[Code S] Ro16 Group C WCS KR GSL Season 3 2013 - Page 73

On September 27 2013 23:24 boxerfred wrote:


And that's a hidden one, like whispering to your bro "omg that pussy, he's feelin' insulted LOL" .

On September 27 2013 23:24 TheDwf wrote:

TL calendar says it's in one day and 14 hours, is it a mistake?

On September 27 2013 23:26 robson1 wrote:


You're amazing.

On September 27 2013 23:02 boxerfred wrote:


That's a one-sided way to read my post, since I pointed out that I'm still a Life fan, though he's not that good at this point. Are started being a Life fan when the ZenEX team kind-of-joined with Startale. The same goes for HerO, I'm a HerO-fan since I am watching SC2. Of course you're totally right about Innovation, as I said, I jumped the train.

I can only say what my experience is - and my experience is that I do want my favourite players to win! If they don't, after a longer time (and I guess you can consider half a year, or, let's say a year as a long time in SC2), I feel disappointed. And if they're not compensating their slump with e.g. a nice personality, some interesting interviews, fan interaction, showmatches, playing funmaps on stream, what-fucking-ever-they-can-even-pull-an-apollo-god-dammit - there will be a point where I do not enjoy watching them anymore. I clearly am NOT a superfan. As many people are. And if the person you really like doesn't do well, and you see that he's not losing to the next long-term dominating guy, but to the next guy who'll be top notch 'only' for 1-3 months and then fall apart (or even flukes as Sniper's code S win..), then I don't get the idea of cheering for anyone anymore, if it's not for personality.

If you read my words, I'm clearly saying that I'm whining about the general lack of consistency, and NOT about my favourites getting stomped or losing or whatever. Check the WCS Global Finals from S1 to S2 to the upcoming S3, there are a lot of different players. You would expect out of 8 players that at least 50% will make it back, wouldn't you? I don't think that this was the case so far (didn't check my facts on that, maybe I'm wrong).
If you compare the Ro8's of each tournament to their predecessors, you will find even more variation. And I am simply saying that I do not like that. If you like it, it's okay for me - but I do not like it, so I will definitely reduce the amount of viewing tournaments. Let's say, I'll become a casual SC2 viewer, not a "oh fuck I have to work but it's Code S so I just hope I can sneak a peak into the stream and at least follow the LR".

tl;dr I don't disagree with what you say and explain why.

On September 27 2013 23:28 bo1b wrote:

Political correctness is the most retarded thing sometimes.

On September 27 2013 22:59 -Celestial- wrote:


Which "Terran Dark Ages" are these? That Mvp apparently had to "save the race" from?

You mean the Dark Ages of 2010 when Terran consistently had comparable numbers or more in the GSL Open Seasons as other races?

The Dark Ages of 2011 GOMTvT?

Or perhaps the Dark Ages of 2012 where, despite Broodlord/Infestor winning through and helping Zerg to take most of the titles, Terran had more players in Code S every season than either Protoss or Zerg?


Argue about whether or not the mine changes they're planning on testing out are warranted or not all you like. But stop trying to play the victim.

On September 27 2013 23:21 haffy wrote:


He's the most infamous player for doing the same build every single TvZ. Not everyone else has that kind of reputation or is that popular and have that many broadcasted games to study from. Also are you really saying you don't ever see Terrans deviate from the normal 3cc build or do you only watch Innovation games?

On September 27 2013 23:22 TheDwf wrote:

What you don't understand is that if you want to deviate, you have to use inferior builds which thus up put you in an inferior position. If you struggle to win with the most optimal build, what will happen when you use an inferior one?

On September 28 2013 00:05 samurai80 wrote:

I still think that having a few "slightly weak builds" is better than to have one strong build. At least after the strong one is figured out, which always end up happening.

Now I don't say Innovation wasn't right doing mainly his strong build, he had actually an insane winrate. But now if he's getting beaten and his build figured out, I guess the answer is to find a few other builds, even if they're weaker.

On September 28 2013 00:49 TheDwf wrote:

It's not the build which is figured out, it's Zergs overall refining their lings/banes/mutas play (and transitions) against 4M. Triple OC builds are unquestionably the best setup for 4M agression; weaker builds such as 2-bases timings are not threatening for Zerg since they can start with their core build (gasless 4 queens third or 3 queens + speedlings third), then deviate accordingly upon scouting Terran isn't going triple OC. The built-in flexibility (due to the combination of larvae and an insignificant infrastructure cost) of Zerg builds makes it so it's mostly futile to play weaker builds, since you will simply end up with a weakened midgame position in the end if Zerg scouts and reacts correctly.

When Terran wants to play CC rax rax CC in TvP, for instance, they have to commit to the build. Once they start the construction of the third CC, their production infrastructure will be delayed, their bio tech will be delayed too; there are things you simply won't defend even if you scout it, simply because the build you chose doesn't allow you to (2-bases 5g blink comes to mind, e. g. Bogus vs Zest, Derelict Watcher, Asia Finals Qualifier). When Zerg takes a third in TvZ, it's different: taking a third doesn't delay their production, quite on the contrary it enhances it; they don't have to fully use their third economy-wise, they can reactively choose how many drones they will get there based upon their over poke/scout (they can even search the 100/100 overlord speed upgrade to have full vision of Terran's base, and know absolutely for sure what they're up too). For instance, they will tone down their droning to ~60-65 to defend a Terran timing, then resume drone production once they're safe; while the Terran cannot suddenly build 10 Marauders to defend the 5g blink and will pay the price for his delayed production.

I don't know if I'm explaining things as clearly as I would like, but basically the versatility of 3 hatch builds renders weaker Terran builds practically pointless against correct Zerg play. Bomber is someone who does use such suboptimal builds quite often, for instance his 2011 CS timing in TvZ he used against Scarlett on Bel'shir Vestige or Jaedong against Whirlwind. Those two times it worked because neither Scarlett nor Jaedong scouted it, but had they done so his Marine poke would have been met with a swarm of Zerglings and he would have been left behind in the dark wondering if Zerg is droning again or threatening a Baneling bust. All those weaker builds are a gamble in TvZ because they rely on Zerg not scouting them and playing in autopilot. Neither Dimaga nor Yugioh had any problems deflecting Flash's Hellbats/Marauders timing in Dreamhack, for instance, following the simple pattern scout → deviate accordingly → remain ahead. This is why triple OC builds are the undisputed standard, because other stuff will backfire quite badly most of the time.

On September 28 2013 00:05 samurai80 wrote:

I still think that having a few "slightly weak builds" is better than to have one strong build. At least after the strong one is figured out, which always end up happening.

Now I don't say Innovation wasn't right doing mainly his strong build, he had actually an insane winrate. But now if he's getting beaten and his build figured out, I guess the answer is to find a few other builds, even if they're weaker.