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On September 27 2013 23:24 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:19 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:16 boxerfred wrote:On September 27 2013 23:15 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:10 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 23:06 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:02 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 22:50 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:47 robson1 wrote: yada yada yada. Terran imba weak.
2013: Premier tournament wins Terran: 10 Second places in premier tournaments: 3 final appearances: 13
Premier Tournament wins Protoss: 3 Second places in premier tournaments: 7 final appearances: 10
Premier tournament wins Zerg: 5 Second places in premier tournaments: 6 Final appearances: 11
u have to realize , there were some terran nerf inbetween and more nerfs incoming soon, terran was rlly strong before the hellbat nerf cant compare whole 2013 to what it is now -.- Since July Terran won 4 premier tournaments and got 1 second place Zerg won 2 premier tournaments and got 3 second places Protoss got 2 second places how about you look in the situation right now?? how many terrans we got in wcs eu ro8, and innovation the best TvZer loosing tvz left and right lately Would you f*ing look at this chart: http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterInnovation is 8-2 in his last 10 TvZs Innovation is also 7-3 in his last 10 Korean TvZs http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=KR&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterWcS Eu has a pretty weak terran lineup with MVP being waaaaay past his prime and hindered by the online lag. Foreigner Terrans always always always struggled. I think only MMA and ForGG were solid candidates for a Ro8 finish. MvP is way past his prime. Lucifron is slumping right now... the rest of the field is just not that impressive. http://www.aligulac.com/reports/balance/look at the terran performance chart, its been on the decline the whole time, and its only till august, september will be way worse, and terran still gets nerfed in the end, so i guess terran is imba? and stop insulting plz.. I didn't insult anyone. Except the f*cking chart. Also terran is not imba. I just think it's hilarious that Innovation looses like two games and everyone is starting to worry that terran is to weak. The results do not support that at all. Right now the meta is evolving in such a way that terran is doing not all to hot, but that could change in the next 2-3 weeks, who knows. "Look at this f*ing chart" is an implicit insult, since it's like yelling to the other guy "OMG ARE YOU STUPID LOOK AT MY EVIDENCE". So I guess you did. Lol. Implicit Insult. People are touchy these days. I (sincerely) apologize to everyone who was offended by swearing at the chart. And that's a hidden one, like whispering to your bro "omg that pussy, he's feelin' insulted LOL" .
You're amazing.
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On September 27 2013 23:24 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:21 Nebuchad wrote:On September 27 2013 23:16 NicksonReyes wrote:On September 27 2013 23:14 lichter wrote: I just knew this thread would explode lol Wait until both Maru and Flash get eliminated. Tomorrow is PartinG + Flash. It could be PartinG+Maru but we kind of need him gone to get Naniwa to blizzcon, so it will be Parting + Flash. TL calendar says it's in one day and 14 hours, is it a mistake?
I just wasn't thinking, sry
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On September 27 2013 23:26 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:24 boxerfred wrote:On September 27 2013 23:19 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:16 boxerfred wrote:On September 27 2013 23:15 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:10 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 23:06 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:02 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 22:50 Killmouse wrote: [quote] u have to realize , there were some terran nerf inbetween and more nerfs incoming soon, terran was rlly strong before the hellbat nerf
cant compare whole 2013 to what it is now -.- Since July Terran won 4 premier tournaments and got 1 second place Zerg won 2 premier tournaments and got 3 second places Protoss got 2 second places how about you look in the situation right now?? how many terrans we got in wcs eu ro8, and innovation the best TvZer loosing tvz left and right lately Would you f*ing look at this chart: http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterInnovation is 8-2 in his last 10 TvZs Innovation is also 7-3 in his last 10 Korean TvZs http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=KR&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterWcS Eu has a pretty weak terran lineup with MVP being waaaaay past his prime and hindered by the online lag. Foreigner Terrans always always always struggled. I think only MMA and ForGG were solid candidates for a Ro8 finish. MvP is way past his prime. Lucifron is slumping right now... the rest of the field is just not that impressive. http://www.aligulac.com/reports/balance/look at the terran performance chart, its been on the decline the whole time, and its only till august, september will be way worse, and terran still gets nerfed in the end, so i guess terran is imba? and stop insulting plz.. I didn't insult anyone. Except the f*cking chart. Also terran is not imba. I just think it's hilarious that Innovation looses like two games and everyone is starting to worry that terran is to weak. The results do not support that at all. Right now the meta is evolving in such a way that terran is doing not all to hot, but that could change in the next 2-3 weeks, who knows. "Look at this f*ing chart" is an implicit insult, since it's like yelling to the other guy "OMG ARE YOU STUPID LOOK AT MY EVIDENCE". So I guess you did. Lol. Implicit Insult. People are touchy these days. I (sincerely) apologize to everyone who was offended by swearing at the chart. And that's a hidden one, like whispering to your bro "omg that pussy, he's feelin' insulted LOL" . You're amazing. Political correctness is the most retarded thing sometimes.
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On September 27 2013 23:02 boxerfred wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:28 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 22:23 boxerfred wrote:On September 27 2013 22:19 myminerals wrote:On September 27 2013 22:15 boxerfred wrote: okay, I'll stop rooting for individual players. there's no consistency at all (that means, that a pro is at least a year top notch, god dammit!), except for symbol. no wait..
i'll just quit watching sc2. not having fun anymore, and since fun and entertainment is the only real reason for me to watch the game instead of playing it, that should be enough as a justification. There is no a single consistent player in SC2 these days. There are many good players, but noone truly dominates. I'd say Taeja, but he got really good only recently and who knows for how long. Yep, that's the point! I mean, you can either love a guy for his personality, or for his playstyle, or for his pure skill. Maybe I forgot another criteria, so remind me of it if it comes to your mind. so, where in korea do you find a player with personality apart from MC and two or three more? And with personality, I do not mean failing a champagne pull at dreamhack, or saying "cheer for me" in bad english. I am sure those korean players do have a personality of course, but since they're not showing it, I can't choose any of them. So, let's now go for playstyle - I loved Life's ling micro (beginning of HotS, MLG Life vs Flash...aaaawww, I loved that series), and I enjoy his aggressive style. That's why I am a Life fan. But I do not get to see much of him lately.. or let's say, nothing motivating. For Protoss, I went for LiquidHerO, because HerOvZ is just fun. Storm drops all the way, I remember matches on Entombed Valley vs, I think, Curious? Not sure. But hey, he's at least kind-of consistent in reaching WCS AM ro8's - no, wait. So my last pick of favs was Innovation, I completely jumped on the hype train and was stunned by his TvZ performance. Okay, it seems to be over now. So what to do, repick? Lolno. Hey you guys. I'm only a fan if you're doing amazingly well right at this second. If you're not I don't care anymore. Since my "favorites" are not good right now, i'll stop watching Sc2 at all. That's a one-sided way to read my post, since I pointed out that I'm still a Life fan, though he's not that good at this point. Are started being a Life fan when the ZenEX team kind-of-joined with Startale. The same goes for HerO, I'm a HerO-fan since I am watching SC2. Of course you're totally right about Innovation, as I said, I jumped the train. I can only say what my experience is - and my experience is that I do want my favourite players to win! If they don't, after a longer time (and I guess you can consider half a year, or, let's say a year as a long time in SC2), I feel disappointed. And if they're not compensating their slump with e.g. a nice personality, some interesting interviews, fan interaction, showmatches, playing funmaps on stream, what-fucking-ever-they-can-even-pull-an-apollo-god-dammit - there will be a point where I do not enjoy watching them anymore. I clearly am NOT a superfan. As many people are. And if the person you really like doesn't do well, and you see that he's not losing to the next long-term dominating guy, but to the next guy who'll be top notch 'only' for 1-3 months and then fall apart (or even flukes as Sniper's code S win..), then I don't get the idea of cheering for anyone anymore, if it's not for personality. If you read my words, I'm clearly saying that I'm whining about the general lack of consistency, and NOT about my favourites getting stomped or losing or whatever. Check the WCS Global Finals from S1 to S2 to the upcoming S3, there are a lot of different players. You would expect out of 8 players that at least 50% will make it back, wouldn't you? I don't think that this was the case so far (didn't check my facts on that, maybe I'm wrong). If you compare the Ro8's of each tournament to their predecessors, you will find even more variation. And I am simply saying that I do not like that. If you like it, it's okay for me - but I do not like it, so I will definitely reduce the amount of viewing tournaments. Let's say, I'll become a casual SC2 viewer, not a "oh fuck I have to work but it's Code S so I just hope I can sneak a peak into the stream and at least follow the LR". tl;dr I don't disagree with what you say and explain why.
It is how both SC BW and SC2 work. The explanation is that when the player is unknown but has the potential (Sniper, Maru, jjakji, Seed SC2, Mind, Hydra, EffOrt, ForGG BW) they have the advantage because the better players on paper at a time do not take them at full seriousness (in winners interview they say I did not expect this guy would do so well, I practiced as usual) but these underdogs practice for their games much more and know their opponents much more (a lot of VODs) so they win AND THEN when they won a title the other players (former star players) start to practice at full seriousness too and we see these underdogs losing like it happened to Seed, jjakji, Sniper, Mvp etc. It is how it works and will always do.
The recent example is Sora if player do not take him serious he gonna easily get Code S but his opponent is Curious who he beat at WCG so the chance of Sora making Code S is small now coz Curios will prepare at full for his match.
There are players like RagnaroK and Hurricane who could win GSL but it took them to long to qualify and they became good in team leagues and due to it everyone practiced for them with concentrated mindset not relaxed.
For example when I watched Sniper play I saw that he can comeback from any situation at that time that is why I enjoyed his play but other players seem to not paying attention to his play and practiced as usual and tried to win without showing full power which cost them losing groups and being eliminated.
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On September 27 2013 23:28 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:26 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:24 boxerfred wrote:On September 27 2013 23:19 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:16 boxerfred wrote:On September 27 2013 23:15 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:10 Killmouse wrote:http://www.aligulac.com/reports/balance/look at the terran performance chart, its been on the decline the whole time, and its only till august, september will be way worse, and terran still gets nerfed in the end, so i guess terran is imba? and stop insulting plz.. I didn't insult anyone. Except the f*cking chart. Also terran is not imba. I just think it's hilarious that Innovation looses like two games and everyone is starting to worry that terran is to weak. The results do not support that at all. Right now the meta is evolving in such a way that terran is doing not all to hot, but that could change in the next 2-3 weeks, who knows. "Look at this f*ing chart" is an implicit insult, since it's like yelling to the other guy "OMG ARE YOU STUPID LOOK AT MY EVIDENCE". So I guess you did. Lol. Implicit Insult. People are touchy these days. I (sincerely) apologize to everyone who was offended by swearing at the chart. And that's a hidden one, like whispering to your bro "omg that pussy, he's feelin' insulted LOL" . You're amazing. Political correctness is the most retarded thing sometimes. "Your f*cking chart" may be a little rude but it's not an insult imho.
Now to come back to the subject, I think all these second places taken by protoss while they were often doing well until the end of the group stages has pissed their fans off a bit this year. First of all I agree it's not representative of an overall game balance, which is not as bad imo. On the other hand I do think it is really frustrating for protoss and zerg fans to not get to see their favorite players/races win a tournament.
So overall imbalance: probably not that much Frustration for zergs/protoss fans : probably yes
Now I think these frustrated fans (including myself) need to refrain from expressing this frustration into anger/bashing/etc... Easier to say than to do though :/
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On September 27 2013 22:59 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:38 dreamseller wrote:On September 27 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:31 AxionSteel wrote:On September 27 2013 22:27 klup wrote:
But honnestly i don't see how terran can get rid of 4M with the dominance of mutas in this matchup. Mines are one soft counter for mutas and besides thor that can be magicboxed really easily there are no answer in the terran arsenal to mass mutas as protoss have with phenix. yeh i think that's as big a reason as any why the zerg win percentage has gone way up, really heavy mutalisk styles are coming in, upwords of 30. It's so hard to hold expansions in the late game vs so many mutas. I know people have always been going mutas in hots, but maybe not quite so many as they are getting these days. Correct. Zergs used to try to get away with hive behind 10-20 mutas, while the right approach is to mass as many mutas as possible (naturally you can go Hive earlier if the previous engagements went well, as soO did for instance this game) to defend Terran's pushes and then rampage his bases when he's stretched thin after taking his fourth. I note a complete absence of a solid counter argument to this, which makes me fearful that you are right and the nerfs put Terran back to the dark ages. Mvp is in no shape to save the race these days Which "Terran Dark Ages" are these? That Mvp apparently had to "save the race" from? You mean the Dark Ages of 2010 when Terran consistently had comparable numbers or more in the GSL Open Seasons as other races? The Dark Ages of 2011 GOMTvT? Or perhaps the Dark Ages of 2012 where, despite Broodlord/Infestor winning through and helping Zerg to take most of the titles, Terran had more players in Code S every season than either Protoss or Zerg? Argue about whether or not the mine changes they're planning on testing out are warranted or not all you like. But stop trying to play the victim.
Ah yes thanks I see 2010-2012 = Terran! I see that now.
Just a fear for tvz. The matchup is already predictable, and Zerg appear to have the metagame edge as of writing, and a nerf may come.
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On September 27 2013 23:21 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:15 AxionSteel wrote:On September 27 2013 23:08 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:49 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:40 vthree wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote: I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Like he has a choice? Tier 3 Terran is still a huge joke. Tanks are a joke with fast mutas. Mech is counter by swarm hosts and vipers. I guess he can try more 11-11s? Just putting together a tight mid game build that he occasionally deviates to would make him scary as shit. More raxes instead of a 3rd CC, 2 factory helions or even banshee builds. How can you expect to play against people who know your build off by heart. Upgrades, expansion timing, the reaper and hellion timing and the 2 medivac push timing is going to be expected against him every game, because he does it every game. Seriously, if the guy did this build 75% of the time instead of 100% he doesn't 2 rax, people would actually have to do something other than being able to blind counter him. Bogus did change his builds a bit, but the problem is that you can only go so far when your only versatility comes from the number of reactors your fact can make for other buildings. 2-bases timings (2 fact BFH, Marines/Hellions/Medivacs, Hellbats/Marauders, etc.) are all bad against correct Zerg reaction; he does play them a bit from time to time, but mostly against inferior opponents. It's definitely not the build you want to play against a competent opponent when your Code S slot in on the line; praying your opponent doesn't sac an over is too much of a gamble at this level. I'm sorry that makes no sense at all. Doing the same build against stronger opponents and mixing it up against worse opponents is pointless. A weaker opponent will lose to the strong build most of the time, even if they know it's coming. So to mix it up against them, while good, isn't really that effective. Mixing it up against a strong opponent keeps them playing honest and not being able to cut too many corners, which a good opponent is much more likely to take advantage of if presented the opportunity. As it is, if you've watched two games of Innovation, you've basically seen his play style. Every Terran's PlaystyleI really think if you want a good example of a seriously amazing Terran to learn from you need to look at MvP. If you want to look for a strong safe ladder build, look at Innovation. You make it sound like it's only innovation that plays this way. Every terran plays the same build every single time, 3 cc, 2 ebay, rally and win or die trying. Of course there are tiny slight variants, some might open reaper instead of cc first, some may make 1 tank or something, some might go for a hellbat drop, but generally it's all the same, zergs do not really even need to scout, they know what is coming from pretty much any terran, not just innovation. He's the most infamous player for doing the same build every single TvZ. Not everyone else has that kind of reputation or is that popular and have that many broadcasted games to study from. Also are you really saying you don't ever see Terrans deviate from the normal 3cc build or do you only watch Innovation games? Of course I have. But it's rare. I saw flash try a marauder, hellbat opening twice at dreamhack and fail miserably both times, I predict he'll be going back to 3 cc for his next Zerg matches. Mostly they will go 3 cc. All euro terrans will 3 cc, and most Koreans do too.
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Sigh..........what a bad day for innovation. Oh well, it was just a bad day. He is still the best player in the world. A few losses to DRG, jjakji and soo definitely dont discount that fact.
Anyway, seeing as he is already qualified foe the blizzcon finals, he probably doesnt even care gsl. He's too busy practicing for blizzcon to care about gsl. That's why he lost the osl finals, he had to practice for proleague.
Another reason why he lost was because he was practicing for gstl and he got cheesed out anyway so his mentality might not be that good yet. He's gonna win blizzcon. Quote me on it
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On September 27 2013 23:22 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:21 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 23:15 AxionSteel wrote:On September 27 2013 23:08 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:49 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:40 vthree wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote: I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Like he has a choice? Tier 3 Terran is still a huge joke. Tanks are a joke with fast mutas. Mech is counter by swarm hosts and vipers. I guess he can try more 11-11s? Just putting together a tight mid game build that he occasionally deviates to would make him scary as shit. More raxes instead of a 3rd CC, 2 factory helions or even banshee builds. How can you expect to play against people who know your build off by heart. Upgrades, expansion timing, the reaper and hellion timing and the 2 medivac push timing is going to be expected against him every game, because he does it every game. Seriously, if the guy did this build 75% of the time instead of 100% he doesn't 2 rax, people would actually have to do something other than being able to blind counter him. Bogus did change his builds a bit, but the problem is that you can only go so far when your only versatility comes from the number of reactors your fact can make for other buildings. 2-bases timings (2 fact BFH, Marines/Hellions/Medivacs, Hellbats/Marauders, etc.) are all bad against correct Zerg reaction; he does play them a bit from time to time, but mostly against inferior opponents. It's definitely not the build you want to play against a competent opponent when your Code S slot in on the line; praying your opponent doesn't sac an over is too much of a gamble at this level. I'm sorry that makes no sense at all. Doing the same build against stronger opponents and mixing it up against worse opponents is pointless. A weaker opponent will lose to the strong build most of the time, even if they know it's coming. So to mix it up against them, while good, isn't really that effective. Mixing it up against a strong opponent keeps them playing honest and not being able to cut too many corners, which a good opponent is much more likely to take advantage of if presented the opportunity. As it is, if you've watched two games of Innovation, you've basically seen his play style. Every Terran's PlaystyleI really think if you want a good example of a seriously amazing Terran to learn from you need to look at MvP. If you want to look for a strong safe ladder build, look at Innovation. You make it sound like it's only innovation that plays this way. Every terran plays the same build every single time, 3 cc, 2 ebay, rally and win or die trying. Of course there are tiny slight variants, some might open reaper instead of cc first, some may make 1 tank or something, some might go for a hellbat drop, but generally it's all the same, zergs do not really even need to scout, they know what is coming from pretty much any terran, not just innovation. He's the most infamous player for doing the same build every single TvZ. Not everyone else has that kind of reputation or is that popular and have that many broadcasted games to study from. Also are you really saying you don't ever see Terrans deviate from the normal 3cc build or do you only watch Innovation games? What you don't understand is that if you want to deviate, you have to use inferior builds which thus up put you in an inferior position. If you struggle to win with the most optimal build, what will happen when you use an inferior one? I still think that having a few "slightly weak builds" is better than to have one strong build. At least after the strong one is figured out, which always end up happening.
Now I don't say Innovation wasn't right doing mainly his strong build, he had actually an insane winrate. But now if he's getting beaten and his build figured out, I guess the answer is to find a few other builds, even if they're weaker.
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Innovation so disappointing... :/
also lol at super and anyone who believed he could make it
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welp.... Innovation has officially given up his throne. It was fun while it lasted =(
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Russian Federation40169 Posts
Missed results. WHAT!? NEVERDIES_OO! Also, yay jjakji, best TvZ in da world confirmed. Also, so after reading recap it looks like Innovation went on his favorite tilt mode.
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On September 28 2013 00:05 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:22 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 23:21 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 23:15 AxionSteel wrote:On September 27 2013 23:08 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:49 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:40 vthree wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote: I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Like he has a choice? Tier 3 Terran is still a huge joke. Tanks are a joke with fast mutas. Mech is counter by swarm hosts and vipers. I guess he can try more 11-11s? Just putting together a tight mid game build that he occasionally deviates to would make him scary as shit. More raxes instead of a 3rd CC, 2 factory helions or even banshee builds. How can you expect to play against people who know your build off by heart. Upgrades, expansion timing, the reaper and hellion timing and the 2 medivac push timing is going to be expected against him every game, because he does it every game. Seriously, if the guy did this build 75% of the time instead of 100% he doesn't 2 rax, people would actually have to do something other than being able to blind counter him. Bogus did change his builds a bit, but the problem is that you can only go so far when your only versatility comes from the number of reactors your fact can make for other buildings. 2-bases timings (2 fact BFH, Marines/Hellions/Medivacs, Hellbats/Marauders, etc.) are all bad against correct Zerg reaction; he does play them a bit from time to time, but mostly against inferior opponents. It's definitely not the build you want to play against a competent opponent when your Code S slot in on the line; praying your opponent doesn't sac an over is too much of a gamble at this level. I'm sorry that makes no sense at all. Doing the same build against stronger opponents and mixing it up against worse opponents is pointless. A weaker opponent will lose to the strong build most of the time, even if they know it's coming. So to mix it up against them, while good, isn't really that effective. Mixing it up against a strong opponent keeps them playing honest and not being able to cut too many corners, which a good opponent is much more likely to take advantage of if presented the opportunity. As it is, if you've watched two games of Innovation, you've basically seen his play style. Every Terran's PlaystyleI really think if you want a good example of a seriously amazing Terran to learn from you need to look at MvP. If you want to look for a strong safe ladder build, look at Innovation. You make it sound like it's only innovation that plays this way. Every terran plays the same build every single time, 3 cc, 2 ebay, rally and win or die trying. Of course there are tiny slight variants, some might open reaper instead of cc first, some may make 1 tank or something, some might go for a hellbat drop, but generally it's all the same, zergs do not really even need to scout, they know what is coming from pretty much any terran, not just innovation. He's the most infamous player for doing the same build every single TvZ. Not everyone else has that kind of reputation or is that popular and have that many broadcasted games to study from. Also are you really saying you don't ever see Terrans deviate from the normal 3cc build or do you only watch Innovation games? What you don't understand is that if you want to deviate, you have to use inferior builds which thus up put you in an inferior position. If you struggle to win with the most optimal build, what will happen when you use an inferior one? I still think that having a few "slightly weak builds" is better than to have one strong build. At least after the strong one is figured out, which always end up happening. Now I don't say Innovation wasn't right doing mainly his strong build, he had actually an insane winrate. But now if he's getting beaten and his build figured out, I guess the answer is to find a few other builds, even if they're weaker. It's not the build which is figured out, it's Zergs overall refining their lings/banes/mutas play (and transitions) against 4M. Triple OC builds are unquestionably the best setup for 4M agression; weaker builds such as 2-bases timings are not threatening for Zerg since they can start with their core build (gasless 4 queens third or 3 queens + speedlings third), then deviate accordingly upon scouting Terran isn't going triple OC. The built-in flexibility (due to the combination of larvae and an insignificant infrastructure cost) of Zerg builds makes it so it's mostly futile to play weaker builds, since you will simply end up with a weakened midgame position in the end if Zerg scouts and reacts correctly.
When Terran wants to play CC rax rax CC in TvP, for instance, they have to commit to the build. Once they start the construction of the third CC, their production infrastructure will be delayed, their bio tech will be delayed too; there are things you simply won't defend even if you scout it, simply because the build you chose doesn't allow you to (2-bases 5g blink comes to mind, e. g. Bogus vs Zest, Derelict Watcher, Asia Finals Qualifier). When Zerg takes a third in TvZ, it's different: taking a third doesn't delay their production, quite on the contrary it enhances it; they don't have to fully use their third economy-wise, they can reactively choose how many drones they will get there based upon their over poke/scout (they can even search the 100/100 overlord speed upgrade to have full vision of Terran's base, and know absolutely for sure what they're up too). For instance, they will tone down their droning to ~60-65 to defend a Terran timing, then resume drone production once they're safe; while the Terran cannot suddenly build 10 Marauders to defend the 5g blink and will pay the price for his delayed production.
I don't know if I'm explaining things as clearly as I would like, but basically the versatility of 3 hatch builds renders weaker Terran builds practically pointless against correct Zerg play. Bomber is someone who does use such suboptimal builds quite often, for instance his 2011 CS timing in TvZ he used against Scarlett on Bel'shir Vestige or Jaedong against Whirlwind. Those two times it worked because neither Scarlett nor Jaedong scouted it, but had they done so his Marine poke would have been met with a swarm of Zerglings and he would have been left behind in the dark wondering if Zerg is droning again or threatening a Baneling bust. All those weaker builds are a gamble in TvZ because they rely on Zerg not scouting them and playing in autopilot. Neither Dimaga nor Yugioh had any problems deflecting Flash's Hellbats/Marauders timing in Dreamhack, for instance, following the simple pattern scout → deviate accordingly → remain ahead. This is why triple OC builds are the undisputed standard, because other stuff will backfire quite badly most of the time.
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On September 28 2013 00:49 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2013 00:05 samurai80 wrote:On September 27 2013 23:22 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 23:21 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 23:15 AxionSteel wrote:On September 27 2013 23:08 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:49 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:40 vthree wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote: I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Like he has a choice? Tier 3 Terran is still a huge joke. Tanks are a joke with fast mutas. Mech is counter by swarm hosts and vipers. I guess he can try more 11-11s? Just putting together a tight mid game build that he occasionally deviates to would make him scary as shit. More raxes instead of a 3rd CC, 2 factory helions or even banshee builds. How can you expect to play against people who know your build off by heart. Upgrades, expansion timing, the reaper and hellion timing and the 2 medivac push timing is going to be expected against him every game, because he does it every game. Seriously, if the guy did this build 75% of the time instead of 100% he doesn't 2 rax, people would actually have to do something other than being able to blind counter him. Bogus did change his builds a bit, but the problem is that you can only go so far when your only versatility comes from the number of reactors your fact can make for other buildings. 2-bases timings (2 fact BFH, Marines/Hellions/Medivacs, Hellbats/Marauders, etc.) are all bad against correct Zerg reaction; he does play them a bit from time to time, but mostly against inferior opponents. It's definitely not the build you want to play against a competent opponent when your Code S slot in on the line; praying your opponent doesn't sac an over is too much of a gamble at this level. I'm sorry that makes no sense at all. Doing the same build against stronger opponents and mixing it up against worse opponents is pointless. A weaker opponent will lose to the strong build most of the time, even if they know it's coming. So to mix it up against them, while good, isn't really that effective. Mixing it up against a strong opponent keeps them playing honest and not being able to cut too many corners, which a good opponent is much more likely to take advantage of if presented the opportunity. As it is, if you've watched two games of Innovation, you've basically seen his play style. Every Terran's PlaystyleI really think if you want a good example of a seriously amazing Terran to learn from you need to look at MvP. If you want to look for a strong safe ladder build, look at Innovation. You make it sound like it's only innovation that plays this way. Every terran plays the same build every single time, 3 cc, 2 ebay, rally and win or die trying. Of course there are tiny slight variants, some might open reaper instead of cc first, some may make 1 tank or something, some might go for a hellbat drop, but generally it's all the same, zergs do not really even need to scout, they know what is coming from pretty much any terran, not just innovation. He's the most infamous player for doing the same build every single TvZ. Not everyone else has that kind of reputation or is that popular and have that many broadcasted games to study from. Also are you really saying you don't ever see Terrans deviate from the normal 3cc build or do you only watch Innovation games? What you don't understand is that if you want to deviate, you have to use inferior builds which thus up put you in an inferior position. If you struggle to win with the most optimal build, what will happen when you use an inferior one? I still think that having a few "slightly weak builds" is better than to have one strong build. At least after the strong one is figured out, which always end up happening. Now I don't say Innovation wasn't right doing mainly his strong build, he had actually an insane winrate. But now if he's getting beaten and his build figured out, I guess the answer is to find a few other builds, even if they're weaker. It's not the build which is figured out, it's Zergs overall refining their lings/banes/mutas play (and transitions) against 4M. Triple OC builds are unquestionably the best setup for 4M agression; weaker builds such as 2-bases timings are not threatening for Zerg since they can start with their core build (gasless 4 queens third or 3 queens + speedlings third), then deviate accordingly upon scouting Terran isn't going triple OC. The built-in flexibility (due to the combination of larvae and an insignificant infrastructure cost) of Zerg builds makes it so it's mostly futile to play weaker builds, since you will simply end up with a weakened midgame position in the end if Zerg scouts and reacts correctly. When Terran wants to play CC rax rax CC in TvP, for instance, they have to commit to the build. Once they start the construction of the third CC, their production infrastructure will be delayed, their bio tech will be delayed too; there are things you simply won't defend even if you scout it, simply because the build you chose doesn't allow you to (2-bases 5g blink comes to mind, e. g. Bogus vs Zest, Derelict Watcher, Asia Finals Qualifier). When Zerg takes a third in TvZ, it's different: taking a third doesn't delay their production, quite on the contrary it enhances it; they don't have to fully use their third economy-wise, they can reactively choose how many drones they will get there based upon their over poke/scout (they can even search the 100/100 overlord speed upgrade to have full vision of Terran's base, and know absolutely for sure what they're up too). For instance, they will tone down their droning to ~60-65 to defend a Terran timing, then resume drone production once they're safe; while the Terran cannot suddenly build 10 Marauders to defend the 5g blink and will pay the price for his delayed production. I don't know if I'm explaining things as clearly as I would like, but basically the versatility of 3 hatch builds renders weaker Terran builds practically pointless against correct Zerg play. Bomber is someone who does use such suboptimal builds quite often, for instance his 2011 CS timing in TvZ he used against Scarlett on Bel'shir Vestige or Jaedong against Whirlwind. Those two times it worked because neither Scarlett nor Jaedong scouted it, but had they done so his Marine poke would have been met with a swarm of Zerglings and he would have been left behind in the dark wondering if Zerg is droning again or threatening a Baneling bust. All those weaker builds are a gamble in TvZ because they rely on Zerg not scouting them and playing in autopilot. Neither Dimaga nor Yugioh had any problems deflecting Flash's Hellbats/Marauders timing in Dreamhack, for instance, following the simple pattern scout → deviate accordingly → remain ahead. This is why triple OC builds are the undisputed standard, because other stuff will backfire quite badly most of the time. wait what, a quality comment in my LR thread? get outta here
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I don't care if innovation has been losing games this couple of weeks, I'm still a fan. I just think it's still have to do with stress from switching teams (which caused him to drop of WCS S2 finals).
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Man, Innovation was one game away from going 4-0, then he bet it all on the wrong color. Keeping it interesting! Can this be where Flash surpasses Innovation (even if just for a minute)!?
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On September 28 2013 00:05 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:22 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 23:21 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 23:15 AxionSteel wrote:On September 27 2013 23:08 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:49 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:40 vthree wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote: I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Like he has a choice? Tier 3 Terran is still a huge joke. Tanks are a joke with fast mutas. Mech is counter by swarm hosts and vipers. I guess he can try more 11-11s? Just putting together a tight mid game build that he occasionally deviates to would make him scary as shit. More raxes instead of a 3rd CC, 2 factory helions or even banshee builds. How can you expect to play against people who know your build off by heart. Upgrades, expansion timing, the reaper and hellion timing and the 2 medivac push timing is going to be expected against him every game, because he does it every game. Seriously, if the guy did this build 75% of the time instead of 100% he doesn't 2 rax, people would actually have to do something other than being able to blind counter him. Bogus did change his builds a bit, but the problem is that you can only go so far when your only versatility comes from the number of reactors your fact can make for other buildings. 2-bases timings (2 fact BFH, Marines/Hellions/Medivacs, Hellbats/Marauders, etc.) are all bad against correct Zerg reaction; he does play them a bit from time to time, but mostly against inferior opponents. It's definitely not the build you want to play against a competent opponent when your Code S slot in on the line; praying your opponent doesn't sac an over is too much of a gamble at this level. I'm sorry that makes no sense at all. Doing the same build against stronger opponents and mixing it up against worse opponents is pointless. A weaker opponent will lose to the strong build most of the time, even if they know it's coming. So to mix it up against them, while good, isn't really that effective. Mixing it up against a strong opponent keeps them playing honest and not being able to cut too many corners, which a good opponent is much more likely to take advantage of if presented the opportunity. As it is, if you've watched two games of Innovation, you've basically seen his play style. Every Terran's PlaystyleI really think if you want a good example of a seriously amazing Terran to learn from you need to look at MvP. If you want to look for a strong safe ladder build, look at Innovation. You make it sound like it's only innovation that plays this way. Every terran plays the same build every single time, 3 cc, 2 ebay, rally and win or die trying. Of course there are tiny slight variants, some might open reaper instead of cc first, some may make 1 tank or something, some might go for a hellbat drop, but generally it's all the same, zergs do not really even need to scout, they know what is coming from pretty much any terran, not just innovation. He's the most infamous player for doing the same build every single TvZ. Not everyone else has that kind of reputation or is that popular and have that many broadcasted games to study from. Also are you really saying you don't ever see Terrans deviate from the normal 3cc build or do you only watch Innovation games? What you don't understand is that if you want to deviate, you have to use inferior builds which thus up put you in an inferior position. If you struggle to win with the most optimal build, what will happen when you use an inferior one? I still think that having a few "slightly weak builds" is better than to have one strong build. At least after the strong one is figured out, which always end up happening. Now I don't say Innovation wasn't right doing mainly his strong build, he had actually an insane winrate. But now if he's getting beaten and his build figured out, I guess the answer is to find a few other builds, even if they're weaker.
This doesn't make much sense. Zergs are still playing the same comp 90% of the time (ling, bling, muta) vs 4M. If it was a composition hard counter, then maybe changing styles help. But since 4M was made to counter ling, bling, mutas, not sure if changing his style will help. The best he can try to do it coin flip timings that he hopes doesn't get scouted.
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JJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJAKJIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!
Yes! Kinda glad Innovation isn't there too. Now someone new actually has a chance. yes!
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Innovation is sooooooooO overrated
Edit: Glad to see soO making it to the ro8
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