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On September 27 2013 22:50 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:47 robson1 wrote:
yada yada yada. Terran imba weak.
2013:
Premier tournament wins Terran: 10
Second places in premier tournaments: 3
final appearances: 13
Premier Tournament wins Protoss: 3
Second places in premier tournaments: 7
final appearances: 10
Premier tournament wins Zerg: 5
Second places in premier tournaments: 6
Final appearances: 11
u have to realize , there were some terran nerf inbetween and more nerfs incoming soon, terran was rlly strong before the hellbat nerf cant compare whole 2013 to what it is now -.-
Since July
Terran won 4 premier tournaments and got 1 second place
Zerg won 2 premier tournaments and got 3 second places
Protoss got 2 second places
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WTF I stopped watching after soO vs Super game because I thought it would be a sure win vs Inno.
How the fuck did this happened?
can someone summarize for me?
edit:
LR reports are not updated so can anyone summarize what happened for me please?
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France19747 Posts
On September 27 2013 22:49 haffy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:40 vthree wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote:
I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Like he has a choice? Tier 3 Terran is still a huge joke. Tanks are a joke with fast mutas. Mech is counter by swarm hosts and vipers. I guess he can try more 11-11s? Just putting together a tight mid game build that he occasionally deviates to would make him scary as shit. More raxes instead of a 3rd CC, 2 factory helions or even banshee builds. How can you expect to play against people who know your build off by heart. Upgrades, expansion timing, the reaper and hellion timing and the 2 medivac push timing is going to be expected against him every game, because he does it every game. Seriously, if the guy did this build 75% of the time instead of 100% he doesn't 2 rax, people would actually have to do something other than being able to blind counter him.
Bogus did change his builds a bit, but the problem is that you can only go so far when your only versatility comes from the number of reactors your fact can make for other buildings. 2-bases timings (2 fact BFH, Marines/Hellions/Medivacs, Hellbats/Marauders, etc.) are all bad against correct Zerg reaction; he does play them a bit from time to time, but mostly against inferior opponents. It's definitely not the build you want to play against a competent opponent when your Code S slot in on the line; praying your opponent doesn't sac an over is too much of a gamble at this level.
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On September 27 2013 22:49 NicksonReyes wrote:
BW Terran was so imba 4 of the 5 bonjwas are terran.
As a terran in both BW and SC2 i gotta say. Terran was definitely imba in BW. It was just nearly impossible to play up to the infinite potential that Terran had. In SC2 I think it's safe to say, that overall the korean terran dominated for most of the time, except 2012 second half, which was the time of broodfestor.
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On September 27 2013 22:54 SamirDuran wrote:
WTF I stopped watching after soO vs Super game because I thought it would be a sure win vs Inno.
How the fuck did this happened?
can someone summarize for me?
edit:
LR reports are not updated so can anyone summarize what happened for me please?
1st game Inno's scouting hellions missed Soo's roach bane and lost.
2nd game Soo > Inno standard macro game.
On September 27 2013 22:56 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:49 NicksonReyes wrote:
BW Terran was so imba 4 of the 5 bonjwas are terran. As a terran in both BW and SC2 i gotta say. Terran was definitely imba in BW.
OK.
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Australia18228 Posts
Predicted everything right except for the last one 
Though INnoVation would beat soO
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On September 27 2013 22:34 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:32 Nomzter wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote:
I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Honestly I didnt think Terran could be boring to watch, but then Innovation happened, should be a fun Ro8  Acer is the new EG, sadly..
Nope, it is not. One swallow doesn't make a summer.
And these results, god damn.
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France19747 Posts
On September 27 2013 22:50 NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:49 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:44 bo1b wrote:On September 27 2013 22:42 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:38 TeeTS wrote:On September 27 2013 22:33 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:18 bo1b wrote:
This is the same person who thinks having a separate hotkey for marines/marauders in order to stutter step without losing medivac healing is too hard.
He might be the most amazing player in the universe, but his bias is insane. Oh, hadn't seen this one. How about you go laddering a bit with Terran, and experiment by yourself what happens when you try to manage 3 control groups in a fight lasting 3-4 seconds on average—all while splitting Marines and apparently targetting with Mines, something not even the Code S Terrans manage to do at once despite having 500-550 apm at peaks during engagements? I'm sure you'll do all of this so much better. the thing is, there are several reasons you normally want your medivacs right above the bio. If you put them on a different control group you might get more healing, but they are exposed if you kite back, you lose the option to insta pick up. I rather lose a bit of healing than lose a couple of medivacs or are unable to pick up and leave if nessecary. Plus you don't even need Medivacs on their own groups to micro them away from Marines; what I do, when I want to hit & run without Medivacs dancing awkwardly with Marines, is simply ctrl-click Medivacs, boost them away behind my Marines, and ctrl-click Marines to hit & run. I'm sure I'm not the only one doing that. Then why are you saying that its so hard to have medivacs not in your army control group? Just bizarre. Double click on sc2.exe, F2, 1v1 Terran and you'll figure it out why by yourself once you're familiar with Terran micro in TvZ engagements. I actually have them seperated, but I guess I am not on INnoVations level ^_-
Yeah, but you're the next Terran bonjwa so it doesn't count. NarutO 2014 I believe.
ByuN also plays with Medivacs on their own group, from memory, but I have noticed on this stream how it slows down his play to be forced to add them to their own hotkey at each round of production.
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On September 27 2013 22:38 dreamseller wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:31 AxionSteel wrote:On September 27 2013 22:27 klup wrote:
But honnestly i don't see how terran can get rid of 4M with the dominance of mutas in this matchup. Mines are one soft counter for mutas and besides thor that can be magicboxed really easily there are no answer in the terran arsenal to mass mutas as protoss have with phenix. yeh i think that's as big a reason as any why the zerg win percentage has gone way up, really heavy mutalisk styles are coming in, upwords of 30. It's so hard to hold expansions in the late game vs so many mutas. I know people have always been going mutas in hots, but maybe not quite so many as they are getting these days. Correct. Zergs used to try to get away with hive behind 10-20 mutas, while the right approach is to mass as many mutas as possible (naturally you can go Hive earlier if the previous engagements went well, as soO did for instance this game) to defend Terran's pushes and then rampage his bases when he's stretched thin after taking his fourth. I note a complete absence of a solid counter argument to this, which makes me fearful that you are right and the nerfs put Terran back to the dark ages. Mvp is in no shape to save the race these days
Which "Terran Dark Ages" are these? That Mvp apparently had to "save the race" from?
You mean the Dark Ages of 2010 when Terran consistently had comparable numbers or more in the GSL Open Seasons as other races?
The Dark Ages of 2011 GOMTvT?
Or perhaps the Dark Ages of 2012 where, despite Broodlord/Infestor winning through and helping Zerg to take most of the titles, Terran had more players in Code S every season than either Protoss or Zerg?
Argue about whether or not the mine changes they're planning on testing out are warranted or not all you like. But stop trying to play the victim.
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On September 27 2013 22:57 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:54 SamirDuran wrote:
WTF I stopped watching after soO vs Super game because I thought it would be a sure win vs Inno.
How the fuck did this happened?
can someone summarize for me?
edit:
LR reports are not updated so can anyone summarize what happened for me please? 1st game Inno's scouting hellions missed Soo's roach bane and lost. 2nd game Soo > Inno standard macro game. Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:56 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 22:49 NicksonReyes wrote:
BW Terran was so imba 4 of the 5 bonjwas are terran. As a terran in both BW and SC2 i gotta say. Terran was definitely imba in BW. OK.
thanks kabayan!
I really want to see bogus go down but I'd never see it right now; maybe next time
thanks again
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On September 27 2013 22:57 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +
As a terran in both BW and SC2 i gotta say. Terran was definitely imba in BW.
OK.
Well if you just cut out the explanation it's not true ofc. But there is a reason why the SC bonjwas were terrans. Terran had the overall best winrates, most champions, the most dominant players. It was just so hard to play terran in BW, that very few could get close to mastering it. Also KeSPA made sure to put in some zerg/toss favored maps.
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On September 27 2013 22:28 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:23 boxerfred wrote:On September 27 2013 22:19 myminerals wrote:On September 27 2013 22:15 boxerfred wrote:
okay, I'll stop rooting for individual players. there's no consistency at all (that means, that a pro is at least a year top notch, god dammit!), except for symbol. no wait..
i'll just quit watching sc2. not having fun anymore, and since fun and entertainment is the only real reason for me to watch the game instead of playing it, that should be enough as a justification. There is no a single consistent player in SC2 these days. There are many good players, but noone truly dominates. I'd say Taeja, but he got really good only recently and who knows for how long. Yep, that's the point! I mean, you can either love a guy for his personality, or for his playstyle, or for his pure skill. Maybe I forgot another criteria, so remind me of it if it comes to your mind. so, where in korea do you find a player with personality apart from MC and two or three more? And with personality, I do not mean failing a champagne pull at dreamhack, or saying "cheer for me" in bad english. I am sure those korean players do have a personality of course, but since they're not showing it, I can't choose any of them. So, let's now go for playstyle - I loved Life's ling micro (beginning of HotS, MLG Life vs Flash...aaaawww, I loved that series), and I enjoy his aggressive style. That's why I am a Life fan. But I do not get to see much of him lately.. or let's say, nothing motivating. For Protoss, I went for LiquidHerO, because HerOvZ is just fun. Storm drops all the way, I remember matches on Entombed Valley vs, I think, Curious? Not sure. But hey, he's at least kind-of consistent in reaching WCS AM ro8's - no, wait. So my last pick of favs was Innovation, I completely jumped on the hype train and was stunned by his TvZ performance. Okay, it seems to be over now. So what to do, repick? Lolno. Hey you guys. I'm only a fan if you're doing amazingly well right at this second. If you're not I don't care anymore. Since my "favorites" are not good right now, i'll stop watching Sc2 at all. 
That's a one-sided way to read my post, since I pointed out that I'm still a Life fan, though he's not that good at this point. Are started being a Life fan when the ZenEX team kind-of-joined with Startale. The same goes for HerO, I'm a HerO-fan since I am watching SC2. Of course you're totally right about Innovation, as I said, I jumped the train.
I can only say what my experience is - and my experience is that I do want my favourite players to win! If they don't, after a longer time (and I guess you can consider half a year, or, let's say a year as a long time in SC2), I feel disappointed. And if they're not compensating their slump with e.g. a nice personality, some interesting interviews, fan interaction, showmatches, playing funmaps on stream, what-fucking-ever-they-can-even-pull-an-apollo-god-dammit - there will be a point where I do not enjoy watching them anymore. I clearly am NOT a superfan. As many people are. And if the person you really like doesn't do well, and you see that he's not losing to the next long-term dominating guy, but to the next guy who'll be top notch 'only' for 1-3 months and then fall apart (or even flukes as Sniper's code S win..), then I don't get the idea of cheering for anyone anymore, if it's not for personality.
If you read my words, I'm clearly saying that I'm whining about the general lack of consistency, and NOT about my favourites getting stomped or losing or whatever. Check the WCS Global Finals from S1 to S2 to the upcoming S3, there are a lot of different players. You would expect out of 8 players that at least 50% will make it back, wouldn't you? I don't think that this was the case so far (didn't check my facts on that, maybe I'm wrong).
If you compare the Ro8's of each tournament to their predecessors, you will find even more variation. And I am simply saying that I do not like that. If you like it, it's okay for me - but I do not like it, so I will definitely reduce the amount of viewing tournaments. Let's say, I'll become a casual SC2 viewer, not a "oh fuck I have to work but it's Code S so I just hope I can sneak a peak into the stream and at least follow the LR".
tl;dr I don't disagree with what you say and explain why.
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On September 27 2013 22:54 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:50 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:47 robson1 wrote:
yada yada yada. Terran imba weak.
2013:
Premier tournament wins Terran: 10
Second places in premier tournaments: 3
final appearances: 13
Premier Tournament wins Protoss: 3
Second places in premier tournaments: 7
final appearances: 10
Premier tournament wins Zerg: 5
Second places in premier tournaments: 6
Final appearances: 11
u have to realize , there were some terran nerf inbetween and more nerfs incoming soon, terran was rlly strong before the hellbat nerf cant compare whole 2013 to what it is now -.- Since July Terran won 4 premier tournaments and got 1 second place Zerg won 2 premier tournaments and got 3 second places Protoss got 2 second places
how about you look in the situation right now?? how many terrans we got in wcs eu ro8, and innovation the best TvZer loosing tvz left and right lately
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France19747 Posts
On September 27 2013 22:54 SamirDuran wrote:
WTF I stopped watching after soO vs Super game because I thought it would be a sure win vs Inno.
How the fuck did this happened?
can someone summarize for me?
edit:
LR reports are not updated so can anyone summarize what happened for me please?
Game 1: Bogus' Hellions were out of position when soO's Roach/Baneling bust marched on the map, so he saw the bust too late and didn't have enough time to react.
Game 2: Bogus killed soO's fourth with his four first Medivacs, but lost an engagement afterwards and didn't connect his reinforcements with his fleeing Medivacs, resulting in losing several of them (one of which was full of Marines). soO was able to counter in his natural, dealing some damage, and then Bogus couldn't stop soO from teching ultras, and was caught with full Marines (only one lab rax) against 8 ultras a few minuts later.
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On September 27 2013 23:02 Killmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:54 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 22:50 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:47 robson1 wrote:
yada yada yada. Terran imba weak.
2013:
Premier tournament wins Terran: 10
Second places in premier tournaments: 3
final appearances: 13
Premier Tournament wins Protoss: 3
Second places in premier tournaments: 7
final appearances: 10
Premier tournament wins Zerg: 5
Second places in premier tournaments: 6
Final appearances: 11
u have to realize , there were some terran nerf inbetween and more nerfs incoming soon, terran was rlly strong before the hellbat nerf cant compare whole 2013 to what it is now -.- Since July Terran won 4 premier tournaments and got 1 second place Zerg won 2 premier tournaments and got 3 second places Protoss got 2 second places how about you look in the situation right now?? how many terrans we got in wcs eu ro8, and innovation the best TvZer loosing tvz left and right lately
Would you f*ing look at this chart:
http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=Filter
Innovation is 8-2 in his last 10 TvZs
Innovation is also 7-3 in his last 10 Korean TvZs
http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=KR&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=Filter
WcS Eu has a pretty weak terran lineup with MVP being waaaaay past his prime and hindered by the online lag. Foreigner Terrans always always always struggled. I think only MMA and ForGG were solid candidates for a Ro8 finish. MvP is way past his prime. Lucifron is slumping right now... the rest of the field is just not that impressive.
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On September 27 2013 22:54 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:49 haffy wrote:On September 27 2013 22:40 vthree wrote:On September 27 2013 22:30 Douillos wrote:
I can understand the disappointment but still... Innovation has been doing the same fuckin' thing for weeks. He is the main reason I almost no longer watch sc2. Fast 3 base into 4M rally point EVERY... FUCKIN.. TIME!
So people are beating the most PREDICTABLE player ever? Well it's about fuckin' time. Like he has a choice? Tier 3 Terran is still a huge joke. Tanks are a joke with fast mutas. Mech is counter by swarm hosts and vipers. I guess he can try more 11-11s? Just putting together a tight mid game build that he occasionally deviates to would make him scary as shit. More raxes instead of a 3rd CC, 2 factory helions or even banshee builds. How can you expect to play against people who know your build off by heart. Upgrades, expansion timing, the reaper and hellion timing and the 2 medivac push timing is going to be expected against him every game, because he does it every game. Seriously, if the guy did this build 75% of the time instead of 100% he doesn't 2 rax, people would actually have to do something other than being able to blind counter him. Bogus did change his builds a bit, but the problem is that you can only go so far when your only versatility comes from the number of reactors your fact can make for other buildings. 2-bases timings (2 fact BFH, Marines/Hellions/Medivacs, Hellbats/Marauders, etc.) are all bad against correct Zerg reaction; he does play them a bit from time to time, but mostly against inferior opponents. It's definitely not the build you want to play against a competent opponent when your Code S slot in on the line; praying your opponent doesn't sac an over is too much of a gamble at this level.
I'm sorry that makes no sense at all. Doing the same build against stronger opponents and mixing it up against worse opponents is pointless. A weaker opponent will lose to the strong build most of the time, even if they know it's coming. So to mix it up against them, while good, isn't really that effective.
Mixing it up against a strong opponent keeps them playing honest and not being able to cut too many corners, which a good opponent is much more likely to take advantage of if presented the opportunity. As it is, if you've watched two games of Innovation, you've basically seen his play style.
I really think if you want a good example of a seriously amazing Terran to learn from you need to look at MvP. If you want to look for a strong safe ladder build, look at Innovation.
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Oh wow I went to ladder after jjakji beat Innovation. Too bad for me. Altough I really like Bogus I can be just happy for jjakji. He used to get so much shit for winning GSL.
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France19747 Posts
On September 27 2013 23:06 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:02 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 22:50 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:47 robson1 wrote:
yada yada yada. Terran imba weak.
2013:
Premier tournament wins Terran: 10
Second places in premier tournaments: 3
final appearances: 13
Premier Tournament wins Protoss: 3
Second places in premier tournaments: 7
final appearances: 10
Premier tournament wins Zerg: 5
Second places in premier tournaments: 6
Final appearances: 11
u have to realize , there were some terran nerf inbetween and more nerfs incoming soon, terran was rlly strong before the hellbat nerf cant compare whole 2013 to what it is now -.- Since July Terran won 4 premier tournaments and got 1 second place Zerg won 2 premier tournaments and got 3 second places Protoss got 2 second places how about you look in the situation right now?? how many terrans we got in wcs eu ro8, and innovation the best TvZer loosing tvz left and right lately Would you f*ing look at this chart: http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterInnovation is 8-2 in his last 10 TvZs Innovation is also 7-3 in his last 10 Korean TvZs http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=KR&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=Filter
This is why quoting statistics alone is bad, you have to look at the content too.
What does Bogus vs HyuN, Star Station, ATC tells us about standard macro TvZ? Nothing since it was a 6 minuts proxy 12/12. What does Bogus vs HyuN, Newkirk, ATC tells us about standard macro TvZ? Nothing since it was a 1/1 Speedroaches timing (which ended up being defensive since Bogus went a timing too) into a 4-bases lings/banes/roaches bust.
What does Bogus vs Gamja, Polar Night, ATC tells us about standard macro TvZ? Again nothing since Gamja played lings/banes/roaches too.
Bogus vs Jaedong perhaps then? Started with Roach/Baneling bust both times from memory.
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On September 27 2013 23:06 robson1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 23:02 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:54 robson1 wrote:On September 27 2013 22:50 Killmouse wrote:On September 27 2013 22:47 robson1 wrote:
yada yada yada. Terran imba weak.
2013:
Premier tournament wins Terran: 10
Second places in premier tournaments: 3
final appearances: 13
Premier Tournament wins Protoss: 3
Second places in premier tournaments: 7
final appearances: 10
Premier tournament wins Zerg: 5
Second places in premier tournaments: 6
Final appearances: 11
u have to realize , there were some terran nerf inbetween and more nerfs incoming soon, terran was rlly strong before the hellbat nerf cant compare whole 2013 to what it is now -.- Since July Terran won 4 premier tournaments and got 1 second place Zerg won 2 premier tournaments and got 3 second places Protoss got 2 second places how about you look in the situation right now?? how many terrans we got in wcs eu ro8, and innovation the best TvZer loosing tvz left and right lately Would you f*ing look at this chart: http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=all&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterInnovation is 8-2 in his last 10 TvZs Innovation is also 7-3 in his last 10 Korean TvZs http://www.aligulac.com/players/48/results/?after=&before=&race=z&country=KR&bestof=all&offline=both&game=all&op=FilterWcS Eu has a pretty weak terran lineup with MVP being waaaaay past his prime and hindered by the online lag. Foreigner Terrans always always always struggled. I think only MMA and ForGG were solid candidates for a Ro8 finish. MvP is way past his prime. Lucifron is slumping right now... the rest of the field is just not that impressive.
http://www.aligulac.com/reports/balance/
look at the terran performance chart, its been on the decline the whole time, and its only till august, september will be way worse, and terran still gets nerfed in the end, so i guess terran is imba?
btw innovation 1 -2 month ago wouldnt loose a single serie vs zerg(mayb vs sk, and bo1), now he lost 3 series in september, for me thats "loosing left and right" in comparison to inno tvzs some months ago
and stop insulting plz..
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On September 27 2013 22:59 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2013 22:38 dreamseller wrote:On September 27 2013 22:36 TheDwf wrote:On September 27 2013 22:31 AxionSteel wrote:On September 27 2013 22:27 klup wrote:
But honnestly i don't see how terran can get rid of 4M with the dominance of mutas in this matchup. Mines are one soft counter for mutas and besides thor that can be magicboxed really easily there are no answer in the terran arsenal to mass mutas as protoss have with phenix. yeh i think that's as big a reason as any why the zerg win percentage has gone way up, really heavy mutalisk styles are coming in, upwords of 30. It's so hard to hold expansions in the late game vs so many mutas. I know people have always been going mutas in hots, but maybe not quite so many as they are getting these days. Correct. Zergs used to try to get away with hive behind 10-20 mutas, while the right approach is to mass as many mutas as possible (naturally you can go Hive earlier if the previous engagements went well, as soO did for instance this game) to defend Terran's pushes and then rampage his bases when he's stretched thin after taking his fourth. I note a complete absence of a solid counter argument to this, which makes me fearful that you are right and the nerfs put Terran back to the dark ages. Mvp is in no shape to save the race these days Which "Terran Dark Ages" are these? That Mvp apparently had to "save the race" from? You mean the Dark Ages of 2010 when Terran consistently had comparable numbers or more in the GSL Open Seasons as other races? The Dark Ages of 2011 GOMTvT? Or perhaps the Dark Ages of 2012 where, despite Broodlord/Infestor winning through and helping Zerg to take most of the titles, Terran had more players in Code S every season than either Protoss or Zerg? Argue about whether or not the mine changes they're planning on testing out are warranted or not all you like. But stop trying to play the victim.
Allow me to pull this around for you. According to your argumentation right now there is no Terran dominance, because in WCS Korea, Terran is the least representated race.
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EPT
