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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:22 Lyyna wrote: Do you give arguments' lessons ? i would love to take one from you I can give you his last and most important argument and you don't even have to pay me for that. + Show Spoiler + "I have a lot of followers and a business behind me, i am important, you aren't really, so i am right obviously" | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12179 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:24 codonbyte wrote: Actually my point was that both of our opinions are just that -- opinions, and that neither of us is right or wrong because there is no right or wrong, it's all a matter of personal preference. Everytime I read this sentence on the internet I want to scream. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:22 BlueFlames wrote: Actually that would only apply to an agruement in person. Over the internet, the effect is lost. I feel you can make up for the lack of quality with quantity. Everytime I read this sentence on the internet I want to scream. It is my opinion that there are not hats. Don't oppress me by disagree with my opinion, I cannot be wrong because it's an opinion. | ||
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codonbyte
United States840 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:19 SatedSC2 wrote: It's fine for them to enjoy his stream, and no one is suggesting that Twitch ban him from streaming (a boy can dream). The problem is that TL are supposed to be anti-balance whine and anti-toxicity, and so they shouldn't be promoting someone who goes against those "principles" on a constant basis. I was under the impression that TL bans balance whine on certain parts of their site because certain subforums would quickly become unusable if balance whine was allowed on them (i.e. the strategy forum). | ||
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:26 The_Red_Viper wrote: I can give you his last and most important argument and you don't even have to pay me for that. + Show Spoiler + "I have a lot of followers and a business behind me, i am important, you aren't really, so i am right obviously" Funnily enough, what i see is "even though i'm giving an offensive opinion, it is still a right and valid one that is supported by quite a lot of persons, while still keeping a quite decent level of argumentation". Also, funny to mention things like this, considering avilo's main defense is a bunch a die-hard following fanboys who give him importance. | ||
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codonbyte
United States840 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:26 nkr wrote: that he is a toxic balancer whiner isn't an opinion at this point Yes it is. You can disagree about whether or not it is toxic and bad for the community. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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BlueFlames
Germany1756 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:27 TotalBiscuit wrote: I feel you can make up for the lack of quality with quantity. It is my opinion that there are not hats. Don't oppress me by disagree with my opinion, I cannot be wrong because it's an opinion. Agreed. You cant win an argument over the internet. Never. Quantity is good to silence most people though. | ||
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:30 codonbyte wrote: Yes it is. You can disagree about whether or not it is toxic and bad for the community. I guess if you're an avilo fan you can disagree, but that would be like a north korean disagreeing that their people are opressed. | ||
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starslayer
United States696 Posts
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:33 starslayer wrote: remember when with thread was about wcs eu and not about hating everyone. good times good times. but if i have to say something there is no reason for TB to say anything about avilo not warranted imo , even if avilo likes to cry wolf(hackers, imba toss,etc) people like him, if you dont, dont watch. if avilo meets the requirements to be featured he should be featured like him or not. so unless TL changes the rules just to unfeature avilo or unfeatures him just because some people dont like what he has to say,this whole thing has been a waste of all your time but i had fun time reading it. and to be clear im on no ones side not TB or avilo but feel this is just getting silly no reason for any of this. plz if you dont like someone or there stream dont watch them or talk about them and let them die out. really if anything TB is helping avilo out with giving him more publicity, he just had like 2000 views during all this and now down to 1200. "if avilo meets the requirements to be featured he should be featured" He also meets requirements that got people shunned from TL in the past | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:29 Lyyna wrote: Funnily enough, what i see is "even though i'm giving an offensive opinion, it is still a right and valid one that is supported by quite a lot of persons, while still keeping a quite decent level of argumentation". Also, funny to mention things like this, considering avilo's main defense is a bunch a die-hard following fanboys who give him importance. I don't even talk about avilo, it is just literally TB's last argument he oftentimes uses. And only cause you think TB's argumentation is solid, doesn't mean it is. He didn't have one solid argument why avilo should be unfeatured on TL, actually it won't even make any difference, TL is not important for streamers anymore at all. It just is hilarious to me that he wants a balance whiner to be "banned" , there is just no point in doing so. So yeah, i just engage in this conversation cause it amuses me in the end i guess. | ||
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codonbyte
United States840 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:31 SatedSC2 wrote: ... and that makes them pro-balance whine? I don't know what your argument is. Nooo, that means that TL is only against it when it mucks up their forums, hence why you get banned for balance whining in the strategy forum. But being against it when it mucks up the strategy forum does not mean that you think that all balance whine everywhere under any circumstance whether you're in a house or with a mouse or with a fox in a box or on a train in the rain is evil and must not be linked to or supported in any way by the site. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Lyyna
France776 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:35 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't even talk about avilo, it is just literally TB's last argument he oftentimes uses. And only cause you think TB's argumentation is solid, doesn't mean it is. He didn't have one solid argument why avilo should be unfeatured on TL, actually it won't even make any difference, TL is not important for streamers anymore at all. It just is hilarious to me that he wants a balance whiner to be "banned" , there is just no point in doing so. So yeah, i just engage in this conversation cause it amuses me in the end i guess. no solid argument besides his constant whine / cheating accusations / other players belittling-shadowing / bragging that we can see by just tuning in for one hour on his stream ? Or other things like his fanboy hords harassing people, downvoting/arguing/etc whatever that could hurt their idol in the least subtle way possible ? Really, i mean, i'm trying hard not to be a hater. I used to be an hardcore fan, and an active participant/supported. I'm relatively known as someone cool and constructive, but, really.. | ||
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Dakreyas
9 Posts
Just ignore him like I do and move on. Dude does nothing but insult and belittle others-- the ultimate example of throwing stones in glass houses. Let him have his casual and clueless fans, and everyone else let's just enjoy SC2... thank God he hardly casts anymore. His gold league level game knowledge is always a drag. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:43 Dakreyas wrote: TB is one of the most toxic people in this community. Just ignore him like I do and move on. Dude does nothing but insult and belittle others-- the ultimate example of throwing stones in glass houses. Let him have his casual and clueless fans, and everyone else let's just enjoy SC2... thank God he hardly casts anymore. His gold league level game knowledge is always a drag. Avilo fans ladies and gentlemen. | ||
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BlueFlames
Germany1756 Posts
On July 07 2014 07:43 Dakreyas wrote: TB is one of the most toxic people in this community. Just ignore him like I do and move on. Dude does nothing but insult and belittle others-- the ultimate example of throwing stones in glass houses. Let him have his casual and clueless fans, and everyone else let's just enjoy SC2... thank God he hardly casts anymore. His gold league level game knowledge is always a drag. Yeah his sandisk invitational was a joke. The play and the commentary were so toxic to the community, that even Artosis decided to join in. Kappa? Am i doing this right? User was warned for this post | ||
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Deculo
United States4 Posts
As a long-time avid SC2 watcher and fan, I'm quite saddened reading the past few pages of this thread. I've only seen Avilo's stream a handfull of times while browsing the Starcraft section on twitch.tv. I agree that Avilo comes off as a quite arrogant, loud, obnoxious, balance-whining kid. However, I don't see that as a reason to ban him from the TL featured list. What I'm seeing here that is really concerning to me as a fan of this scene, is that a prominent and highly respected member of the SC2 community is calling out Avilo's stream, making personal attacks/insults towards him (referring to a lisp), and in general causing a hate-fest between two groups of the sc2 fanbase (people who support TB and people who support Avilo). These actions are the ones that are "cancerous" for our scene. Nothing positive comes from hate mongering on another personality just for the sole purpose that "I don't agree with their opinion and how they run their stream". The simple answer to this whole issue is that if you don't like a personality....then DON'T WATCH THEIR STREAM! It's as simple as that. Out of sight, out of mind. Just because you don't like how someone operates their stream and the content on it is not grounds for a removal from a featured list. He meets the requirements, is not cheating or promoting cheating. For whatever reason people watch Avilo's stream (to troll, mock, balance-whine, legitimately watch) the fact is that he brings in viewers. More viewers = more people interested in the game. For example, if I wanted to try and get a friend interested in SC2, I could show them a TB stream with a high level pro match going on that has great commentary, and they may not like it or be into it. It's high quality, good casting etc, but that may be too much for a newer viewer to get into, understand, or even care about what is really going on. It may just be boring to them and they wont stick around to watch it. On the other hand, a new viewer can tune into Avilo's stream and watch some kid rage about how his opponent is cheating, how bad he is, calling him a map hacker and freaking out, then proceed to do air kung-fu after the game. It might appeal to some people to see how ridiculous it is, and as they watch they'll end up having a growing interest in the game and someday play themselves or watch legitimate pro level content. While his approach may be annoying, his opinions could be wrong, or not the same as TB's, I believe Avilo is entitled to them. Nobody in the community is the judge of whats "right" or "wrong". Those sentiments are purely from a self-perspective. They are not a legitimate reason to ban someone from a community. A player over expressing his opinions however false they may be is not "cancerous". What is cancerous, is that someone like Totalbiscuit who has a following and great influence within the community is actually making personal attacks on smaller players simply for the fact that they don't like their opinion. This only causes extreme drama and negativity within the community that we all care about. I believe that TB is saying what he says because he cares about the community image and feels that Avilo is toxic towards it. But making personal attacks is quite a bit excessive and doesn't sit well with me as a viewer/fan. But at the same time, for all over his obnoxious rants, and overboard balance-whines, I think that Avilo truly cares about the game as well. Nobody would spend as much time as he does streaming and going off the deep end about maphacking and imbalance without being extremely passionate about the game. Granted, I don't think the way he does it is very constructive at all, but it's not causing players to leave the scene or abandon their sc2 passion.(everyone coming from TL already knows/cares about starcraft. They wont suddenly just hate Starcraft because they clicked on an Avilo stream) If we are to remove Avilo from being featured simply because TB doesn't agree with his opinions, because of him being "toxic", what's next? Do we ban people for the music they listen to on stream because TB or someone else doesn't like it?? This whole notion is quite absurd and childish. It is not something that should be made public or needed to be discussed here. There's only going to be bandwagon pitchforking and defending of both parties involved. Look at the issue unbiased for what it is and you'll see that its quite unfair to single someone out and pick on their voice, setup, and how they run their stream. This energy is all wasted on negative and fleeting emotions, when it could be used towards something more positive. Anyhow /endrant. Time to hit post and be swallowed by the sea of replies into obscurity. | ||
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Kerence
Sweden1817 Posts
To Avilos defence, while I was watching for a little bit he actually told his viewers not to hate on you. Guess they didn't listen. | ||
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