[IEM] Cologne Day 4 - Ro8, Ro4 and Grand Finals - Page 443

Okay calm down folks, stop balance whining or the bans are going to get long.

Phaenoman

568 Posts

February 17 2014 10:46 GMT

#8841

I think this IEM had enough stuff to make a bestof-video (like u would do for a year-recap with the best moments) That would be sick :O So many incredible moments!!!!!!!

tar

Germany991 Posts

February 17 2014 10:52 GMT

#8842

just cought up on the vods. what fantastic finals. both played so well (and screwed up so hard at times). Really really entertaining! gg

Darkhorse

United States23455 Posts

February 17 2014 13:02 GMT

#8843

On February 17 2014 17:36 sharkie wrote:
Jaedong was the true winner of this tournament...

A shame he got ....

Yeah losing in the semis usually makes you the true winner of the tournament haha. What a baseless claim

opterown

Australia54784 Posts

February 17 2014 13:04 GMT

#8844

On February 17 2014 22:02 Darkhorse wrote:

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Yeah losing in the semis usually makes you the true winner of the tournament haha. What a baseless claim

fuck yeah all those maru 1-3s? WIN!

SC2Toastie

Netherlands5725 Posts

February 17 2014 13:05 GMT

#8845

Okay calm down folks, stop balance whining or the bans are going to get long.

Some people are getting frustrated at other people....

Darkhorse

United States23455 Posts

February 17 2014 13:06 GMT

#8846

On February 17 2014 22:04 opterown wrote:

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fuck yeah all those maru 1-3s? WIN!

Yeah but Prime aren't the champions of GSTL it's the semi final kings TSL who are the real winners

Firebolt145

Lalalaland34483 Posts

February 17 2014 13:09 GMT

#8847

I hope red stands out better than black.

herMan

Japan2053 Posts

February 17 2014 13:35 GMT

#8848

Great tournament, great finals. It was hard to watch polt get hammered by hero's storms. Even though hero is super fucking good it's painful for a terran to play against protoss in the lategame.

NoobSkills

United States1595 Posts

February 17 2014 15:14 GMT

#8849

On February 17 2014 15:01 vthree wrote:

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On February 17 2014 13:49 NoobSkills wrote:

On February 17 2014 13:07 vthree wrote:

On February 17 2014 11:19 NoobSkills wrote:

On February 17 2014 11:12 Tanzklaue wrote:

On February 17 2014 11:09 KrazyTrumpet wrote:

On February 17 2014 11:07 Tanzklaue wrote:

On February 17 2014 11:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:

On February 17 2014 11:01 imrusty269 wrote:

On February 17 2014 10:59 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
[quote]
GSL barely getting started this year, I think this tournament was just a teaser as to the level of play we can expect from 2014. Calling it right now, SC2 gonna hit a golden age of amazingness this year.

You should thank Polt for that. I'm not so hopeful for GSL tho.

Why?

because GSL is a protossfest, and polt is the only one who makes PvT an enjoyable to watch match up atm. not even maru can hold his ground anymore atm.

We'll see. Frankly, Polt isn't doing anything new/fancy/hard he's just playing really mechanically and strategically solid. I feel like other Terrans can learn a lot from him. Terrans that I think are frankly better overall players.

the only terrans i know who could be better than polt are innovation (slumps), maru (still has to be tested), taeja (still has to be tested but looked shaky and unimpressive at asus rog) and TY (doesn't play in GSL or any other tournamnet besides proleague).

out of those i honestly only see taeja and maru emulating this style to fully. innovation always was more of a bruteforcing player, and TY... well he is irrelevant to individual leagues anyway

Honestly the other Terrans need to step their game up. Polt could've had this series if he protected his mineral lines and maybe if he concentrated a bit more on unit to unit counters. Two of those games he had a ghost academy while hero had storm, but produced no ghosts. He was relying on brute force for a bit too long in those games. This event was really fucking solid though. The games were sexy almost all of them. Too bad GSL won't be anything like this. Code A T and Z need to step their fucking game up and get into S.

I think just saying protecting his mineral lines is a bit simplified. It is like saying that HerO would have rolled Polt over if he just stopped all the snipes from Polt. With Polt's Nexus sniping style, you can't really afford to have units at all your minerals lines, units out on the map looking for Nexus snipers AND a main army to stop the protoss from just pushing in. That is what made the game so fun, both players were aggressive and they went blow for blow.

We have to remember that we as spectator see the whole map. So it is easy for us to say Polt should have had units in place for that warp prism drop or HerO should have had units there to prevent the snipe. But in the fog of war, it is impossible to have all your units in position. Rain is probably the best at this with his mass obs. But then he can't be as aggressive, it is a trade off. If you can build an army that can attack while defending everything, it would be OP.

It actually is just that simple though. It isn't about leaving army or a big supply of army that is. 2 marauders and a few well placed turrets would deter that drop. Then the protoss would have to remove that 4 supply defense to drop the mineral line. If then protoss decided to take out that defense you could A. Replace it. B. remove miners from location until you can replace it C. attempt to snipe incoming drop. That style of defense saved Hero's base many times. A cannon and a templar. These strategic placements have been used for a long time, but he neglected them, and also he kept taking the base that made sense for his style, but not for protecting the lines, and if that is what you want to accomplish(to be agressive) then you might need to spend some money on turrets.

I want to be clear the cost for hero to remove 20-30 works a drop was typically 500minerals 300 gas costing the terran 1000 minerals AND lowing the amount of mining done. The turrets + marauders as a zoning technique would have made these drops less frequent of irreverent depending on the map or at the very least made the protoss try much harder to pull them off. Also the defense even if it is a light zoning fits with his play style since he attempts to keep aggression on at all times the missing few marines/marauders due to building that defense would not affect him as greatly in the long run when compared to losing 20 workers.

2 marauders isn't going to kill the HTs before they get storm off. And unless you have your whole base cover by turrets (which would cost quite a bit of mineral), zealot warpins can still hurt you.

As for protoss base defense, you can't really do a direct comparison because of warp ins. A cannon and HT is enough to hold off until the warp in is finished. HerO would have lost tons of workers from drops if it wasn't for warp in. I am not complaining about balance but rather difference races have different defensive setups. You cannot compare a terran defense vs protoss defense directly.

HerO also lost a lot from Nexus snipes while Polt didn't lose his CC as much. Does that necessary mean HerO had worse base defense, not necessarily, It just means Protoss can kill workers via storm drops much faster and Terran can snipe Nexus faster so that is what they did. At the end of the day, it is eco damage.

A turret ring far enough out or a turret + viking stops the warp prism from dropping the units directly on the line of workers. A marauder prevents the logical next step when dropping directly on the minerals is not an option which is walking your templar past the turret to storm your mineral line. Honestly on the last map they played his second expansion was able to be covered by a viking and 2 turrets. These turrets would also prevent DT's from entering the base as well. Yes, you are right zealot warp-ins can still work, but they will not only focus the marauder frist, but they are slow in killing scvs as well.

I can directly compare the defenses of the races. These defenses are not direct unit to unit confrontations. They are delays to protect your economy until you can rebuild that delay and fend off the units. A cannon and a templar support delaying drops until you can warp in. A turret and a marauder support delaying drops until you can allocate some of your army, run scvs, whatever. They work the the same way even though they're not the same units.

You are comparing economic damage to an extent but you are missing details. Hero prevented some nexus snipes by having the proper units in place. A nexus being rebuilt takes less time than producing 30 workers. One or two nexus dying does not necessarily stop the mining of the leftover workers, only delays it. Meanwhile dead workers don't mine ever again.

Mensol

14536 Posts

February 17 2014 16:22 GMT

#8850

congrats to TL.

i was cheering for jaedong vs polt final but oh nothing to do :/

scypio

Poland2127 Posts

February 17 2014 17:37 GMT

#8851

I was halfway sleeping through the final games (they came in so late). At about 02:30 AM I hear the casters shout: "Yes! Polt did it! We will go to game 7!"

And then... Polt tries to outmultitask Hero, Hero's defense is solid and he takes G6. Damn casters

Deleted User 261926

960 Posts

February 17 2014 17:57 GMT

#8852

This tournament was entartaining but it felt kind of unfair. I don't think JD dropping that last map to hero was due to his lower ability but rather due to severe lacking map design. As much as I've never taken seriously zerg wins over protosses on daedalus point I find myself giving the same treatment to sentry based compositions on yeonsu.

And it also seemed to me that polt could not do anything more than he did in g7 vs hero because he was literally everywhere but the fact that 1 ht (2 food) can nullify a whole medivac full of harrassers is pretty bad to watch although "flashy".

And just to make it clear I believe that sc2 has never been this good to watch, just giving my two cents.

SC2Toastie

Netherlands5725 Posts

February 17 2014 18:28 GMT

#8853

Funfact: From the group stage onward, IEM Cologne has had 2 matches that did not include at least one protoss. Being Innovation v Heromarine and ForGG v Hyun. Every other match included a protoss player.

0.0

I didn't even realise that :D

SC2Toastie

Netherlands5725 Posts

February 17 2014 18:29 GMT

#8854

On February 18 2014 02:57 Karpfen wrote:
And it also seemed to me that polt could not do anything more than he did in g7 vs hero because he was literally everywhere but the fact that 1 ht (2 food) can nullify a whole medivac full of harrassers is pretty bad to watch although "flashy".

You know, I am of the opinion a supply low -DEFENSE- SHOULD be capable of working, sadly, the HT is the only unit in SC2 that pulls defending with low supply off really well. 1 HT with 2/3 cannons is good!
Nerf economy and stretch maps and that one mechanic of low supply defense makes the game great :D

Lorning

Belgica34432 Posts

February 17 2014 18:32 GMT

#8855

On February 18 2014 03:28 SC2Toastie wrote:
Funfact: From the group stage onward, IEM Cologne has had 2 matches that did not include at least one protoss. Being Innovation v Heromarine and ForGG v Hyun. Every other match included a protoss player.

0.0

I didn't even realise that :D

Thanks for pointing that out, Dinotramp.

Eliezar

United States481 Posts

February 17 2014 18:50 GMT

#8856

On February 18 2014 03:29 SC2Toastie wrote:

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Or the zerg put 4-7 spines at a base...or the Terran planetary...or the Terran with a couple mines...there are tons of low food base defense options

However, most of the time Hero wasn't using a low supply defense. He would have a base that often had 1-2 Templar with 1-3 cannons or 3-5 zealots.

The big story of this series in my opinion (other than Polt just deciding no defense was needed at his back base) was that Hero realized Polt doesn't death ball so Hero spread his army like crazy and made a small high powered ball to bully the map. It was rather humorous to see them both hovering near 180 supply and have a battle of main armies that looked like about 25 bio, 6 medivacs vs 4 colossus, 10 gateway units.

As much as people want to interject balance into the tournament I would have to say that the deciding factors were that Polt essentially countered the MSC and blink attacks and that Hero adapted to each opponent he played. Hero completely out strategized Innovation (scout shows 1 rax 1 engineering bay? You can't stop blink all in) and Polt (you are never all together? well then I can just keep a group of units at every base and intercept your small packs of units).

Great tournament...

Reminds me of an old MC interview "Game 2 him drone, drone, drone, me all in, me win"

SC2Toastie

Netherlands5725 Posts

February 17 2014 20:28 GMT

#8857

On February 18 2014 03:32 Lorning wrote:

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Thanks for pointing that out, Dinotramp.

?
I am missing something. If somebody else said that first, I'm sorry I don't keep up with everything :-(

SC2Toastie

Netherlands5725 Posts

February 17 2014 20:29 GMT

#8858

On February 18 2014 03:50 Eliezar wrote:

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Planetary and Mines are not really good defense....... Nor are they versatile.

Spines come close I suppose, but are very costly.

No seriously, the HT is the best defensive/positional unit in the game, and that is completely fine, but we need more of those types of unit :D