EPTHow thoroughly worthwhile. Kappa
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[WCS EU] Ro4 and Finals Premier Season 2 2014 - Page 73
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ATChriz
Canada6 Posts
How thoroughly worthwhile. Kappa User was warned for this post | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On July 07 2014 11:19 Jimmeh wrote: I'm not saying Avilo is right, merely that you're as bad as him. You both think your opinions are 100% right and that everyone else is wrong, you insult everyone who disagrees with you, and you both think your popularity somehow makes your opinions more worthy than anyone else. Yes this is very cute, but you don't actually have any proof of that. I insult people that did something to deserve it, as your nice little quote indicated. I gave you a nice long list of the things Avilo has done to deserve the criticism. Nothing I do is without justification, it can't be. As your post proved, there are plenty of people just waiting in the wings to try and argue with my posts, so I try and make sure that I have a very good reason for saying the things I say. I will agree with you on one thing, yes my popularity does make my opinions more worthy than other people. Having a large audience gives you influence and people that will listen to you, which is the only thing that matters when it comes to expressing your opinion. Opinions are not special, they're as common as sand and worth about as much too. Opinions carry weight when there is an audience who will listen to them, which is why it is important NOT to use your audience to spread misinformation and balance-whine. If you have a popular radio show, your opinion matters more than someone who does not. You have influence and an audience, but simultaneously you should not be using that power to spread lies and toxicity. Now you will argue that I do the same thing, but you will be hard-pressed to find any evidence of that. Tu quoque. Even if I were as bad as Avilo for this scene, which I'm obviously not, it still wouldn't invalidate my argument in the first place. | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On July 07 2014 10:58 TotalBiscuit wrote: I'm sorry but you are literally trying to defend a guy who spent the entirity of the WCS EU finals doing an audio-cast complaining about Protoss. Yeah, avilo doesn't have the casting experience to find a way to discuss things like swarmhosts and mass muta during the PvP finals. Cmon, TB. We need to keep the goalposts in one place if we are going to get anywhere. Are we talking about today or are we talking about avilo's history? As I mentioned before, avilo was complaining about BL/infestor for months while others said "Stop whining and let the Terrans figure out the new meta" but now in retrospect the new meta was just Zergs learning how to be even more greedy. Now in retrospect it is easy for everyone to agree Zerg was IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA IMBA but we still can't forgive avilo, eh? The only even-handedness that Avilo has ever displayed when it comes to balance is in claiming that his race and style is fine. No. If you watched his stream more often you would know better. It's fine you don't like him but as you pride yourself on accuracy you should be careful. FWIW, avilo has said many times he would love to play attacking mech but that hasn't been viable since BroodWar. (And before you dispute that go check out Mvp's mech game vs Life at that GSL finals to see what to expect with mech when you move out without being maxed.) he is preaching his own misguided views and using his stream as a platform to do it, every.. single... bloody... day... It is true, avilo is one of the very, very, very few who streams SC2 almost every day, let alone as Terran, let alone as meching Terran. As for his misguided views, I don't pay attention to the name of the people who are accused of maphacking or cheating so if we put that aside, can you give us some examples of where avilo is wrong and Blizzard is correct in your opinion? Do you think BCs are cost-efficient? Do you tell your players they would increase their chances to win if they nuked more? Do you think mech is fine in TvP? Do you think Photon Overcharge is an exciting addition to SC2 and a perfect solution for weaknesses in early game Protoss builds? | ||
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codonbyte
United States840 Posts
On July 07 2014 11:13 TotalBiscuit wrote: This is cute. How long have you been saving that one up for hmm? You know what the provocation was? Sitting on his stream snarking at two excellent WCS EU players, insulting the WCS EU staff on Twitter and oh yeah... his literal years of toxicity on his stream. What an amazing attempt to change the narrative! So now we are claiming that all the criticism towards Avilo is unwarranted? That the community is trying to tear him down, that poor innocent child? Haha, oh my, that might be the greatest fiction I've read all day. You do not have any proof of this outside of personal anecdotes, whereas the proof of his toxicity is regularly posted online and adorns his Twitter page clear for anyone to see. The most glaringly obvious thing on display here though is the collective cognitive dissonance of Avilo fans. You know his attitude is terrible, his Twitter is a novel of balance-whining and attacks, he has been called out by the community for a long time for his negativity, hell there was just a guy today doing a play-by-play of his stream where he was accusing yet another player of maphacking (something that he has accused Polts barcode of too btw) and yet you still defend him. That's some very special mental gymnastics required there, very much so. We've really taken a trip down the rabbit hole in this thread and experience some of the rationalisations that you have to make in order to be an Avilo fanboi. How thoroughly worthwhile. Oh, you wanna play that game? Well, you don't have any proof that he's lying! Prove that his balance complaints are false! Come on, prove to me that Terran isn't underpowered! Prove that the majority of the players he accuses aren't cheating/map-hacking! Yeah, see? It works both ways, buddy. Anyway, to get back to what you said, the evidence I'm going by is the feedback that I get from viewers who watch his channel. And the comments that i get from viewers in chat when he isn't playing (such as today). This afternoon, many of his viewers enjoyed his WCS commentary that you seem to have gotten your panties in a bunch over, but an equally vocal portion of viewers just wanted him to play some games. Chat was filled with cries for "MECH IT HAPPEN!!" "COME ON AVILO 90 MINUTE GAME PLEEEEEEEEZ!!!!", etc. So while you are correct that he is an entertainer, he is also a player, with a playstyle that is the main attraction for many of his viewers, who enjoy seeing long 60+ minute games with massive gas-heavy late-game armies. And you can say "oh you only have anecdotal evidence blaah blaah blaah" all you want, and to an extent, that is true. I have not handed out a survey to his viewers asking them why they watch him (although that's a good idea, thanx bud). However, as a moderator of his channel, viewer feedback is often directed at me, and I can say with a high degree of certainty that the majority of the viewers that give positive feedback are drawn to his play. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On July 07 2014 11:33 codonbyte wrote: Prove that the majority of the players he accuses aren't cheating/map-hacking! Yeah, see? It works both ways, buddy. "Prove a negative". Oh you really are getting desperate aren't you? Of all the hilarious quotes from "brovilos" today that's gotta be in the top 5 though. I'll remember the one. "Prove that all of Avilos opponents aren't maphacking!" yeah ok I'll get right on that. | ||
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Synastren
United States31 Posts
I can't stand avilo's analysis, his play style, or his acolytes. I feel like his contributions to SC2 meta have done nothing but make late game TvZ stale; his turtley mass raven style is boring and obnoxious to play against. He complains, he makes false accusations of players who beat him, and he regularly and erroneously whines about balance. He is a player, and is therefore free to be whatever sort of public figure he wants to be with no real ramifications except to his own reputation. That is completely irrelevant to your unprofessional conduct, your deliberate obfuscation of what the TL community is trying to say, and your constant repetition of "but look how bad he is!" to defend your litany of attacks (interestingly, in direct contraposition of your own previous statements on ad hominems). You have done fantastic things for the SC2 community in general and the American scene in general, and I'm thankful for that, but what you are doing here is the opposite of productive. You own a team, you run a series of successful tournaments, and you are highly invested in both the community and the professional scene. Your reputation (for better or worse) reflects on the greater SC2 community in ways that avilo's never will. If you are going to hold yourself to a higher standard, this most certainly isn't it. I agree that avilo hasn't positively affected the Starcraft community, but I don't think that attempting to have a confrontation in public is a positive action to take, either. When you look like a jerk, it reflects poorly on the scene in general, given your popularity and projects. When avilo looks like a jerk, he's wearing an ushanka, and people make a fake clan tag to mock him. You can correctly or incorrectly berate avilo for his conduct and his actions, but that doesn't require that you engage in ad hominems to do so. | ||
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Kitaen
Austria466 Posts
On July 07 2014 11:30 TotalBiscuit wrote: I will agree with you on one thing, yes my popularity does make my opinions more worthy than other people. Having a large audience gives you influence and people that will listen to you, which is the only thing that matters when it comes to expressing your opinion. lol, this is not only arrogant but plain wrong. your argument is valid if your opinion is shared by the majority of your audience, which is probably not the case when reading through the comments above. moreover a true opinionleader does not have to mention his opinion is the right one. it will naturally spread and be acknowledged. | ||
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codonbyte
United States840 Posts
On July 07 2014 11:35 TotalBiscuit wrote: "Prove a negative". Oh you really are getting desperate aren't you? Of all the hilarious quotes from "brovilos" today that's gotta be in the top 5 though. I'll remember the one. "Prove that all of Avilos opponents aren't maphacking!" yeah ok I'll get right on that. That was only one line in a multi-paragraph post. The purpose of that line was to show how ridiculous that argument was, because you used the exact same argument in the post I quoted. Let's see you respond to the rest of my post, which, for reference, is as follows: Anyway, to get back to what you said, the evidence I'm going by is the feedback that I get from viewers who watch his channel. And the comments that i get from viewers in chat when he isn't playing (such as today). This afternoon, many of his viewers enjoyed his WCS commentary that you seem to have gotten your panties in a bunch over, but an equally vocal portion of viewers just wanted him to play some games. Chat was filled with cries for "MECH IT HAPPEN!!" "COME ON AVILO 90 MINUTE GAME PLEEEEEEEEZ!!!!", etc. So while you are correct that he is an entertainer, he is also a player, with a playstyle that is the main attraction for many of his viewers, who enjoy seeing long 60+ minute games with massive gas-heavy late-game armies. And you can say "oh you only have anecdotal evidence blaah blaah blaah" all you want, and to an extent, that is true. I have not handed out a survey to his viewers asking them why they watch him (although that's a good idea, thanx bud). However, as a moderator of his channel, viewer feedback is often directed at me, and I can say with a high degree of certainty that the majority of the viewers that give positive feedback are drawn to his play. | ||
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eightym
United States76 Posts
On July 07 2014 09:41 TotalBiscuit wrote: Why? I've yet to see anyone actually give me a good reason not to. "Don't like it, don't watch it" has never been a good argument. I do. I wish other streamers would get more viewers and you wouldn't. If anything the fact that you somehow top the albeit rather pitiful viewership figures that we now get for SC2 streams is extremely concerning for the health of this game. Ahh the good old gladiatorial games principle, keep the plebs distracted and they won't want to revolt against you. Sure, the community would be overall less hostile if the balance were perfect, but you are quite literally an amplifier. You cannot make the argument that the toxicity of the community results from game balance and then try to absolve yourself of all responsibility when you are perhaps the most egregiously vocal about it. You stir the pot, you spread misinformation, at times you outright lie. You are a shock-jock, but you don't have the backbone to stand by the things you say, you would rather blame the developers for making you say them. They didn't make you say them. You said them of your own free will and you continue to say them. You fuel a small, but vocally misguided part of this community and actively make the scene worse by your very presence. Toxicity may be a buzz-word, but it's also the most convenient way to describe the way that you act. Poisonous works quite well, we could use that one, it means the same thing. Your attitude is ultimately negative, unconstructive and spreads misinformation amongst the community. What else would you like me to call it? Cancerous? A biohazard? A plague? Carcinogenic? We could go on all day. What about the responsibility to not spread misinformation? I find it strange that you believe it's ok to call out Blizzard on a daily basis and call out other players for supposedly "streamcheating/maphacking" and yet it is irresponsible for me to call you out for your behavior. If anything you are one of the most irresponsible people in this entire scene. IdrA was irresponsible too but at least he had the results to back it up. Make no mistake, when I make the decision to "call someone out" it's because I believe they are genuinely detrimental to a scene I love very much. Not really. I don't go out there every day spreading misinformation and lies about people and game balance to try and earn a living. If anything I pride myself on accuracy. Your reputation is solely for whining and accusing others of cheating during your streams. Where do you think that reputation came from? Is it an injustice that you have received that reputation? No not really, that's a reputation of your own making. You've made no effort to improve yourself. You will find the community fairly receptive to public efforts to improve, but if todays "cast" is anything to go by, I'd say you thrive on the negative attention, rely on it indeed to boost your viewership, but can't handle the consequences of playing with fire. My reputation was built on honesty and consistency, that's why people watch me. Yours was built on the opposite of that and that's why people dislike you. No, not all the hate is justified and no, nobody deserves to be told to "kill yourself faggot" or whatever other hateful stuff is tossed their way, but you DO deserve criticism for your behavior. You earned that criticism by producing content that is driven by vitriol and intellectual dishonesty. People tune in to watch you rage and that is NEVER a good place to be when you're trying to be taken seriously. But there's good news, you can actually be better. You can get a better mic, you can learn a better attitude. Rather than pretending to be a voice for positive change you can actually be one. Wouldn't that be great? No we are not on the same team, because I believe that our team would be better if you changed sports. ------- EDIT : Nobody believes these 1 post accounts suddenly magically appeared in an LR thread to defend Avilo but "never watched Avilo before". Get real. You're better than this TB. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11803 Posts
There's a chicken & egg thing, though, because it's not like I remember a time where a big part of the SC2 community wasn't toxic, and I know I've been toxic in some cases as well when my race was the weakest. Maybe we get the heroes we deserve. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
I'll leave you tonight with a selection of your lord and saviors recent tweets. Please keep trying to twist me into the villain in this scenario, it is extremely amusing to watch the depths that people will stoop to in order to not be wrong in their own minds. These will all posted within the last 24 hours. There are quite literally thousands more. So we can add attention-whoring and being deliberately inflammatory to the list of accusations, alongside hours of streaming and insulting WCS players and staff. G'night. I've had quite enough of fighting 100 duck-sized horses. | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2593 Posts
On July 07 2014 12:07 TotalBiscuit wrote: Haha oh look, more 1-2 post accounts cropping out of the wood-work. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?! I'll leave you tonight with a selection of your lord and saviors recent tweets. Please keep trying to twist me into the villain in this scenario, it is extremely amusing to watch the depths that people will stoop to in order to not be wrong in their own minds. These will all posted within the last 24 hours. There are quite literally thousands more. https://twitter.com/avilosc2/status/485979554247217153 https://twitter.com/avilosc2/status/485872163778351104 https://twitter.com/avilosc2/status/485870601564082176 https://twitter.com/avilosc2/status/485870518911111168 https://twitter.com/avilosc2/status/485870001572683776 https://twitter.com/avilosc2/status/485849883299958785 https://twitter.com/avilosc2/status/485648537435533312 https://twitter.com/avilosc2/status/485839496714256385 So we can add attention-whoring and being deliberately inflammatory to the list of accusations, alongside hours of streaming and insulting WCS players and staff. G'night. I've had quite enough of fighting 100 duck-sized horses. You know it, they are fanboys that refuse logic, so why argue? You've made your point now ignore them and have a good day. | ||
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dvorakftw
681 Posts
On July 07 2014 12:07 TotalBiscuit wrote: G'night. I've had quite enough of fighting 100 duck-sized horses. Sweet dreams, TB. If you check back tomorrow, to be helpful, here are my questions that you didn't get around to answering tonight: [C]an you give us some examples of where avilo is wrong and Blizzard is correct in your opinion? Do you think BCs are cost-efficient? Do you tell your players they would increase their chances to win if they nuked more? Do you think mech is fine in TvP? Do you think Photon Overcharge is an exciting addition to SC2 and a perfect solution for weaknesses in early game Protoss builds? I'll also just add the observation that SC2 is pretty fun to watch when players can do many different builds with many different types of units with a good expectation of winning. Do you think that accurately describes the current state of Terran? | ||
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ATChriz
Canada6 Posts
I feel people flock to Avilo because he is a beacon of hope to those frustrated by the Protoss imbalance in the game similar to the Broodfestor era back in WoL (Read the "ZParcraft" article). Many casual sc2 players have left the game because of how unbalanced they think Protoss is, and Avilo just makes the problem known (in his highly controversial and politically unacceptable manner of course). Despite all of Avilo's faults and bad manners he does have good intentions for Sc2 as an e-sport. Avilo thinks if the game is balanced, the SC2 will attract those alienated by the imbalances of the game and SC2 will therefore be a more successful e-sport. He just attracts loads of negative attention because of his colourful act while doing so. | ||
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Spect8rCraft
649 Posts
On July 07 2014 12:23 ATChriz wrote: Despite Avilo's harsh language and finger pointing, he does have a point though. Protoss is OP and Terran is underpowered (Read the "ZParcraft" article), and it is no coincidence that Protoss have won the WCS championships in all regions as of late. I feel people flock to Avilo because he is a beacon of hope to those frustrated by the Protoss imbalance in the game similar to the Broodfestor era back in WoL (Read the "ZParcraft" article). Many casual sc2 players have left the game because of how unbalanced they think Protoss is, and Avilo just makes the problem known (in his highly controversial and politically unacceptable manner of course). Despite all of Avilo's faults and bad manners he does have good intentions for Sc2 as an e-sport. Avilo thinks if the game is balanced, the SC2 will attract those alienated by the imbalances of the game and SC2 will therefore be a more successful e-sport. He just attracts loads of negative attention because of his colourful act while doing so. Execution is part of the act. It's the same reason why many people can't take Blizzard seriously, because their execution is bizarre. How does buffing medivacs and widow mines answer the call of complaints about mech and other aspects of Terran gameplay? Likewise, how does being a belligerent fanatic make the argument for mech any more convincing for Blizzard than, say, HTOMario? People easily forget that on the other side of the screen lies another person. While positive comments might not have much of an impact, a negative one can make a bigger deal. And not likely in the way avilo would like. And will someone please tell Genna to rip TB away from the computer? | ||
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TeslasPigeon
464 Posts
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feebas
Finland268 Posts
On July 07 2014 12:40 TeslasPigeon wrote: Why is everyone talking about Avilo and was Stardust's victory spech good? Only caught the back end of it, but apparently he did a commentary restream of the finals, complete with some of his finest reflections on the state of the game to date. | ||
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Synastren
United States31 Posts
I just said you were being an ass, and that was being more actively detrimental to the community than a player with an ushanka. Which you reinforced. Well played. | ||
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Jepsyn
Canada364 Posts
On to WCS.. well played Stardust you won by earning it and balance whining cannot take away from that fact. | ||
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daskilla
Latvia141 Posts
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