd amount of games, you probably get more precise results with this type of poll.
I mean, so far top 3 is scarlett snute bunny, and it seems likely that all these get a spot. Scarlett and Snute have been the best two foreigners for some time, and bunny has arguably the most impressive recent performance out of anyone. And then the 4th spot is like, welmu major and nerchio, all players who are at least pretty close to the 4th spot, and then there's a qualifier where sen or vortix or whomever feels like they are unjustly left out can prove their worth and get a spot. (assuming you think that a qualifier would yield correct results in the first place, then certainly any player you think deserves to make it will end up qualifying. )
Having open qualifiers is a good way of making unknown talent get some spotlight. But it is not a good way of ensuring that the best players end up playing. So because the voted players coincide with your personal opinion that means that are more or less right? Sorry, but the idea that a poll can provide something even remotely related to "precise results", or "more precise" than something objective like real play is nonsense. He could very much forget about the poll and pick the four foreigners with more followers in twitter and save us the show. Besides, there are lot of objective metrics to choose the players, even if arbitrary, like aligulac, wcs points, top4, top8 finishes, whatever. But a poll? C'mon. in any sport asking fans who the best players are yields you very accurate results.. this is because supporters by large actually follow the sport and pay close attention to who is best. And okay, let's compare the current poll to say, a combined aligulac and wcs points.. hell,we can include TLPD as well. I said that basically the poll reflects reality in the sense that snute scarlett and bunny all seem fairly certain, and they're also (imo) the three players with the best results "lately". And well, aligulac has these three as the highest non-koreans. (Scarlett ahead of bunny ahead of snute, vortix 4th) WCS points gives you snute ahead of bunny ahead of sen ahead of scarlett. (vortix 5th, welmu 6th) TLPD gives you scarlett ahead of bunny, then major vortix heromarine jim starbuck before snute comes in 8th place. Basically, the poll results seem fairly well aligned with reality. Top 3 in the poll would also be top 3 if going by a combined aligulac+wcs points+TLPD ranking, maybe with bunny ahead of snute but that hardly matters. the 4th place would be contentious, I guess maybe vortix "deserves" it based on the aforementioned criteria and he's trailing a little (meaning that he's 7th) in the poll, but major and welmu are both up there. But this is not to argue that this type of poll gives a perfect result. I am just arguing that if you want the qualifier to be likely to do a better job accurately representing reality, then you need a shitload of games. You can't just do like, two 256 player tournaments, have top 3 from both going on to the finals and expect something better than this - randomness of brackets would make it probable that someone out of snute, scarlett, bunny, or whomever you actually think is deserving of this would be knocked out before reaching a qualifier spot. Going by an invite+qualifier system is much more likely to get the actual best players than just having a qualifier, unless you want to make the qualifier exceptionally long lasting and intricate - which players might not be willing to take part of.
In any sport except Starcraft, otherwise the fan favourites would be mainly Koreans.
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Norway28929 Posts
but this is only about players outside Korea, how are Koreans relevant to this?
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On August 19 2014 01:34 Liquid`Drone wrote:
but this is only about players outside Korea, how are Koreans relevant to this?
They're not, not in this context at least. But it is worth noting that there is a huge gulf between the best Koreans and the most popular ones. A quick survey of the line up of any invite tournament will confirm this.
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Norway28929 Posts
I agree. I think this type of poll would be much less likely to yield accurate results regarding Korean players. But people are criticizing this precise tournament when there's nothing that indicates that the poll results are inaccurate or that a qualifier tournament would make anything better.
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Bunny for Terran and Foreign hope.
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On August 19 2014 01:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 22:14 lotteryman wrote:On August 18 2014 19:37 Liquid`Drone wrote:
honestly I think with the randomness of a draw, unless you make it like a best of 5 round robin featuring the top 30 players (as determined by what anyway?), which would be an absurd amount of games, you probably get more precise results with this type of poll.
I mean, so far top 3 is scarlett snute bunny, and it seems likely that all these get a spot. Scarlett and Snute have been the best two foreigners for some time, and bunny has arguably the most impressive recent performance out of anyone. And then the 4th spot is like, welmu major and nerchio, all players who are at least pretty close to the 4th spot, and then there's a qualifier where sen or vortix or whomever feels like they are unjustly left out can prove their worth and get a spot. (assuming you think that a qualifier would yield correct results in the first place, then certainly any player you think deserves to make it will end up qualifying. )
Having open qualifiers is a good way of making unknown talent get some spotlight. But it is not a good way of ensuring that the best players end up playing. So because the voted players coincide with your personal opinion that means that are more or less right? Sorry, but the idea that a poll can provide something even remotely related to "precise results", or "more precise" than something objective like real play is nonsense. He could very much forget about the poll and pick the four foreigners with more followers in twitter and save us the show. Besides, there are lot of objective metrics to choose the players, even if arbitrary, like aligulac, wcs points, top4, top8 finishes, whatever. But a poll? C'mon. in any sport asking fans who the best players are yields you very accurate results.. this is because supporters by large actually follow the sport and pay close attention to who is best. And okay, let's compare the current poll to say, a combined aligulac and wcs points.. hell,we can include TLPD as well. I said that basically the poll reflects reality in the sense that snute scarlett and bunny all seem fairly certain, and they're also (imo) the three players with the best results "lately". And well, aligulac has these three as the highest non-koreans. (Scarlett ahead of bunny ahead of snute, vortix 4th) WCS points gives you snute ahead of bunny ahead of sen ahead of scarlett. (vortix 5th, welmu 6th) TLPD gives you scarlett ahead of bunny, then major vortix heromarine jim starbuck before snute comes in 8th place. Basically, the poll results seem fairly well aligned with reality. Top 3 in the poll would also be top 3 if going by a combined aligulac+wcs points+TLPD ranking, maybe with bunny ahead of snute but that hardly matters. the 4th place would be contentious, I guess maybe vortix "deserves" it based on the aforementioned criteria and he's trailing a little (meaning that he's 7th) in the poll, but major and welmu are both up there. But this is not to argue that this type of poll gives a perfect result. I am just arguing that if you want the qualifier to be likely to do a better job accurately representing reality, then you need a shitload of games. You can't just do like, two 256 player tournaments, have top 3 from both going on to the finals and expect something better than this - randomness of brackets would make it probable that someone out of snute, scarlett, bunny, or whomever you actually think is deserving of this would be knocked out before reaching a qualifier spot. Going by an invite+qualifier system is much more likely to get the actual best players than just having a qualifier, unless you want to make the qualifier exceptionally long lasting and intricate - which players might not be willing to take part of.
It gives a tendency, but I don't think, you can get an exact result based on it. Peoples opinions are easily manipulated, you could take Spanishiwa as an example; Husky hyped him quite high in 2010/2011 and there were actually quite a few people, who thought, he might be one of the best foreigners - which was/is obviously false.
Public opinion has other factors than just skill, the amout of games comes into it (An example is Vortix, who plays less than other contenders here and is, despite being about equally as skilled, behind them), the opinion of popular figures in the scene is another (Spanishiwa is one example, Illusion could be another)
Looking at a 2014 earnings ranking (which ofc. also has it's flaws, but is raw data based on results), Snute is alone at the top with 38k, followed by Sen(who is the only one, winning a premier)(29k), Vortix(26k) and Bunny(23k). After that there is a gap between those 4 and the followers (led by Jim(17k) and Scarlett(16k)), so there is at least some data, that would suggest those 4, since they have played the best, when it really mattered.
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EPT
