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On August 10 2013 20:20 OfficeBrahzz wrote:truly makes me angry... this MASSIVELY incredible skill required game... .. so hard to be the best at this game... takes so much mental fortitude sacrifice to be this good at sc2... these dang dota players like dendi getting 150,000 stream watchers earlier today maru deserves 300,000 stream watchers maru could easily in about 5-6 weeks completely learn dota and perform at dendi's level. dendi would never ever achieve anything near a ro16 in a korean starleague even with years of practice im sure LoL / Dota players practice alot and that too takes sacrifice i guess my point is... being good in sc2 shows i believe some other essence of the mind... a type of mental fortitude... you can practice for years and never get this good... its truly just an essence .... maybe a "god given skill" that you are simply born with and you can never train and i guess if you view it in that regard i guess its not as "impressive" in that regard because it would be like watching a 6foot dude beat up a 4feet tall dude... the 6foot guy was simply born with his natural innate abilities... no amount of training would allow the 4foot dude to win the fight... so i dont know i guess when i view it that way my belief that sc2 is a showing / competition of "something more" than just practice time might really downplay the greatness of winning a OSL because really your just winning with your innate natural talents that no one can train to achieve. Of course you need to train harder than everyone else and combine that training with your god given talent to win, i guess my point was someone without the god given talent will never be able to beat someone with the god given talent who trains alot, no matter how much the person without the god given talent tries. i dont know what the hell im saying lol... but dayum its fun to watch too bad more people dont realize the impressiveness of it  i and 30,000 ppl just saw a boy wonder become champion of a incredible test of mental power.... but 150,000 people watched dendi throw hooks with pudge earlier today but i guess i shouldnt be so sad... i think the last MLG sc2 numbers topped out at 100,000 for some of the high profile games so... i guess maybe im overreacting a little everyone is asleep now
Well considering your arguments, why don't we play BW instead?
But seriously, different people have different taste, and casuals like what they like.
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Select's case was more about not knowing what to do than not being able to do it, which means that his problem was definetely not a mechanical one, at some point in dota's learning curve experience and teamwork (which are intertwined skills), starts counting a lot more than the so called "micro skills" because pretty much everyone is at a similar level regarding those (whilst, for instance, MKP, Byun and Maru to name a few are leaps and bounds ahead micro wise)
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On August 10 2013 21:28 Thrillz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 20:20 OfficeBrahzz wrote:truly makes me angry... this MASSIVELY incredible skill required game... .. so hard to be the best at this game... takes so much mental fortitude sacrifice to be this good at sc2... these dang dota players like dendi getting 150,000 stream watchers earlier today maru deserves 300,000 stream watchers maru could easily in about 5-6 weeks completely learn dota and perform at dendi's level. dendi would never ever achieve anything near a ro16 in a korean starleague even with years of practice im sure LoL / Dota players practice alot and that too takes sacrifice i guess my point is... being good in sc2 shows i believe some other essence of the mind... a type of mental fortitude... you can practice for years and never get this good... its truly just an essence .... maybe a "god given skill" that you are simply born with and you can never train and i guess if you view it in that regard i guess its not as "impressive" in that regard because it would be like watching a 6foot dude beat up a 4feet tall dude... the 6foot guy was simply born with his natural innate abilities... no amount of training would allow the 4foot dude to win the fight... so i dont know i guess when i view it that way my belief that sc2 is a showing / competition of "something more" than just practice time might really downplay the greatness of winning a OSL because really your just winning with your innate natural talents that no one can train to achieve. Of course you need to train harder than everyone else and combine that training with your god given talent to win, i guess my point was someone without the god given talent will never be able to beat someone with the god given talent who trains alot, no matter how much the person without the god given talent tries. i dont know what the hell im saying lol... but dayum its fun to watch too bad more people dont realize the impressiveness of it i and 30,000 ppl just saw a boy wonder become champion of a incredible test of mental power.... but 150,000 people watched dendi throw hooks with pudge earlier today but i guess i shouldnt be so sad... i think the last MLG sc2 numbers topped out at 100,000 for some of the high profile games so... i guess maybe im overreacting a little everyone is asleep now Well considering your arguments, why don't we play BW instead? But seriously, different people have different taste, and casuals like what they like.
SC2 seems like a casual-friendly game to any average BW gamer. Hell I've played a lot of War3 and I myself have always found SC2 very casual and easy to play.
You're always someone else's "casual".
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 10 2013 21:31 DustbinBieber wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2013 21:28 Thrillz wrote:On August 10 2013 20:20 OfficeBrahzz wrote:truly makes me angry... this MASSIVELY incredible skill required game... .. so hard to be the best at this game... takes so much mental fortitude sacrifice to be this good at sc2... these dang dota players like dendi getting 150,000 stream watchers earlier today maru deserves 300,000 stream watchers maru could easily in about 5-6 weeks completely learn dota and perform at dendi's level. dendi would never ever achieve anything near a ro16 in a korean starleague even with years of practice im sure LoL / Dota players practice alot and that too takes sacrifice i guess my point is... being good in sc2 shows i believe some other essence of the mind... a type of mental fortitude... you can practice for years and never get this good... its truly just an essence .... maybe a "god given skill" that you are simply born with and you can never train and i guess if you view it in that regard i guess its not as "impressive" in that regard because it would be like watching a 6foot dude beat up a 4feet tall dude... the 6foot guy was simply born with his natural innate abilities... no amount of training would allow the 4foot dude to win the fight... so i dont know i guess when i view it that way my belief that sc2 is a showing / competition of "something more" than just practice time might really downplay the greatness of winning a OSL because really your just winning with your innate natural talents that no one can train to achieve. Of course you need to train harder than everyone else and combine that training with your god given talent to win, i guess my point was someone without the god given talent will never be able to beat someone with the god given talent who trains alot, no matter how much the person without the god given talent tries. i dont know what the hell im saying lol... but dayum its fun to watch too bad more people dont realize the impressiveness of it i and 30,000 ppl just saw a boy wonder become champion of a incredible test of mental power.... but 150,000 people watched dendi throw hooks with pudge earlier today but i guess i shouldnt be so sad... i think the last MLG sc2 numbers topped out at 100,000 for some of the high profile games so... i guess maybe im overreacting a little everyone is asleep now Well considering your arguments, why don't we play BW instead? But seriously, different people have different taste, and casuals like what they like. SC2 seems like a casual-friendly game to any average BW gamer. Hell I've played a lot of War3 and I myself have always found SC2 very casual and easy to play. You're always someone else's "casual".
And then someone who plays physical sports at a professional level calls all of that 'casual'.
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On August 10 2013 20:27 RiZu wrote:
I'll be surprised if he can get past Jim tbh. Taeja is probably the favorite to win WCS America.
Agreed, Jim will be very tough but he is the only one who I'd favour over Taeja considering how easily he seemed to win at Dreamhack.
I really didn't expect Maru to win this at all, or to even come this far. But a well deserved congratulations to him, I hope he can keep this up! Would be good for Prime (:
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United States23455 Posts
So by doing a quick run through of the "recommended games" polls, it looks like the last three games of the series are the ones worth watching?
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On August 10 2013 21:43 Darkhoarse wrote:
So by doing a quick run through of the "recommended games" polls, it looks like the last three games of the series are the ones worth watching?
they all were. it's a finals for god sakes
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On August 10 2013 21:43 Darkhoarse wrote:
So by doing a quick run through of the "recommended games" polls, it looks like the last three games of the series are the ones worth watching?
Last three games are overvoted by fanboys of TL.
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I just thought of something. That long break between games 2 and 3 must have messed up Rain and gave Maru time to collect himself.
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the hate ... sc2 and dota2 both likeable.
1. I like sc2 because its the game that requires the most individual skillz and sences. Its the hardest solo game ever invented. Therfore i admire sc2 players then dota2 players
2. Dota2 is fun because of the strategy side of the game. Creating a composition and utilizing this comp as a team. Less skill needed for dota2, but also more interesting comp. wise because there are 100 units to choose from and u need 5 units which results in hundreds of possible setups (i.e. more options then bio in tvp).
Both are darn entertaining games
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Go Terran, Prime and Maru! What an awesome result, and it was fantastic to see Maru with his family and team mates at the end there. Can't wait to see him play at the Season 2 finals.
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On August 10 2013 21:25 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +Its a much, much more complex and diverse game. I really would know where to start explaining it, but mechanically its leaps and bounds ahead. the community is an absolute joke when blatant exploits like in Na'Vi vs. TongFu game 3 are considered acceptable and a viable strategy. Two low level heroes being able to one shot a max level carry with full items and Aegis is considered allright and even cool.
Where do you get this? There are plenty of people in the Dota community complaining about this abuse that has been perfected by NaVi.
As an experienced Dota1 beta tester, I am still confused as to why Valve changed Pudge's Hook mechanics in Dota2.
On Topic:
So glad to see a win for Prime!!! They are one of my favorite teams.
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rain , killed by artosis curse xD
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51449 Posts
Optimus prime is back <3333
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4713 Posts
On August 10 2013 21:25 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +Its a much, much more complex and diverse game. I really would know where to start explaining it, but mechanically its leaps and bounds ahead. Dota 2 and the community is an absolute joke when blatant exploits like in Na'Vi vs. TongFu game 3 are considered acceptable and a viable strategy. Two low level heroes being able to one shot a max level carry with full items and Aegis is considered allright and even cool. It's a community where taking advantage of every bug or design failure is considered an achievement and a merit. Na'Vi have actually perfected the use of the bug exploit with their timings and the way the entire team starts pre-emptively falling back when they're trying it so that they don't get jumped on 5v4. I'm sure a lot of people started playing Dota 2 after seeing last night's games at TI3, but likewise a lot of people were completely turned off from the game as a whole. I found it disgusting. The balance in Starcraft 2 might be poor and it has all sorts of issues with volatility but atleast the wins are honest and even the dumbest cheese rushes both have a very high chance of failure and most importantly aren't based on bugged game design. We don't have threads discussing whether Maru beat Rain by cheating.
You my friend don't know what you are talking about, I play both SC2 and DotA, and I can tell you that the "issue" you perceive is not real, its an illusion or at the very least it is not even how drastic you see it. DoTA has a different take on the game, sure you could say certain heroes/combinations are overpowered vs other combinations, but its the same as saying storm is OP vs a Terran without any Ghost, or Colossus OP vs Zerg without Vipers/Corrupters, or vs no Vikings.
The truth of the matter is, games can be won or lost at the draft stage, where you are supposed to assemble a composition either very balanced in being able to perform well in all stages of the game, early, mid, late and end, (the equivalent of playing a macro game in SC2) or you build in such a way as to hit a timing at some stage of the game where you perceive you will be stronger then them (equivalent of doing an Immortal bust vs a greedy terran, eco cheese vs a passive toss or hit a pre-hive timing).
Na'vi found a a chink in the armor of TongFu, something they failed to account for, and punished them appropriately and I congratulate them, as much as I kid myself and hate cheese (because I lose to it), and act like playing and winning in long macro games is the honorable way to play (it generally is but not for the reasons you might think).
What matters in the end is winning, winning by any legal means, if you compete in a game and you don't play to win then you aren't a champion, if you let your false sense of honor bog you down you aren't a champion. Na'vi are champions they spotted a weakness and they exploited it mercilessly, so power to them, Mvp, when he 11/11 Raxed Squirtle in the last game of the final of GSL S2 2012 he proved beyond the shadow of a doubt he is still a champion.
In the end it is TongFu's fault for not drafting correctly and letting Na'vi get away with it.
Don't dare bring that balance talk bullshit here, the nerve. Too much attention is being placed by us the SC2 community on balanced, we forgot to have fun because of it, and we lost a lot of potentials for fun because of it. Instead of getting fun units we have to get balanced units. In BW no one complained reavers could 1 shot a mineral line with a good shot, or that storm could obliterate anything, or that siege lines where impossible to break, or that spider mines where the bane of any ground unit, or that dark swarm was "abusive".
People had fun with what they had, and more then that the game was fun to play and watch, in SC2 we can't have nice things, when we finally got speed boost on Medivacs to promote faster and funner games, and drops, people balance bitched, when we got widow mines in the game people cried like there was no tomorrow, we've gone so hardcore on balance that we forgot what fun was, we can't see the forest for the trees, we need units that can make big exciting plays, the pudge's, the pucks, the batriders and the storm spirits of of SC2, and right now, I'm not sure we have many of them, and with this toxic mentality we might never have them.
Now I've gone off topic way too much so I'll finish it off by saying.
TLDR Balance in DoTA is determined at the drafting stage where your picks determine what kind of game you want to play, timing, cheese, balanced, macro or end game, its on the teams to pick the best lineups and TongFu messed up and got punished. Grats to Na'vi for seeing that chink in their armor and having the balls and the champion spirit to exploit it.
And don't dare to try and bring a community vs community discussion into this, we all know any internet community of any kind has its fair share of toxicity.
On topic, congratulations to Maru for his superior mental fortitude, series planning and royal road OSL championship, stand proud and stand tall our new Optimus Prime!
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On August 10 2013 21:25 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +Its a much, much more complex and diverse game. I really would know where to start explaining it, but mechanically its leaps and bounds ahead. Dota 2 and the community is an absolute joke when blatant exploits like in Na'Vi vs. TongFu game 3 are considered acceptable and a viable strategy. Two low level heroes being able to one shot a max level carry with full items and Aegis is considered allright and even cool. It's a community where taking advantage of every bug or design failure is considered an achievement and a merit. Na'Vi have actually perfected the use of the bug exploit with their timings and the way the entire team starts pre-emptively falling back when they're trying it so that they don't get jumped on 5v4. I'm sure a lot of people started playing Dota 2 after seeing last night's games at TI3, but likewise a lot of people were completely turned off from the game as a whole. I found it disgusting. The balance in Starcraft 2 might be poor and it has all sorts of issues with volatility but atleast the wins are honest and even the dumbest cheese rushes both have a very high chance of failure and most importantly aren't based on bugged game design. We don't have threads discussing whether Maru beat Rain by cheating.
Sorry dude, but you don't know what you're talking about. TongFu lost that game because they didn't push their advantage. Alchemist was always going to beat a Doom and a Gyro late game as long as he could farm. And what do TongFu do? They have an almost insurmountable lead and they just spend 15 minutes stuffing around while Alchemist free farms.
But that's not really the point. You're talking about fountain hooks it as if its some sort of common strategy, and it isn't, simply because of how hard it is to pull off. I don't know how much you know about Dota, but playing Pudge at a professional level is no easy task. Pudge required patience and willingness to wait for the right opportunity. With fountain hooks, you cant wait. You have about a half a second window to pull the trigger. Its an EXTREMELY difficult strategy to pull off.
And you're calling it an exploit? Please... Its a high risk, high reward strat, no different than 6 pool v Protoss on a 4p map.
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At a young age a Terran prodigy cheeses out fan favorite players who are considered better than him to win a championship. This story sound familiar? :D
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On August 10 2013 22:16 Pandemona wrote:
Optimus prime is back <3333
Does that mean that Maru is going to leave Prime?
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
I always wonder where the KeSPA chatterboxes go when things don't go as planned
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EPT
