EPT[SPL] MVP vs KT - Round 1 2014 - Page 37
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zeratul_jf
United States808 Posts
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orvinreyes
577 Posts
On January 19 2014 23:13 Green_25 wrote: Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran. Lets just say both sides are problematic. Therefore, TvZ is balanced!  | ||
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ANLProbe
667 Posts
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Pangpootata
1838 Posts
On January 19 2014 23:16 Tyrhanius wrote: The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases. Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base. Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better. Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings. Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him. They could try to challenge for air superiority, or abuse mech's immobility by doing multi-pronged attacks. You should have seen how flash was struggling to constantly un-siege and re-siege his tanks in different locations against DRG. DRG was close to winning at many moments; he played quite well, but Flash was just better. | ||
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Green_25
Great Britain696 Posts
On January 19 2014 23:16 Tyrhanius wrote: The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases. Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base. Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better. Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings. Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him. Why can't DRG split up his swarmhosts to defend in the same way Flash split up his tanks? The locusts could travel half the map before dieing, so I don't think it was necessarily favored for Flash. DRG just got outplayed here imo, he didn't play badly but made a few mistakes and was out-multitasked. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On January 19 2014 23:22 Green_25 wrote: Why can't DRG split up his swarmhosts to defend in the same way Flash split up his tanks? The locusts could travel half the map before dieing, so I don't think it was necessarily favored for Flash. DRG just got outplayed here imo, he didn't play badly but made a few mistakes and was out-multitasked. SH are way stronger in mass, splitting them up makes both groups weaker. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On January 19 2014 23:21 Pangpootata wrote: They could try to challenge for air superiority, or abuse mech's immobility by doing multi-pronged attacks. You should have seen how flash was struggling to constantly un-siege and re-siege his tanks in different locations against DRG. DRG was close to winning at many moments; he played quite well, but Flash was just better. SH are also super immobile and trying to get air dominance would have only worked if he had killed everything with fungals. Terran air is super scary. | ||
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Green_25
Great Britain696 Posts
No, sky terran is imbalanced, noone is arguing against that. I'd like to see zerg get a late-game anti-air buff, and I'm terran. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 19 2014 23:13 AlternativeEgo wrote: Can't you work some magic with ultras and vipers? Cast some clouds and unleash the stampede, you know. Yoink a little. Not with that many Vikings in the air. You won't get your Vipers near the tanks. Also switching into melee and costly ultras from the (in the midgame) required range composition usually does not equate having any useful amount of them. On January 19 2014 23:19 zeratul_jf wrote: I think flash could of killed that swarmhost army if he made banshees and cut down on the vikings at one point. There were only three queens and no AA for DRG. Instead he sac all his vikings going for overlords? I was screaming GET A BANSHEE IN THERE!!! Infestors? Few banshees --> queens are sufficient. Many banshees --> infestors. | ||
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Green_25
Great Britain696 Posts
On January 19 2014 23:23 Destructicon wrote: SH are way stronger in mass, splitting them up makes both groups weaker. So are tanks though. On that map, the locusts can get everywhere, if you split your swarmhosts perfectly you would be immune to back attacks. It would obviously be very hard to do, but definitely possible on that map. | ||
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bhfberserk
Canada390 Posts
The risk of using fragile Terran mech units the way Flash does, requires incredible map awareness and knowledge of army movement. The whole game looks like Flash is breaking the tradition WOL mech we know. He seems to overextend his tank line beyond our comfort zone but yet he retains solid formations. One of the main difference in his mech-style lies in the mass vikings. Since the ground/air upgrade are combined. Vikings become the better options to support mech rather than Thors. There are times the vikings kill 9 overlords for free. Vikings + a few thors can zone out mutas harassment entirely. In late game, Vikings + Ravens can protect against mutas. They can also counter Viper tech. I am sure DRG made mistakes. But it was a seriously good game from Flash. I am sure this mech-style will be copied and studied. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 19 2014 23:25 Green_25 wrote: So are tanks though. On that map, the locusts can get everywhere, if you split your swarmhosts perfectly you would be immune to back attacks. It would obviously be very hard to do, but definitely possible on that map. If he splits his SHs flash counterrepairs the PF while amoving the other group of SHs with an unsieged army - or even worse - just moves his army to DRGs bases and it's checkmate. The whole point of Swarm Hosts is that you pin down the Mech army in a sieged position and avoid combats while wearing him down, since you cannot win a real battle. | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51493 Posts
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Swisslink
2956 Posts
On January 19 2014 23:14 Green_25 wrote: You can, but swarmhosts involve less multitask and are easier to use, vipers are hit and miss. Its no surprise zerg prefers the easier play. Vipers are... dead with that amount of Vikings in the air. They're really basically useless at this stage of the game, tbh. Maybe there's some weird kind of timing push with Ultra/Viper (No idea when it should hit, but whatever), but as a long-term gameplan, I don't think it's an option. Especially because you either need to rely on Melee upgrades and therefore survive the midgame with Lings (Which is not possible, if the opponent isn't braindead, imo...) or you'll fight with pretty horrible Ultralisks late game (No Melee upgrades...). Both not too good of a gameplan :-P I don't know... I don't think you can :-/ | ||
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Tchado
Jordan1831 Posts
 some kind of baneling-mutalisk hybird "THE END....JUSTIFIES THE MEANS !!!!" | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
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HomeWorld
Romania903 Posts
On January 19 2014 23:29 bhfberserk wrote: I honestly don't think this style is abusive or imbalance as people claims here. The way Flash mech was incredibly risky. If his tanks are caught unsieged once by the locust, it is GG. If there was a mass mutas transition before Ravens and mass vikings kick in, it would have been GG. If that fungal hit all the vikings, it would have been GG. The risk of using fragile Terran mech units the way Flash does, requires incredible map awareness and knowledge of army movement. The whole game looks like Flash is breaking the tradition WOL mech we know. He seems to overextend his tank line beyond our comfort zone but yet he retains solid formations. One of the main difference in his mech-style lies in the mass vikings. Since the ground/air upgrade are combined. Vikings become the better options to support mech rather than Thors. There are times the vikings kill 9 overlords for free. Vikings + a few thors can zone out mutas harassment entirely. In late game, Vikings + Ravens can protect against mutas. They can also counter Viper tech. I am sure DRG made mistakes. But it was a seriously good game from Flash. I am sure this mech-style will be copied and studied. I agree, Flash took so many risks and it paid off, mostly because DRG was way too passive in the early game and probably his lack of proper scouting. Advice for everyone who says that sky terran is imba or mech is imba, this sole game is not / should not be taken as a reference, it's just a game where DRG played badly/made a lot of tiny but crucial mistakes, so yeah. | ||
Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On January 19 2014 23:48 Darkhoarse wrote: The main point is, MVP sent out DRG instead of Sniper as there ace. Seriously, Sniper against a struggling fan favorite who so many people want to see succeed? It's basically an instant win for Sniper. Which is why Sniper won the first match right | ||
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Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On January 19 2014 23:51 Zealously wrote: Which is why Sniper won the first match right But how much more heartbreaking would it be for Flash to lose in the ace match? Sniper would feed off of that. | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8333 Posts
On January 19 2014 23:53 Darkhoarse wrote: But how much more heartbreaking would it be for Flash to lose in the ace match? Sniper would feed off of that. I dont really understand your next level logic but ace is for clutch player and it reads DRG for MVP, same for Flash (even if BaBy might be arguably better) | ||
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