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On July 07 2014 10:30 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 07:57 Lyyna wrote:
Avilo never loses because of his mistakes. Avilo always wins because he outplayed the "fucking maphacking noob". Avilo calls himself the "savior of esport", "god of mech", "creator of [insert some mech/sky related stuff here]" since months, and he does so seriously. First, avilo admits mistakes and bad play in every stream I've seen him do. The problem it seems to me is that instead of making it easy on people not really paying attention by saying "I am an awful player" he will mostly say something along the lines of "If I defend that drop I would have won the game" which too many people see as an excuse rather than the acknowledgement that he didn't do something he needed to do, in other words, a mistake. Second, "savior of esports" is in no way serious and it's as bad to not recognize that as a joke as the guy who talked about TB saying he was cutting salary to the Protoss players on his team. As for "God of Mech" it's a title pretty much abandoned, at least in NA but then again there's not that many Terrans in NA anymore to begin with. Finally, for the creation claim there isn't much evidence of turtle-mech or mass raven from Koreans but on the other hand he also has among other things his "Fantasy build" which is directly giving credit to the Korean who inspired his build so at best that one's a wash.
Avilo admits he makes mistakes ? No , really, you should clean your ears. He won't say "if i defend that drop...". He says "if i defended that drop i would win but my opponent is a streamhacker so he avoided all my defenses! And he plays an op race ! Fu david kim!". Please, even when i was a fan l almost never saw him really admitting a mistake. But it was soooo good to see him do this because, yeah, it was all the fault of balance ! And balance was the only reason a terran could thanks ! Gladly i got away of this one. He ARGUES about how his opponents obviously show stream cheating / map hacking, he ARGUES how he would have won if the game was balanced, he ARGUES how bad he outplayed the other guy who is a total noob.
As for his titles being "no way serious". Lol, try to argue with him whenever he claims ownerships on korean build (funny how you fanboys watch over all his comments but suddenly have memory loss about what he says AND ARGUES ABOUT on twitter whenever there is mech from koreans in proleague ? Or when people talks about other mech players in his chat ? Be it Mario or hell, even myself, rofl. Giving credit to korean ? When it comes to mech, he flat out denies them any credit, and keeps saying he's the mech god who inspired them. All while spreading his hate, whining, and terrible attitude and holding the "it's not me who's bad, it is just that people hate me for being right ; oh and also i have a lot of fanboys" shield.
Funnily you're yourself one of the person who at some points made sure to TO me without reason or warning, simply because i was there discussing mech while being "a known hater".
Remember the modern mechanic thread, with the Mario interview ? in the very first page the dear god of mech came, and hijacked the thread, talking about how the article was a failure because it never mentionned the "guy who is the sole creator of the mech + raven style" and once again he fucked ARGUED about it. He kept talking about it, argued about how it was true, how, like casters when there is a mech game (once again, just be present on his twitter at the right time - but the memory loss is strong in this onne), the author chose on purpose to not mention him.
And it is the same with "savior of esports" and stuff like this. You can say it is a joke, but he uses this joke every day, every stream. He always talks about how he is the guy who is going to save it, how protoss and DK destroy it, about how he's the only person who dare to say it and how the whole community hate him for daring to state the truth.
You can, and he can, do whatever to defend him, but in the end, he's his worst enemy, because no matter how good he tries to appear, watching his stream for one hour will result in cheating accusation, balance whine, other people bashing, etc. Looking at his twitter during a korean game with mech will result in comments about how casters are trying to steal his glory by not saying how he's the guy who first created this. Implying on any media that he isn't the only famous / good mech player, or that he's maybe not having the right attitude, will result in.. all of this. Regardless of how constructive, documented, and polite the reflexions are. And it is partly due to people like you blindly defending him regardless of what happens, regardless of the fact he himself shows quickly the problem, instead of , at some point, stepping in and saying just once "hm, avilo, maybe you could try to be a bit careful with your wording there" or "hm, avilo, even if this guy is a known cheater, you should just report him and moving on, instead of insulting him in game for one hour", or "hm, avilo, even if the whole hate is underserved, you would win a lot by trying to get known for your skills instead of the hate". But no, it is way easier to just sit back and try to defend him whatever happens even when there is tons of proofs everywhere, on his twitter, on his threads, on everything he's involved with , instead of trying to make things better in a simple way, right ?
I would have loved to see avilo being known for his knowledge, analysis, and original play. I tried to give constructive feedbacks, examples, easy solutions, trying to use my good reputation on his stream to show that all i wanted was to help and shif the whole attitude around him towards a positive one. The result ? flagged "hater" for life. arbitraries TO. Laughed at on stream, banned when trying to justify myself. Realized how pointless it was and that he'll never change. Using mass manipulation and controversy is enough to have a ton of people supporting you regardless of what you do, simply because you use what lurks in everyone's mind, and stands as a rebel hero hater by the whole system because h's right.
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Europe holds! 
So glad Stardust won this.
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Can't think of a better way to promote someone than to post a dozen links to their twitter. I don't think even SanDisk got that treatment, and they paid what, $10,000?
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On July 07 2014 11:30 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 11:19 Jimmeh wrote:
I'm not saying Avilo is right, merely that you're as bad as him. You both think your opinions are 100% right and that everyone else is wrong, you insult everyone who disagrees with you, and you both think your popularity somehow makes your opinions more worthy than anyone else. Yes this is very cute, but you don't actually have any proof of that. I insult people that did something to deserve it, as your nice little quote indicated. I gave you a nice long list of the things Avilo has done to deserve the criticism. Nothing I do is without justification, it can't be. As your post proved, there are plenty of people just waiting in the wings to try and argue with my posts, so I try and make sure that I have a very good reason for saying the things I say. I will agree with you on one thing, yes my popularity does make my opinions more worthy than other people. Having a large audience gives you influence and people that will listen to you, which is the only thing that matters when it comes to expressing your opinion. Opinions are not special, they're as common as sand and worth about as much too. Opinions carry weight when there is an audience who will listen to them, which is why it is important NOT to use your audience to spread misinformation and balance-whine. If you have a popular radio show, your opinion matters more than someone who does not. You have influence and an audience, but simultaneously you should not be using that power to spread lies and toxicity. Now you will argue that I do the same thing, but you will be hard-pressed to find any evidence of that. Tu quoque. Even if I were as bad as Avilo for this scene, which I'm obviously not, it still wouldn't invalidate my argument in the first place.
What I don't understand is why you cannot simply insult Avilo's behavir which he is responsible for him self. Insulting an afro-american who you believe to be a bad person by calling him a n.igger is terrible IMO, The same thing goes with making fun of dwarfs (because of their height), people in weelchairs, people who are ugly etc. Is it really your belief thar your justified in making fun of his speech-impediment because you dislike his personality?
Why not simply only criticise his personality and leave the part where you mock him over stuff he has no control over (?).
You heard it here first folks, saying someone has a lisp and a bad mic is literally the same severity as spending years of your life balance-whining and accusing other players over ghost and maphacking, all while getting paid ad revenue and subscriptions for it. Yep, definitely the same. Also taking a jab at his voice is the same as pushing over cripples in a wheelchair.
Here is the issue though: You always tell people they have no idea what they are talking about when they talk about business-related topics in Esports and your probably right. But in this regard, it's the reverse situation. You have a great voice, but you obviously have no idea how people who doesn't feel. I myself lisps and this has had a big impact on my general self-confidence, job opportunities and my social life. I had some experiences before where people mentioned my lisps in a negative way, and I felt absolutely horrible about.
Without a doubt sitting in a wheelchair is a ton worse, but it's the same principle: Making fun of stuff that people has no control over is really one of the worst things you can do as a human being. I hate Avilo's personality as much as you do, but that level type of insults makes it really hard for me to take your side.
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Why are people trying to turn the discussion? Does TB mentioning Avilos lisp make Avilo less of a disease all of a sudden? Should TB have said that? Probably not, but why the fuck does it matter right now? When Avilo does his best to poison the community, it would take a saint not to get mad. Is TB a saint? Probably not, but atleast he has an overall positive impact on the scene, something which can definitely not be said about Avilo.
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Goddamnit. I missed all this. How can I keep my rep as the self proclaimed lying delusional wannabe martyr if I miss stuff like this? I am so sad...
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If we are to remove Avilo from being featured simply because TB doesn't agree with his opinions, because of him being "toxic", what's next? Do we ban people for the music they listen to on stream because TB or someone else doesn't like it?? This whole notion is quite absurd and childish. It is not something that should be made public or needed to be discussed here. There's only going to be bandwagon pitchforking and defending of both parties involved. Look at the issue unbiased for what it is and you'll see that its quite unfair to single someone out and pick on their voice, setup, and how they run their stream. This energy is all wasted on negative and fleeting emotions, when it could be used towards something more positive.
So I think this kinda misses the point. TB isn't in charge of what should be featured on TL. But he can offer his opinion to the TL admins and if they agree with his points, they can do w/e they want. TL is a private enterprise and should be allowed to not endorse Avilo's stream if they don't like it. Personally, I just wish TB had focussed on the actual subjects and left out the unnessarcary bullying.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On July 07 2014 09:26 avilo wrote:
This thread should be about the PvP finals between Stardust/San, not me or you.
Indeed. This discussion stops now, it has been stupid for a whole bunch of pages.
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Did it ever occur to anyone that people wildly complain about protoss because there is a lot worth complaining about? This site can't both support its main game (sc2) while at the same time try to stifle any discussion related to the state of the game. The fanbase has spoken, and it largely believes that there are serious gameplay issues that need to be fixed. How many more tournaments/finals are myself and others going to skip out on because we don't believe the best players are being represented properly? How is it that protoss players are just on a whole new level in 2014 compared to zergs and especially terrans? Did they just eat their wheaties together and refuse to share? This was a nice um 4-0 stomp I guess but maybe they were close games - I didn't watch - though I would have loved to participate. The only thing toxic to this game is the developers refusal to address core gameplay issues that make it a game that is not a fun game to play. Trying to scapegoat certain streamers for their harsh opinions is misdirection at its finest. We all know the reason why sc2 is hurting at the moment, and pretending its not the issue is making things worse for everyone.
Also, TB, you may run a pro team and show your face every once in a while, but your opinion doesn't pull any more weight than someone like Avilo who has been involved in the starcraft scene for far longer than you have. Not everyone has to conform to your outline of proper behavior. Your decision to attack people like him rather than use your status to fight for fixes to the game comes off really badly to us bystanders. Not sure what you said about Avilo's voice, but i find those types of insults coming from your mouth to be really disgusting considering you lead the the pitchfork crowd against someone like ruff only a month or so ago. Your constant foray into these forum scuffles is what I truly to find to be toxic because you know before you say anything that a million fanboys will instantly defend every word you say and then some. Talk about false bravery. Take up an important issue like avilo and see how much support you get. For someone who prides their entire existence on exuding professionalism, you come off as an amateur.
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it's a shame the finals didn't live up to what the semis did. It was quite fun for a while. A bit like this LR, started well then turned into r/starcraft
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On July 07 2014 21:55 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 09:26 avilo wrote:
This thread should be about the PvP finals between Stardust/San, not me or you. Indeed. This discussion stops now, it has been stupid for a whole bunch of pages.
I don't understand this at all. I find it extremely important that the community clearly demonstrates that it doesn't support cyberbullying regardless of whom it comes from and whom it is directed against. If anything this discussion is gathering way too little attention relative to what Ruff or someone like Orb did.
If anything, when authority bullies other pepole (they don't like), it makes other people perceive that type of behaviour as being acceptable. I cannot understand how TL isn't actively supporting a discussion of whether this type of behaviour is acceptable.
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On July 08 2014 00:45 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 21:55 Zealously wrote:On July 07 2014 09:26 avilo wrote:
This thread should be about the PvP finals between Stardust/San, not me or you. Indeed. This discussion stops now, it has been stupid for a whole bunch of pages. I don't understand this at all. I find it extremely important that the community clearly demonstrates that it doesn't support cyberbullying regardless of whom it comes from and whom it is directed against. If anything this discussion is gathering way too little attention relative to what Ruff or someone like Orb did. If anything, when authority bullies other pepole (they don't like), it makes other people perceive that type of behaviour as being acceptable. I cannot understand how TL isn't actively supporting a discussion of whether this type of behaviour is acceptable.
I'd like to end my involvement in this thread by pointing out that Hider seems to think I bullied Avilo and that saying someone has a lisp and a bad mic is literally worse than calling people n.iggers on stream or making an extremely hurtful remark towards someone with a chronic and debilitating illness. A lisp is not a chronic and debilitating illness and as much as you would love to change the narrative and avoid the main point of this whole thing, that Avilo is a toxic balance-whining stain on the community, the only people who are buying that are the Avilo fanbois brought to this thread by the constant linking of it in his chat.
If anything this thread has been a very nice demonstration of the lengths people will go to defend Avilo, divorcing themselves from reality in order to do so.
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and avoid the main point of this whole thing, that Avilo is a toxic balance-whining stain on the community, the only people who are buying that are the Avilo fanbois brought to this thread by the constant linking of it in his chat.
So here is the thing: I don't particularly care about this. My personal opinion is that Avilo can go crazy around on his stream - some people likes it and while it's not my cup of tea, people have different preferences. Avilo doing a dumb radio podcast doesn't really hurt me when I don't watch his streams and it seems most people take all of his opinions with a grain of salt so his actual influence on the community is very limited. However, I do have sympahty for those who believe that type of behaviour isn't acceptable and suggests that he isn't worthy of being in TL. So in that regard, I am not against you trying to argue that Avilo doesn't deserve to be featured.
But you using a physical disability in order to increase the level insult is IMO very unsymphatic. Noone lisps intentionally and I can tell you I wish with all my heart that I would dream of having a different voice, and I take it very personal when someone is mentioning it. I believe the same thing applies to handicapped people, and that's the parallel I am drawing, even though it ofc is of a different caliber.
You say that I am changing the subject, but in that proces your simply taking away the responsiblity of your self. Imagine someone writing this tweet about an afro-american:
This guy is really annoying and dumb. He as done XX... Oh and btw he is also a fucking niggar
Then other people would call out the tweeter for unncesary racism instead of discussing whether the afro-american did something wrong. IMO the exact same concept can be applied here. Why on earth did you have to insult him by mentioning his lisps? You could have avoided that part or edited it/deleted a while ago, after people like me have pointed out the unnecesity of it. If you really want the discussion to focus on whether Avilo should be feauted or not, why did you include that unncesary insult?
From my point of view, it's simply a lot more important to try to disencourage authority figures (like your self) from making that type of personal insult than fighting for Avilo to not be feautured. That's basically why I am focussing on that type of discussion. When that is said, you write a lot of stuff, and your bound to make "mistakes" occationally. I hope you will try not to repeat this type of behaviour, becasue I don't wanna stop rootong for you and all the good things you do for the community.
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I'm not that interested in defending avilo from made-up quotes. Maphacking, strteam cheating, and stream sniping are facts so in that regard the question is only if avilo is more often right or wrong. Personally, I don't care either way. It's fine for people to hold it against him but it is factually incorrect to claim he blames every loss on it. In the same way we could quibble about the difference between claims to have "invented" a style and builds and to have "popularized and innovated" (which is what avilo actually said in that Mario interview post you mentioned) but again, I don't care.
On July 07 2014 15:59 Lyyna wrote:
Funnily you're yourself one of the person who at some points made sure to TO me without reason or warning, simply because i was there discussing mech while being "a known hater".
Oh I would certainly have a reason and it would have nothing to do with me recognizing your name.
Implying on any media that he isn't the only famous / good mech player, or that he's maybe not having the right attitude, will result in.. all of this. Regardless of how constructive, documented, and polite the reflexions are. And it is partly due to people like you blindly defending him regardless of what happens,
Again, you are simply factually incorrect. But even if what you said were true you still have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. Twitch chatrooms aren't God-given 1st Amendment zones and what to you might be insightful commentary can very often be tired rehashed ideas that were dismissed long ago that the rest of us are tired of hearing every day.
Look, I get it. You told avilo how he should behave and what he should say and how he should play and avilo didn't change into the person you wanted him to be. Alas. I've sent him music playlists that he doesn't use. More's the pity. We can't always get what we want. At the end of the day the anti-avilo screeds amount to little more than other common complaints such as "Rock and roll isn't good music" or "I am tired of comic book movies." Opinions are fine but it's worth noting the hate against avilo is very often more toxic and hateful than anything avilo himself does or says.
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In other words, this argument is about both parties (mostly) missing the focal points of the other's argument. So both sides please shut the hell up.
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On July 08 2014 01:05 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I'd like to end my involvement in this thread
You mean I can give up any hope of getting answers to the following:
[C]an you give us some examples of where avilo is wrong and Blizzard is correct in your opinion? Do you think BCs are cost-efficient? Do you tell your players they would increase their chances to win if they nuked more? Do you think mech is fine in TvP? Do you think Photon Overcharge is an exciting addition to SC2 and a perfect solution for weaknesses in early game Protoss builds?
If anything this thread has been a very nice demonstration of the lengths people will go to defend Avilo, divorcing themselves from reality in order to do so.
I'm just happy that in the end we can agree that Protoss and/or Terran need changes to bring them closer to equal balance and look forward to hearing what your team players recommend.
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Wow, the last 20 pages of this thread. Just wanted to say that totalbiscuit is the toxin here. Yes, Avilo whines about balance. In many cases he's made good points. But I've never seen him run someone else down to this extent. You may not like balance whining, but it's infinitely preferable to attacking somebody personally like this.
Also,
On July 07 2014 09:41 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2014 09:26 avilo wrote:
My stream is my stream TB. If you don't like it, don't watch. You should not be trying to push around your weight to push out other SC2 content producers because of your own personal dislike for them or w/e else.
Why? I've yet to see anyone actually give me a good reason not to. "Don't like it, don't watch it" has never been a good argument.
Yeah, dude, it always has been, because in virtually all cases it's preferable to policing everyone.
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EPT
