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On August 08 2013 02:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:02 Zenbrez wrote:On August 08 2013 01:59 Big J wrote:On August 08 2013 01:56 DJHelium wrote: The best thing about the void rays is that you don't have to target fire, they will kill the hydras first anyway. As soon as you see them targeting a roach, just activate them.
I don't think Tefel is reacting to this build in a good way, infestors would at least twice as good. I think people overestimate infestors for that. Fungal has been nerfed by 10damage vs armored and infestors are really expensive in the midgame. He would get at most 10infestors instead of the 30hydras he was working with. Imo, the way to go against this style is either blindcounter the third with an allin or sit on 4bases forever with hydra/viper/swarmhost/statics. Edit: fungal is still good vs void rays, but it's not affordable to deal with them in the midgame. You underestimate it. You don't need 10 infestors. You only use them for fungal, ITs are useless. Voidrays stack a loooot - sure he could split them, but lets be honest, nobody really does. Even having just 2 infestors, pinning them and dealing 50-60 dmg (since people generally overlap the fungals) to ALL of them is hugely significant. A pure hydra army won't do the job I don't think you should base your strategy on your opponent playing shit. Naniwa scouted a lot. Had he seen infestors, he would have surely presplit his army.
That's a bit unrealistic. That's like saying, "don't ever go for templars in PvT, the terran is good, he will split his bio."
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Norway25712 Posts
Kinda want MMA to win this, though I wouldn't mind Happy winning either. I just want both of them to make it through. MMA mostly though, so GO YOU.
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On August 08 2013 02:01 Apoteosis wrote: Wait, Naniwa being polite ?
WTH has happened to him ? He has developed a keen awareness for when a camera is pointed at him, documenting and broadcasting the things he says to the public.
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On August 08 2013 02:03 Exarl25 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:00 Lysanias wrote:On August 08 2013 01:59 Exarl25 wrote:On August 08 2013 01:57 Gojira621 wrote: naniwa made voids every single game and tefel whines balance despite the fact that he didnt make a single infestor or corruptors. what a joke You don't make Corruptors in that situation. This isn't WoL, Void Rays hard counter Corruptors. You need an overwhelming number to beat out VRs and against 3 SGs you aren't likely to get that. Wich is amusing and horribly wrong balanced, An anti air unit losing to a allround unit. Phoenix are an anti-air unit and lose to Corruptors. Trying to cement units into arbitrary roles is what is horrible. Corruptors do well against massive units, it's fine for them to lose to Void Rays when the Zerg has other options for dealing with them.
True, then again there are upgrades that give range increase and make Phoenix with some micro beat corrupters. Anyway better not discuss this here.
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I don't want to judge any balance in LotV. Its going to be probebly impossible to make a balanced game in the last addon.
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
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On August 08 2013 02:06 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:01 AgentW wrote:On August 08 2013 02:00 scypio wrote: Naniwa looked pretty good there, he adapted to Tefel's playstyle pretty well (apart from the throw in G1). What? It was much more Tefel NOT adapting to NaNiwa's play. Not a single infestor was built. Tefel has a story of sticking to his builds forever. He is unlikely to surprise anyone with building hydras, he just executes it well enough to get into wcs eu ro16. Naniwa on the other hand is known for coming up with new builds and he played differently vs Tefel today.
At least in the third game Tefel should have tried to go for an earlier Ling-Hydra push. It's actually possible to beat Nani's opening with that. But Tefel kept on doing his Roach-Hydra-push that came way too late to kill Naniwa.
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On August 08 2013 02:06 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:01 Apoteosis wrote: Wait, Naniwa being polite ?
WTH has happened to him ? He has developed a keen awareness for when a camera is pointed at him, documenting and broadcasting the things he says to the public.
I don't know, his twitter still seems to be full Nani
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please make it both out of the group. no need to nerf toss! everything's fine! HAPPY MMA HAPPY MMA! gogo
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On August 08 2013 02:06 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:04 Thallis wrote:On August 08 2013 02:02 Panozen wrote:On August 08 2013 02:00 Lysanias wrote:On August 08 2013 01:59 Exarl25 wrote:On August 08 2013 01:57 Gojira621 wrote: naniwa made voids every single game and tefel whines balance despite the fact that he didnt make a single infestor or corruptors. what a joke You don't make Corruptors in that situation. This isn't WoL, Void Rays hard counter Corruptors. You need an overwhelming number to beat out VRs and against 3 SGs you aren't likely to get that. Wich is amusing and horribly wrong balanced, An anti air unit losing to a allround unit. Do Corruptors actually beat anything air straight up? (not counting Msc/Oracle etc) Phoenix, Colossus, Carriers, Tempest. Why would you a-move your Tempest into Corruptors. There's no other way you're gonna lose Tempests to Corruptors if you have some archons underneath, though.
You'd obviously have a ground army as well to deal with his.
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On August 08 2013 02:06 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:04 Gojira621 wrote:On August 08 2013 02:01 Undead1993 wrote: actually just a simple question, is someone really enjoying this after game analysis stuff by apollo? i mean it's not apollo's fault but i feel like this is unnecessary its cool but it makes the broadcasts unnecessarily long. I know they have no control over how long each game is, but it seems like there is so much time between games sometimes in WCS and I simply can't just sit here and watch an entire 4 or 5 hour broadcast where it feels like 2 hours of that is the guys at the desk, videos, analysis, etc. well they don't have commercials to run like typical sports events and you can't just run game after game after game... i think most people want some downtime to go to the bathroom, make lunch, occupy their brains with things other than starcraft for a little bit...
Espeacially after HasuObs games. But maybe they could find something else for the segment.
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On August 08 2013 02:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:02 Zenbrez wrote:On August 08 2013 01:59 Big J wrote:On August 08 2013 01:56 DJHelium wrote: The best thing about the void rays is that you don't have to target fire, they will kill the hydras first anyway. As soon as you see them targeting a roach, just activate them.
I don't think Tefel is reacting to this build in a good way, infestors would at least twice as good. I think people overestimate infestors for that. Fungal has been nerfed by 10damage vs armored and infestors are really expensive in the midgame. He would get at most 10infestors instead of the 30hydras he was working with. Imo, the way to go against this style is either blindcounter the third with an allin or sit on 4bases forever with hydra/viper/swarmhost/statics. Edit: fungal is still good vs void rays, but it's not affordable to deal with them in the midgame. You underestimate it. You don't need 10 infestors. You only use them for fungal, ITs are useless. Voidrays stack a loooot - sure he could split them, but lets be honest, nobody really does. Even having just 2 infestors, pinning them and dealing 50-60 dmg (since people generally overlap the fungals) to ALL of them is hugely significant. A pure hydra army won't do the job I don't think you should base your strategy on your opponent playing shit. Naniwa scouted a lot. Had he seen infestors, he would have surely presplit his army. Tefel should have just played the swarm host turtle. That's the way to beat those air armies, make yourself invulnerable to anything that isn't mass colossus and then pick of stuff with vipers. My point wasn't that LOL FUNGAL OWN STACKED VOIDS, it was moreso that infestors do certainly help vs that composition. He went mass hydra everygame, and it never worked (unless Naniwa made a critically bad decision, game 1). Swarm host would have also been a good decision, I agree.
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On August 08 2013 02:02 Panozen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:00 Lysanias wrote:On August 08 2013 01:59 Exarl25 wrote:On August 08 2013 01:57 Gojira621 wrote: naniwa made voids every single game and tefel whines balance despite the fact that he didnt make a single infestor or corruptors. what a joke You don't make Corruptors in that situation. This isn't WoL, Void Rays hard counter Corruptors. You need an overwhelming number to beat out VRs and against 3 SGs you aren't likely to get that. Wich is amusing and horribly wrong balanced, An anti air unit losing to a allround unit. Do Corruptors actually beat anything air straight up? (not counting Msc/Oracle etc) Your army of corrupters can beat a smaller army of corrupters from your enemy!
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On August 08 2013 02:05 Larkin wrote: MMA's hair is sick. Koreans always have the best hair
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On August 08 2013 02:03 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:00 Cinim wrote: Well, you cant blame that all on voidrays, but anyone has to be an outright fool to not agree with the fact that voidrays are really strong. They aren't just strong because of more damage since WoL, but because of the fact that voidrays are currently the only air units that don't require any micro skills whatsoever, making them insanely easy to use. Naniwa had DECENT force fields, but nothing that impressive honestly, especially considering that he only had to micro the sentries.
Naniwa didn't play that much better, and if voidrays were "fixed" it would certainly be a lot closer. TL:DR Void rays are strong, mostly because they don't require any micro. Obvious solution is to bring back flux vanes. :p It's hard for voids to require micro because they're slow air units, same as tempests or broods or corruptors or vikings or BCs.
Vikings require a lot more micro, because they are created as a fragile unit that dies very easily. Corrupters, due to the units the other races have, are required to always be split quite a lot, tempest needs a lot of micro due to being so expensive, and to utilize their long range. Broods requires you to micro really well with other units to support them. BCs might be the same, they probably need some changes as well.
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On August 08 2013 02:04 Waise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:03 scypio wrote:On August 08 2013 02:01 Waise wrote:On August 08 2013 01:59 VisonKai wrote:On August 08 2013 01:57 Abominous wrote:On August 08 2013 01:56 KristofferAG wrote: Gimme dem KeSPA chat rules pls.
Yeah, god forbid some drama occurs. But drama sucks nooooo!!! srsly people, something has to make these kinds of games interesting. I enjoyed this series because of the backstory of it and the reactions, even thuogh the games were mediocre at best. so if the players aren't upset and don't dislike each other the game is boring? why would i be happy for the players to be unhappy? they're human beings it's not boring, it's fine when the game can stand on its own even if two nonames played it. But a bit of story / drama to spice things up is most welcome. so again: you think it's "welcome" if the players are upset or unhappy? you are free to have that opinion, man, but i don't consider other people's emotions my entertainment...
Player being happy/sad after a won/lost game helps to channel emotions to the viewer (me). I like to see that the game actually matters to them.
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On August 08 2013 02:04 Gojira621 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:01 Undead1993 wrote: actually just a simple question, is someone really enjoying this after game analysis stuff by apollo? i mean it's not apollo's fault but i feel like this is unnecessary its cool but it makes the broadcasts unnecessarily long. I know they have no control over how long each game is, but it seems like there is so much time between games sometimes in WCS and I simply can't just sit here and watch an entire 4 or 5 hour broadcast where it feels like 2 hours of that is the guys at the desk, videos, analysis, etc. I like it a lot, yeah. Don't have a super specific reason, just makes it feel more complete to me.
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On August 08 2013 02:06 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:05 Big J wrote:On August 08 2013 02:02 Zenbrez wrote:On August 08 2013 01:59 Big J wrote:On August 08 2013 01:56 DJHelium wrote: The best thing about the void rays is that you don't have to target fire, they will kill the hydras first anyway. As soon as you see them targeting a roach, just activate them.
I don't think Tefel is reacting to this build in a good way, infestors would at least twice as good. I think people overestimate infestors for that. Fungal has been nerfed by 10damage vs armored and infestors are really expensive in the midgame. He would get at most 10infestors instead of the 30hydras he was working with. Imo, the way to go against this style is either blindcounter the third with an allin or sit on 4bases forever with hydra/viper/swarmhost/statics. Edit: fungal is still good vs void rays, but it's not affordable to deal with them in the midgame. You underestimate it. You don't need 10 infestors. You only use them for fungal, ITs are useless. Voidrays stack a loooot - sure he could split them, but lets be honest, nobody really does. Even having just 2 infestors, pinning them and dealing 50-60 dmg (since people generally overlap the fungals) to ALL of them is hugely significant. A pure hydra army won't do the job I don't think you should base your strategy on your opponent playing shit. Naniwa scouted a lot. Had he seen infestors, he would have surely presplit his army. That's a bit unrealistic. That's like saying, "don't ever go for templars in PvT, the terran is good, he will split his bio." i sort of agree with you, and yet korean players are literally so good that this is sort of how it ends up working... 10 minute build order games over and over in major tournaments
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On August 08 2013 02:08 Kleinmuuhg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2013 02:02 Panozen wrote:On August 08 2013 02:00 Lysanias wrote:On August 08 2013 01:59 Exarl25 wrote:On August 08 2013 01:57 Gojira621 wrote: naniwa made voids every single game and tefel whines balance despite the fact that he didnt make a single infestor or corruptors. what a joke You don't make Corruptors in that situation. This isn't WoL, Void Rays hard counter Corruptors. You need an overwhelming number to beat out VRs and against 3 SGs you aren't likely to get that. Wich is amusing and horribly wrong balanced, An anti air unit losing to a allround unit. Do Corruptors actually beat anything air straight up? (not counting Msc/Oracle etc) Your army of corrupters can beat a smaller army of corrupters from your enemy! Great and deep insight! I'm writing this one down.
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