EPTwas it to save money or something? or do they think this faster format instead of 6 + ace is better?
[SPL] MVP vs SKT T1 Round 1 2014 - Page 46
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mikumegurine
Canada3145 Posts
was it to save money or something? or do they think this faster format instead of 6 + ace is better? | ||
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shid0x
Korea (South)5014 Posts
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On December 30 2013 00:57 Hider wrote: What are you basing this off? Against a 1 base blink-all in I can (from my experience) always straight up beats blink stalkers with bio + 4 Medis. In the case where the protoss player has 2-3 less stalkers, it seems logical to assume that you only need 2 medviacs to break out. This is ofc. assuming that your maurauder/marine ratio is pretty high (e.g. you have 2 tech labs and 1 barrack without any addons) Yeh I expected this response, because it is a typical reason for scanning "I am confused what is happening now?" But in reality, its not logical to think like that. You should only scan, if your planning to change the way you play depending on your information. At the time Dream scanned, he wasn't gonna change anything really, and thus it was just a poor decision of him to scan. All this simply comes down to him being in an unfamiliar situation, where he didn't have time to figure out the optimal response. So I feel that Rain deserves some more credit for making developing this type of build. Wouldn't surprise me if he perhaps had studied Dream and knew he likely was gonna react the wrong way. Actually, 'I am confused what is happening now' is the perfect reason to scan IMO. For example, what if Rain had only made 2-3 stalkers and cancelled blink after his build got scouted and went pure eco double forge HT or DT? Especially if Dream had lifted into his main as you suggested, this would have been a perfectly viable transition and if Dream had continued playing defensively and delaying upgrades would have put him significantly behind. In fact, a transition into DT would have likely done significant damage to Dream as well in this situation. Otherwise I agree with a lot of the things you've said. If Terran knows exactly what's happening, they can react to it and defend it okay (but not necessarily be ahead IMO), but every variation of every build requires a different response so Terran has to know like 100 counter builds to what Protoss can do in the early game if they want to macro... which they're forced into doing, because any sort of Terran all-in working relies on Protoss doing something non-standard. Meanwhile Protoss has a (couple) safe macro builds which can get you to the ~9:00 minute mark without any reaction to what your opponent is doing as long as you used what the build gets effectively, and you can even be reasonably sure you're even or ahead afterwards vs even the greediest Terran builds. Edit: I'm not really sure how Dream was realistically supposed to defend this without maphacks, Rain's building placement ensured that in order for Dream to scout the tech he had to lose the reaper (or spend a scan that early which isn't really an option), and therefore Dream had no way to know what Rain was doing after Dream scouted his tech. Add into that the fact that Rain's attack was significantly delayed due to the late warp gate, and Dream was left completely in the dark and had to just guess at what was happening. IIRC Dream didn't even see the natural Nexus go down. | ||
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LockeTazeline
2390 Posts
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Tamagoshi
Brazil981 Posts
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Undead1993
Germany17651 Posts
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illidanx
United States973 Posts
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On December 30 2013 06:48 illidanx wrote: lol, the $5 subscription from last year is still active. No need to pay again :D Same here, best five dollars I've ever spent. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
Actually, 'I am confused what is happening now' is the perfect reason to scan IMO. For example, what if Rain had only made 2-3 stalkers and cancelled blink after his build got scouted and went pure eco double forge HT or DT? Especially if Dream had lifted into his main as you suggested, this would have been a perfectly viable transition and if Dream had continued playing defensively and delaying upgrades would have put him significantly behind. In fact, a transition into DT would have likely done significant damage to Dream as well in this situation. Cancelling blink? No that never ever happens since you still can do damage with your blink Stalkers. So cancelling it after investing into all the tech is just dumb. In the case where Rain goes for Greed, its actually a lot more likely that he is getting a fast 3rd, and the scan doesn't help him in anyway about that. Also I believe it is super unlikely that Dream will ever scout 3+ infastructures. Rain is smart enough not to put infastrtucture that has so much valueable information in an obvious scan location. In the more realistic case where he scans a forge and a robo he still can't move out before Medis are out, so in that case, the scan is premature. So really he should have lifted natural into main. Not scanned (but perhaps kept an scv out on the map). Waited for 2 Medi's --> then push out, or altenratively he could scan before pushing out (a later scan contains a lot more valuable information than this scan which was just premature). Edit: I'm not really sure how Dream was realistically supposed to defend this without maphacks, Rain's building placement ensured that in order for Dream to scout the tech he had to lose the reaper (or spend a scan that early which isn't really an option), and therefore Dream had no way to know what Rain was doing after Dream scouted his tech. Add into that the fact that Rain's attack was significantly delayed due to the late warp gate, and Dream was left completely in the dark and had to just guess at what was happening. IIRC Dream didn't even see the natural Nexus go down. I already laid that out? 1) Lift expo into main. 2) Cut bio produciton a bit 3) Get faster Medis out 4) Reclaim expo when 2 medis are out. Perhaps delay salvaing bunkers untill you get a feeling for whether Rain still is at <25 probes when you attempt to reclaim the natural. The reason he didn't do this is because it isn't particualrly intutive to expect that you have to play 1base for a while against a 2-base protoss. But due to Mothership Core (thanks blizzard), that's simply the nature of the new TvP. But I think when you add up the math, this approach is pretty solid against everything Rain can throw at you (after the opening phase). | ||
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9-BiT
United States1089 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On December 30 2013 03:35 mikumegurine wrote: anyone know what the explanation for lowering the # of games to only 4 + ace were? was it to save money or something? or do they think this faster format instead of 6 + ace is better? Several reasons which they addressed in the format thread and the KeSPA president made mention to it as well. It had to do with restructuring of teams to try and make them sustainable while bringing in the new guys as well. They're trying to squeeze everything in and they want to make sure everyone can compete. It's their new budgeting of the production blah, blah, blah. It had to be done. On December 30 2013 10:30 9-BiT wrote: So now Protoss has the advantage early mid and lategame, with Terran only having a real advantage endgame. Nice. Errr I bet you some people would say Protoss have a good advantage late game as well. | ||
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kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
On December 30 2013 10:30 9-BiT wrote: So now Protoss has the advantage early mid and lategame, with Terran only having a real advantage endgame. Nice. Protoss has always had the advantage before the medivacs are out and stim is done since Wings of Liberty. The terran expanded way before Protoss, invests in bunkers, engineering bay and +1, and concussive shells and stim and reactor starport. He stops unit production especially marauder production for a quite a while to get that bay ,+1 attack and reactor starport. None of that paid off....that's so much wasted resources on tech and structures and too little on actual units. He knows the Protoss invested a lot in gateways and his expansion is delayed. Why doesn't he just play more conservatively? Terran doesn't need to get their +1 faster than Protoss. | ||
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jellyjello
Korea (South)664 Posts
On December 30 2013 04:37 Pursuit_ wrote: Actually, 'I am confused what is happening now' is the perfect reason to scan IMO. For example, what if Rain had only made 2-3 stalkers and cancelled blink after his build got scouted and went pure eco double forge HT or DT? Especially if Dream had lifted into his main as you suggested, this would have been a perfectly viable transition and if Dream had continued playing defensively and delaying upgrades would have put him significantly behind. In fact, a transition into DT would have likely done significant damage to Dream as well in this situation. Otherwise I agree with a lot of the things you've said. If Terran knows exactly what's happening, they can react to it and defend it okay (but not necessarily be ahead IMO), but every variation of every build requires a different response so Terran has to know like 100 counter builds to what Protoss can do in the early game if they want to macro... which they're forced into doing, because any sort of Terran all-in working relies on Protoss doing something non-standard. Meanwhile Protoss has a (couple) safe macro builds which can get you to the ~9:00 minute mark without any reaction to what your opponent is doing as long as you used what the build gets effectively, and you can even be reasonably sure you're even or ahead afterwards vs even the greediest Terran builds. Edit: I'm not really sure how Dream was realistically supposed to defend this without maphacks, Rain's building placement ensured that in order for Dream to scout the tech he had to lose the reaper (or spend a scan that early which isn't really an option), and therefore Dream had no way to know what Rain was doing after Dream scouted his tech. Add into that the fact that Rain's attack was significantly delayed due to the late warp gate, and Dream was left completely in the dark and had to just guess at what was happening. IIRC Dream didn't even see the natural Nexus go down. You don't necessarily have to scout out the entire infrastructure with scans, but instead you can get valuable information by counting the probes and where Rain uses his chrono boosts on. He could also have made a couple of widow mines and place them on the ledge where mothership core was hovering around. All I'm saying is that I think it's too early to call any map imba. Give more time to the players and let them figure it out. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
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Carefree
United States1571 Posts
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