[WCS EU] Ro4 and Finals Premier Season 2 2014 - Page 71

On July 07 2014 08:13 DMXD wrote:
congras to Stardust, didn't watch the final but I was hoping for him to pull through GG!

On July 07 2014 08:12 Deculo wrote:


All that you're saying is that someone should be banned because you don't like what they say or how they act. None of it is offensive to the game itself. If you don't agree with what someone does on stream, don't watch it.

Also while you're at it, stop trying to equate skill-level to relevance or popularity. People get compared for their similar actions, not because of the accomplishment's they've had otherwise. A player does not need to be a pro or GM to be compared to an Idra balance whine. Look at the NFL a couple years back with all the hype around Tim Tebow. on paper he was a terrible choice for a QB. He wasn't at a pro level and didn't really succeed, but there was tremendous hype around him. For someone that was such a mediocre player, he was receiving top-tier profile and coverage which attracted lots of people to tune in and watch him play (whether to support him or laugh at his failures). The general example same could be said here.

The goal should be to get as many people interested in the game as possible. Avilo doesn't have to be a top-tier pro korean slayer to provide interest and entertainment to sc2 as an e-sport. How many people in the world are pro or on GM ladder? Everyone below that seems to be deemed as "scrub" or not on a high enough level to talk about "balance", where in fact the majority of people who make up the viewership for streams are going to be from bronze-diamond levels. This community and viewerbase would be nothing without those who contribute and watch or play regularly, and I'm sure many of those low level players can identify on some level with the balance-whine that comes from Avilo, or any other personality from whatever race they play as well.

My point being, it doesn't take player skill to have some of the admittedly bad traits others have. And just because you may be of higher skill/level than other players or feel that some things aren't an issue for you, it doesn't mean it's not an issue for a majority of the playerbase as a whole.

On July 07 2014 08:23 SatedSC2 wrote:

No one is saying that he should be banned, we're saying that TL shouldn't feature his stream. What he does on his stream goes against a lot of the rules that TL apply to users of the forums, and he does these things on such a constant basis that I think TL should set an example by taking away his featured status. It might cause him to be less of a cancerous member of the community.

On July 07 2014 08:20 Lyyna wrote:
This would be relevant if he was just "borderline kinda a bit not okay", and if i talked about his skill. None of these are true.

He's way more than borderline, and his skill level is irrelevant and never had a place in this conversation - outside of the fact he isn't half as good as he thinks he is. His attitude is the problem.

On July 07 2014 07:57 Lyyna wrote:
I haven't said he should be banned. Even though i think he shouldn't be featured.
Idra was punished in the end - and at least, for some time, he was the best foreigner in the world. He had something to back it up, even if it doesn't really justify his terrible attitude, he was still the fucking best at what he did, and he didn't just whine.

He's way more than borderline, and his skill level is irrelevant and never had a place in this conversation - outside of the fact he isn't half as good as he thinks he is. His attitude is the problem.
And the fact that people can identify with him is the problem - because he uses a really common feeling and perception to spread his hate-filled message, and to get fame, while trying as hard as possible to belittle everyone's else in the field of mech, and promoting an agressive, insult/rage-filled attitude, where every loss is due to balance or cheating. He understood that, once you're known for any reason, the best way to stay known isn't talent, skill, practice, good behaviour.. it is controversy in all its forms.

Comparing him to TheDWF or Idra, even if they have their bad sides, is an insult to them, because Avilo has none of the thing that allowed them to be what they've been

On July 07 2014 08:46 RaiKageRyu wrote:
God damn it, I came to the end of this thread to check out how the finals hype went, and all I see is stuff about who's more toxic between TB and Avilo.

On July 07 2014 08:55 Deculo wrote:


Here, I highlighted exactly where you try to debunk the comparison of Idras balance-whine to Avilo Because Idra has more accomplishments and was better at the game.



The rest of your post seems to be just your own personal dislike towards this kid for whatever reasons that happened between you two and only further supports what I've said that people want to remove him simply because they don't like him for personal reasons.

And also the fact that you want to point out my two posts in no way discredits or contests anything I've said from being unbiased and true. I've been a long time lurker/reader of forums and have watched sc2 for years. A friend of mine posted me this thread and after I read the comments made by Totalbiscuit I was pretty disgusted. So much so that I actually created an account here just to post about it. It's infuriating. No matter how much a whiny kid wants to call maphacks and cry about balance, it doesn't warrant a level of personal attack and mockery that an established and respected member of the community like TB has given him. It is far beneath the acceptable level of attitude that someone with his status should be acting with.

Every time I have seen a TB controversy or dispute with fans that he's routinely belittled and made rude comments towards, i maintained a level of empathy towards him, knowing that his job is hard. It's stressful and none of us who aren't in his position could really understand the pressure of it all. But its quite a hypocracy that someone like TB who has expressed all of the difficulties revolving around being in the spotlight. About how bad he is treated by people on the internet, and how much it bothers him. That this SAME person will go to make personal comments on another personality. Mocking his lisp, making fun of his production and content. I am disgusted. THIS is the cancer of the sc2 community, not some whiny kid, but a full fledged adult and manager of a team being a complete hypocrite and picking on a kid in the community. I have lost any shred of respect that i had for TB after this and it is unacceptable for someone to make those kinds of comments.

We're talking about removing Avilo from featured because of his attitude. How can Avilo's attitude be unacceptable because he balance whines and calls maphacks, yet TB can take a deep personal jab about something Avilo cant even change about himself(his voice) and that is acceptable? Where is the punishment for that? Is that the community you want? That anyone who establishes themselves can bash on whoever they like because they don't agree with their opinion? TB might as well be pushing over cripples who are in a wheel chair. If this is the acceptable level of community interaction that you want to be the standard then you shouldn't even be bothered by Avilo's actions, and at the same time I'd rather not even be a part of it after this if these actions from TB are deemed acceptable.

On July 07 2014 09:11 Foreverkul wrote:
Did I miss any good games? I see that it ended in a predictable PvP, and super one sided.

On July 07 2014 09:20 TotalBiscuit wrote:


Whoop whoop, new Avilo fanboi false equivalency account showdown!

You heard it here first folks, saying someone has a lisp and a bad mic is literally the same severity as spending years of your life balance-whining and accusing other players over ghost and maphacking, all while getting paid ad revenue and subscriptions for it. Yep, definitely the same. Also taking a jab at his voice is the same as pushing over cripples in a wheelchair.

The cognitive dissonance is both palpable and I suppose necessary to unironically enjoy Avilos stream. You would have to wrap yourself up in some pretty serious mental knots to justify Avilos behavior in your mind, so I guess it's not too big a leap to say that I'm literally Hitler for criticizing Avilos behavior, as well as completely ignore the main point of the post in the first place, which is that Avilo is a toxic, whiny influence on the community.

But yeah, keep on believing that I am the REAL CANCER of the community. Also hypocrisy doesn't have an A in it.

On July 07 2014 09:26 avilo wrote:
My stream is my stream TB. If you don't like it, don't watch. You should not be trying to push around your weight to push out other SC2 content producers because of your own personal dislike for them or w/e else.

SC2 streamers, personalities, community streamers should be wishing each other well and more viewers bro.

As for being toxic, "toxic" is a really overused buzzword people use to try to start angry mobs with pitch forks. The true toxicity in the community is that there are issues with the game we all love that are not being addressed and tended to by the developers in a timely manner.

Community personalities, streamers, whoever have a responsibility to speak up about such things. It's been 1+ yr of there being pretty blatant balance problems with SC2, which you also admit in one of your posts in this thread. You with your pull should be talking to blizzard and getting the ball rolling with them making patches and changing the game for the better.

Also a bit hypocritical of you in the position you're in where you know personally how debilitating it is to receive a ton of hate regardless of the content you produce. Yet you don't mind attempting to set the angry mob loose yourself onto others...don't do that @_@

We all want SC2 numbers to go up and the game to get more viewers, we are on the same team br0. Anyways, thought i'd comment since people were linking me to this thread! This thread should be about the PvP finals between Stardust/San, not me or you.

On July 07 2014 09:26 avilo wrote:
My stream is my stream TB. If you don't like it, don't watch. You should not be trying to push around your weight to push out other SC2 content producers because of your own personal dislike for them or w/e else.

SC2 streamers, personalities, community streamers should be wishing each other well and more viewers bro.

As for being toxic, "toxic" is a really overused buzzword people use to try to start angry mobs with pitch forks. The true toxicity in the community is that there are issues with the game we all love that are not being addressed and tended to by the developers in a timely manner.

Community personalities, streamers, whoever have a responsibility to speak up about such things. It's been 1+ yr of there being pretty blatant balance problems with SC2, which you also admit in one of your posts in this thread. You with your pull should be talking to blizzard and getting the ball rolling with them making patches and changing the game for the better.

Also a bit hypocritical of you in the position you're in where you know personally how debilitating it is to receive a ton of hate regardless of the content you produce. Yet you don't mind attempting to set the angry mob loose yourself onto others...don't do that @_@

We all want SC2 numbers to go up and the game to get more viewers, we are on the same team br0. Anyways, thought i'd comment since people were linking me to this thread! This thread should be about the PvP finals between Stardust/San, not me or you.

On July 07 2014 06:30 TotalBiscuit wrote:


Pretty sure nobody believed the game was balanced at the end of WoL. Hell I quit casting for several months after IPL5 because the game CLEARLY wasn't balanced, as in, BL/Infestor was literally unstoppable for Terran and had no answer.

I'm sure that yes, people come off ladder (assuming they play) and come to Avilos stream for validation of their views, just like racist people go to Stormfront for validation. That does not mean we should approve of Stormfront or Avilo, both only reinforce existing negativity.

Avilo does so much damage to the balance discussion because he seeds it with misinformation, nonsense and rhetoric. Just extreme SJW make discussing important topics online difficult, Avilos existence and audience makes discussing balance difficult.

On July 07 2014 09:41 TotalBiscuit wrote:


Why? I've yet to see anyone actually give me a good reason not to. "Don't like it, don't watch it" has never been a good argument.



I do. I wish other streamers would get more viewers and you wouldn't. If anything the fact that you somehow top the albeit rather pitiful viewership figures that we now get for SC2 streams is extremely concerning for the health of this game.



Ahh the good old gladiatorial games principle, keep the plebs distracted and they won't want to revolt against you. Sure, the community would be overall less hostile if the balance were perfect, but you are quite literally an amplifier. You cannot make the argument that the toxicity of the community results from game balance and then try to absolve yourself of all responsibility when you are perhaps the most egregiously vocal about it. You stir the pot, you spread misinformation, at times you outright lie. You are a shock-jock, but you don't have the backbone to stand by the things you say, you would rather blame the developers for making you say them.

They didn't make you say them. You said them of your own free will and you continue to say them. You fuel a small, but vocally misguided part of this community and actively make the scene worse by your very presence.

Toxicity may be a buzz-word, but it's also the most convenient way to describe the way that you act. Poisonous works quite well, we could use that one, it means the same thing. Your attitude is ultimately negative, unconstructive and spreads misinformation amongst the community. What else would you like me to call it? Cancerous? A biohazard? A plague? Carcinogenic? We could go on all day.



What about the responsibility to not spread misinformation? I find it strange that you believe it's ok to call out Blizzard on a daily basis and call out other players for supposedly "streamcheating/maphacking" and yet it is irresponsible for me to call you out for your behavior. If anything you are one of the most irresponsible people in this entire scene. IdrA was irresponsible too but at least he had the results to back it up. Make no mistake, when I make the decision to "call someone out" it's because I believe they are genuinely detrimental to a scene I love very much.



Not really. I don't go out there every day spreading misinformation and lies about people and game balance to try and earn a living. If anything I pride myself on accuracy. Your reputation is solely for whining and accusing others of cheating during your streams. Where do you think that reputation came from? Is it an injustice that you have received that reputation? No not really, that's a reputation of your own making. You've made no effort to improve yourself. You will find the community fairly receptive to public efforts to improve, but if todays "cast" is anything to go by, I'd say you thrive on the negative attention, rely on it indeed to boost your viewership, but can't handle the consequences of playing with fire.

My reputation was built on honesty and consistency, that's why people watch me. Yours was built on the opposite of that and that's why people dislike you. No, not all the hate is justified and no, nobody deserves to be told to "kill yourself faggot" or whatever other hateful stuff is tossed their way, but you DO deserve criticism for your behavior. You earned that criticism by producing content that is driven by vitriol and intellectual dishonesty. People tune in to watch you rage and that is NEVER a good place to be when you're trying to be taken seriously.

But there's good news, you can actually be better. You can get a better mic, you can learn a better attitude. Rather than pretending to be a voice for positive change you can actually be one. Wouldn't that be great?



No we are not on the same team, because I believe that our team would be better if you changed sports.

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EDIT : Nobody believes these 1 post accounts suddenly magically appeared in an LR thread to defend Avilo but "never watched Avilo before". Get real.

On July 07 2014 09:41 TotalBiscuit wrote:
EDIT : Nobody believes these 1 post accounts suddenly magically appeared in an LR thread to defend Avilo but "never watched Avilo before". Get real.