Sniper vs Flash can go either way Billowy vs MyuNgSiK.. I think MyuNgSiK can win this one. Super vs Zest......... Super doesn't deserve to play after that horrible protoss play in his Code A group. KeeN vs TY will end with TY being victorious.
On January 19 2014 20:50 Dinotramp wrote: I don't understand how more people are upset about CJ losing than are happy about Prime winning. It's Prime ffs!
On January 19 2014 20:50 Dinotramp wrote: I don't understand how more people are upset about CJ losing than are happy about Prime winning. It's Prime ffs!
On January 19 2014 20:50 Dinotramp wrote: I don't understand how more people are upset about CJ losing than are happy about Prime winning. It's Prime ffs!
That's why
If you hate prime you really don't have any heart.
On January 19 2014 20:50 Dinotramp wrote: I don't understand how more people are upset about CJ losing than are happy about Prime winning. It's Prime ffs!
This is kespa country here. Get yourself accustomed with.
While it is botanically a fruit, it is considered a vegetable for culinary purposes (as well as under U.S. customs regulations, see Nix v. Hedden), which has caused some confusion
While it is botanically a fruit, it is considered a vegetable for culinary purposes (as well as under U.S. customs regulations, see Nix v. Hedden), which has caused some confusion
can't believe they had a lawsuit over this lol
They were always debates on this. I'm French so i just go with contradiction :p
On January 19 2014 21:03 Caladan wrote: Q: Can't they afford heating the PL studio or why does everyone, including the fans, wear big warm jackets?
Koreans are cold all the time. ForGG when he went to south france (which is pretty hot) always had his jacket on...Same goes for innovation in germany and in various tournaments.
I guess pro rather be a bit hot than cold, i can remember bly complaining about the cold (when it was like 18 ) at some lan.
I really dislike Mech in TvZ. It's cool to see it from time to time but even with Flashs gigantic advantage this will be a loooooooong game. Almost every TvZ goes to super-lategame :/
Sadly mech is getting more and more popular in Korea ever since the Widow Mine nerf/Tank buff. I'd prefer to watch more 4M but Terrans are losing more and more with 4M and winning more and more with mech
On January 19 2014 21:19 S_SienZ wrote: Divine Retribution for all the sins Sniper committed.
" burn the patch zerg with seeker missiles and bc fire ! the sky shall rain with manner mules ! " - bible of flash , gospel of TvZ , chapter 5 verse 44
On January 19 2014 21:09 Shellshock wrote: damn sniper just getting beat. oh well TvZ is probably Flash's best mu now
you can't be bad at everything
TvZ is the only matchup where you can totally control the pace of the match as Terran. In TvT you have to be reactive to certain opponent openings and compositions. TvP is by far the worst, with only one "correct" choice to make in certain situations, such as vikings vs colossus or ghosts vs HTs. Flash like to march to the beat of his own drums, so naturally TvZ is best for him.
On January 19 2014 21:22 keglu wrote: I don't watch a lot of sc2 recently but is there a way for Zerg to deal with this late game Terran composition?
yes. Similar to what Sniper did, but no Broodlords and 50spores/spines around the swarm hosts. Then you start pulling units in 1by1 with Vipers, try to hit the money fungals and in the end the guy with more money wins.
On January 19 2014 21:21 Insoleet wrote: Did we ever saw a zerg beating a air switch in ZvT ?
Well, its not as if Flash totally outplayed Sniper, but I wonder if double upgrade ground/air was necessary for mech to work.
I really like it for banshee mech with midgame timings, that stuff is really cool IMO. But the late game raven sky terran is stupidly powerful, there's nothing zerg can do and it should be looked at tbh.
By looked at I mean buff corruptors, they just suck. Zerg shouldn't have to build five million spores to fight sky terran or sky toss.
On January 19 2014 21:22 keglu wrote: I don't watch a lot of sc2 recently but is there a way for Zerg to deal with this late game Terran composition?
yes. Similar to what Sniper did, but no Broodlords and 50spores/spines around the swarm hosts. Then you start pulling units in 1by1 with Vipers, try to hit the money fungals and in the end the guy with more money wins.
Sounds boring... Sad part is that with bio mine imo being not good enough anymore we can see more and more of these kind of games. And TvZ was imo best matchup, very action packed.
Can anyone tell me, do the teams submit their player selections "anonymously" each week? Or do the alternate a home and away type scenario where one submits first and the other gets to pick the matchup?
On January 19 2014 21:47 BuddhaMonk wrote: Can anyone tell me, do the teams submit their player selections "anonymously" each week? Or do the alternate a home and away type scenario where one submits first and the other gets to pick the matchup?
On January 19 2014 21:47 BuddhaMonk wrote: Can anyone tell me, do the teams submit their player selections "anonymously" each week? Or do the alternate a home and away type scenario where one submits first and the other gets to pick the matchup?
Both get the maps, submit their players, then the lineups are revealed to all.
"And here in the wilderness of PvProleague, we observe the Terran is his natural habitat. A rare sight in these parts of the world, on the brink of extinction fighting for survival. TvT being one of the oldest and historic matchups, it's only a matter of time before we wave goodbye forever"
On January 19 2014 21:47 BuddhaMonk wrote: Can anyone tell me, do the teams submit their player selections "anonymously" each week? Or do the alternate a home and away type scenario where one submits first and the other gets to pick the matchup?
Anonymously. The coach pick only the maps each player will play.
On January 19 2014 22:16 Yello wrote: wtf I though Ty vs Super for sure. Why the hell DRG? And why the hell Flash if Ty is better in TvT and TvP? Did they really expect DRG?
On January 19 2014 22:16 Yello wrote: wtf I though Ty vs Super for sure. Why the hell DRG? And why the hell Flash if Ty is better in TvT and TvP? Did they really expect DRG?
Not sure about flash. DRG imo was sent because he can ZvT very, very well. And KT probably sends flash or TY.
On January 19 2014 22:14 Glorfindel! wrote: So what are Flash, Ty and Marus combined stats for Pro League? :D
19-2
17-2 (5-2, 6-0, 6-0)
Ah, I thought Maru is 8-0 because of FPL stats show W/L 6-0; Ace 2-0. I thought they are separated, but I guess it means 2 of his 6 wins are ace matches.
On January 19 2014 22:18 Seeker wrote: I understand the Flash pick. Flash is the SYMBOL of KT Rolster.
But the DRG pick is very interesting. You normally don't pick a player who's not on the roster for that week as ace. Hmm...
He could have been preparing for Flash for sure all week though assuming he'd be the ace. I guess MVP just trusted the rest of their team to get to the ace match at worst
On January 19 2014 22:29 esdf wrote: if mvp wanted to win they could've just fielded a protoss vs flash.
Hey Anakin! You are supposed to support the team, not destroy it! ^^
I'm supporting, but I can't understand MVP coach. :D Trust me, I'm happy2k, my FPL team is thriving today (aside from minor setback by Super on my anti).
On January 19 2014 22:29 esdf wrote: if mvp wanted to win they could've just fielded a protoss vs flash.
Hey Anakin! You are supposed to support the team, not destroy it! ^^
I'm supporting, but I can't understand MVP coach. :D Trust me, I'm happy2k, my FPL team is thriving today (aside from minor setback by Super on my anti).
i have warned the community about the possibilty that skyterran will be reached too easily with combined upgrade during hots beta, sadly no one cared much :p
And this is why I hate David Kim. Instantly buffing mech instead of waiting for the meta game to develop just saw zerg's lategame air being basically useless vs. 3/3. This is not a balance whine, I'm pretty sure DRG made too many mistakes/Flash played really stellar, but a huge complain about David Kim.
On January 19 2014 22:52 ETisME wrote: i have warned the community about the possibilty that skyterran will be reached too easily with combined upgrade during hots beta, sadly no one cared much :p
SC2 should have games like this more often. It's nice to see someone come back to good strategy and skill rather than some deathball vs deathball or build order losses. Too bad it rarely happens.
On January 19 2014 22:52 ETisME wrote: i have warned the community about the possibilty that skyterran will be reached too easily with combined upgrade during hots beta, sadly no one cared much :p
Yeah, imagine if Flash hadn't thrown away 70 supply army for no reason. He'd have viking raven like 10 mins earlier and it'd been game.
On January 19 2014 22:52 ETisME wrote: i have warned the community about the possibilty that skyterran will be reached too easily with combined upgrade during hots beta, sadly no one cared much :p
Yeah, imagine if Flash hadn't thrown away 70 supply army for no reason. He'd have viking raven like 10 mins earlier and it'd been game.
not that i am complaining about this game though, great game, but skyterran needs to be a little harder to get imo. imagine more tank run bys etc
On January 19 2014 22:52 ETisME wrote: i have warned the community about the possibilty that skyterran will be reached too easily with combined upgrade during hots beta, sadly no one cared much :p
A lot of terrans complained about queen buff in WoL.
The buff resulted in a year era of BL / Infestor.
Tell me when you are seeing mech every game and I will actually take you seriously.
On January 19 2014 22:53 fmod wrote: SC2 should have games like this more often. It's nice to see someone come back to good strategy and skill rather than some deathball vs deathball or build order losses. Too bad it rarely happens.
On January 19 2014 22:52 boxerfred wrote: And this is why I hate David Kim. Instantly buffing mech instead of waiting for the meta game to develop just saw zerg's lategame air being basically useless vs. 3/3. This is not a balance whine, I'm pretty sure DRG made too many mistakes/Flash played really stellar, but a huge complain about David Kim.
upgrades are to important in Sc2. Its not about 3/3 its about the Zerg having 0/0 air. No reason to build something if its 2 upgrade levels behind. The match started well, but the last bit was horrible to watch for me, bad decision after bad decision in my eyes.
Holy shit best mech vs zerg game ever? Sick tank usage by Flash. Of course, he was really helped by the map, but still that was another level. That kind of mech is really fun to watch, just no mass raven and we are good.
Flash should just never play bio again in sc2, he sucks at it. Go back to your roots son.
On January 19 2014 22:52 boxerfred wrote: And this is why I hate David Kim. Instantly buffing mech instead of waiting for the meta game to develop just saw zerg's lategame air being basically useless vs. 3/3. This is not a balance whine, I'm pretty sure DRG made too many mistakes/Flash played really stellar, but a huge complain about David Kim.
upgrades are to important in Sc2. Its not about 3/3 its about the Zerg having 0/0 air. No reason to build something if its 2 upgrade levels behind. The match started well, but the last bit was horrible to watch for me, bad decision after bad decision in my eyes.
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
On January 19 2014 22:52 ETisME wrote: i have warned the community about the possibilty that skyterran will be reached too easily with combined upgrade during hots beta, sadly no one cared much :p
A lot of terrans complained about queen buff in WoL.
The buff resulted in a year era of BL / Infestor.
Tell me when you are seeing mech every game and I will actually take you seriously.
except there is no counter to skyterran for zerg while mvp figured out raven transition at the end of wol. (it's almost impossible to buy enough time but there is still a possible stage of that transiiton possible while not possible for zerg to beat that deathball) I was mainly arguing for whether an undefeatable deathball should exist in sc2
On January 19 2014 22:52 boxerfred wrote: And this is why I hate David Kim. Instantly buffing mech instead of waiting for the meta game to develop just saw zerg's lategame air being basically useless vs. 3/3. This is not a balance whine, I'm pretty sure DRG made too many mistakes/Flash played really stellar, but a huge complain about David Kim.
upgrades are to important in Sc2. Its not about 3/3 its about the Zerg having 0/0 air. No reason to build something if its 2 upgrade levels behind. The match started well, but the last bit was horrible to watch for me, bad decision after bad decision in my eyes.
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
Nothing is lamer than SW. I play Zerg yes
Maybe Mass Void Ray... No i have to hand it to swarm hosts
On January 19 2014 22:53 fmod wrote: SC2 should have games like this more often. It's nice to see someone come back to good strategy and skill rather than some deathball vs deathball or build order losses. Too bad it rarely happens.
On January 19 2014 22:53 fmod wrote: SC2 should have games like this more often. It's nice to see someone come back to good strategy and skill rather than some deathball vs deathball or build order losses. Too bad it rarely happens.
Yeah. If we had these games more often, SC2 would be growing and not starving like it does atm. TvZ and TvT are really nice match ups to watch.
Only problem is Protoss with its death ball mechanics, game play wise.
On January 19 2014 22:53 fmod wrote: SC2 should have games like this more often. It's nice to see someone come back to good strategy and skill rather than some deathball vs deathball or build order losses. Too bad it rarely happens.
I agree, everyone should play terran.
what?
actually thats brilliant, would stop all balance whining right there.
On January 19 2014 22:56 Green_25 wrote: Holy shit best mech vs zerg game ever? Sick tank usage by Flash. Of course, he was really helped by the map, but still that was another level. That kind of mech is really fun to watch, just no mass raven and we are good.
Flash should just never play bio again in sc2, he sucks at it. Go back to your roots son.
On January 19 2014 22:52 ETisME wrote: i have warned the community about the possibilty that skyterran will be reached too easily with combined upgrade during hots beta, sadly no one cared much :p
Yeah, imagine if Flash hadn't thrown away 70 supply army for no reason. He'd have viking raven like 10 mins earlier and it'd been game.
not that i am complaining about this game though, great game, but skyterran needs to be a little harder to get imo. imagine more tank run bys etc
It is hard to get into sky terran in general, however it works exceptionally well on that map because you can secure 5 bases easily. It has more to do with the map being crap than anything else.
Way too much unneeded DRG bashing, he played really well most of the game, but what trully killed him was letting the tank runbys do so much damage, he should have kept his 10 mutas alive and used them to shut down harass. Flash couldn't afford to do runbys and also keep his vikings around those runbys.
On January 19 2014 22:53 fmod wrote: SC2 should have games like this more often. It's nice to see someone come back to good strategy and skill rather than some deathball vs deathball or build order losses. Too bad it rarely happens.
Yeah. If we had these games more often, SC2 would be growing and not starving like it does atm. TvZ and TvT are really nice match ups to watch.
Only problem is Protoss with its death ball mechanics, game play wise.
Spectator wise you mean. Gameplay wise protoss is OKish, spectator wise it's mostly shit. Source: I am a Protoss player and Protoss fan.
On January 19 2014 22:56 Green_25 wrote: Holy shit best mech vs zerg game ever? Sick tank usage by Flash. Of course, he was really helped by the map, but still that was another level. That kind of mech is really fun to watch, just no mass raven and we are good.
Flash should just never play bio again in sc2, he sucks at it. Go back to your roots son.
Mvp
Good point, MVP is pretty good. But his mechanics aren't as good as Flash, unfortunately.
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
On January 19 2014 22:52 ETisME wrote: i have warned the community about the possibilty that skyterran will be reached too easily with combined upgrade during hots beta, sadly no one cared much :p
A lot of terrans complained about queen buff in WoL.
The buff resulted in a year era of BL / Infestor.
Tell me when you are seeing mech every game and I will actually take you seriously.
except there is no counter to skyterran for zerg while mvp figured out raven transition at the end of wol. (it's almost impossible to buy enough time but there is still a possible stage of that transiiton possible while not possible for zerg to beat that deathball) I was mainly arguing for whether an undefeatable deathball should exist in sc2
On January 19 2014 22:56 Green_25 wrote: Holy shit best mech vs zerg game ever? Sick tank usage by Flash. Of course, he was really helped by the map, but still that was another level. That kind of mech is really fun to watch, just no mass raven and we are good.
Flash should just never play bio again in sc2, he sucks at it. Go back to your roots son.
On January 19 2014 22:56 Green_25 wrote: Holy shit best mech vs zerg game ever? Sick tank usage by Flash. Of course, he was really helped by the map, but still that was another level. That kind of mech is really fun to watch, just no mass raven and we are good.
Flash should just never play bio again in sc2, he sucks at it. Go back to your roots son.
Mvp
Good point, MVP is pretty good. But his mechanics aren't as good as Flash, unfortunately.
I mean he has produce some mech games that are better than this.
On January 19 2014 22:53 fmod wrote: SC2 should have games like this more often. It's nice to see someone come back to good strategy and skill rather than some deathball vs deathball or build order losses. Too bad it rarely happens.
Yeah. If we had these games more often, SC2 would be growing and not starving like it does atm. TvZ and TvT are really nice match ups to watch.
Only problem is Protoss with its death ball mechanics, game play wise.
Spectator wise you mean. Gameplay wise protoss is OKish, spectator wise it's mostly shit. Source: I am a Protoss player and Protoss fan.
I like cheesy all-in style Protoss as a spectator, its entertaining and keeps things fresh. Deathball Protoss sucks pretty hard as a spectator though, the battles are all about composition usually.
On January 19 2014 22:52 boxerfred wrote: And this is why I hate David Kim. Instantly buffing mech instead of waiting for the meta game to develop just saw zerg's lategame air being basically useless vs. 3/3. This is not a balance whine, I'm pretty sure DRG made too many mistakes/Flash played really stellar, but a huge complain about David Kim.
upgrades are to important in Sc2. Its not about 3/3 its about the Zerg having 0/0 air. No reason to build something if its 2 upgrade levels behind. The match started well, but the last bit was horrible to watch for me, bad decision after bad decision in my eyes.
Whatelse should DRG build against the Vikings? You know... Zerg doesn't have that much of a choice to fight an air army :-?
The game was great, one of the more entertaining mech games I've seen so far. But I REALLY hope, mech won't be the standard too soon, Swarmhosts are normally insanely boring to watch and to use, but beside Swarmhosts, Zerg has no answer to mech :-/
On January 19 2014 22:52 ETisME wrote: i have warned the community about the possibilty that skyterran will be reached too easily with combined upgrade during hots beta, sadly no one cared much :p
A lot of terrans complained about queen buff in WoL.
The buff resulted in a year era of BL / Infestor.
Tell me when you are seeing mech every game and I will actually take you seriously.
except there is no counter to skyterran for zerg while mvp figured out raven transition at the end of wol. (it's almost impossible to buy enough time but there is still a possible stage of that transiiton possible while not possible for zerg to beat that deathball) I was mainly arguing for whether an undefeatable deathball should exist in sc2
Just wait for Symbol to play.
i would really really love a buff to overlord buff. imagine terran barely hanging on while transitioning and zerg kept flooding roaches etc to break the defense and eventually loses. more mid game harassment strategy from zerg would be really awesome
was worried for flash there for a sec from those swarmhosts swtching command center targets trying to kill them. i thought flash could only defend one area. then he attacked with tanks run bys. it's like how he does it in broodwar tvp attacking different bases with tanks.
On January 19 2014 22:56 Green_25 wrote: Holy shit best mech vs zerg game ever? Sick tank usage by Flash. Of course, he was really helped by the map, but still that was another level. That kind of mech is really fun to watch, just no mass raven and we are good.
Flash should just never play bio again in sc2, he sucks at it. Go back to your roots son.
So you think Flash should be the Fantasy of SC2?
He just looks more comfortable playing that style. Like he's enjoying it more.
I think a big problem for him has been motivation, he doesn't like sc2 bio.
On January 19 2014 22:52 ETisME wrote: i have warned the community about the possibilty that skyterran will be reached too easily with combined upgrade during hots beta, sadly no one cared much :p
A lot of terrans complained about queen buff in WoL.
The buff resulted in a year era of BL / Infestor.
Tell me when you are seeing mech every game and I will actually take you seriously.
except there is no counter to skyterran for zerg while mvp figured out raven transition at the end of wol. (it's almost impossible to buy enough time but there is still a possible stage of that transiiton possible while not possible for zerg to beat that deathball) I was mainly arguing for whether an undefeatable deathball should exist in sc2
... figured out ? Being able to do it on one map of the pool isn't "figured out".
On January 19 2014 22:53 fmod wrote: SC2 should have games like this more often. It's nice to see someone come back to good strategy and skill rather than some deathball vs deathball or build order losses. Too bad it rarely happens.
I agree, everyone should play terran.
what?
actually thats brilliant, would stop all balance whining right there.
And every tournament would have games like Innovation vs Taeja.
On January 19 2014 23:02 Levistus wrote: was worried for flash there for a sec from those swarmhosts swtching command center targets trying to kill them. i thought flash could only defend one area. then he attacked with tanks run bys. it's like how he does it in broodwar tvp attacking different bases with tanks.
Yeah. That was brilliant from DRG. Flash was on top of it though. But one mistake could have make him lose both. They really played great. I wouldn't even be mad if DRG won... (well... less mad than usual).
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
On January 19 2014 22:52 boxerfred wrote: And this is why I hate David Kim. Instantly buffing mech instead of waiting for the meta game to develop just saw zerg's lategame air being basically useless vs. 3/3. This is not a balance whine, I'm pretty sure DRG made too many mistakes/Flash played really stellar, but a huge complain about David Kim.
DRG was one chain fungal away from killing those vikings but failed miserably.
On January 19 2014 22:52 ETisME wrote: i have warned the community about the possibilty that skyterran will be reached too easily with combined upgrade during hots beta, sadly no one cared much :p
A lot of terrans complained about queen buff in WoL.
The buff resulted in a year era of BL / Infestor.
Tell me when you are seeing mech every game and I will actually take you seriously.
except there is no counter to skyterran for zerg while mvp figured out raven transition at the end of wol. (it's almost impossible to buy enough time but there is still a possible stage of that transiiton possible while not possible for zerg to beat that deathball) I was mainly arguing for whether an undefeatable deathball should exist in sc2
... figured out ? Being able to do it on one map of the pool isn't "figured out".
it's been here since wol actually. just that games never got there often on tournament games and even if you transition into sky, you wouldn't have 3/3 right away and still have a good timing widow for zerg to bust you down. but if you watch streams, you know it happens
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
Just no.
I was kind of surprised of the range of swarmhost on this map. It seems bigger than it is really.
On January 19 2014 22:52 boxerfred wrote: And this is why I hate David Kim. Instantly buffing mech instead of waiting for the meta game to develop just saw zerg's lategame air being basically useless vs. 3/3. This is not a balance whine, I'm pretty sure DRG made too many mistakes/Flash played really stellar, but a huge complain about David Kim.
DRG was one chain fungal away from killing those vikings but failed miserably.
Tbf he may have actually ran out of energy, we couldn't tell. Happens more often than you'd think, zergs spam the fungals in that situation out of exitement.
On January 19 2014 22:52 ETisME wrote: i have warned the community about the possibilty that skyterran will be reached too easily with combined upgrade during hots beta, sadly no one cared much :p
A lot of terrans complained about queen buff in WoL.
The buff resulted in a year era of BL / Infestor.
Tell me when you are seeing mech every game and I will actually take you seriously.
except there is no counter to skyterran for zerg while mvp figured out raven transition at the end of wol. (it's almost impossible to buy enough time but there is still a possible stage of that transiiton possible while not possible for zerg to beat that deathball) I was mainly arguing for whether an undefeatable deathball should exist in sc2
... figured out ? Being able to do it on one map of the pool isn't "figured out".
it's been here since wol actually. just that games never got there and even if you transition into sky, you wouldn't have 3/3 right away and still have a good timing widow for zerg to bust you down.
Yes, but you couldn't transition into sky terran in WoL because you would get gangbanged before. There was that map (metalopolis? i don't remember the name, the huge ass splitmap with 5 bases on each side) were you COULD make it work reliabily, but you are speaking about IEM cologne (were mvp did it for the first time against Nestea) and nothing changed in the match up anyways in the other maps until HotS was released, which was plenty of months later (almost half year ?)
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
Just no.
Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e
While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH.
On January 19 2014 22:52 boxerfred wrote: And this is why I hate David Kim. Instantly buffing mech instead of waiting for the meta game to develop just saw zerg's lategame air being basically useless vs. 3/3. This is not a balance whine, I'm pretty sure DRG made too many mistakes/Flash played really stellar, but a huge complain about David Kim.
upgrades are to important in Sc2. Its not about 3/3 its about the Zerg having 0/0 air. No reason to build something if its 2 upgrade levels behind. The match started well, but the last bit was horrible to watch for me, bad decision after bad decision in my eyes.
Whatelse should DRG build against the Vikings? You know... Zerg doesn't have that much of a choice to fight an air army :-?
The game was great, one of the more entertaining mech games I've seen so far. But I REALLY hope, mech won't be the standard too soon, Swarmhosts are normally insanely boring to watch and to use, but beside Swarmhosts, Zerg has no answer to mech :-/
Can't you work some magic with ultras and vipers? Cast some clouds and unleash the stampede, you know. Yoink a little.
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
Just no.
Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e
While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH.
Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran.
On January 19 2014 22:52 boxerfred wrote: And this is why I hate David Kim. Instantly buffing mech instead of waiting for the meta game to develop just saw zerg's lategame air being basically useless vs. 3/3. This is not a balance whine, I'm pretty sure DRG made too many mistakes/Flash played really stellar, but a huge complain about David Kim.
upgrades are to important in Sc2. Its not about 3/3 its about the Zerg having 0/0 air. No reason to build something if its 2 upgrade levels behind. The match started well, but the last bit was horrible to watch for me, bad decision after bad decision in my eyes.
Whatelse should DRG build against the Vikings? You know... Zerg doesn't have that much of a choice to fight an air army :-?
The game was great, one of the more entertaining mech games I've seen so far. But I REALLY hope, mech won't be the standard too soon, Swarmhosts are normally insanely boring to watch and to use, but beside Swarmhosts, Zerg has no answer to mech :-/
Can't you work some magic with ultras and vipers? Cast some clouds and unleash the stampede, you know. Yoink a little.
You can, but swarmhosts involve less multitask and are easier to use, vipers are hit and miss. Its no surprise zerg prefers the easier play.
On January 19 2014 22:52 ETisME wrote: i have warned the community about the possibilty that skyterran will be reached too easily with combined upgrade during hots beta, sadly no one cared much :p
A lot of terrans complained about queen buff in WoL.
The buff resulted in a year era of BL / Infestor.
Tell me when you are seeing mech every game and I will actually take you seriously.
except there is no counter to skyterran for zerg while mvp figured out raven transition at the end of wol. (it's almost impossible to buy enough time but there is still a possible stage of that transiiton possible while not possible for zerg to beat that deathball) I was mainly arguing for whether an undefeatable deathball should exist in sc2
... figured out ? Being able to do it on one map of the pool isn't "figured out".
it's been here since wol actually. just that games never got there and even if you transition into sky, you wouldn't have 3/3 right away and still have a good timing widow for zerg to bust you down.
Yes, but you couldn't transition into sky terran in WoL because you would get gangbanged before. There was that map (metalopolis? i don't remember the name, the huge ass splitmap with 5 bases on each side) were you COULD make it work reliabily, but you are speaking about IEM cologne (were mvp did it for the first time against Nestea) and nothing changed in the match up anyways in the other maps until HotS was released, which was plenty of months later (almost half year ?)
I am not disagreeing with you. they were rare because of lack of combined upgrade and a billion things they would die when they try transition. but i am saying this deathball is pretty undefeatable when you got it out, be it wol or hots. I have said zerg lacks an effective way to deal with this deathball. the only thing that make it balanced is how hard it is to get it and hots make it all easier with the combined upgrade makes terran much safer against a lot of zerg's lair strategies.
like i editted, if you watched mech terran stream, this composition does come up and zerg just lack a way to deal with it. raven buff, banshee buff etc.
The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases. Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base. Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better.
Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings.
Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him.
I think flash could of killed that swarmhost army if he made banshees and cut down on the vikings at one point. There were only three queens and no AA for DRG. Instead he sac all his vikings going for overlords? I was screaming GET A BANSHEE IN THERE!!!
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
Just no.
Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e
While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH.
Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran.
On January 19 2014 23:16 Tyrhanius wrote: The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases. Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base. Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better.
Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings.
Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him.
They could try to challenge for air superiority, or abuse mech's immobility by doing multi-pronged attacks. You should have seen how flash was struggling to constantly un-siege and re-siege his tanks in different locations against DRG. DRG was close to winning at many moments; he played quite well, but Flash was just better.
On January 19 2014 23:16 Tyrhanius wrote: The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases. Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base. Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better.
Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings.
Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him.
Why can't DRG split up his swarmhosts to defend in the same way Flash split up his tanks? The locusts could travel half the map before dieing, so I don't think it was necessarily favored for Flash.
DRG just got outplayed here imo, he didn't play badly but made a few mistakes and was out-multitasked.
On January 19 2014 23:16 Tyrhanius wrote: The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases. Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base. Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better.
Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings.
Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him.
Why can't DRG split up his swarmhosts to defend in the same way Flash split up his tanks? The locusts could travel half the map before dieing, so I don't think it was necessarily favored for Flash.
DRG just got outplayed here imo, he didn't play badly but made a few mistakes and was out-multitasked.
SH are way stronger in mass, splitting them up makes both groups weaker.
On January 19 2014 23:16 Tyrhanius wrote: The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases. Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base. Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better.
Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings.
Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him.
They could try to challenge for air superiority, or abuse mech's immobility by doing multi-pronged attacks. You should have seen how flash was struggling to constantly un-siege and re-siege his tanks in different locations against DRG. DRG was close to winning at many moments; he played quite well, but Flash was just better.
SH are also super immobile and trying to get air dominance would have only worked if he had killed everything with fungals. Terran air is super scary.
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
Just no.
Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e
While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH.
Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran.
Lets just say both sides are problematic.
Therefore, TvZ is balanced!
No, sky terran is imbalanced, noone is arguing against that. I'd like to see zerg get a late-game anti-air buff, and I'm terran.
On January 19 2014 22:52 boxerfred wrote: And this is why I hate David Kim. Instantly buffing mech instead of waiting for the meta game to develop just saw zerg's lategame air being basically useless vs. 3/3. This is not a balance whine, I'm pretty sure DRG made too many mistakes/Flash played really stellar, but a huge complain about David Kim.
upgrades are to important in Sc2. Its not about 3/3 its about the Zerg having 0/0 air. No reason to build something if its 2 upgrade levels behind. The match started well, but the last bit was horrible to watch for me, bad decision after bad decision in my eyes.
Whatelse should DRG build against the Vikings? You know... Zerg doesn't have that much of a choice to fight an air army :-?
The game was great, one of the more entertaining mech games I've seen so far. But I REALLY hope, mech won't be the standard too soon, Swarmhosts are normally insanely boring to watch and to use, but beside Swarmhosts, Zerg has no answer to mech :-/
Can't you work some magic with ultras and vipers? Cast some clouds and unleash the stampede, you know. Yoink a little.
Not with that many Vikings in the air. You won't get your Vipers near the tanks. Also switching into melee and costly ultras from the (in the midgame) required range composition usually does not equate having any useful amount of them.
On January 19 2014 23:19 zeratul_jf wrote: I think flash could of killed that swarmhost army if he made banshees and cut down on the vikings at one point. There were only three queens and no AA for DRG. Instead he sac all his vikings going for overlords? I was screaming GET A BANSHEE IN THERE!!!
Infestors? Few banshees --> queens are sufficient. Many banshees --> infestors.
On January 19 2014 23:16 Tyrhanius wrote: The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases. Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base. Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better.
Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings.
Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him.
Why can't DRG split up his swarmhosts to defend in the same way Flash split up his tanks? The locusts could travel half the map before dieing, so I don't think it was necessarily favored for Flash.
DRG just got outplayed here imo, he didn't play badly but made a few mistakes and was out-multitasked.
SH are way stronger in mass, splitting them up makes both groups weaker.
So are tanks though.
On that map, the locusts can get everywhere, if you split your swarmhosts perfectly you would be immune to back attacks.
It would obviously be very hard to do, but definitely possible on that map.
I honestly don't think this style is abusive or imbalance as people claims here. The way Flash mech was incredibly risky. If his tanks are caught unsieged once by the locust, it is GG. If there was a mass mutas transition before Ravens and mass vikings kick in, it would have been GG. If that fungal hit all the vikings, it would have been GG.
The risk of using fragile Terran mech units the way Flash does, requires incredible map awareness and knowledge of army movement. The whole game looks like Flash is breaking the tradition WOL mech we know. He seems to overextend his tank line beyond our comfort zone but yet he retains solid formations.
One of the main difference in his mech-style lies in the mass vikings. Since the ground/air upgrade are combined. Vikings become the better options to support mech rather than Thors. There are times the vikings kill 9 overlords for free.
Vikings + a few thors can zone out mutas harassment entirely. In late game, Vikings + Ravens can protect against mutas. They can also counter Viper tech.
I am sure DRG made mistakes. But it was a seriously good game from Flash. I am sure this mech-style will be copied and studied.
On January 19 2014 23:16 Tyrhanius wrote: The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases. Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base. Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better.
Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings.
Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him.
Why can't DRG split up his swarmhosts to defend in the same way Flash split up his tanks? The locusts could travel half the map before dieing, so I don't think it was necessarily favored for Flash.
DRG just got outplayed here imo, he didn't play badly but made a few mistakes and was out-multitasked.
SH are way stronger in mass, splitting them up makes both groups weaker.
So are tanks though.
On that map, the locusts can get everywhere, if you split your swarmhosts perfectly you would be immune to back attacks.
It would obviously be very hard to do, but definitely possible on that map.
If he splits his SHs flash counterrepairs the PF while amoving the other group of SHs with an unsieged army - or even worse - just moves his army to DRGs bases and it's checkmate.
The whole point of Swarm Hosts is that you pin down the Mech army in a sieged position and avoid combats while wearing him down, since you cannot win a real battle.
On January 19 2014 22:52 boxerfred wrote: And this is why I hate David Kim. Instantly buffing mech instead of waiting for the meta game to develop just saw zerg's lategame air being basically useless vs. 3/3. This is not a balance whine, I'm pretty sure DRG made too many mistakes/Flash played really stellar, but a huge complain about David Kim.
upgrades are to important in Sc2. Its not about 3/3 its about the Zerg having 0/0 air. No reason to build something if its 2 upgrade levels behind. The match started well, but the last bit was horrible to watch for me, bad decision after bad decision in my eyes.
Whatelse should DRG build against the Vikings? You know... Zerg doesn't have that much of a choice to fight an air army :-?
The game was great, one of the more entertaining mech games I've seen so far. But I REALLY hope, mech won't be the standard too soon, Swarmhosts are normally insanely boring to watch and to use, but beside Swarmhosts, Zerg has no answer to mech :-/
Can't you work some magic with ultras and vipers? Cast some clouds and unleash the stampede, you know. Yoink a little.
You can, but swarmhosts involve less multitask and are easier to use, vipers are hit and miss. Its no surprise zerg prefers the easier play.
Vipers are... dead with that amount of Vikings in the air. They're really basically useless at this stage of the game, tbh. Maybe there's some weird kind of timing push with Ultra/Viper (No idea when it should hit, but whatever), but as a long-term gameplan, I don't think it's an option. Especially because you either need to rely on Melee upgrades and therefore survive the midgame with Lings (Which is not possible, if the opponent isn't braindead, imo...) or you'll fight with pretty horrible Ultralisks late game (No Melee upgrades...). Both not too good of a gameplan :-P I don't know... I don't think you can :-/
The main point is, MVP sent out DRG instead of Sniper as there ace. Seriously, Sniper against a struggling fan favorite who so many people want to see succeed? It's basically an instant win for Sniper.
On January 19 2014 23:29 bhfberserk wrote: I honestly don't think this style is abusive or imbalance as people claims here. The way Flash mech was incredibly risky. If his tanks are caught unsieged once by the locust, it is GG. If there was a mass mutas transition before Ravens and mass vikings kick in, it would have been GG. If that fungal hit all the vikings, it would have been GG.
The risk of using fragile Terran mech units the way Flash does, requires incredible map awareness and knowledge of army movement. The whole game looks like Flash is breaking the tradition WOL mech we know. He seems to overextend his tank line beyond our comfort zone but yet he retains solid formations.
One of the main difference in his mech-style lies in the mass vikings. Since the ground/air upgrade are combined. Vikings become the better options to support mech rather than Thors. There are times the vikings kill 9 overlords for free.
Vikings + a few thors can zone out mutas harassment entirely. In late game, Vikings + Ravens can protect against mutas. They can also counter Viper tech.
I am sure DRG made mistakes. But it was a seriously good game from Flash. I am sure this mech-style will be copied and studied.
I agree, Flash took so many risks and it paid off, mostly because DRG was way too passive in the early game and probably his lack of proper scouting. Advice for everyone who says that sky terran is imba or mech is imba, this sole game is not / should not be taken as a reference, it's just a game where DRG played badly/made a lot of tiny but crucial mistakes, so yeah.
On January 19 2014 23:48 Darkhoarse wrote: The main point is, MVP sent out DRG instead of Sniper as there ace. Seriously, Sniper against a struggling fan favorite who so many people want to see succeed? It's basically an instant win for Sniper.
On January 19 2014 23:48 Darkhoarse wrote: The main point is, MVP sent out DRG instead of Sniper as there ace. Seriously, Sniper against a struggling fan favorite who so many people want to see succeed? It's basically an instant win for Sniper.
Which is why Sniper won the first match right
But how much more heartbreaking would it be for Flash to lose in the ace match? Sniper would feed off of that.
On January 19 2014 23:48 Darkhoarse wrote: The main point is, MVP sent out DRG instead of Sniper as there ace. Seriously, Sniper against a struggling fan favorite who so many people want to see succeed? It's basically an instant win for Sniper.
Which is why Sniper won the first match right
But how much more heartbreaking would it be for Flash to lose in the ace match? Sniper would feed off of that.
I dont really understand your next level logic but ace is for clutch player and it reads DRG for MVP, same for Flash (even if BaBy might be arguably better)
On January 19 2014 23:16 Tyrhanius wrote: The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases. Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base. Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better.
Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings.
Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him.
Why can't DRG split up his swarmhosts to defend in the same way Flash split up his tanks? The locusts could travel half the map before dieing, so I don't think it was necessarily favored for Flash.
DRG just got outplayed here imo, he didn't play badly but made a few mistakes and was out-multitasked.
You have seen the whole locust army + infested terran don't even kill a PF repair with 3-4 tank. Flash save his base nearly just whith repear (you maybe haven"t noticed DRG has been mobile with his SH, attacking different base at each wave). So i don't think spitting SH is a good move while all have done no dmg.
Also SH are not a real range unit, you can't place a few of them at some good spot and kill a free expand. On the other hand, the map allow 3-4 tank to shoot hatch + worker, completly deny this. And the ground distance to reach the tank over the cliff is so huge that the time you manage to get them, the domage is done.
On January 19 2014 23:16 Tyrhanius wrote: The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases. Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base. Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better.
Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings.
Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him.
Why can't DRG split up his swarmhosts to defend in the same way Flash split up his tanks? The locusts could travel half the map before dieing, so I don't think it was necessarily favored for Flash.
DRG just got outplayed here imo, he didn't play badly but made a few mistakes and was out-multitasked.
SH are way stronger in mass, splitting them up makes both groups weaker.
So are tanks though.
On that map, the locusts can get everywhere, if you split your swarmhosts perfectly you would be immune to back attacks.
It would obviously be very hard to do, but definitely possible on that map.
If he splits his SHs flash counterrepairs the PF while amoving the other group of SHs with an unsieged army - or even worse - just moves his army to DRGs bases and it's checkmate.
The whole point of Swarm Hosts is that you pin down the Mech army in a sieged position and avoid combats while wearing him down, since you cannot win a real battle.
I get what you are saying, but DRG had so many swarm hosts it would've been possible imo. Repairing PFs won't work against someone of DRG's skill, just target scvs/mules, constantly switching from one side of the map to the other, eventually the terran will get worn down being less cost efficient.
You can't amove swarm hosts successfully unless the zerg isn't paying attention, the style relies on creep spread and map vision. Just spawn locusts, retreat, regroup etc.
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
Just no.
Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e
While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH.
Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran.
... which exists as a reaction to the Terran going mech. The Terran starts it all by going mech, that's just a fact :-P
On January 19 2014 23:16 Tyrhanius wrote: The things is also both DRG and Sniper were starved out cause tank can take abusive position on some zerg bases. Sniper can't take more than 3-4 bases, and vs DRG the tank have denied two mining base. Flash on the other hand can PF, take air base, make tone of CC, sacrify worker. If zerg had a similar eco, zerg would have built tone of spore/spine/more infestor and defend better.
Honestly in these siege positions, there is nothing Zerg can have done to defend (except prevent Terran from reaching it). All ground army is countered by tank, and the position is a narrow choke where locust are clumbing, and viper and BL would have being destroy by vikings.
Ofc good job to flash to manage to take this spot and play agressive instead of playing passive, but the map cleary favored him.
Why can't DRG split up his swarmhosts to defend in the same way Flash split up his tanks? The locusts could travel half the map before dieing, so I don't think it was necessarily favored for Flash.
DRG just got outplayed here imo, he didn't play badly but made a few mistakes and was out-multitasked.
You have seen the whole locust army + infested terran don't even kill a PF repair with 3-4 tank. Flash save his base nearly just whith repear (you maybe haven"t noticed DRG has been mobile with his SH, attacking different base at each wave). So i don't think spitting SH is a good move while all have done no dmg.
Also SH are not a real range unit, you can't place a few of them at some good spot and kill a free expand. On the other hand, the map allow 3-4 tank to shoot hatch + worker, completly deny this. And the ground distance to reach the tank over the cliff is so huge that the time you manage to get them, the domage is done.
The point of swarm hosts is that if used correctly they are free damage no matter what, unless the terran has PDD free damage is going to occur. Even if they don't kill the PF, repair costs money, you target scvs, etc. Terran loses units here and there always.
I get what you are saying about splitting them up, but when you get 30+ as DRG had its certainly possible. No offense, but I think a lot of zergs lack creativity with swarm hosts, they are potentially way more powerful. Most terrans would say that the way Flash used his tanks this game was suicide, but it worked here, I think zerg can do the same with swarm hosts. Its just really apm intensive.
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
Just no.
Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e
While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH.
Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran.
... which exists as a reaction to the Terran going mech. The Terran starts it all by going mech, that's just a fact :-P
The true reaction to mech should always be to kill them during the midgame, as it was in BW. However, mech shoudn't be AS strong as it is late game TvZ, I admit. Ravens are pretty dumb.
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
Just no.
Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e
While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH.
Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran.
... which exists as a reaction to the Terran going mech. The Terran starts it all by going mech, that's just a fact :-P
The true reaction to mech should always be to kill them during the midgame, as it was in BW. However, mech shoudn't be AS strong as it is late game TvZ, I admit. Ravens are pretty dumb.
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
Just no.
Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e
While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH.
Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran.
... which exists as a reaction to the Terran going mech. The Terran starts it all by going mech, that's just a fact :-P
The true reaction to mech should always be to kill them during the midgame, as it was in BW. However, mech shoudn't be AS strong as it is late game TvZ, I admit. Ravens are pretty dumb.
you mean sentry/immortal balance?
I mean if the meching terran becomes secure on 4 base with 200/200 he should have an advantage, but not an unbeatable one. And it should be very hard to get there.
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
Just no.
Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e
While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH.
Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran.
... which exists as a reaction to the Terran going mech. The Terran starts it all by going mech, that's just a fact :-P
The true reaction to mech should always be to kill them during the midgame, as it was in BW. However, mech shoudn't be AS strong as it is late game TvZ, I admit. Ravens are pretty dumb.
you mean sentry/immortal balance?
I mean if the meching terran becomes secure on 4 base with 200/200 he should have an advantage, but not an unbeatable one. And it should be very hard to get there.
yeah, that's sentry/immortal balance. BL/Infestor was hard to reach because of it, but if you reached it you'd win 7-8/10 times. But Protoss still could win with a vortex.
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
Just no.
Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e
While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH.
Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran.
... which exists as a reaction to the Terran going mech. The Terran starts it all by going mech, that's just a fact :-P
The true reaction to mech should always be to kill them during the midgame, as it was in BW. However, mech shoudn't be AS strong as it is late game TvZ, I admit. Ravens are pretty dumb.
you mean sentry/immortal balance?
I mean if the meching terran becomes secure on 4 base with 200/200 he should have an advantage, but not an unbeatable one. And it should be very hard to get there.
Well, I think here we got the problem. It's not too hard to get there. I mean, of course the Zerg might be able to punish the meching Terran at some stage of the game, but I think most of these timings rely on the assumption that the Zerg knows from the very beginning that the Terran's going for mech. Which is a coinflip and a HUGE risk many players aren't willing to take. I'd agree if it was very hard to reach this 200/200 mech ball on 4 bases, but right now I don't think it is. And therefore: Right now the Zerg are forced to go for Swarmhosts ;-) I have to admit, I have barely ever seen a meching Terran NOT reaching a 200/200 army lately.
Just watched the VoD of the final game and OMG it was so close!
DongRaeGu spammed like 6 fungals on those clumped up vikings, and later on is missing a single one to put the game in his favor. A bit sloppy, but well.
I feel Flash taking his 4th that early shouldn't be unpunished, and with just a small pack of ling-muta it could be denied.
Cool to see Flash do well, sad that DongRaeGu isn't in final boss mode yet. GG.
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
Just no.
Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e
While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH.
Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran.
... which exists as a reaction to the Terran going mech. The Terran starts it all by going mech, that's just a fact :-P
The true reaction to mech should always be to kill them during the midgame, as it was in BW. However, mech shoudn't be AS strong as it is late game TvZ, I admit. Ravens are pretty dumb.
you mean sentry/immortal balance?
I mean if the meching terran becomes secure on 4 base with 200/200 he should have an advantage, but not an unbeatable one. And it should be very hard to get there.
yeah, that's sentry/immortal balance. BL/Infestor was hard to reach because of it, but if you reached it you'd win 7-8/10 times. But Protoss still could win with a vortex.
It wouldn't be as extreme as that, BL/Infestor was winning more than 7-8/10 times too. Anyway in principle I don't have anything wrong with this kind of balance, as long as the way you break them in the midgame doesn't rely on silly cheese, weird build orders, and forcefields, which it wouldn't because its TvZ. There should also be more ways for zerg to win in the late game, rather than just the lucky vortex in wings.
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
Just no.
Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e
While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH.
Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran.
Lets just say both sides are problematic.
Therefore, TvZ is balanced!
No, sky terran is imbalanced, noone is arguing against that. I'd like to see zerg get a late-game anti-air buff, and I'm terran.
Well, DRG would have won if he didn't miss the first chain fungal.
On January 19 2014 22:52 boxerfred wrote: And this is why I hate David Kim. Instantly buffing mech instead of waiting for the meta game to develop just saw zerg's lategame air being basically useless vs. 3/3. This is not a balance whine, I'm pretty sure DRG made too many mistakes/Flash played really stellar, but a huge complain about David Kim.
upgrades are to important in Sc2. Its not about 3/3 its about the Zerg having 0/0 air. No reason to build something if its 2 upgrade levels behind. The match started well, but the last bit was horrible to watch for me, bad decision after bad decision in my eyes.
Since the game is out for 3 years, one would say that it's easy to find out about 3/3 air terran vs. 3/3 zerg terran, how good each side is etc. - but since noone ever reached that point - it's all about the patch philosophy. Why fix something that is not broken? I count two patches that made sense because the game was broken: fungal nerf, hellbat nerf. That's it. Everything else was basically David Kim saying "I don't care if you paid 60 bucks for a game, it's still beta stage"
On January 19 2014 22:53 grapedog wrote: anytime someone uses swarm hosts and loses, i laugh. it's like karma.
lol how can you say that when flash was playing mech? he was forced into swarm hosts by flash, and mech is still like 10 times more lame than swarm hosts.
He was doing tank run-bys and using the map to his full potential with great positioning, with the most ballsy base snipes I've ever seen. Completely playing against the established style of mech, attacking before max, sacking his whole ground army to kill bases, multi-proned tank attacks, not waiting to battle cruisers, and he won against swarm host corrupter infestor on a map where DRG can just move his swarmhosts slightly and attack 3 different bases with locusts.
Just no.
Well yes, as you said Flash used a completely different make, and it was beautiful, amazing entertaining w/e
While the Established style of mech is 10times crappier to watch and play than SH.
Raven turtle sucks to watch, but usually exists as a reaction to the zerg going swarmhost. Without PDD you eventually get worn down by locusts, unless you play like flash did here its impossible to win as the terran.
Lets just say both sides are problematic.
Therefore, TvZ is balanced!
No, sky terran is imbalanced, noone is arguing against that. I'd like to see zerg get a late-game anti-air buff, and I'm terran.
Well, DRG would have won if he didn't miss the first chain fungal.
He was far from winning with this move. He could not have emphasized on that loss immidiatly, and later on flash showcased he had so many more Vikings than he needed to destroy anything in the air that those Vikings would not have mattered. Yet I don't believe Skyterran is imbalanced either. DRG was very unlucky (and slightly sloppy) this game while outplaying flash all game long apart from the opening. If he gets one of the fortresses or both instead of having them stabilize in the double digits he is in amazing shape. Same of course goes for that fungal. Same goes for the one time he barely lost that hatch at the bottom left to banshees.
The only reason it was close was that flash threw away his first army in a bad attack that left him ~50 supply behind. From then on DRG did all he could to not achieve anything against Flashs infrastructure or army. Not up to par at all.
On January 20 2014 03:26 m0ck wrote: The only reason it was close was that flash threw away his first army in a bad attack that left him ~50 supply behind. From then on DRG did all he could to not achieve anything against Flashs infrastructure or army. Not up to par at all.
yeah and DRG opened Mutalisk, melee, baneling nest, 3base vs Mech which left him behind to begin with.
It's just hit me that while Flash barely won with tons of macro, positioning, micro, flanks etc etc etc, zerg mostly lets free units do the work or throws a couple of fungal that might have earned him the game. Im not blaming DRG but that specific style of zerg is just unpleasant to watch.
On January 20 2014 03:37 Arceus wrote: It's just hit me that while Flash barely won with tons of macro, positioning, micro, flanks etc etc etc, zerg mostly lets free units do the work or throws a couple of fungal that might have earned him the game. Im not blaming DRG but that specific style of zerg is just unpleasant to watch.
Amazing game. Few hours later recognizes that units were used that he didn't like. Suddenly it was unpleasant to watch...
On January 20 2014 03:37 Arceus wrote: It's just hit me that while Flash barely won with tons of macro, positioning, micro, flanks etc etc etc, zerg mostly lets free units do the work or throws a couple of fungal that might have earned him the game. Im not blaming DRG but that specific style of zerg is just unpleasant to watch.
Amazing game. Few hours later recognizes that units were used that he didn't like. Suddenly it was unpleasant to watch...
The knowledge of whether an action costs something or is dependent on something can affect your appreciation as a spectator, that's how spectating works. If there was just a button everyone could push to get perfect marine splits then no one would be impressed when it happens.
In BW for example even though there were many units or abilities that were next to free, like widow mines, spells, interceptors, reaver scarabs, we as spectators knew that there was a certain cost in time or cool down or minerals to get those, and that players can't just infinitely throw them at each other, and some of the most clutch games happened because of say players denying income for interceptors or scarabs or killing the zerg before consume is used for defilers etc.
If someone came as a spectator and didn't know anything about how locusts are spawned they might have a higher appreciation of the game than if he knew there was no consequence to the locusts dying.
On January 19 2014 22:59 FFW_Rude wrote: Am i the only one annoyed by : "SC2 is struggling/dying every single LR thread ?". It's even more annoying that balance whine
On January 20 2014 03:37 Arceus wrote: It's just hit me that while Flash barely won with tons of macro, positioning, micro, flanks etc etc etc, zerg mostly lets free units do the work or throws a couple of fungal that might have earned him the game. Im not blaming DRG but that specific style of zerg is just unpleasant to watch.
Amazing game. Few hours later recognizes that units were used that he didn't like. Suddenly it was unpleasant to watch...
The knowledge of whether an action costs something or is dependent on something can affect your appreciation as a spectator, that's how spectating works. If there was just a button everyone could push to get perfect marine splits then no one would be impressed when it happens.
In BW for example even though there were many units or abilities that were next to free, like widow mines, spells, interceptors, reaver scarabs, we as spectators knew that there was a certain cost in time or cool down or minerals to get those, and that players can't just infinitely throw them at each other, and some of the most clutch games happened because of say players denying income for interceptors or scarabs or killing the zerg before consume is used for defilers etc.
If someone came as a spectator and didn't know anything about how locusts are spawned they might have a higher appreciation of the game than if he knew there was no consequence to the locusts dying.
sad that people that have obviously no clue how much work went into what DRG was doing are allowed to bash on players like that.
On January 19 2014 21:17 Yello wrote: I really dislike Mech in TvZ. It's cool to see it from time to time but even with Flashs gigantic advantage this will be a loooooooong game. Almost every TvZ goes to super-lategame :/
Sadly mech is getting more and more popular in Korea ever since the Widow Mine nerf/Tank buff. I'd prefer to watch more 4M but Terrans are losing more and more with 4M and winning more and more with mech
Why would you want to watch a bunch of silly mines randomly going off and marines running around like ants on crack when you could watch the glory of Terran metal slowly crushing the life out of disgusting aliens?
the margin of victory in the ace match was truely razor-thin. losing one of the PFs instead of having them survive with <100hp or sucking up that last fungal on the viking clump could have meant game.
i also like flash's entertaining, aggressive style of mech. too bad his tvp still sucks... one thing we must admit though is that flash was massively benefitting from the maps in both games. im sure that style of mech wont work on all maps. but maybe he can mech it happen everywhere over time...
On January 19 2014 22:52 boxerfred wrote: And this is why I hate David Kim. Instantly buffing mech instead of waiting for the meta game to develop just saw zerg's lategame air being basically useless vs. 3/3. This is not a balance whine, I'm pretty sure DRG made too many mistakes/Flash played really stellar, but a huge complain about David Kim.
On January 19 2014 22:52 boxerfred wrote: And this is why I hate David Kim. Instantly buffing mech instead of waiting for the meta game to develop just saw zerg's lategame air being basically useless vs. 3/3. This is not a balance whine, I'm pretty sure DRG made too many mistakes/Flash played really stellar, but a huge complain about David Kim.
User was warned for this post
oh wow
I don't know man I think we can do well enough without the toxic David Kim bashing that's become so popular lately
On January 19 2014 21:17 Yello wrote: I really dislike Mech in TvZ. It's cool to see it from time to time but even with Flashs gigantic advantage this will be a loooooooong game. Almost every TvZ goes to super-lategame :/
Sadly mech is getting more and more popular in Korea ever since the Widow Mine nerf/Tank buff. I'd prefer to watch more 4M but Terrans are losing more and more with 4M and winning more and more with mech
Why would you want to watch a bunch of silly mines randomly going off and marines running around like ants on crack when you could watch the glory of Terran metal slowly crushing the life out of disgusting aliens?
Bomber style mass marines on crack is far more entertaining than 40 minutes of deathball vs deathball.
On January 19 2014 21:34 Caladan wrote: I wanna see ace rematch flash - sniper. :D
would be nice to see Sniper come back and take it but I would imagine MVP would be sending out Super
They could always send out DRG.
They also could just run naked out of the building, while screaming. + Show Spoiler +
Doesnt make sense either.
It annoys me when I see comments like this that have no clue how good drgs zvt is.
You mean when we had Dual Sight still in the pool?
You didn't watch your teams mascot get destroyed by drg in the gsl did you? Oh well, keep making silly assumptions I guess.
DRG's zvt is good cause he won vs innovation in the gsl? I mean his stats since Hots aren't really that great
His zvt is good because it's really fucking good? Before the widowmine nerf he was one of one people who had beaten innovation in straight up macro games without some massive melt down happening in innovation. Who gives a shit about the stats of a drg that was playing like dogshit until a few months ago?
W/e, he does himself no favors when he goes out and 6pools a terran etc.
On January 19 2014 21:34 Caladan wrote: I wanna see ace rematch flash - sniper. :D
would be nice to see Sniper come back and take it but I would imagine MVP would be sending out Super
They could always send out DRG.
They also could just run naked out of the building, while screaming. + Show Spoiler +
Doesnt make sense either.
It annoys me when I see comments like this that have no clue how good drgs zvt is.
You mean when we had Dual Sight still in the pool?
You didn't watch your teams mascot get destroyed by drg in the gsl did you? Oh well, keep making silly assumptions I guess.
DRG's zvt is good cause he won vs innovation in the gsl? I mean his stats since Hots aren't really that great
His zvt is good because it's really fucking good? Before the widowmine nerf he was one of one people who had beaten innovation in straight up macro games without some massive melt down happening in innovation. Who gives a shit about the stats of a drg that was playing like dogshit until a few months ago?
W/e, he does himself no favors when he goes out and 6pools a terran etc.
Mhm if we only pick the games we like i think every zerg has good zvt, drg is mediocre, deal with it
On January 20 2014 08:32 opterown wrote: eh I think DRG zvt is pretty good
I wonder why you guys think he is that good versus terran, he won vs innovation and then everybody was like "wow drg is back!!!", no he isn't. If his zvt is really that good he would not 6 pool vs maru, but yeah. I think his zvt is overhyped as fuck cause of one match vs innovation...
On January 19 2014 21:17 Yello wrote: I really dislike Mech in TvZ. It's cool to see it from time to time but even with Flashs gigantic advantage this will be a loooooooong game. Almost every TvZ goes to super-lategame :/
Sadly mech is getting more and more popular in Korea ever since the Widow Mine nerf/Tank buff. I'd prefer to watch more 4M but Terrans are losing more and more with 4M and winning more and more with mech
Why would you want to watch a bunch of silly mines randomly going off and marines running around like ants on crack when you could watch the glory of Terran metal slowly crushing the life out of disgusting aliens?
Bomber style mass marines on crack is far more entertaining than 40 minutes of deathball vs deathball.
I've watched a number of mech TvZ games lately, not a single Terran has played deathball style on the ground.
On January 20 2014 08:32 opterown wrote: eh I think DRG zvt is pretty good
I wonder why you guys think he is that good versus terran, he won vs innovation and then everybody was like "wow drg is back!!!", no he isn't. If his zvt is really that good he would not 6 pool vs maru, but yeah. I think his zvt is overhyped as fuck cause of one match vs innovation...
You think it's possible to play a bo3 vs innovation with three incredible games and not have good zvt?
"Maybe he just fluked it for 90 minutes," yeah right.
On January 20 2014 08:32 opterown wrote: eh I think DRG zvt is pretty good
I wonder why you guys think he is that good versus terran, he won vs innovation and then everybody was like "wow drg is back!!!", no he isn't. If his zvt is really that good he would not 6 pool vs maru, but yeah. I think his zvt is overhyped as fuck cause of one match vs innovation...
You think it's possible to play a bo3 vs innovation with three incredible games and not have good zvt?
"Maybe he just fluked it for 90 minutes," yeah right.
Whatever, think what you want, in 3 days we might see if he is really that good
On January 20 2014 08:32 opterown wrote: eh I think DRG zvt is pretty good
I wonder why you guys think he is that good versus terran, he won vs innovation and then everybody was like "wow drg is back!!!", no he isn't. If his zvt is really that good he would not 6 pool vs maru, but yeah. I think his zvt is overhyped as fuck cause of one match vs innovation...
maru is known to play greedy at times, a choice of 6pool means nothing. before that maru game, DRG had won his last 9 zvt series, nothing to be sneezed at
On January 20 2014 08:32 opterown wrote: eh I think DRG zvt is pretty good
I wonder why you guys think he is that good versus terran, he won vs innovation and then everybody was like "wow drg is back!!!", no he isn't. If his zvt is really that good he would not 6 pool vs maru, but yeah. I think his zvt is overhyped as fuck cause of one match vs innovation...
You think it's possible to play a bo3 vs innovation with three incredible games and not have good zvt?
"Maybe he just fluked it for 90 minutes," yeah right.
Whatever, think what you want, in 3 days we might see if he is really that good
DRG is one of the best ZvT players on the planet. Your logic 'he 6pooled maru' doesn't mean shit mate - if he thinks Maru thinks he is good at ZvT, Maru might try and get an eco advantage by 15cc builds. DRG banked on the fact he would do that and went for an early rush to counter it - unfortunately it didn't pay off.
Like it or not, basically all pro players have to cheese occassionally to keep a credible threat and unpredictability in their play. If you *know* a player will never cheese you, you can abuse that fact by either cheesing them, or getting an eco lead every game.
On January 20 2014 08:32 opterown wrote: eh I think DRG zvt is pretty good
I wonder why you guys think he is that good versus terran, he won vs innovation and then everybody was like "wow drg is back!!!", no he isn't. If his zvt is really that good he would not 6 pool vs maru, but yeah. I think his zvt is overhyped as fuck cause of one match vs innovation...
You think it's possible to play a bo3 vs innovation with three incredible games and not have good zvt?
"Maybe he just fluked it for 90 minutes," yeah right.
Whatever, think what you want, in 3 days we might see if he is really that good
DRG is one of the best ZvT players on the planet. Your logic 'he 6pooled maru' doesn't mean shit mate - if he thinks Maru thinks he is good at ZvT, Maru might try and get an eco advantage by 15cc builds. DRG banked on the fact he would do that and went for an early rush to counter it - unfortunately it didn't pay off.
Like it or not, basically all pro players have to cheese occassionally to keep a credible threat and unpredictability in their play. If you *know* a player will never cheese you, you can abuse that fact by either cheesing them, or getting an eco lead every game.
I just think it is funny that pretty much everytime someone doubts drg's zvt, the only reason people seem to think he is that good is ONE match vs innovation. Maybe i am dead wrong, but i at least don't value someone cause of one match, and a lot of people did ("drg is back!!!")
On January 19 2014 21:17 Yello wrote: I really dislike Mech in TvZ. It's cool to see it from time to time but even with Flashs gigantic advantage this will be a loooooooong game. Almost every TvZ goes to super-lategame :/
Sadly mech is getting more and more popular in Korea ever since the Widow Mine nerf/Tank buff. I'd prefer to watch more 4M but Terrans are losing more and more with 4M and winning more and more with mech
Why would you want to watch a bunch of silly mines randomly going off and marines running around like ants on crack when you could watch the glory of Terran metal slowly crushing the life out of disgusting aliens?
Bomber style mass marines on crack is far more entertaining than 40 minutes of deathball vs deathball.
Yeah I'm sure it is, but I got fed up of watching the same game over and over again about a year ago. Only having one style being viable was killing the game despite how entertaining you thought it was. It was always deathball vs deathball it's just with bio it looks smaller despite being just as bad.
Flash's mech today was some of the most entertaining games I've seen in SC2 in over a year and I've pretty much stopped watching SC2 now apart from his and Fantasy's games for the reasons I listed above.
After playing nothing but mech since WoL's release up until about 6 months ago I quit playing just before the tank buff and I can safely say I'm very glad it made a difference. It's nice seeing that a small amount of tanks can actually hold a base long enough for reinforcements to get there as that's a massive thing that was missing from SC2 when I was playing, tanks were so bad that you had to bunch everything in one big group and hope you didn't die. Seeing defenders advantage is very promising.
On January 20 2014 08:32 opterown wrote: eh I think DRG zvt is pretty good
I wonder why you guys think he is that good versus terran, he won vs innovation and then everybody was like "wow drg is back!!!", no he isn't. If his zvt is really that good he would not 6 pool vs maru, but yeah. I think his zvt is overhyped as fuck cause of one match vs innovation...
You think it's possible to play a bo3 vs innovation with three incredible games and not have good zvt?
"Maybe he just fluked it for 90 minutes," yeah right.
Whatever, think what you want, in 3 days we might see if he is really that good
DRG is one of the best ZvT players on the planet. Your logic 'he 6pooled maru' doesn't mean shit mate - if he thinks Maru thinks he is good at ZvT, Maru might try and get an eco advantage by 15cc builds. DRG banked on the fact he would do that and went for an early rush to counter it - unfortunately it didn't pay off.
Like it or not, basically all pro players have to cheese occassionally to keep a credible threat and unpredictability in their play. If you *know* a player will never cheese you, you can abuse that fact by either cheesing them, or getting an eco lead every game.
I just think it is funny that pretty much everytime someone doubts drg's zvt, the only reason people seem to think he is that good is ONE match vs innovation. Maybe i am dead wrong, but i at least don't value someone cause of one match, and a lot of people did ("drg is back!!!")
"...but i at least don't value someone cause of one match..." - The_Red_Viper, 2014. "If his zvt is really that good he would not 6 pool vs maru, but yeah." - The_Red_Viper, 2014.
On January 20 2014 08:32 opterown wrote: eh I think DRG zvt is pretty good
I wonder why you guys think he is that good versus terran, he won vs innovation and then everybody was like "wow drg is back!!!", no he isn't. If his zvt is really that good he would not 6 pool vs maru, but yeah. I think his zvt is overhyped as fuck cause of one match vs innovation...
You think it's possible to play a bo3 vs innovation with three incredible games and not have good zvt?
"Maybe he just fluked it for 90 minutes," yeah right.
Whatever, think what you want, in 3 days we might see if he is really that good
DRG is one of the best ZvT players on the planet. Your logic 'he 6pooled maru' doesn't mean shit mate - if he thinks Maru thinks he is good at ZvT, Maru might try and get an eco advantage by 15cc builds. DRG banked on the fact he would do that and went for an early rush to counter it - unfortunately it didn't pay off.
Like it or not, basically all pro players have to cheese occassionally to keep a credible threat and unpredictability in their play. If you *know* a player will never cheese you, you can abuse that fact by either cheesing them, or getting an eco lead every game.
I just think it is funny that pretty much everytime someone doubts drg's zvt, the only reason people seem to think he is that good is ONE match vs innovation. Maybe i am dead wrong, but i at least don't value someone cause of one match, and a lot of people did ("drg is back!!!")
"...but i at least don't value someone cause of one match..." - The_Red_Viper, 2014. "If his zvt is really that good he would not 6 pool vs maru, but yeah." - The_Red_Viper, 2014.
Logic? That was one argument against his "best zvt in the world" , i didn't value his zvt cause of that game, that would be pretty weird to do, but you have to ask yourself why he would 6 pool if he had confidence in his ZvT (again, that is just one thought, no value of his overall Zvt....) I didn't value his zvt cause of the game against flash either, i looked at aligulac and did see pretty medicore stats overall, that is all i say here... You guys just defend him again and again cause he won vs innovation, but again, we will see his zvt in code A
On January 19 2014 21:34 Caladan wrote: I wanna see ace rematch flash - sniper. :D
would be nice to see Sniper come back and take it but I would imagine MVP would be sending out Super
They could always send out DRG.
They also could just run naked out of the building, while screaming. + Show Spoiler +
Doesnt make sense either.
It annoys me when I see comments like this that have no clue how good drgs zvt is.
You mean when we had Dual Sight still in the pool?
You didn't watch your teams mascot get destroyed by drg in the gsl did you? Oh well, keep making silly assumptions I guess.
DRG's zvt is good cause he won vs innovation in the gsl? I mean his stats since Hots aren't really that great
His zvt is good because it's really fucking good? Before the widowmine nerf he was one of one people who had beaten innovation in straight up macro games without some massive melt down happening in innovation. Who gives a shit about the stats of a drg that was playing like dogshit until a few months ago?
W/e, he does himself no favors when he goes out and 6pools a terran etc.
Mhm if we only pick the games we like i think every zerg has good zvt, drg is mediocre, deal with it
GSL winners who built a reputation on ridiculously good ZvT are mediocre now. Okay.
On January 20 2014 08:32 opterown wrote: eh I think DRG zvt is pretty good
I wonder why you guys think he is that good versus terran, he won vs innovation and then everybody was like "wow drg is back!!!", no he isn't. If his zvt is really that good he would not 6 pool vs maru, but yeah. I think his zvt is overhyped as fuck cause of one match vs innovation...
You think it's possible to play a bo3 vs innovation with three incredible games and not have good zvt?
"Maybe he just fluked it for 90 minutes," yeah right.
Whatever, think what you want, in 3 days we might see if he is really that good
DRG is one of the best ZvT players on the planet. Your logic 'he 6pooled maru' doesn't mean shit mate - if he thinks Maru thinks he is good at ZvT, Maru might try and get an eco advantage by 15cc builds. DRG banked on the fact he would do that and went for an early rush to counter it - unfortunately it didn't pay off.
Like it or not, basically all pro players have to cheese occassionally to keep a credible threat and unpredictability in their play. If you *know* a player will never cheese you, you can abuse that fact by either cheesing them, or getting an eco lead every game.
I just think it is funny that pretty much everytime someone doubts drg's zvt, the only reason people seem to think he is that good is ONE match vs innovation. Maybe i am dead wrong, but i at least don't value someone cause of one match, and a lot of people did ("drg is back!!!")
"...but i at least don't value someone cause of one match..." - The_Red_Viper, 2014. "If his zvt is really that good he would not 6 pool vs maru, but yeah." - The_Red_Viper, 2014.
Logic? That was one argument against his "best zvt in the world" , i didn't value his zvt cause of that game, that would be pretty weird to do, but you have to ask yourself why he would 6 pool if he had confidence in his ZvT (again, that is just one thought, no value of his overall Zvt....) I didn't value his zvt cause of the game against flash either, i looked at aligulac and did see pretty medicore stats overall, that is all i say here... You guys just defend him again and again cause he won vs innovation, but again, we will see his zvt in code A
"...the only reason people seem to think he is that good is ONE match vs innovation" - The_Red_Viper, 2014.
"...i looked at aligulac and did see pretty mediocre stats overall, that is all i say here.." - The_Red_Viper, 2014.
" Results for DongRaeGu between 2013-08-10 and 2014-01-13.
Ofc they are, why exactly set the date there? Cause before he was bad, that's why. It doesn't even include flash, and it includes a foreigner, if that all added is not biased, well i don't know really
You said everyone started saying he was back cause of one match against Innovation. These are all the games around that time period, proving that, no, he didn't just win one match. He consecutively won a number of series against very high level players, including Gumiho, Flash, and Fantasy prior to that Bo3 win vs Innovation.
Your argument is entirely that people are judging him on one game.
Furthermore, you contend that he is bad based on one game against Maru, which furthermore was a gamble 6-pool build and thus not very indicative of skill anyway.
But you're right, I am the biased one here. Not the person who is using one 6pool build in an attempt to disregard the 9 matches prior to it.
On January 20 2014 09:57 SpunXtain20 wrote: The_Red_Viper,
You said everyone started saying he was back cause of one match against Innovation. These are all the games around that time period, proving that, no, he didn't just win one match. He consecutively won a number of series against very high level players, including Gumiho, Flash, and Fantasy prior to that Bo3 win vs Innovation.
Your argument is entirely that people are judging him on one game.
Furthermore, you contend that he is bad based on one game against Maru, which furthermore was a gamble 6-pool build and thus not very indicative of skill anyway.
But you're right, I am the biased one here. Not the person who is using one 6pool build in an attempt to disregard the 9 matches prior to it.
"Logic?..." - The_Red_Viper, 2014.
I didn't say he is bad cause of a 6 pool game, i said you have to ask yourself why he would do a 6 pool if he is so good at ZvT. And yes, winning vs Harrier, Kop and Hack is surely impressive as hell, cmon be real for a moment pls.
On January 20 2014 09:50 The_Red_Viper wrote: Ofc they are, why exactly set the date there? Cause before he was bad, that's why. It doesn't even include flash, and it includes a foreigner, if that all added is not biased, well i don't know really
But whatever, i have no problem with DRG being good at ZvT, but i don't think he has proven to be "one of the best in the world"
Why exactly set the date? Because people were saying "He's back" not "He was good for all of HotS". Furthermore, I wasn't one of those people arguing that, but I just hate seeing idiots like you who try to argue something with faulty logic and make the same fallacies that they're arguing other people use.
On January 20 2014 09:57 SpunXtain20 wrote: The_Red_Viper,
You said everyone started saying he was back cause of one match against Innovation. These are all the games around that time period, proving that, no, he didn't just win one match. He consecutively won a number of series against very high level players, including Gumiho, Flash, and Fantasy prior to that Bo3 win vs Innovation.
Your argument is entirely that people are judging him on one game.
Furthermore, you contend that he is bad based on one game against Maru, which furthermore was a gamble 6-pool build and thus not very indicative of skill anyway.
But you're right, I am the biased one here. Not the person who is using one 6pool build in an attempt to disregard the 9 matches prior to it.
"Logic?..." - The_Red_Viper, 2014.
I didn't say he is bad cause of a 6 pool game, i said you have to ask yourself why he would do a 6 pool if he is so good at ZvT. And yes, winning vs Harrier, Kop and Hack is surely impressive as hell, cmon be real for a moment pls.
"He consecutively won a number of series against very high level players, including Gumiho, Flash and Fantasy prior to that Bo3 win vs Innovation" - SpunXtain20, 2014.
"And yes, winning vs Harrier, Kop and Hack is surely impressive as hell, cmon be real for a moment pls." - The_Red_Viper, 2014.
If i could report you, i would The funny thing is you really seem to think that you are making good arguments Fantasy, the one who isn't even allowed to play in Proleague? Gumiho, who did nothing impressive for a long time either... Yeah such high class players, you did fully convince me now, ty, you should become a pastor!
On January 20 2014 09:57 SpunXtain20 wrote: The_Red_Viper,
You said everyone started saying he was back cause of one match against Innovation. These are all the games around that time period, proving that, no, he didn't just win one match. He consecutively won a number of series against very high level players, including Gumiho, Flash, and Fantasy prior to that Bo3 win vs Innovation.
Your argument is entirely that people are judging him on one game.
Furthermore, you contend that he is bad based on one game against Maru, which furthermore was a gamble 6-pool build and thus not very indicative of skill anyway.
But you're right, I am the biased one here. Not the person who is using one 6pool build in an attempt to disregard the 9 matches prior to it.
"Logic?..." - The_Red_Viper, 2014.
I didn't say he is bad cause of a 6 pool game, i said you have to ask yourself why he would do a 6 pool if he is so good at ZvT. And yes, winning vs Harrier, Kop and Hack is surely impressive as hell, cmon be real for a moment pls.
Yeah, like what was with that Jaedong guy in Brood War? Using 4 pool builds? If he was really so good, why did he have to 4 pool? Conclusion: Jaedong actually wasn't good at Brood War.
On January 20 2014 10:06 The_Red_Viper wrote: If i could report you, i would The funny thing is you really seem to think that you are making good arguments Fantasy, the one who isn't even allowed to play in Proleague? Gumiho, who did nothing impressive for a long time either... Yeah such high class players, you did fully convince me now, ty, you should become a pastor!
"If i could report you, i would" - The_Red_Viper, while knowing full well he has absolutely no credible reason to report me, 2014.
"Fantasy, the one who isn't even allowed to play in Proleague?" - The_Red_Viper, 2014.
"Jin Air Green Wings vs SK Telecom T1
(T)Maru < Outboxer > (Z)Soulkey (P)sOs < Yeonsu LE > (P)Rain (Z)TRUE < Star Station TE > (T)FanTaSy (Z)Rogue (CliMax,Savage) < Frost LE > (P)Classic" - Proleague, Round 1 Week 4, 2014.
"...you did fully convince me now, ty..." - The_Red_Viper, possibly while having a revelation, 2014.
"you should become a pastor!" - The_Red_Viper, the first good idea he had, 2014.
You're right though, Fantasy not playing very regularly in proleague has nothing to do with the fact that three of his teammates were in the top 8 of the last WCS KR season, and two of them were the finalists of the Hot6ix Cup.
People actually find that style of mech entertaining? It was high level for sure, I do feel DRG just needed a few Muta hitssquads earlier, being pulled apart while you expand laterally is a big weakness of his style, and Mutas could have prevented those hatch snipes.
I only saw the game v DRG, will check the Sniper VoD too.
The mech games by Flash were some of the best games of SC2 ever. To think what would have been hadn't Dustin "I hate tanks" Browder in charge of development.
And remember boys and girls, Dustin Browder, David Kim, and Jay Wilson are in charge of 'Heroes of the Storm'. Buyers beware!
because they were flash winning in relatively close/entertaining games, people who are fans of their player will call those some of the best game. i'm sure you'd list some HerO games as some of the best SC2 games ever, too.
On January 20 2014 13:36 Wombat_NI wrote: How in the name of Zeus were they some of the best SC2 games ever?
I think people are just hyped because we saw some proper mech play breaking up the 4M monotony. And also it's Flash.
I suppose I can understand why some people like 4M, it's fast paced and stuff. But personally I rather dislike Blizzard's focus on extreme speed and mobility, and watching big clumps of marines run around the map for 15-30 minutes is only interesting every once in a while. It makes me miss the space control and meticulous, methodical attacks we saw in WoL TvZ before the queen patch ruined everything. I'll take the mech play with actual tech progression over "I make 4M and attack nonstop until one of us is dead" any day.
I watched the game vs Sniper and Flash completely dismantled him. Game vs DRG was closer, both were very WP by Flash, but all time great games they were not (IMO)
I'm not going to argue whether the games were highest level tvz or whatever, but today flash was able to show his true suffocating macro-based, tank heavy style of play, even if he was playing at 75% at best by my calculations.
This is the famous style that choked Jaedong to death with unbreakable tank lines on matchpoint. This is what demolished Zero 3-0 in the MSL finals (with a bio opening) with no solution in sight. This is all that the "defence master" Soulkey on electric circuit saw as he attempted to stop god: a line of tanks protected by a line of mines laid by a stream of vultures moving closer and closer to his base.
There is nothing a Zerg can do to win against this sort of perfect space controlling play. To add to that, Flash was floating half the cash of soulkey with almost double the income.
That is why some people think this "Carlsen style" of Terran chess should not be "allowed" in sc2. It just wins. But today we saw that it was fun, fresh and powerful.
On January 20 2014 13:54 lichter wrote: you should hear olli arguing about the greatness of HerO games, sheesh
havent seen ANY hero games being as entertaining as good tvzs. and this one was a good one. not the best maybe, but far more entertaining than laser/deathball or storm to win games.. the way protoss play may be balanced, but not entertaining
Flash's style is always not so multitasking oriented, he's much more comfortable with macro, mech, and slow push. Mvp has the similar style.
But the hot terrans right now are all multitasking oriented, and they are young, such as Maru, Innovation and Baby. HotS definitely favors multitasking terran. Drops all over the maps are very entertaining, but it's still nice to see some traditional mech slow pushes.
EPT
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Sniper < Outboxer > 
Flash
Billowy < Yeonsu LE > ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bv8Kw.png)
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