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I want to see how Soulkey and Jaedong gonna react to Flash's Mech TvZ.We'll we ever see JD in PL?
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On January 19 2014 23:22 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 23:16 Tyrhanius wrote:
The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases.
Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base.
Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better.
Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings.
Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him. Why can't DRG split up his swarmhosts to defend in the same way Flash split up his tanks? The locusts could travel half the map before dieing, so I don't think it was necessarily favored for Flash. DRG just got outplayed here imo, he didn't play badly but made a few mistakes and was out-multitasked.
You have seen the whole locust army + infested terran don't even kill a PF repair with 3-4 tank. Flash save his base nearly just whith repear (you maybe haven"t noticed DRG has been mobile with his SH, attacking different base at each wave). So i don't think spitting SH is a good move while all have done no dmg.
Also SH are not a real range unit, you can't place a few of them at some good spot and kill a free expand. On the other hand, the map allow 3-4 tank to shoot hatch + worker, completly deny this. And the ground distance to reach the tank over the cliff is so huge that the time you manage to get them, the domage is done.
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On January 19 2014 23:44 Pandemona wrote:VODs up 
Youtube says it's still processing them.
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On January 19 2014 23:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 23:25 Green_25 wrote:On January 19 2014 23:23 Destructicon wrote:On January 19 2014 23:22 Green_25 wrote:On January 19 2014 23:16 Tyrhanius wrote:
The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases.
Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base.
Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better.
Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings.
Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him. Why can't DRG split up his swarmhosts to defend in the same way Flash split up his tanks? The locusts could travel half the map before dieing, so I don't think it was necessarily favored for Flash. DRG just got outplayed here imo, he didn't play badly but made a few mistakes and was out-multitasked. SH are way stronger in mass, splitting them up makes both groups weaker. So are tanks though. On that map, the locusts can get everywhere, if you split your swarmhosts perfectly you would be immune to back attacks. It would obviously be very hard to do, but definitely possible on that map. If he splits his SHs flash counterrepairs the PF while amoving the other group of SHs with an unsieged army - or even worse - just moves his army to DRGs bases and it's checkmate. The whole point of Swarm Hosts is that you pin down the Mech army in a sieged position and avoid combats while wearing him down, since you cannot win a real battle.
I get what you are saying, but DRG had so many swarm hosts it would've been possible imo. Repairing PFs won't work against someone of DRG's skill, just target scvs/mules, constantly switching from one side of the map to the other, eventually the terran will get worn down being less cost efficient.
You can't amove swarm hosts successfully unless the zerg isn't paying attention, the style relies on creep spread and map vision. Just spawn locusts, retreat, regroup etc.
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On January 19 2014 23:13 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 23:10 anatase wrote:On January 19 2014 23:05 Caihead wrote:On January 19 2014 22:57 Zheryn wrote:On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote:
anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma. lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts. He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts. Just no. Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH. Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran.
... which exists as a reaction to the Terran going mech. The Terran starts it all by going mech, that's just a fact :-P
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On January 20 2014 00:10 Tyrhanius wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 23:22 Green_25 wrote:On January 19 2014 23:16 Tyrhanius wrote:
The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases.
Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base.
Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better.
Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings.
Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him. Why can't DRG split up his swarmhosts to defend in the same way Flash split up his tanks? The locusts could travel half the map before dieing, so I don't think it was necessarily favored for Flash. DRG just got outplayed here imo, he didn't play badly but made a few mistakes and was out-multitasked. You have seen the whole locust army + infested terran don't even kill a PF repair with 3-4 tank. Flash save his base nearly just whith repear (you maybe haven"t noticed DRG has been mobile with his SH, attacking different base at each wave). So i don't think spitting SH is a good move while all have done no dmg. Also SH are not a real range unit, you can't place a few of them at some good spot and kill a free expand. On the other hand, the map allow 3-4 tank to shoot hatch + worker, completly deny this. And the ground distance to reach the tank over the cliff is so huge that the time you manage to get them, the domage is done.
The point of swarm hosts is that if used correctly they are free damage no matter what, unless the terran has PDD free damage is going to occur. Even if they don't kill the PF, repair costs money, you target scvs, etc. Terran loses units here and there always.
I get what you are saying about splitting them up, but when you get 30+ as DRG had its certainly possible. No offense, but I think a lot of zergs lack creativity with swarm hosts, they are potentially way more powerful. Most terrans would say that the way Flash used his tanks this game was suicide, but it worked here, I think zerg can do the same with swarm hosts. Its just really apm intensive.
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On January 19 2014 23:47 Tchado wrote:I think zergs need batriders from warcraft 3  some kind of baneling-mutalisk hybird "THE END....JUSTIFIES THE MEANS !!!!"
you mean scourge?
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On January 20 2014 00:18 Swisslink wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 23:13 Green_25 wrote:On January 19 2014 23:10 anatase wrote:On January 19 2014 23:05 Caihead wrote:On January 19 2014 22:57 Zheryn wrote:On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote:
anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma. lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts. He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts. Just no. Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH. Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran. ... which exists as a reaction to the Terran going mech. The Terran starts it all by going mech, that's just a fact :-P
The true reaction to mech should always be to kill them during the midgame, as it was in BW. However, mech shoudn't be AS strong as it is late game TvZ, I admit. Ravens are pretty dumb.
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On January 20 2014 00:22 Tanzklaue wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 23:47 Tchado wrote:I think zergs need batriders from warcraft 3 some kind of baneling-mutalisk hybird "THE END....JUSTIFIES THE MEANS !!!!" you mean scourge?
my bad , I didn't play enough BW to remember zerg had that shit
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On January 20 2014 00:22 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 00:18 Swisslink wrote:On January 19 2014 23:13 Green_25 wrote:On January 19 2014 23:10 anatase wrote:On January 19 2014 23:05 Caihead wrote:On January 19 2014 22:57 Zheryn wrote:On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote:
anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma. lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts. He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts. Just no. Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH. Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran. ... which exists as a reaction to the Terran going mech. The Terran starts it all by going mech, that's just a fact :-P The true reaction to mech should always be to kill them during the midgame, as it was in BW. However, mech shoudn't be AS strong as it is late game TvZ, I admit. Ravens are pretty dumb.
you mean sentry/immortal balance?
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Nicely done, KT, as a Baby fan, never expected KT to take first place before this season starts.
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On January 20 2014 00:35 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 00:22 Green_25 wrote:On January 20 2014 00:18 Swisslink wrote:On January 19 2014 23:13 Green_25 wrote:On January 19 2014 23:10 anatase wrote:On January 19 2014 23:05 Caihead wrote:On January 19 2014 22:57 Zheryn wrote:On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote:
anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma. lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts. He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts. Just no. Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH. Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran. ... which exists as a reaction to the Terran going mech. The Terran starts it all by going mech, that's just a fact :-P The true reaction to mech should always be to kill them during the midgame, as it was in BW. However, mech shoudn't be AS strong as it is late game TvZ, I admit. Ravens are pretty dumb. you mean sentry/immortal balance?
I mean if the meching terran becomes secure on 4 base with 200/200 he should have an advantage, but not an unbeatable one. And it should be very hard to get there.
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On January 20 2014 00:43 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 00:35 Big J wrote:On January 20 2014 00:22 Green_25 wrote:On January 20 2014 00:18 Swisslink wrote:On January 19 2014 23:13 Green_25 wrote:On January 19 2014 23:10 anatase wrote:On January 19 2014 23:05 Caihead wrote:On January 19 2014 22:57 Zheryn wrote:On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote:
anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma. lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts. He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts. Just no. Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH. Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran. ... which exists as a reaction to the Terran going mech. The Terran starts it all by going mech, that's just a fact :-P The true reaction to mech should always be to kill them during the midgame, as it was in BW. However, mech shoudn't be AS strong as it is late game TvZ, I admit. Ravens are pretty dumb. you mean sentry/immortal balance? I mean if the meching terran becomes secure on 4 base with 200/200 he should have an advantage, but not an unbeatable one. And it should be very hard to get there.
yeah, that's sentry/immortal balance.
BL/Infestor was hard to reach because of it, but if you reached it you'd win 7-8/10 times. But Protoss still could win with a vortex.
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On January 20 2014 00:43 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 00:35 Big J wrote:On January 20 2014 00:22 Green_25 wrote:On January 20 2014 00:18 Swisslink wrote:On January 19 2014 23:13 Green_25 wrote:On January 19 2014 23:10 anatase wrote:On January 19 2014 23:05 Caihead wrote:On January 19 2014 22:57 Zheryn wrote:On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote:
anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma. lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts. He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts. Just no. Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH. Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran. ... which exists as a reaction to the Terran going mech. The Terran starts it all by going mech, that's just a fact :-P The true reaction to mech should always be to kill them during the midgame, as it was in BW. However, mech shoudn't be AS strong as it is late game TvZ, I admit. Ravens are pretty dumb. you mean sentry/immortal balance? I mean if the meching terran becomes secure on 4 base with 200/200 he should have an advantage, but not an unbeatable one. And it should be very hard to get there.
Well, I think here we got the problem. It's not too hard to get there. I mean, of course the Zerg might be able to punish the meching Terran at some stage of the game, but I think most of these timings rely on the assumption that the Zerg knows from the very beginning that the Terran's going for mech. Which is a coinflip and a HUGE risk many players aren't willing to take.
I'd agree if it was very hard to reach this 200/200 mech ball on 4 bases, but right now I don't think it is. And therefore: Right now the Zerg are forced to go for Swarmhosts ;-)
I have to admit, I have barely ever seen a meching Terran NOT reaching a 200/200 army lately.
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Just watched the VoD of the final game and OMG it was so close!
DongRaeGu spammed like 6 fungals on those clumped up vikings, and later on is missing a single one to put the game in his favor. A bit sloppy, but well.
I feel Flash taking his 4th that early shouldn't be unpunished, and with just a small pack of ling-muta it could be denied.
Cool to see Flash do well, sad that DongRaeGu isn't in final boss mode yet. GG.
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On January 20 2014 00:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2014 00:43 Green_25 wrote:On January 20 2014 00:35 Big J wrote:On January 20 2014 00:22 Green_25 wrote:On January 20 2014 00:18 Swisslink wrote:On January 19 2014 23:13 Green_25 wrote:On January 19 2014 23:10 anatase wrote:On January 19 2014 23:05 Caihead wrote:On January 19 2014 22:57 Zheryn wrote:On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote:
anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma. lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts. He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts. Just no. Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH. Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran. ... which exists as a reaction to the Terran going mech. The Terran starts it all by going mech, that's just a fact :-P The true reaction to mech should always be to kill them during the midgame, as it was in BW. However, mech shoudn't be AS strong as it is late game TvZ, I admit. Ravens are pretty dumb. you mean sentry/immortal balance? I mean if the meching terran becomes secure on 4 base with 200/200 he should have an advantage, but not an unbeatable one. And it should be very hard to get there. yeah, that's sentry/immortal balance. BL/Infestor was hard to reach because of it, but if you reached it you'd win 7-8/10 times. But Protoss still could win with a vortex.
It wouldn't be as extreme as that, BL/Infestor was winning more than 7-8/10 times too. Anyway in principle I don't have anything wrong with this kind of balance, as long as the way you break them in the midgame doesn't rely on silly cheese, weird build orders, and forcefields, which it wouldn't because its TvZ. There should also be more ways for zerg to win in the late game, rather than just the lucky vortex in wings.
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T.O.P
469 Posts
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Flash is the new Bisu: Confirmed!! Great at PL, fail in individual tournaments.
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On January 20 2014 02:15 GWdeathscythe wrote:
Flash is the new Bisu: Confirmed!! Great at PL, fail in individual tournaments.
its more about the matchups, not the tournament
Flash has become a one matchup guy
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On January 19 2014 23:24 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2014 23:20 orvinreyes wrote:On January 19 2014 23:13 Green_25 wrote:On January 19 2014 23:10 anatase wrote:On January 19 2014 23:05 Caihead wrote:On January 19 2014 22:57 Zheryn wrote:On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote:
anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma. lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts. He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts. Just no. Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH. Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran. Lets just say both sides are problematic. Therefore, TvZ is balanced!  No, sky terran is imbalanced, noone is arguing against that. I'd like to see zerg get a late-game anti-air buff, and I'm terran.
Well, DRG would have won if he didn't miss the first chain fungal.
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EPT
