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On July 07 2014 09:41 TotalBiscuit wrote:
...
EDIT : Nobody believes these 1 post accounts suddenly magically appeared in an LR thread to defend Avilo but "never watched Avilo before". Get real.
Wow, now you're bashing users based on their post-count. It's posts like this that give TL the reputation for being an elitist forum. Especially considering that a lot of these 1-post-user posts are actually really good. Like this one for example, which I think sums you up quite nicely:
On July 07 2014 09:37 Sweetpea wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 09:20 TotalBiscuit wrote:On July 07 2014 08:55 Deculo wrote:On July 07 2014 08:20 Lyyna wrote:
This would be relevant if he was just "borderline kinda a bit not okay", and if i talked about his skill. None of these are true.
He's way more than borderline, and his skill level is irrelevant and never had a place in this conversation - outside of the fact he isn't half as good as he thinks he is. His attitude is the problem. Here, I highlighted exactly where you try to debunk the comparison of Idras balance-whine to Avilo Because Idra has more accomplishments and was better at the game. On July 07 2014 07:57 Lyyna wrote:
I haven't said he should be banned. Even though i think he shouldn't be featured.
Idra was punished in the end - and at least, for some time, he was the best foreigner in the world. He had something to back it up, even if it doesn't really justify his terrible attitude, he was still the fucking best at what he did, and he didn't just whine.
He's way more than borderline, and his skill level is irrelevant and never had a place in this conversation - outside of the fact he isn't half as good as he thinks he is. His attitude is the problem.
And the fact that people can identify with him is the problem - because he uses a really common feeling and perception to spread his hate-filled message, and to get fame, while trying as hard as possible to belittle everyone's else in the field of mech, and promoting an agressive, insult/rage-filled attitude, where every loss is due to balance or cheating. He understood that, once you're known for any reason, the best way to stay known isn't talent, skill, practice, good behaviour.. it is controversy in all its forms.
Comparing him to TheDWF or Idra, even if they have their bad sides, is an insult to them, because Avilo has none of the thing that allowed them to be what they've been The rest of your post seems to be just your own personal dislike towards this kid for whatever reasons that happened between you two and only further supports what I've said that people want to remove him simply because they don't like him for personal reasons. And also the fact that you want to point out my two posts in no way discredits or contests anything I've said from being unbiased and true. I've been a long time lurker/reader of forums and have watched sc2 for years. A friend of mine posted me this thread and after I read the comments made by Totalbiscuit I was pretty disgusted. So much so that I actually created an account here just to post about it. It's infuriating. No matter how much a whiny kid wants to call maphacks and cry about balance, it doesn't warrant a level of personal attack and mockery that an established and respected member of the community like TB has given him. It is far beneath the acceptable level of attitude that someone with his status should be acting with. Every time I have seen a TB controversy or dispute with fans that he's routinely belittled and made rude comments towards, i maintained a level of empathy towards him, knowing that his job is hard. It's stressful and none of us who aren't in his position could really understand the pressure of it all. But its quite a hypocracy that someone like TB who has expressed all of the difficulties revolving around being in the spotlight. About how bad he is treated by people on the internet, and how much it bothers him. That this SAME person will go to make personal comments on another personality. Mocking his lisp, making fun of his production and content. I am disgusted. THIS is the cancer of the sc2 community, not some whiny kid, but a full fledged adult and manager of a team being a complete hypocrite and picking on a kid in the community. I have lost any shred of respect that i had for TB after this and it is unacceptable for someone to make those kinds of comments. We're talking about removing Avilo from featured because of his attitude. How can Avilo's attitude be unacceptable because he balance whines and calls maphacks, yet TB can take a deep personal jab about something Avilo cant even change about himself(his voice) and that is acceptable? Where is the punishment for that? Is that the community you want? That anyone who establishes themselves can bash on whoever they like because they don't agree with their opinion? TB might as well be pushing over cripples who are in a wheel chair. If this is the acceptable level of community interaction that you want to be the standard then you shouldn't even be bothered by Avilo's actions, and at the same time I'd rather not even be a part of it after this if these actions from TB are deemed acceptable. Whoop whoop, new Avilo fanboi false equivalency account showdown! You heard it here first folks, saying someone has a lisp and a bad mic is literally the same severity as spending years of your life balance-whining and accusing other players over ghost and maphacking, all while getting paid ad revenue and subscriptions for it. Yep, definitely the same. Also taking a jab at his voice is the same as pushing over cripples in a wheelchair. The cognitive dissonance is both palpable and I suppose necessary to unironically enjoy Avilos stream. You would have to wrap yourself up in some pretty serious mental knots to justify Avilos behavior in your mind, so I guess it's not too big a leap to say that I'm literally Hitler for criticizing Avilos behavior, as well as completely ignore the main point of the post in the first place, which is that Avilo is a toxic, whiny influence on the community. But yeah, keep on believing that I am the REAL CANCER of the community. Also hypocrisy doesn't have an A in it. What sort of influence are you on the community, Mr.Biscuit? You can sit there and pick apart what you do vs what Avilo does but at the end of the day, you started this specific incident. You as a prominent member of the community, you with the success that you have had, you whom has preached about the community and how you are treated. Before you call me an Avilo fan in an attempt to discredit me, I am not. I have not spent more than 10 minutes in his channel in my life. My post isn't about what Avilo has done and will do, it is about you and your poor taste in actions as a member of a community that I am involved in and that I support. If you want to parade around here as someone who should be respected and someone who should be taken seriously, you have to carry yourself as such. As someone who has recently become interested in Starcraft (less than a year), I am saddened that you are one of our representatives. I am watching WCS America as I type this and the chat has been cluttered with talk of this situation you have created in the community today and for that you should be ashamed.
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On July 07 2014 07:08 TotalBiscuit wrote:
It's obvious that Protoss is in a good place right now and that changes need to be made to bring Terran up to their level, but Avilos attitude to it is completely unconstructive.
TB just a few posts earlier
Regardless if Pigbaby wins this tournament it's because he deserved it.
I suppose it is easier to not be toxic when you can just take any side of an issue...
If Pigbaby wins he'll have earned it but that's not quite the same thing as deserving it.
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On July 07 2014 10:13 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 07:08 TotalBiscuit wrote:
It's obvious that Protoss is in a good place right now and that changes need to be made to bring Terran up to their level, but Avilos attitude to it is completely unconstructive.
TB just a few posts earlier I suppose it is easier to not be toxic when you can just take any side of an issue... If Pigbaby wins he'll have earned it but that's not quite the same thing as deserving it.
This isn't a contradiction. You can play the most favoured race and still do impressive things (look at Mvp throughout 2011). My personal position is that nobody who won a tournament ever didn't deserve it, regardless of balance.
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Since replying to all four of you at once is going to take up more space and since you're all trying to do the same thing, one post should be sufficient.
Attempting to attack me for supposedly "insulting" Avilos voice is a cute way of dodging the main issue at hand, which of course was addressed in the large post that none of you really replied to. He is a toxic element of the community and I want him to clean up his act, I want him to stop balance whining, I want him to stop accusing players of cheating/maphacking/ghosting. It is telling that nobody actually DENIED that he did these things. What you are trying to do is paint me as a bully in order to discredit my points, since you can't actually argue them (you know they are true, no amount of cognitive dissonance can explain away reams of chat logs, vods and screenshots).
Then of course we have the KILLING ESPORTS fallacy which you are perpetuating, spurred on nicely by magical 1 post accounts claiming they "just came into the scene" and that this was giving them a "negative impression". No you didn't and no it hasn't, that's a cute device to try and use but that's all it is, a device. You do not have an argument against my point that Avilos attitude and the things that he says on his stream on a daily basis are toxic, you are merely engaging in tu quoque, claiming that actually I'm the toxic one. Those fallacies don't fly, sorry. I'm going to issue you a challenge.
Refute the following statement:
Avilo has repeatedly, on an extremely regular basis, used his stream to complain about balance regarding Protoss and accuse players on ladder of maphacking/streamcheating.
Can you? If not, then there's not much more to argue about. All you lot are trying to prove is that I went about this in the wrong way and frankly good luck with that. "He started it!" is a playground argument. This has been going on for a long time, because Avilo has pulled this shit for a long time. The only difference is that someone with a larger audience than him decided he'd had enough of it and decided to call him out. Hey, y'know what's good for preventing that? Don't do a bunch of shit that causes you to get called out in the first place! Yeah I know, it's a crazy idea. Maybe balance whine less, maybe up your production quality to at least servicable levels especially if you have the audacity to demand subscriber money. Just a few suggestions.
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On July 07 2014 07:57 Lyyna wrote:
Avilo never loses because of his mistakes. Avilo always wins because he outplayed the "fucking maphacking noob". Avilo calls himself the "savior of esport", "god of mech", "creator of [insert some mech/sky related stuff here]" since months, and he does so seriously.
First, avilo admits mistakes and bad play in every stream I've seen him do. The problem it seems to me is that instead of making it easy on people not really paying attention by saying "I am an awful player" he will mostly say something along the lines of "If I defend that drop I would have won the game" which too many people see as an excuse rather than the acknowledgement that he didn't do something he needed to do, in other words, a mistake.
Second, "savior of esports" is in no way serious and it's as bad to not recognize that as a joke as the guy who talked about TB saying he was cutting salary to the Protoss players on his team. As for "God of Mech" it's a title pretty much abandoned, at least in NA but then again there's not that many Terrans in NA anymore to begin with. Finally, for the creation claim there isn't much evidence of turtle-mech or mass raven from Koreans but on the other hand he also has among other things his "Fantasy build" which is directly giving credit to the Korean who inspired his build so at best that one's a wash.
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On July 07 2014 10:25 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Since replying to all four of you at once is going to take up more space and since you're all trying to do the same thing, one post should be sufficient.
Attempting to attack me for supposedly "insulting" Avilos voice is a cute way of dodging the main issue at hand, which of course was addressed in the large post that none of you really replied to. He is a toxic element of the community and I want him to clean up his act, I want him to stop balance whining, I want him to stop accusing players of cheating/maphacking/ghosting. It is telling that nobody actually DENIED that he did these things. What you are trying to do is paint me as a bully in order to discredit my points, since you can't actually argue them (you know they are true, no amount of cognitive dissonance can explain away reams of chat logs, vods and screenshots).
Then of course we have the KILLING ESPORTS fallacy which you are perpetuating, spurred on nicely by magical 1 post accounts claiming they "just came into the scene" and that this was giving them a "negative impression". No you didn't and no it hasn't, that's a cute device to try and use but that's all it is, a device. You do not have an argument against my point that Avilos attitude and the things that he says on his stream on a daily basis are toxic, you are merely engaging in tu quoque, claiming that actually I'm the toxic one. Those fallacies don't fly, sorry. I'm going to issue you a challenge.
Refute the following statement:
Avilo has repeatedly, on an extremely regular basis, used his stream to complain about balance regarding Protoss and accuse players on ladder of maphacking/streamcheating.
Can you? If not, then there's not much more to argue about. All you lot are trying to prove is that I went about this in the wrong way and frankly good luck with that. "He started it!" is a playground argument. This has been going on for a long time, because Avilo has pulled this shit for a long time. The only difference is that someone with a larger audience than him decided he'd had enough of it and decided to call him out. Hey, y'know what's good for preventing that? Don't do a bunch of shit that causes you to get called out in the first place! Yeah I know, it's a crazy idea. Maybe balance whine less, maybe up your production quality to at least servicable levels especially if you have the audacity to demand subscriber money. Just a few suggestions.
I cannot refute it because I don't watch Avilo's stream. I CHOOSE not to watch it because I know what to expect and it is not for me. Just like you can choose to address this issue to Avilo in private, or choose to make an ass of yourself in front of thousands of Starcraft fans that enjoy watching you commentate. As you said, Avilo's 1.3k viewer base is "not impressive", you however have much more influence and fans. By publicly outing Avilo, and alienating probably a good deal of TL readers, you are the one that seems to be having a far more "toxic" effect. But I think you are a great caster
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On July 07 2014 09:20 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Whoop whoop, new Avilo fanboi false equivalency account showdown!
You heard it here first folks, saying someone has a lisp and a bad mic is literally the same severity as spending years of your life balance-whining and accusing other players over ghost and maphacking, all while getting paid ad revenue and subscriptions for it. Yep, definitely the same. Also taking a jab at his voice is the same as pushing over cripples in a wheelchair.
The cognitive dissonance is both palpable and I suppose necessary to unironically enjoy Avilos stream. You would have to wrap yourself up in some pretty serious mental knots to justify Avilos behavior in your mind, so I guess it's not too big a leap to say that I'm literally Hitler for criticizing Avilos behavior, as well as completely ignore the main point of the post in the first place, which is that Avilo is a toxic, whiny influence on the community. The good news is, there is a fix! He can actually improve! He could stop whining literally all the time about Protoss, stop accusing every player who beats him of cheating, buy a proper mic, practice proper enunciation and put on a better show for his viewers. That would be the way to really stick it to me, prove me wrong. But that won't happen and we both know it. What will happen in his fanbois will defend him and claim I am "bullying" Avilo because I had the audacity to be more prominent than he is. Ok, I guess it's only alright for people to call out terrible behavior if they have less viewers than Avilo. I see, that's a convenient way to avoid literally all influential criticism I suppose.
But yeah, keep on believing that I am the REAL CANCER of the community. Also hypocrisy doesn't have an A in it. The next time you look up the definition of it for an internet argument, try looking up the spelling too.
You know the most common rebuttal when you don't have an argument is to try and criticize someone's spelling, because that's all you got. One word, very astute of you TB. Your suspicion of "avilo fanboy" couldn't be farther from the truth. I agreed with the fact that he can be very loud and obnoxious, often overboard with the whining also. I'm not justifying his behavior, but rather, I'm condemning yours.
I'm sorry that you cannot detect the slight amount of sarcasm I had while writing that last piece. I see that you like to focus on the literal meanings of what is typed so i'll spell it out for you in a more direct manner, then maybe you will understand. I was not trying to insinuate that you were acting like Hitler because you were criticizing the kid for what he does, but rather for the methods you used to go about doing it. I was pointing out the irony and hypocrisy(fixed it for you champ) in the fact that you would even make a personal attack on another public figure after knowing, and making a blog about how difficult it has been for you. You point out areas about this kid's personality and character that he himself cannot change. That is how i "equate" it to pushing over a cripple in a wheelchair. You're pointing out, and mocking an aspect of Avilo that he has no control over. Any reasonable person would know better, but that should hold especially true for someone who is an internet personality with a following and manager of an e-sports team. He is not in a position of being a public figure and representative of Starcraft like you are. What looks worse on the SC2 community: A kid acting like a kid and being an idiot, or an adult in a managerial/supervisory position acting like in ass to a smaller personality?
I could care less about what Avilo talks about or does on his stream. he could do backflips and upside down 69's in his chair for all I care. You speak as though the fact he gets ad revenue is a sin. God forbid a kid who found popularity in a video game wants to try and make something out of it. But no, you blatantly say you want to cut him out of one of his methods of promotion. You are basically saying that you want to take money away from him. Do you know what he does with the money he gets from revenue? You are positively using your leverage as a community figure to impact this kids life financially. Why? because you don't like that he whines and complains? Get over yourself. You are not the sole judge and knight for the good of all Starcraft, leading the charge to stomp out anyone who you deem "toxic". Who are you to determine what content comes out of someone elses stream? You should stick to your own projects and your own promotions and not worry about him. But instead you'd rather use your influence and following to belittle, harass, and impede a kid trying to make something for himself.
This is why I say you are being the cancerous element of e-sports that you claim Avilo is. His actions are not hurting anybody. Anyone who dislikes the content of his stream needs only to not watch him and they'll be fine. Yet you insist on wanting him removed. Spreading the message to your following knowing full well they will echo your sentiments and try to make it happen. This is abusing your power and position to leverage a smaller player on what seems to be a whim because his existence offends you.
However none of this will sway your opinion, nor make you realize that you are in fact in the wrong here for bullying some kid with a stream. I don't even think you really care. Because you continue to reply to every response towards you. You seem to enjoy feeding the fire and basking in the attention(from your followers) and controversy (from anyone with morals). You're so deluded by everyone brown-nosing you in this thread that you try to pass off any criticism of what you've said as "omg avilo fanboi's" instead of stepping away or owning up to your own actions.
You can try to argue all you want, but one simple fact remains that myself and many others probably enjoyed starcraft and had respect for the community/scene a bit more before reading this thread, but now it's a bit less. *hint* it wasn't because of Avilo.
So go ahead, try and deflect what I've said to you with another ambulance noise. Avoid the fact that you're trying to leverage some kid and take money away from him through ad revenue solely for the fact that you don't like him and what he says. Maybe you can try making farm animal sounds the new buzzword in your next reply. Don't try and fall back on typing or spelling errors or rely on a witty sentence where you string together words from a thesaurus. Own up to your actions, take responsibility for the fact that you haven't acted like a professional at all in picking on a kid for his physical attributes. If you can't do that then don't even bother replying.
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On July 07 2014 10:25 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Since replying to all four of you at once is going to take up more space and since you're all trying to do the same thing, one post should be sufficient.
Attempting to attack me for supposedly "insulting" Avilos voice is a cute way of dodging the main issue at hand, which of course was addressed in the large post that none of you really replied to. He is a toxic element of the community and I want him to clean up his act, I want him to stop balance whining, I want him to stop accusing players of cheating/maphacking/ghosting. It is telling that nobody actually DENIED that he did these things. What you are trying to do is paint me as a bully in order to discredit my points, since you can't actually argue them (you know they are true, no amount of cognitive dissonance can explain away reams of chat logs, vods and screenshots).
Then of course we have the KILLING ESPORTS fallacy which you are perpetuating, spurred on nicely by magical 1 post accounts claiming they "just came into the scene" and that this was giving them a "negative impression". No you didn't and no it hasn't, that's a cute device to try and use but that's all it is, a device. You do not have an argument against my point that Avilos attitude and the things that he says on his stream on a daily basis are toxic, you are merely engaging in tu quoque, claiming that actually I'm the toxic one. Those fallacies don't fly, sorry. I'm going to issue you a challenge.
Refute the following statement:
Avilo has repeatedly, on an extremely regular basis, used his stream to complain about balance regarding Protoss and accuse players on ladder of maphacking/streamcheating.
Can you? If not, then there's not much more to argue about. All you lot are trying to prove is that I went about this in the wrong way and frankly good luck with that.
I think the point you are missing here TB is that when people go to Avilos stream they see Avilo. When I am in a WCS stream watching an official event and all I see is people talking about you and how you have tweeted some offensive things at other people in the community what should I think? Since you seem to know everything about my intentions here and are denying my credibility due to my post count, what should my reaction be?
I am not interested in your statement about Avilo, Mr.biscuit. I am interested in the fact that a figure head for a community that I do enjoy greatly behaves in the same manner that I would expect some children to behave in an elementary school environment. Publicly you have used your following and your success to put down and shame another person in the community, that is what is giving me the negative impression. I do not want people like you representing me as a Starcraft 2 player and supporter.
Judging by the other posters here before me and the fact that people agree with my post just shows I do not need any luck, but thanks.
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On July 07 2014 10:25 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Refute the following statement:
Avilo has repeatedly, on an extremely regular basis, used his stream to complain about balance regarding Protoss and accuse players on ladder of maphacking/streamcheating.
No one is denying that. But he's a player, not a community spokesperson. That doesn't make all the whining more enjoyable, but primarily people should judge him by his play, not by his attitude.
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On July 07 2014 10:39 Deculo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 09:20 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Whoop whoop, new Avilo fanboi false equivalency account showdown!
You heard it here first folks, saying someone has a lisp and a bad mic is literally the same severity as spending years of your life balance-whining and accusing other players over ghost and maphacking, all while getting paid ad revenue and subscriptions for it. Yep, definitely the same. Also taking a jab at his voice is the same as pushing over cripples in a wheelchair.
The cognitive dissonance is both palpable and I suppose necessary to unironically enjoy Avilos stream. You would have to wrap yourself up in some pretty serious mental knots to justify Avilos behavior in your mind, so I guess it's not too big a leap to say that I'm literally Hitler for criticizing Avilos behavior, as well as completely ignore the main point of the post in the first place, which is that Avilo is a toxic, whiny influence on the community. The good news is, there is a fix! He can actually improve! He could stop whining literally all the time about Protoss, stop accusing every player who beats him of cheating, buy a proper mic, practice proper enunciation and put on a better show for his viewers. That would be the way to really stick it to me, prove me wrong. But that won't happen and we both know it. What will happen in his fanbois will defend him and claim I am "bullying" Avilo because I had the audacity to be more prominent than he is. Ok, I guess it's only alright for people to call out terrible behavior if they have less viewers than Avilo. I see, that's a convenient way to avoid literally all influential criticism I suppose.
But yeah, keep on believing that I am the REAL CANCER of the community. Also hypocrisy doesn't have an A in it. The next time you look up the definition of it for an internet argument, try looking up the spelling too.
You know the most common rebuttal when you don't have an argument is to try and criticize someone's spelling, because that's all you got. One word, very astute of you TB. Your suspicion of "avilo fanboy" couldn't be farther from the truth. I agreed with the fact that he can be very loud and obnoxious, often overboard with the whining also. I'm not justifying his behavior, but rather, I'm condemning yours. I'm sorry that you cannot detect the slight amount of sarcasm I had while writing that last piece. I see that you like to focus on the literal meanings of what is typed so i'll spell it out for you in a more direct manner, then maybe you will understand. I was not trying to insinuate that you were acting like Hitler because you were criticizing the kid for what he does, but rather for the methods you used to go about doing it. I was pointing out the irony and hypocrisy(fixed it for you champ) in the fact that you would even make a personal attack on another public figure after knowing, and making a blog about how difficult it has been for you. You point out areas about this kid's personality and character that he himself cannot change. That is how i "equate" it to pushing over a cripple in a wheelchair. You're pointing out, and mocking an aspect of Avilo that he has no control over. Any reasonable person would know better, but that should hold especially true for someone who is an internet personality with a following and manager of an e-sports team. He is not in a position of being a public figure and representative of Starcraft like you are. What looks worse on the SC2 community: A kid acting like a kid and being an idiot, or an adult in a managerial/supervisory position acting like in ass to a smaller personality? I could care less about what Avilo talks about or does on his stream. he could do backflips and upside down 69's in his chair for all I care. You speak as though the fact he gets ad revenue is a sin. God forbid a kid who found popularity in a video game wants to try and make something out of it. But no, you blatantly say you want to cut him out of one of his methods of promotion. You are basically saying that you want to take money away from him. Do you know what he does with the money he gets from revenue? You are positively using your leverage as a community figure to impact this kids life financially. Why? because you don't like that he whines and complains? Get over yourself. You are not the sole judge and knight for the good of all Starcraft, leading the charge to stomp out anyone who you deem "toxic". Who are you to determine what content comes out of someone elses stream? You should stick to your own projects and your own promotions and not worry about him. But instead you'd rather use your influence and following to belittle, harass, and impede a kid trying to make something for himself. This is why I say you are being the cancerous element of e-sports that you claim Avilo is. His actions are not hurting anybody. Anyone who dislikes the content of his stream needs only to not watch him and they'll be fine. Yet you insist on wanting him removed. Spreading the message to your following knowing full well they will echo your sentiments and try to make it happen. This is abusing your power and position to leverage a smaller player on what seems to be a whim because his existence offends you. However none of this will sway your opinion, nor make you realize that you are in fact in the wrong here for bullying some kid with a stream. I don't even think you really care. Because you continue to reply to every response towards you. You seem to enjoy feeding the fire and basking in the attention(from your followers) and controversy (from anyone with morals). You're so deluded by everyone brown-nosing you in this thread that you try to pass off any criticism of what you've said as "omg avilo fanboi's" instead of stepping away or owning up to your own actions. You can try to argue all you want, but one simple fact remains that myself and many others probably enjoyed starcraft and had respect for the community/scene a bit more before reading this thread, but now it's a bit less. *hint* it wasn't because of Avilo. So go ahead, try and deflect what I've said to you with another ambulance noise. Avoid the fact that you're trying to leverage some kid and take money away from him through ad revenue solely for the fact that you don't like him and what he says. Maybe you can try making farm animal sounds the new buzzword in your next reply. Don't try and fall back on typing or spelling errors or rely on a witty sentence where you string together words from a thesaurus. Own up to your actions, take responsibility for the fact that you haven't acted like a professional at all in picking on a kid for his physical attributes. If you can't do that then don't even bother replying.
amen
User was warned for this post
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On July 07 2014 10:48 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 10:25 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Refute the following statement:
Avilo has repeatedly, on an extremely regular basis, used his stream to complain about balance regarding Protoss and accuse players on ladder of maphacking/streamcheating.
No one is denying that. But he's a player, not a community spokesperson. That doesn't make all the whining more enjoyable, but primarily people should judge him by his play, not by his attitude.
He made himself a spokesperson the moment he found an audience.
I doubt you are correct at all when you suggest that people judge him for his play not his attitude. He is known for his attitude, he doesn't get on the reddit frontpage for his play.Trying to downplay his attitude is I suppose all you can do if you can't deny that it exists.
A giant essay trying to paint Avilo as the victim
There's an interesting phenomenon that I've noticed online. Someone can be a pretty terrible person, with a constant history of really bad behavior, but the moment someone with more influence/popularity than them speaks up against it, suddenly things flip around, the person at fault is the guy who called him on the behavior, not the perpetrator. Perhaps it's some strange idea that people like to root for the underdog, even if the underdog is toxic and pretty horrible.
Overall your massive post is filled with ridiculous highminded ideals that I should take "Responsibility" for my actions while claiming that Avilo should not have to take responsibility for his. Please note that it is still the case that nobody believes you just registered randomly to post all of this stuff. You are clearly extremely passionate on the subject, since you've written more in one day than most people write in a year on this forum, so please do not try and pretend that you aren't coming to defend Avilo from the big bad wolf.
I also find the Avilo fans high-fiving each other in this thread to be amusing, as it somehow helps the argument in any way. You could not be more transparent.
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On July 07 2014 10:25 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Refute the following statement:
Avilo has repeatedly, on an extremely regular basis, used his stream to complain about balance regarding Protoss and accuse players on ladder of maphacking/streamcheating.
Can you? If not, then there's not much more to argue about.
I refute. He has used his stream to complain about balance regarding Protoss, Zerg, and even Terran! When he sees aspects of the game he doesn't like he comments on them. Perhaps you like swarmhosts but avilo isn't alone in his disdain for the unit. Perhaps you think Photon Overcharge is good game design but I can't recall anyone saying it was a spell that showed any use of skill and who wants a "don't fight for a minute" in their RTS game? And remember early in HotS when TvT was nothing but hellbats? No one minded avilo complaining about that.*
As for the maphacking/streamcheating accusations, I think avilo would admit he isn't also right about that but then again we know maphacking is happening and there's little doubt that avilo is often stream-sniped the same as other popular streamers have been. The differences are that the community was mostly on iNcontroL and Destiny's sides against CombatEX and Deezer and the ones targeting avilo don't make themselves as obvious.
(I don't follow other players enough to know but I heard several people and not just avilo mention the game he played today after WCS EU against the Terran called 'Legend' (?) was a known hacker who had been cut from a team for cheating so that would be an example of avilo penalized for knowing more about his opponent and avilo's critics not caring about the difference.)
*edit to add: These are just examples. Again, it's okay for anyone but avilo to complain about things like mass muta or how bad late game TvP gets. It's okay for anyone but avilo to complain about how useless Terran T3 units are.
*second edit to add: High-five fellow avibros and brovilos! Sorry, I didn't realize sooner we were doing that and thanks to TB for correcting my faux pas.
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On July 07 2014 10:54 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 10:25 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Refute the following statement:
Avilo has repeatedly, on an extremely regular basis, used his stream to complain about balance regarding Protoss and accuse players on ladder of maphacking/streamcheating.
Can you? If not, then there's not much more to argue about. I refute. He has used his stream to complain about balance regarding Protoss, Zerg, and even Terran! When he sees aspects of the game he doesn't like he comments on them. Perhaps you like swarmhosts but avilo isn't alone in his disdain for the unit. Perhaps you think Photon Overcharge is good game design but I can't recall anyone saying it was a spell that showed any use of skill and who wants a "don't fight for a minute" in their RTS game? And remember early in HotS when TvT was nothing but hellbats? No one minded avilo complaining about that. As for the maphacking/streamcheating accusations, I think avilo would admit he isn't also right about that but then again we know maphacking is happening and there's little doubt that avilo is often stream-sniped the same as other popular streamers have been. The differences are that the community was mostly on iNcontroL and Destiny's sides against CombatEX and Deezer and the ones targeting avilo don't make themselves as obvious. (I don't follow other players enough to know but I heard several people and not just avilo mention the game he played today after WCS EU against the Terran called 'Legend' (?) was a known hacker who had been cut from a team for cheating so that would be an example of avilo penalized for knowing more about his opponent and avilo's critics not caring about the difference.)
I'm sorry but you are literally trying to defend a guy who spent the entirity of the WCS EU finals doing an audio-cast complaining about Protoss. The only even-handedness that Avilo has ever displayed when it comes to balance is in claiming that his race and style is fine. His Twitter feed is a laundry-list of constant balance-whining and bitching, after which he whined about a new "e-bully".
Jesus christ I agree with you guys on one thing. It does feel like I'm beating up on a child here.
Again, it's okay for anyone but avilo to complain about things like mass muta or how bad late game TvP gets. It's okay for anyone but avilo to complain about how useless Terran T3 units are.
Avilo embellishes his complaints constantly, lies at times, spreads misinformation and complains in an incredibly obnoxious and unconstructive manner. That would be the difference. It is actually ok to discuss balance, but that's not what he is doing, he is preaching his own misguided views and using his stream as a platform to do it, every.. single... bloody... day...
It is time for you guys to go and educate yourself on what tu quoque means rather than trying to drown me in your weight of words.
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On July 07 2014 10:52 TotalBiscuit wrote:
He made himself a spokesperson the moment he found an audience.
I doubt you are correct at all when you suggest that people judge him for his play not his attitude. He is known for his attitude, he doesn't get on the reddit frontpage for his play.Trying to downplay his attitude is I suppose all you can do if you can't deny that it exists.
attitude-wise Naniwa wasn't very different, and he got a lot of hate for it, but in the end the scene exists because we want to see people that are amazing at playing Starcraft. Without a doubt Naniwa played on a completely different level, but I still think it's fair to say that Avilo plays well enough to say that he's not just an entertainer.
I don't think you need to be a fan (I don't enjoy his stream either), but given the fact that he seems to care about the game and is reasonably good at it should give him the benefit of the doubt. I think the crusade like course that you're taking here is a little weird.
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The community as a whole gets exactly what it deserves. It wants to be hyper-critical towards its pros/personalities, live and breath drama? Take great delight in tearing people down? Well then the only people that leaves are players and personalities who have had to adapt to that and harden against peoples constant negativity. The number of pros and personalities still posting here and on Reddit is a tiny fraction of the guys who are still around, most gave up because it wasn't worth it anymore.
You have misunderstood the concept of the moral highground, something you cease to hold when you decide to call people lying, delusional wannabe martyrs while simultaneously trying to lecture them on how they should treat others.
My higher standard of conduct is trying to bring some common sense into the discussion, sharing my experience when it's relevant and not mocking people who have chronic diseases. That and not attacking people unprovoked. Higher standards does not give you carte blanche to go after me with your insults and attacks and then have you retreat to some imagined refuge when you get bitten back for doing so.
Oh to have the invincible adamantium armour that these people supposedly have when it comes to their emotions. I guess the mistaken idea that words can't hurt someone comes from either a place of ignorance or insincerity.
You don't lose points for logical fallacies
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On July 07 2014 11:07 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 10:52 TotalBiscuit wrote:
He made himself a spokesperson the moment he found an audience.
I doubt you are correct at all when you suggest that people judge him for his play not his attitude. He is known for his attitude, he doesn't get on the reddit frontpage for his play.Trying to downplay his attitude is I suppose all you can do if you can't deny that it exists.
attitude-wise Naniwa wasn't very different, and he got a lot of hate for it, but in the end the scene exists because we want to see people that are amazing at playing Starcraft. Without a doubt Naniwa played on a completely different level, but I still think it's fair to say that Avilo plays well enough to say that he's not just an entertainer.
I fundamentally disagree. Avilo is not competitive. He has won nothing, he hasn't even come close to qualifying for even challenger league WCS. He does not pretend to be a competitive player. That leaves only one possibility, he is an entertainer.
I don't think you need to be a fan (I don't enjoy his stream either), but given the fact that he seems to care about the game and is reasonably good at it should give him the benefit of the doubt. I think the crusade like course that you're taking here is a little weird.
Literally years of evidence of toxicity banished the "benefit of the doubt" a while ago.
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On July 07 2014 10:52 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 10:48 Nyxisto wrote:On July 07 2014 10:25 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Refute the following statement:
Avilo has repeatedly, on an extremely regular basis, used his stream to complain about balance regarding Protoss and accuse players on ladder of maphacking/streamcheating.
No one is denying that. But he's a player, not a community spokesperson. That doesn't make all the whining more enjoyable, but primarily people should judge him by his play, not by his attitude. I doubt you are correct at all when you suggest that people judge him for his play not his attitude.
That's where you're wrong, TB. A large portion of his viewers are drawn to his long, macro games that frequently run past the 60 minute mark and almost always involve 200vs200 food battles, and often employ uncommon strategies such as mass nukes. So you are wrong there. Most of his viewers are drawn, at least in part, to his play. Just because someone isn't rank 1 on the Korean server doesn't mean their play isn't worth watching.
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On July 07 2014 11:08 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +The community as a whole gets exactly what it deserves. It wants to be hyper-critical towards its pros/personalities, live and breath drama? Take great delight in tearing people down? Well then the only people that leaves are players and personalities who have had to adapt to that and harden against peoples constant negativity. The number of pros and personalities still posting here and on Reddit is a tiny fraction of the guys who are still around, most gave up because it wasn't worth it anymore. Show nested quote +You have misunderstood the concept of the moral highground, something you cease to hold when you decide to call people lying, delusional wannabe martyrs while simultaneously trying to lecture them on how they should treat others. Show nested quote +My higher standard of conduct is trying to bring some common sense into the discussion, sharing my experience when it's relevant and not mocking people who have chronic diseases. That and not attacking people unprovoked. Higher standards does not give you carte blanche to go after me with your insults and attacks and then have you retreat to some imagined refuge when you get bitten back for doing so. Show nested quote +Oh to have the invincible adamantium armour that these people supposedly have when it comes to their emotions. I guess the mistaken idea that words can't hurt someone comes from either a place of ignorance or insincerity.
This is cute. How long have you been saving that one up for hmm? You know what the provocation was? Sitting on his stream snarking at two excellent WCS EU players, insulting the WCS EU staff on Twitter and oh yeah... his literal years of toxicity on his stream.
What an amazing attempt to change the narrative! So now we are claiming that all the criticism towards Avilo is unwarranted? That the community is trying to tear him down, that poor innocent child? Haha, oh my, that might be the greatest fiction I've read all day.
That's where you're wrong, TB. A large portion of his viewers are drawn to his long, macro games that frequently run past the 60 minute mark and almost always involve 200vs200 food battles, and often employ uncommon strategies such as mass nukes. So you are wrong there. Most of his viewers are drawn, at least in part, to his play. Just because someone isn't rank 1 on the Korean server doesn't mean their play isn't worth watching.
You do not have any proof of this outside of personal anecdotes, whereas the proof of his toxicity is regularly posted online and adorns his Twitter page clear for anyone to see.
The most glaringly obvious thing on display here though is the collective cognitive dissonance of Avilo fans. You know his attitude is terrible, his Twitter is a novel of balance-whining and attacks, he has been called out by the community for a long time for his negativity, hell there was just a guy today doing a play-by-play of his stream where he was accusing yet another player of maphacking (something that he has accused Polts barcode of too btw) and yet you still defend him. That's some very special mental gymnastics required there, very much so. We've really taken a trip down the rabbit hole in this thread and experience some of the rationalisations that you have to make in order to be an Avilo fanboi.
How thoroughly worthwhile.
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On July 07 2014 11:13 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 11:08 Jimmeh wrote:The community as a whole gets exactly what it deserves. It wants to be hyper-critical towards its pros/personalities, live and breath drama? Take great delight in tearing people down? Well then the only people that leaves are players and personalities who have had to adapt to that and harden against peoples constant negativity. The number of pros and personalities still posting here and on Reddit is a tiny fraction of the guys who are still around, most gave up because it wasn't worth it anymore. You have misunderstood the concept of the moral highground, something you cease to hold when you decide to call people lying, delusional wannabe martyrs while simultaneously trying to lecture them on how they should treat others. My higher standard of conduct is trying to bring some common sense into the discussion, sharing my experience when it's relevant and not mocking people who have chronic diseases. That and not attacking people unprovoked. Higher standards does not give you carte blanche to go after me with your insults and attacks and then have you retreat to some imagined refuge when you get bitten back for doing so. Oh to have the invincible adamantium armour that these people supposedly have when it comes to their emotions. I guess the mistaken idea that words can't hurt someone comes from either a place of ignorance or insincerity. You don't lose points for logical fallacies This is cute. How long have you been saving that one up for hmm? You know what the provocation was? Sitting on his stream snarking at two excellent WCS EU players, insulting the WCS EU staff on Twitter and oh yeah... his literal years of toxicity on his stream. What an amazing attempt to change the narrative! So now we are claiming that all the criticism towards Avilo is unwarranted? That the community is trying to tear him down, that poor innocent child? Haha, oh my, that might be the greatest fiction I've read all day.
I'm not saying Avilo is right, merely that you're as bad as him. You both think your opinions are 100% right and that everyone else is wrong, you insult everyone who disagrees with you, and you both think your popularity somehow makes your opinions more worthy than anyone else.
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EPT
