|
soO very gosu i hope ppl start realizing that.
|
On September 27 2013 23:11 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:59 -Celestial- wrote:On September 27 2013 22:38 dreamseller wrote:On September 27 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:31 AxionSteel wrote:On September 27 2013 22:27 klup wrote:
But honnestly i don't see how terran can get rid of 4M with the dominance of mutas in this matchup. Mines are one soft counter for mutas and besides thor that can be magicboxed really easily there are no answer in the terran arsenal to mass mutas as protoss have with phenix. yeh i think that's as big a reason as any why the zerg win percentage has gone way up, really heavy mutalisk styles are coming in, upwords of 30. It's so hard to hold expansions in the late game vs so many mutas. I know people have always been going mutas in hots, but maybe not quite so many as they are getting these days. Correct. Zergs used to try to get away with hive behind 10-20 mutas, while the right approach is to mass as many mutas as possible (naturally you can go Hive earlier if the previous engagements went well, as soO did for instance this game) to defend Terran's pushes and then rampage his bases when he's stretched thin after taking his fourth. I note a complete absence of a solid counter argument to this, which makes me fearful that you are right and the nerfs put Terran back to the dark ages. Mvp is in no shape to save the race these days Which "Terran Dark Ages" are these? That Mvp apparently had to "save the race" from? You mean the Dark Ages of 2010 when Terran consistently had comparable numbers or more in the GSL Open Seasons as other races? The Dark Ages of 2011 GOMTvT? Or perhaps the Dark Ages of 2012 where, despite Broodlord/Infestor winning through and helping Zerg to take most of the titles, Terran had more players in Code S every season than either Protoss or Zerg? Argue about whether or not the mine changes they're planning on testing out are warranted or not all you like. But stop trying to play the victim. Allow me to pull this around for you. According to your argumentation right now there is no Terran dominance, because in WCS Korea, Terran is the least representated race.
9>11? There were 11 Terrans and 9 Zerg in Code S this season.
On September 28 2013 02:07 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 00:05 samurai80 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:22 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 23:21 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 23:15 AxionSteel wrote:On September 27 2013 23:08 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:49 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:40 vthree wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote:
I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Like he has a choice? Tier 3 Terran is still a huge joke. Tanks are a joke with fast mutas. Mech is counter by swarm hosts and vipers. I guess he can try more 11-11s? Just putting together a tight mid game build that he occasionally deviates to would make him scary as shit. More raxes instead of a 3rd CC, 2 factory helions or even banshee builds. How can you expect to play against people who know your build off by heart. Upgrades, expansion timing, the reaper and hellion timing and the 2 medivac push timing is going to be expected against him every game, because he does it every game. Seriously, if the guy did this build 75% of the time instead of 100% he doesn't 2 rax, people would actually have to do something other than being able to blind counter him. Bogus did change his builds a bit, but the problem is that you can only go so far when your only versatility comes from the number of reactors your fact can make for other buildings. 2-bases timings (2 fact BFH, Marines/Hellions/Medivacs, Hellbats/Marauders, etc.) are all bad against correct Zerg reaction; he does play them a bit from time to time, but mostly against inferior opponents. It's definitely not the build you want to play against a competent opponent when your Code S slot in on the line; praying your opponent doesn't sac an over is too much of a gamble at this level. I'm sorry that makes no sense at all. Doing the same build against stronger opponents and mixing it up against worse opponents is pointless. A weaker opponent will lose to the strong build most of the time, even if they know it's coming. So to mix it up against them, while good, isn't really that effective. Mixing it up against a strong opponent keeps them playing honest and not being able to cut too many corners, which a good opponent is much more likely to take advantage of if presented the opportunity. As it is, if you've watched two games of Innovation, you've basically seen his play style. Every Terran's PlaystyleI really think if you want a good example of a seriously amazing Terran to learn from you need to look at MvP. If you want to look for a strong safe ladder build, look at Innovation. You make it sound like it's only innovation that plays this way. Every terran plays the same build every single time, 3 cc, 2 ebay, rally and win or die trying. Of course there are tiny slight variants, some might open reaper instead of cc first, some may make 1 tank or something, some might go for a hellbat drop, but generally it's all the same, zergs do not really even need to scout, they know what is coming from pretty much any terran, not just innovation. He's the most infamous player for doing the same build every single TvZ. Not everyone else has that kind of reputation or is that popular and have that many broadcasted games to study from. Also are you really saying you don't ever see Terrans deviate from the normal 3cc build or do you only watch Innovation games? What you don't understand is that if you want to deviate, you have to use inferior builds which thus up put you in an inferior position. If you struggle to win with the most optimal build, what will happen when you use an inferior one? I still think that having a few "slightly weak builds" is better than to have one strong build. At least after the strong one is figured out, which always end up happening. Now I don't say Innovation wasn't right doing mainly his strong build, he had actually an insane winrate. But now if he's getting beaten and his build figured out, I guess the answer is to find a few other builds, even if they're weaker. This doesn't make much sense. Zergs are still playing the same comp 90% of the time (ling, bling, muta) vs 4M. If it was a composition hard counter, then maybe changing styles help. But since 4M was made to counter ling, bling, mutas, not sure if changing his style will help. The best he can try to do it coin flip timings that he hopes doesn't get scouted.
The problem with INnoVation is really that everyone studied his exact timings and therefore know how to counter these. With pure superior macro, nobody will ever dominate for a long time, because Starcraft 2 just doesn't work this way. MVP was as successful as he was, because his style wasn't as predictable as INnoVations.
I'm not saying that INnoVation won't win again - but I think he really needs to do something against his predictability.
... and there's still the problem with his rather poor defense against some Z-All-ins, which definitely don't make it easier for him.
... and then there's the mental aspect, he lost quite often lately and you can't really expect that these losses don't affect him at all.
|
T.O.P
469 Posts
|
Wow jjakji made it.Cant wait to see the vods
|
Jjakji and soO. O_o My liquibets are dead
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 28 2013 02:37 MajOr wrote:soO very gosu i hope ppl start realizing that.
He is SKT zerg, he is always OP when you do not want him to.
|
|
|
On September 28 2013 04:06 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 02:37 MajOr wrote:soO very gosu i hope ppl start realizing that. He is SKT zerg, he is always OP when you do not want him to.
You mispelled KT Zerg
|
as expected, moving to a foreign team, inno can't cope anymore  ((
|
Jjakji! This is really starting to resemble his original run where he just comes out of nowhere and wins...
wtf Bogus? ccccombo breaker on the ro8 for him. Soulkey is grinning somewhere...
why won't you die soO -_-
|
On September 28 2013 05:20 esdf wrote:as expected, moving to a foreign team, inno can't cope anymore ((
Yeah, because the 3 weeks practice in Axioms house sure made him bad. Getting second at Dreamhack sure is a sign of getting worse
|
Super and Innovation out?????
It's a sad day....
Then again, I'm always happy when SKT does well.....
|
Unexpected... I predicted Innovation and Soo. O_O
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 28 2013 05:17 VManOfMana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 04:06 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 28 2013 02:37 MajOr wrote:soO very gosu i hope ppl start realizing that. He is SKT zerg, he is always OP when you do not want him to. You mispelled KT Zerg
KT zergs are known to be thrown out of the window, huh , so do not count. Also, i think the actual problem with Innovation is overpractice at the moment. Guy needs to relax :D
|
Just caught up on the Jjaki games. So happy to see him make a Round of 8. The change of teams is clearly doing wonders for him. It wasn't an epic series by any means, but I really enjoyed the Innovation series, and the way Jjaki dismantled Innovation with wonderfully crafty play and positioning.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 28 2013 06:41 Chill Penguin wrote:
Just caught up on the Jjaki games. So happy to see him make a Round of 8. The change of teams is clearly doing wonders for him. It wasn't an epic series by any means, but I really enjoyed the Innovation series, and the way Jjaki dismantled Innovation with wonderfully crafty play and positioning.
Hey, jjakji is always pleasure to watch :D
|
|
|
The overseer speed buff did a lot more to help zerg than most people care to realize. Overseers are SO much easier to retain now with mutalisks, so zergs are fighting way more efficiently the longer the game goes on, and can spend income and larvae on a lot more essential fighting units.
|
On September 28 2013 06:33 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 05:17 VManOfMana wrote:On September 28 2013 04:06 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 28 2013 02:37 MajOr wrote:soO very gosu i hope ppl start realizing that. He is SKT zerg, he is always OP when you do not want him to. You mispelled KT Zerg KT zergs are known to be thrown out of the window, huh , so do not count. Also, i think the actual problem with Innovation is overpractice at the moment. Guy needs to relax :D
Wow, the only skt zerg doing well is soo and you say skt zergs are always OP when you do not want them to(Hyuk and Sacsri OP) and say kt zergs, who had history of being clutch as FUCK, are known to be thrown out of the window? FUNNY
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 28 2013 08:42 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 06:33 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 28 2013 05:17 VManOfMana wrote:On September 28 2013 04:06 lolfail9001 wrote:On September 28 2013 02:37 MajOr wrote:soO very gosu i hope ppl start realizing that. He is SKT zerg, he is always OP when you do not want him to. You mispelled KT Zerg KT zergs are known to be thrown out of the window, huh , so do not count. Also, i think the actual problem with Innovation is overpractice at the moment. Guy needs to relax :D Wow, the only skt zerg doing well is soo and you say skt zergs are always OP when you do not want them to(Hyuk and Sacsri OP) and say kt zergs, who had history of being clutch as FUCK, are known to be thrown out of the window? FUNNY
Sacsri 2-1'd Innovation before it was fancy :D.
Also, kt zergs as much as they were clutch in BW, are not really ones in SC2 (no liek the game = no clutch, yes).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
