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On September 27 2013 22:31 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:27 klup wrote:
But honnestly i don't see how terran can get rid of 4M with the dominance of mutas in this matchup. Mines are one soft counter for mutas and besides thor that can be magicboxed really easily there are no answer in the terran arsenal to mass mutas as protoss have with phenix. yeh i think that's as big a reason as any why the zerg win percentage has gone way up, really heavy mutalisk styles are coming in, upwords of 30. It's so hard to hold expansions in the late game vs so many mutas. I know people have always been going mutas in hots, but maybe not quite so many as they are getting these days.
thanks to the overseer buff mines no longer counter mutalisks
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On September 27 2013 22:49 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:44 bo1b wrote:On September 27 2013 22:42 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:38 TeeTS wrote:On September 27 2013 22:33 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:18 bo1b wrote:
This is the same person who thinks having a separate hotkey for marines/marauders in order to stutter step without losing medivac healing is too hard.
He might be the most amazing player in the universe, but his bias is insane. Oh, hadn't seen this one. How about you go laddering a bit with Terran, and experiment by yourself what happens when you try to manage 3 control groups in a fight lasting 3-4 seconds on average—all while splitting Marines and apparently targetting with Mines, something not even the Code S Terrans manage to do at once despite having 500-550 apm at peaks during engagements? I'm sure you'll do all of this so much better. the thing is, there are several reasons you normally want your medivacs right above the bio. If you put them on a different control group you might get more healing, but they are exposed if you kite back, you lose the option to insta pick up. I rather lose a bit of healing than lose a couple of medivacs or are unable to pick up and leave if nessecary. Plus you don't even need Medivacs on their own groups to micro them away from Marines; what I do, when I want to hit & run without Medivacs dancing awkwardly with Marines, is simply ctrl-click Medivacs, boost them away behind my Marines, and ctrl-click Marines to hit & run. I'm sure I'm not the only one doing that. Then why are you saying that its so hard to have medivacs not in your army control group? Just bizarre. Double click on sc2.exe, F2, 1v1 Terran and you'll figure it out why by yourself once you're familiar with Terran micro in TvZ engagements.
Edit this is fucking stupid, I got to masters (which isn't as high as you or naruto, not that I'm saying I'm better) as terran like 3 months ago, and I assumed that pretty much everyone kept there medivacs and army seperate so they could stutter step there marines without stutter stepping medivacs.
Whatever.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I just knew this thread would explode lol
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On September 27 2013 23:10 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:06 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:02 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 22:50 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:47 robson1 wrote:
yada yada yada. Terran imba weak.
2013:
Premier tournament wins Terran: 10
Second places in premier tournaments: 3
final appearances: 13
Premier Tournament wins Protoss: 3
Second places in premier tournaments: 7
final appearances: 10
Premier tournament wins Zerg: 5
Second places in premier tournaments: 6
Final appearances: 11
u have to realize , there were some terran nerf inbetween and more nerfs incoming soon, terran was rlly strong before the hellbat nerf cant compare whole 2013 to what it is now -.- Since July Terran won 4 premier tournaments and got 1 second place Zerg won 2 premier tournaments and got 3 second places Protoss got 2 second places how about you look in the situation right now?? how many terrans we got in wcs eu ro8, and innovation the best TvZer loosing tvz left and right lately Would you f*ing look at this chart: http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterInnovation is 8-2 in his last 10 TvZs Innovation is also 7-3 in his last 10 Korean TvZs http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=KR&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterWcS Eu has a pretty weak terran lineup with MVP being waaaaay past his prime and hindered by the online lag. Foreigner Terrans always always always struggled. I think only MMA and ForGG were solid candidates for a Ro8 finish. MvP is way past his prime. Lucifron is slumping right now... the rest of the field is just not that impressive. http://www.aligulac.com/reports/balance/look at the terran performance chart, its been on the decline the whole time, and its only till august, september will be way worse, and terran still gets nerfed in the end, so i guess terran is imba? and stop insulting plz..
I didn't insult anyone. Except the f*cking chart.
Also terran is not imba. I just think it's hilarious that Innovation looses like two games and everyone is starting to worry that terran is to weak. The results do not support that at all.
Right now the meta is evolving in such a way that terran is doing not all to hot, but that could change in the next 2-3 weeks, who knows.
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On September 27 2013 23:08 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:54 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:49 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:40 vthree wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote:
I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Like he has a choice? Tier 3 Terran is still a huge joke. Tanks are a joke with fast mutas. Mech is counter by swarm hosts and vipers. I guess he can try more 11-11s? Just putting together a tight mid game build that he occasionally deviates to would make him scary as shit. More raxes instead of a 3rd CC, 2 factory helions or even banshee builds. How can you expect to play against people who know your build off by heart. Upgrades, expansion timing, the reaper and hellion timing and the 2 medivac push timing is going to be expected against him every game, because he does it every game. Seriously, if the guy did this build 75% of the time instead of 100% he doesn't 2 rax, people would actually have to do something other than being able to blind counter him. Bogus did change his builds a bit, but the problem is that you can only go so far when your only versatility comes from the number of reactors your fact can make for other buildings. 2-bases timings (2 fact BFH, Marines/Hellions/Medivacs, Hellbats/Marauders, etc.) are all bad against correct Zerg reaction; he does play them a bit from time to time, but mostly against inferior opponents. It's definitely not the build you want to play against a competent opponent when your Code S slot in on the line; praying your opponent doesn't sac an over is too much of a gamble at this level. I'm sorry that makes no sense at all. Doing the same build against stronger opponents and mixing it up against worse opponents is pointless. A weaker opponent will lose to the strong build most of the time, even if they know it's coming. So to mix it up against them, while good, isn't really that effective. Mixing it up against a strong opponent keeps them playing honest and not being able to cut too many corners, which a good opponent is much more likely to take advantage of if presented the opportunity. As it is, if you've watched two games of Innovation, you've basically seen his play style. Every Terran's PlaystyleI really think if you want a good example of a seriously amazing Terran to learn from you need to look at MvP. If you want to look for a strong safe ladder build, look at Innovation.
You make it sound like it's only innovation that plays this way. Every terran plays the same build every single time, 3 cc, 2 ebay, rally and win or die trying. Of course there are tiny slight variants, some might open reaper instead of cc first, some may make 1 tank or something, some might go for a hellbat drop, but generally it's all the same, zergs do not really even need to scout, they know what is coming from pretty much any terran, not just innovation.
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On September 27 2013 23:14 lichter wrote:
I just knew this thread would explode lol
Wait until both Maru and Flash get eliminated.
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On September 27 2013 23:15 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:08 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:49 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:40 vthree wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote:
I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Like he has a choice? Tier 3 Terran is still a huge joke. Tanks are a joke with fast mutas. Mech is counter by swarm hosts and vipers. I guess he can try more 11-11s? Just putting together a tight mid game build that he occasionally deviates to would make him scary as shit. More raxes instead of a 3rd CC, 2 factory helions or even banshee builds. How can you expect to play against people who know your build off by heart. Upgrades, expansion timing, the reaper and hellion timing and the 2 medivac push timing is going to be expected against him every game, because he does it every game. Seriously, if the guy did this build 75% of the time instead of 100% he doesn't 2 rax, people would actually have to do something other than being able to blind counter him. Bogus did change his builds a bit, but the problem is that you can only go so far when your only versatility comes from the number of reactors your fact can make for other buildings. 2-bases timings (2 fact BFH, Marines/Hellions/Medivacs, Hellbats/Marauders, etc.) are all bad against correct Zerg reaction; he does play them a bit from time to time, but mostly against inferior opponents. It's definitely not the build you want to play against a competent opponent when your Code S slot in on the line; praying your opponent doesn't sac an over is too much of a gamble at this level. I'm sorry that makes no sense at all. Doing the same build against stronger opponents and mixing it up against worse opponents is pointless. A weaker opponent will lose to the strong build most of the time, even if they know it's coming. So to mix it up against them, while good, isn't really that effective. Mixing it up against a strong opponent keeps them playing honest and not being able to cut too many corners, which a good opponent is much more likely to take advantage of if presented the opportunity. As it is, if you've watched two games of Innovation, you've basically seen his play style. Every Terran's PlaystyleI really think if you want a good example of a seriously amazing Terran to learn from you need to look at MvP. If you want to look for a strong safe ladder build, look at Innovation. You make it sound like it's only innovation that plays this way. Every terran plays the same build every single time, 3 cc, 2 ebay, rally and win or die trying. Of course there are tiny slight variants, some might open reaper instead of cc first, some may make 1 tank or something, some might go for a hellbat drop, but generally it's all the same, zergs do not really even need to scout, they know what is coming from pretty much any terran, not just innovation.
Watch Bombers games from WCS global final.
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On September 27 2013 23:15 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:10 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 23:06 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:02 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 22:50 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:47 robson1 wrote:
yada yada yada. Terran imba weak.
2013:
Premier tournament wins Terran: 10
Second places in premier tournaments: 3
final appearances: 13
Premier Tournament wins Protoss: 3
Second places in premier tournaments: 7
final appearances: 10
Premier tournament wins Zerg: 5
Second places in premier tournaments: 6
Final appearances: 11
u have to realize , there were some terran nerf inbetween and more nerfs incoming soon, terran was rlly strong before the hellbat nerf cant compare whole 2013 to what it is now -.- Since July Terran won 4 premier tournaments and got 1 second place Zerg won 2 premier tournaments and got 3 second places Protoss got 2 second places how about you look in the situation right now?? how many terrans we got in wcs eu ro8, and innovation the best TvZer loosing tvz left and right lately Would you f*ing look at this chart: http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterInnovation is 8-2 in his last 10 TvZs Innovation is also 7-3 in his last 10 Korean TvZs http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=KR&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterWcS Eu has a pretty weak terran lineup with MVP being waaaaay past his prime and hindered by the online lag. Foreigner Terrans always always always struggled. I think only MMA and ForGG were solid candidates for a Ro8 finish. MvP is way past his prime. Lucifron is slumping right now... the rest of the field is just not that impressive. http://www.aligulac.com/reports/balance/look at the terran performance chart, its been on the decline the whole time, and its only till august, september will be way worse, and terran still gets nerfed in the end, so i guess terran is imba? and stop insulting plz.. I didn't insult anyone. Except the f*cking chart. Also terran is not imba. I just think it's hilarious that Innovation looses like two games and everyone is starting to worry that terran is to weak. The results do not support that at all. Right now the meta is evolving in such a way that terran is doing not all to hot, but that could change in the next 2-3 weeks, who knows.
"Look at this f*ing chart" is an implicit insult, since it's like yelling to the other guy "OMG ARE YOU STUPID LOOK AT MY EVIDENCE". So I guess you did.
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On September 27 2013 23:14 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:49 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:44 bo1b wrote:On September 27 2013 22:42 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:38 TeeTS wrote:On September 27 2013 22:33 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:18 bo1b wrote:
This is the same person who thinks having a separate hotkey for marines/marauders in order to stutter step without losing medivac healing is too hard.
He might be the most amazing player in the universe, but his bias is insane. Oh, hadn't seen this one. How about you go laddering a bit with Terran, and experiment by yourself what happens when you try to manage 3 control groups in a fight lasting 3-4 seconds on average—all while splitting Marines and apparently targetting with Mines, something not even the Code S Terrans manage to do at once despite having 500-550 apm at peaks during engagements? I'm sure you'll do all of this so much better. the thing is, there are several reasons you normally want your medivacs right above the bio. If you put them on a different control group you might get more healing, but they are exposed if you kite back, you lose the option to insta pick up. I rather lose a bit of healing than lose a couple of medivacs or are unable to pick up and leave if nessecary. Plus you don't even need Medivacs on their own groups to micro them away from Marines; what I do, when I want to hit & run without Medivacs dancing awkwardly with Marines, is simply ctrl-click Medivacs, boost them away behind my Marines, and ctrl-click Marines to hit & run. I'm sure I'm not the only one doing that. Then why are you saying that its so hard to have medivacs not in your army control group? Just bizarre. Double click on sc2.exe, F2, 1v1 Terran and you'll figure it out why by yourself once you're familiar with Terran micro in TvZ engagements. You are literally saying that you don't hotkey your medivacs in one sentence, then are arguing that it's too hard to not hotkey your medivacs to me in another.
No, you didn't understand what I wrote. The talk was about Medivacs in a separate control group. Whatever.
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On September 27 2013 23:16 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:15 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:10 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 23:06 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:02 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 22:50 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:47 robson1 wrote:
yada yada yada. Terran imba weak.
2013:
Premier tournament wins Terran: 10
Second places in premier tournaments: 3
final appearances: 13
Premier Tournament wins Protoss: 3
Second places in premier tournaments: 7
final appearances: 10
Premier tournament wins Zerg: 5
Second places in premier tournaments: 6
Final appearances: 11
u have to realize , there were some terran nerf inbetween and more nerfs incoming soon, terran was rlly strong before the hellbat nerf cant compare whole 2013 to what it is now -.- Since July Terran won 4 premier tournaments and got 1 second place Zerg won 2 premier tournaments and got 3 second places Protoss got 2 second places how about you look in the situation right now?? how many terrans we got in wcs eu ro8, and innovation the best TvZer loosing tvz left and right lately Would you f*ing look at this chart: http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterInnovation is 8-2 in his last 10 TvZs Innovation is also 7-3 in his last 10 Korean TvZs http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=KR&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterWcS Eu has a pretty weak terran lineup with MVP being waaaaay past his prime and hindered by the online lag. Foreigner Terrans always always always struggled. I think only MMA and ForGG were solid candidates for a Ro8 finish. MvP is way past his prime. Lucifron is slumping right now... the rest of the field is just not that impressive. http://www.aligulac.com/reports/balance/look at the terran performance chart, its been on the decline the whole time, and its only till august, september will be way worse, and terran still gets nerfed in the end, so i guess terran is imba? and stop insulting plz.. I didn't insult anyone. Except the f*cking chart. Also terran is not imba. I just think it's hilarious that Innovation looses like two games and everyone is starting to worry that terran is to weak. The results do not support that at all. Right now the meta is evolving in such a way that terran is doing not all to hot, but that could change in the next 2-3 weeks, who knows. "Look at this f*ing chart" is an implicit insult, since it's like yelling to the other guy "OMG ARE YOU STUPID LOOK AT MY EVIDENCE". So I guess you did.
Lol. Implicit Insult. People are touchy these days. I (sincerely) apologize to everyone who was offended by swearing at the chart.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On September 27 2013 23:16 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:14 lichter wrote:
I just knew this thread would explode lol Wait until both Maru and Flash get eliminated.
This is Flash's best chance to win something in SC2 so he'd better not
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On September 27 2013 23:15 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:10 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 23:06 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:02 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 22:50 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:47 robson1 wrote:
yada yada yada. Terran imba weak.
2013:
Premier tournament wins Terran: 10
Second places in premier tournaments: 3
final appearances: 13
Premier Tournament wins Protoss: 3
Second places in premier tournaments: 7
final appearances: 10
Premier tournament wins Zerg: 5
Second places in premier tournaments: 6
Final appearances: 11
u have to realize , there were some terran nerf inbetween and more nerfs incoming soon, terran was rlly strong before the hellbat nerf cant compare whole 2013 to what it is now -.- Since July Terran won 4 premier tournaments and got 1 second place Zerg won 2 premier tournaments and got 3 second places Protoss got 2 second places how about you look in the situation right now?? how many terrans we got in wcs eu ro8, and innovation the best TvZer loosing tvz left and right lately Would you f*ing look at this chart: http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterInnovation is 8-2 in his last 10 TvZs Innovation is also 7-3 in his last 10 Korean TvZs http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=KR&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterWcS Eu has a pretty weak terran lineup with MVP being waaaaay past his prime and hindered by the online lag. Foreigner Terrans always always always struggled. I think only MMA and ForGG were solid candidates for a Ro8 finish. MvP is way past his prime. Lucifron is slumping right now... the rest of the field is just not that impressive. http://www.aligulac.com/reports/balance/look at the terran performance chart, its been on the decline the whole time, and its only till august, september will be way worse, and terran still gets nerfed in the end, so i guess terran is imba? and stop insulting plz.. I didn't insult anyone. Except the f*cking chart. Also terran is not imba. I just think it's hilarious that Innovation looses like two games and everyone is starting to worry that terran is to weak. The results do not support that at all. Right now the meta is evolving in such a way that terran is doing not all to hot, but that could change in the next 2-3 weeks, who knows.
what did u tried to prove with your flashy terran got that many wins in premier league numbers, if not trying to convince us that terran is indeed still imba?
nvm im out now bb 
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On September 27 2013 23:16 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:15 AxionSteel wrote:On September 27 2013 23:08 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:49 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:40 vthree wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote:
I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Like he has a choice? Tier 3 Terran is still a huge joke. Tanks are a joke with fast mutas. Mech is counter by swarm hosts and vipers. I guess he can try more 11-11s? Just putting together a tight mid game build that he occasionally deviates to would make him scary as shit. More raxes instead of a 3rd CC, 2 factory helions or even banshee builds. How can you expect to play against people who know your build off by heart. Upgrades, expansion timing, the reaper and hellion timing and the 2 medivac push timing is going to be expected against him every game, because he does it every game. Seriously, if the guy did this build 75% of the time instead of 100% he doesn't 2 rax, people would actually have to do something other than being able to blind counter him. Bogus did change his builds a bit, but the problem is that you can only go so far when your only versatility comes from the number of reactors your fact can make for other buildings. 2-bases timings (2 fact BFH, Marines/Hellions/Medivacs, Hellbats/Marauders, etc.) are all bad against correct Zerg reaction; he does play them a bit from time to time, but mostly against inferior opponents. It's definitely not the build you want to play against a competent opponent when your Code S slot in on the line; praying your opponent doesn't sac an over is too much of a gamble at this level. I'm sorry that makes no sense at all. Doing the same build against stronger opponents and mixing it up against worse opponents is pointless. A weaker opponent will lose to the strong build most of the time, even if they know it's coming. So to mix it up against them, while good, isn't really that effective. Mixing it up against a strong opponent keeps them playing honest and not being able to cut too many corners, which a good opponent is much more likely to take advantage of if presented the opportunity. As it is, if you've watched two games of Innovation, you've basically seen his play style. Every Terran's PlaystyleI really think if you want a good example of a seriously amazing Terran to learn from you need to look at MvP. If you want to look for a strong safe ladder build, look at Innovation. You make it sound like it's only innovation that plays this way. Every terran plays the same build every single time, 3 cc, 2 ebay, rally and win or die trying. Of course there are tiny slight variants, some might open reaper instead of cc first, some may make 1 tank or something, some might go for a hellbat drop, but generally it's all the same, zergs do not really even need to scout, they know what is coming from pretty much any terran, not just innovation. Watch Bombers games from WCS global final.
CS timings are a thing of the past, it only worked because neither Jaedong nor Scarlett bothered to poke with or sac an over...
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On September 27 2013 23:15 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:08 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:49 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:40 vthree wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote:
I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Like he has a choice? Tier 3 Terran is still a huge joke. Tanks are a joke with fast mutas. Mech is counter by swarm hosts and vipers. I guess he can try more 11-11s? Just putting together a tight mid game build that he occasionally deviates to would make him scary as shit. More raxes instead of a 3rd CC, 2 factory helions or even banshee builds. How can you expect to play against people who know your build off by heart. Upgrades, expansion timing, the reaper and hellion timing and the 2 medivac push timing is going to be expected against him every game, because he does it every game. Seriously, if the guy did this build 75% of the time instead of 100% he doesn't 2 rax, people would actually have to do something other than being able to blind counter him. Bogus did change his builds a bit, but the problem is that you can only go so far when your only versatility comes from the number of reactors your fact can make for other buildings. 2-bases timings (2 fact BFH, Marines/Hellions/Medivacs, Hellbats/Marauders, etc.) are all bad against correct Zerg reaction; he does play them a bit from time to time, but mostly against inferior opponents. It's definitely not the build you want to play against a competent opponent when your Code S slot in on the line; praying your opponent doesn't sac an over is too much of a gamble at this level. I'm sorry that makes no sense at all. Doing the same build against stronger opponents and mixing it up against worse opponents is pointless. A weaker opponent will lose to the strong build most of the time, even if they know it's coming. So to mix it up against them, while good, isn't really that effective. Mixing it up against a strong opponent keeps them playing honest and not being able to cut too many corners, which a good opponent is much more likely to take advantage of if presented the opportunity. As it is, if you've watched two games of Innovation, you've basically seen his play style. Every Terran's PlaystyleI really think if you want a good example of a seriously amazing Terran to learn from you need to look at MvP. If you want to look for a strong safe ladder build, look at Innovation. You make it sound like it's only innovation that plays this way. Every terran plays the same build every single time, 3 cc, 2 ebay, rally and win or die trying. Of course there are tiny slight variants, some might open reaper instead of cc first, some may make 1 tank or something, some might go for a hellbat drop, but generally it's all the same, zergs do not really even need to scout, they know what is coming from pretty much any terran, not just innovation.
He's the most infamous player for doing the same build every single TvZ. Not everyone else has that kind of reputation or is that popular and have that many broadcasted games to study from. Also are you really saying you don't ever see Terrans deviate from the normal 3cc build or do you only watch Innovation games?
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On September 27 2013 23:16 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:14 lichter wrote:
I just knew this thread would explode lol Wait until both Maru and Flash get eliminated.
Tomorrow is PartinG + Flash.
It could be PartinG+Maru but we kind of need him gone to get Naniwa to blizzcon, so it will be Parting + Flash.
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Happy for soO he is doing well in both BW and SC and is very consistent sad for Super he had the chance to win the whole WCS.
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On September 27 2013 23:21 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:15 AxionSteel wrote:On September 27 2013 23:08 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:49 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:40 vthree wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote:
I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Like he has a choice? Tier 3 Terran is still a huge joke. Tanks are a joke with fast mutas. Mech is counter by swarm hosts and vipers. I guess he can try more 11-11s? Just putting together a tight mid game build that he occasionally deviates to would make him scary as shit. More raxes instead of a 3rd CC, 2 factory helions or even banshee builds. How can you expect to play against people who know your build off by heart. Upgrades, expansion timing, the reaper and hellion timing and the 2 medivac push timing is going to be expected against him every game, because he does it every game. Seriously, if the guy did this build 75% of the time instead of 100% he doesn't 2 rax, people would actually have to do something other than being able to blind counter him. Bogus did change his builds a bit, but the problem is that you can only go so far when your only versatility comes from the number of reactors your fact can make for other buildings. 2-bases timings (2 fact BFH, Marines/Hellions/Medivacs, Hellbats/Marauders, etc.) are all bad against correct Zerg reaction; he does play them a bit from time to time, but mostly against inferior opponents. It's definitely not the build you want to play against a competent opponent when your Code S slot in on the line; praying your opponent doesn't sac an over is too much of a gamble at this level. I'm sorry that makes no sense at all. Doing the same build against stronger opponents and mixing it up against worse opponents is pointless. A weaker opponent will lose to the strong build most of the time, even if they know it's coming. So to mix it up against them, while good, isn't really that effective. Mixing it up against a strong opponent keeps them playing honest and not being able to cut too many corners, which a good opponent is much more likely to take advantage of if presented the opportunity. As it is, if you've watched two games of Innovation, you've basically seen his play style. Every Terran's PlaystyleI really think if you want a good example of a seriously amazing Terran to learn from you need to look at MvP. If you want to look for a strong safe ladder build, look at Innovation. You make it sound like it's only innovation that plays this way. Every terran plays the same build every single time, 3 cc, 2 ebay, rally and win or die trying. Of course there are tiny slight variants, some might open reaper instead of cc first, some may make 1 tank or something, some might go for a hellbat drop, but generally it's all the same, zergs do not really even need to scout, they know what is coming from pretty much any terran, not just innovation. He's the most infamous player for doing the same build every single TvZ. Not everyone else has that kind of reputation or is that popular and have that many broadcasted games to study from. Also are you really saying you don't ever see Terrans deviate from the normal 3cc build or do you only watch Innovation games?
What you don't understand is that if you want to deviate, you have to use inferior builds which thus up put you in an inferior position. If you struggle to win with the most optimal build, what will happen when you use an inferior one?
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On September 27 2013 23:21 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:16 NicksonReyes wrote:On September 27 2013 23:14 lichter wrote:
I just knew this thread would explode lol Wait until both Maru and Flash get eliminated. Tomorrow is PartinG + Flash. It could be PartinG+Maru but we kind of need him gone to get Naniwa to blizzcon, so it will be Parting + Flash.
TL calendar says it's in one day and 14 hours, is it a mistake?
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On September 27 2013 23:19 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:16 boxerfred wrote:On September 27 2013 23:15 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:10 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 23:06 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:02 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 22:50 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:47 robson1 wrote:
yada yada yada. Terran imba weak.
2013:
Premier tournament wins Terran: 10
Second places in premier tournaments: 3
final appearances: 13
Premier Tournament wins Protoss: 3
Second places in premier tournaments: 7
final appearances: 10
Premier tournament wins Zerg: 5
Second places in premier tournaments: 6
Final appearances: 11
u have to realize , there were some terran nerf inbetween and more nerfs incoming soon, terran was rlly strong before the hellbat nerf cant compare whole 2013 to what it is now -.- Since July Terran won 4 premier tournaments and got 1 second place Zerg won 2 premier tournaments and got 3 second places Protoss got 2 second places how about you look in the situation right now?? how many terrans we got in wcs eu ro8, and innovation the best TvZer loosing tvz left and right lately Would you f*ing look at this chart: http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterInnovation is 8-2 in his last 10 TvZs Innovation is also 7-3 in his last 10 Korean TvZs http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=KR&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterWcS Eu has a pretty weak terran lineup with MVP being waaaaay past his prime and hindered by the online lag. Foreigner Terrans always always always struggled. I think only MMA and ForGG were solid candidates for a Ro8 finish. MvP is way past his prime. Lucifron is slumping right now... the rest of the field is just not that impressive. http://www.aligulac.com/reports/balance/look at the terran performance chart, its been on the decline the whole time, and its only till august, september will be way worse, and terran still gets nerfed in the end, so i guess terran is imba? and stop insulting plz.. I didn't insult anyone. Except the f*cking chart. Also terran is not imba. I just think it's hilarious that Innovation looses like two games and everyone is starting to worry that terran is to weak. The results do not support that at all. Right now the meta is evolving in such a way that terran is doing not all to hot, but that could change in the next 2-3 weeks, who knows. "Look at this f*ing chart" is an implicit insult, since it's like yelling to the other guy "OMG ARE YOU STUPID LOOK AT MY EVIDENCE". So I guess you did. Lol. Implicit Insult. People are touchy these days. I (sincerely) apologize to everyone who was offended by swearing at the chart.
And that's a hidden one, like whispering to your bro "omg that pussy, he's feelin' insulted LOL"  .
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On September 27 2013 23:22 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:21 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 23:15 AxionSteel wrote:On September 27 2013 23:08 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:49 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:40 vthree wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote:
I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Like he has a choice? Tier 3 Terran is still a huge joke. Tanks are a joke with fast mutas. Mech is counter by swarm hosts and vipers. I guess he can try more 11-11s? Just putting together a tight mid game build that he occasionally deviates to would make him scary as shit. More raxes instead of a 3rd CC, 2 factory helions or even banshee builds. How can you expect to play against people who know your build off by heart. Upgrades, expansion timing, the reaper and hellion timing and the 2 medivac push timing is going to be expected against him every game, because he does it every game. Seriously, if the guy did this build 75% of the time instead of 100% he doesn't 2 rax, people would actually have to do something other than being able to blind counter him. Bogus did change his builds a bit, but the problem is that you can only go so far when your only versatility comes from the number of reactors your fact can make for other buildings. 2-bases timings (2 fact BFH, Marines/Hellions/Medivacs, Hellbats/Marauders, etc.) are all bad against correct Zerg reaction; he does play them a bit from time to time, but mostly against inferior opponents. It's definitely not the build you want to play against a competent opponent when your Code S slot in on the line; praying your opponent doesn't sac an over is too much of a gamble at this level. I'm sorry that makes no sense at all. Doing the same build against stronger opponents and mixing it up against worse opponents is pointless. A weaker opponent will lose to the strong build most of the time, even if they know it's coming. So to mix it up against them, while good, isn't really that effective. Mixing it up against a strong opponent keeps them playing honest and not being able to cut too many corners, which a good opponent is much more likely to take advantage of if presented the opportunity. As it is, if you've watched two games of Innovation, you've basically seen his play style. Every Terran's PlaystyleI really think if you want a good example of a seriously amazing Terran to learn from you need to look at MvP. If you want to look for a strong safe ladder build, look at Innovation. You make it sound like it's only innovation that plays this way. Every terran plays the same build every single time, 3 cc, 2 ebay, rally and win or die trying. Of course there are tiny slight variants, some might open reaper instead of cc first, some may make 1 tank or something, some might go for a hellbat drop, but generally it's all the same, zergs do not really even need to scout, they know what is coming from pretty much any terran, not just innovation. He's the most infamous player for doing the same build every single TvZ. Not everyone else has that kind of reputation or is that popular and have that many broadcasted games to study from. Also are you really saying you don't ever see Terrans deviate from the normal 3cc build or do you only watch Innovation games? What you don't understand is that if you want to deviate, you have to use inferior builds which thus up put you in an inferior position. If you struggle to win with the most optimal build, what will happen when you use an inferior one?
Seriously, since when has playing an inferior build always been the wrong choice? Again, predictability is a much bigger weakness than choosing a build that is inferior.
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EPT
