On August 08 2013 01:57 Gojira621 wrote: naniwa made voids every single game and tefel whines balance despite the fact that he didnt make a single infestor or corruptors. what a joke
You don't make Corruptors in that situation. This isn't WoL, Void Rays hard counter Corruptors. You need an overwhelming number to beat out VRs and against 3 SGs you aren't likely to get that.
Wich is amusing and horribly wrong balanced, An anti air unit losing to a allround unit.
Do Corruptors actually beat anything air straight up? (not counting Msc/Oracle etc)
i haven't tried it, but i would guess phoenixes and carriers?
Even without charge Voids can still go toe-to-toe with corrupters, and with charge they can take them on 3 to 1. When 3-3-3 air was all the rage in Hots beta corrupters was obviously the first response zerg tried, even some pure corrupter army got crushed. Corrupters are good for taking out colossi, and countering mass phoenix nothing more. (They do smash carriers into the ground but a toss would only go carriers vs Z if the game was already won, or they're White-Ra).
On August 08 2013 02:00 scypio wrote: Naniwa looked pretty good there, he adapted to Tefel's playstyle pretty well (apart from the throw in G1).
What? It was much more Tefel NOT adapting to NaNiwa's play. Not a single infestor was built.
Tefel has a story of sticking to his builds forever. He is unlikely to surprise anyone with building hydras, he just executes it well enough to get into wcs eu ro16.
Naniwa on the other hand is known for coming up with new builds and he played differently vs Tefel today.
Naniwa doesn't adapt to peoples builds either though. See Leenock vs Naniwa MLG. He has a long history, and has admitted himself to simply executing his set build order and not necessarily responding to his opponent.
On August 08 2013 01:57 Gojira621 wrote: naniwa made voids every single game and tefel whines balance despite the fact that he didnt make a single infestor or corruptors. what a joke
You don't make Corruptors in that situation. This isn't WoL, Void Rays hard counter Corruptors. You need an overwhelming number to beat out VRs and against 3 SGs you aren't likely to get that.
Wich is amusing and horribly wrong balanced, An anti air unit losing to a allround unit.
Do Corruptors actually beat anything air straight up? (not counting Msc/Oracle etc)
Your army of corrupters can beat a smaller army of corrupters from your enemy!
On August 08 2013 02:00 Cinim wrote: Well, you cant blame that all on voidrays, but anyone has to be an outright fool to not agree with the fact that voidrays are really strong. They aren't just strong because of more damage since WoL, but because of the fact that voidrays are currently the only air units that don't require any micro skills whatsoever, making them insanely easy to use. Naniwa had DECENT force fields, but nothing that impressive honestly, especially considering that he only had to micro the sentries.
Naniwa didn't play that much better, and if voidrays were "fixed" it would certainly be a lot closer. TL:DR Void rays are strong, mostly because they don't require any micro.
Obvious solution is to bring back flux vanes. :p
It's hard for voids to require micro because they're slow air units, same as tempests or broods or corruptors or vikings or BCs.
Vikings require a lot more micro, because they are created as a fragile unit that dies very easily. Corrupters, due to the units the other races have, are required to always be split quite a lot, tempest needs a lot of micro due to being so expensive, and to utilize their long range. Broods requires you to micro really well with other units to support them. BCs might be the same, they probably need some changes as well.
What's the difference in corruptors having to split and vrs having to split? Just building the damn infestors .
On August 08 2013 02:01 Undead1993 wrote: actually just a simple question, is someone really enjoying this after game analysis stuff by apollo? i mean it's not apollo's fault but i feel like this is unnecessary
its cool but it makes the broadcasts unnecessarily long. I know they have no control over how long each game is, but it seems like there is so much time between games sometimes in WCS and I simply can't just sit here and watch an entire 4 or 5 hour broadcast where it feels like 2 hours of that is the guys at the desk, videos, analysis, etc.
well they don't have commercials to run like typical sports events and you can't just run game after game after game... i think most people want some downtime to go to the bathroom, make lunch, occupy their brains with things other than starcraft for a little bit...
Espeacially after HasuObs games. But maybe they could find something else for the segment.
There is always some downtime between games and matches. I really like it when they show the facial expressions of the end of the game or of important points in the game in the downtime. The analysis desk isn't too bad either. It's not perfect but I rather see that than skyscrapers
On August 08 2013 01:56 DJHelium wrote: The best thing about the void rays is that you don't have to target fire, they will kill the hydras first anyway. As soon as you see them targeting a roach, just activate them.
I don't think Tefel is reacting to this build in a good way, infestors would at least twice as good.
I think people overestimate infestors for that. Fungal has been nerfed by 10damage vs armored and infestors are really expensive in the midgame. He would get at most 10infestors instead of the 30hydras he was working with.
Imo, the way to go against this style is either blindcounter the third with an allin or sit on 4bases forever with hydra/viper/swarmhost/statics.
Edit: fungal is still good vs void rays, but it's not affordable to deal with them in the midgame.
You underestimate it. You don't need 10 infestors. You only use them for fungal, ITs are useless. Voidrays stack a loooot - sure he could split them, but lets be honest, nobody really does. Even having just 2 infestors, pinning them and dealing 50-60 dmg (since people generally overlap the fungals) to ALL of them is hugely significant. A pure hydra army won't do the job
I don't think you should base your strategy on your opponent playing shit. Naniwa scouted a lot. Had he seen infestors, he would have surely presplit his army.
That's a bit unrealistic. That's like saying, "don't ever go for templars in PvT, the terran is good, he will split his bio."
Just look at the numbers... Tefel had ~30hydralisks. Now if he goes infestors as well he immidiatly misses 5 of them (infestation pit + energy upgrade) for the tech and 3 for each infestor he builds due to the gas being the limiting factor. The remaining army will be mostly zerglings with 10 hydras and 5 infestors. That's simply not enough.
You don't have to be split perfectly, just having an arc in which not more than 5 voidrays get fungaled at once (there are only 5fungals) will be enough to hold.
On August 08 2013 01:57 Gojira621 wrote: naniwa made voids every single game and tefel whines balance despite the fact that he didnt make a single infestor or corruptors. what a joke
You don't make Corruptors in that situation. This isn't WoL, Void Rays hard counter Corruptors. You need an overwhelming number to beat out VRs and against 3 SGs you aren't likely to get that.
Wich is amusing and horribly wrong balanced, An anti air unit losing to a allround unit.
Do Corruptors actually beat anything air straight up? (not counting Msc/Oracle etc)
Your army of corrupters can beat a smaller army of corrupters from your enemy!
I think you just figured out the metagame.
if i saw a corruptor in zvz i would probably get so confused that i would have to quit and go splash cold water on my face
On August 08 2013 01:58 arterian wrote: Naniwa with the F Bomb
Only a north american would care about that to be honest
Only Europeans would make such a big deal about how big of a deal F bombs are in America. Seriously, more than ten of you guys have already commented on how much Europe doesn't care about cursing. Think it's enough?
On August 08 2013 01:57 Gojira621 wrote: naniwa made voids every single game and tefel whines balance despite the fact that he didnt make a single infestor or corruptors. what a joke
You don't make Corruptors in that situation. This isn't WoL, Void Rays hard counter Corruptors. You need an overwhelming number to beat out VRs and against 3 SGs you aren't likely to get that.
Wich is amusing and horribly wrong balanced, An anti air unit losing to a allround unit.
Do Corruptors actually beat anything air straight up? (not counting Msc/Oracle etc)
Your army of corrupters can beat a smaller army of corrupters from your enemy!
I think you just figured out the metagame.
if i saw a corruptor in zvz i would probably get so confused that i would have to quit and go splash cold water on my face
EPT
.
